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I'm about to buy a 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan ES with these tires as standard. I live in the Philadelphia area, and the long-range forecast seems to indicate more foul weather this winter than has been the norm for the last few years. Naturally, I'd like to get the tires best suited to these conditions. I believe these tires are identical to the ones on the 2000 DC vans, so owners of these models may have something to say.
Also, I'm considering the 17" wheels and tire option. How does the snow performance differ with these, as opposed to the 16 inchers?
Thanks!
"Too much enthusiasm is a bad thing."
The Ford dealer can install Uniroyal Tiger Paws right away, or I can keep on waiting for Goodyear (unspecified but probably Wrangler). I haven't heard anything about the Tiger Paws. I expect the Goodyear to be OK but not great.
I have read some of the posts here and saw a lot of discussion about the Michelin. Are there any other tires I should consider? I really didn't want to have to deal with hauling my old tires to an authorized Firestone location and then file for a refund. However, if that's what I have to do to get the best tires in a reasonable amount of time, I will do it.
Thanks.
The Deathstone dealer put on Bridgestone Dueler HTs. The ride improvement was evident right away as was my wife's frame of mind.
Since we live in LA, I can't help you with the question of the HTs in snow conditions - we're lucky if we get a few inches of rain a year!
The Michelin LTXs on my son's '96 Explorer are probably a better tire and they also cost about $20-25 more per tire than the Duelers.
Either way, you'll be a lot safer just getting those Deathstones off your vehicle. Make sure you keep the new set at 32 psi.
Good luck.
think they made Snow tires(any more) in the
wake of All-Weather-Tires. I used to live where they were mandatory in November snow or no snow. I was thinking of getting a 4x4 anything for my travels to Chicago area. I got caught in a blizzard up that way, year before last without Snow tires and vowed to never to drive there again in the winter in my MPV (which handled well with my all-weathers, but I just did not feel comfortable)
Does anybody have experience with this company?
If you want real snow handling capacity, check out the Blizzak. It really performs in the snow -but you'll need two sets of tires come summer.
I spoke to a SUV owner yesterday in a parking lot that has the Bridgestone Dueler AT. He loved the tire and said it is quiet and smooth considering the agressive tread design.
Good luck with your decision.
Some of my "professional service" problems I've had over the years:
1. A Kaufmann tire franchise remounted a unidirectional tire being used as a spare on my wife's car, instead of simply moving it to the other side of the car and using the bi-directional tire on that side. (too dumb to figure out that one) No biggie, but shows that the person on the job didn't have much sense. She also told him she was worried about the tire disentigrating during the 50 miles or so she'd be using it till her regular wheel was repaired, otherwise she'd just use it temoprarily in the wrong direction. From what I have learned, the unidirectional function is for water removal/traction, not tire damage. He could have just said "it'll be ok for 50 miles", or simply remounted it on the proper side.
2. A Chevy pickup had tires from another vehicle mounted (and supposedly balanced) on it by Goodyear franchise. Truck vibrated severely. Goodyear franchise wasn't convenient, so I paid to have them rebalanced at a Firestone franchise. Tech informed me the tires were horrendously out of balance. Laughably so, he said. Tires were fine after that.
3. Reputable high end BMW shop worked on my wife's car and suggested rebalancing tires to fix a slight vibration at 48mph. Tires came back much worse. Vibrated at most speeds under 60mph. Hour drive each way BACK to shop. Rebalanced at no charge. Still vibrated. Now suddenly BMW shop tech says it's a bent wheel. For $30 removal/rebalance/remount fee and $175 wheel repair fee, they send our wheel off to be fixed. Wheel comes back, fixed. Tire is remounted and installed on car. Car STILL vibrates. Tech now claims we had "out of round" BF Goodrich tires all along. I wonder why he didn't notice the TIRE PROBLEM before we paid $205 for a "bent wheel" that we never seemed to notice when we bought the car and have never hit anything with(It did not vibrate for the first 8,000 miles). So much for professionals. Going to yet another "professional" to rebalance again and see if we need to buy new tires.
4. Dodge Ram. Bought new Dunlop (consumer reports top rated) tires. One wheel vibrated, was out of balance. Returned truck to independent shop (50 min drive each way, plus 30 minute wait there = $80 cost to me in lost business) They "rebalanced" tire. Tire still vibrated at 65mph+. Shop claimed it was a bad tire, but would not replace. Took truck to another shop and paid for re-balance. Tire was fine. Yet another brilliant example of tire "professionals" at work. (btw, on my 2nd visit I noticed that the guy doing their balancing HAD to be the guy who played the banjo in "DELIVERANCE"....meanwhile the owner and knowledgeable counter man lounged, joked and smoked in the front while deliverance-boy worked unsupervised....how professional!)
5. Got new tires for a S-10 pickup. Went to a shop my dad had used for 25 years. Made appointment, showed up on time, and ......4 hours later my tires were on! How professional! Oh yeah, I also stood in the misting rain for most of that time because their "lounge" consisted of two folding chairs in a closet-sized room, and two women were using that, and of course "for my safety" I wasn't allowed in the covered work area. Perhaps I wasn't allowed in there because they'd have had to hustle a little bit instead of resembling molasses.
6. New Toyota Tundra. You guessed it. It vibrated at highway speeds. Toyota dealer wanted me to leave it for a day to rebalance tires. Took it to a shop and paid, they fixed the problem in a few minutes. This one was nobody's fault, but is yet another case of basic things like tire balance taking two efforts to get right.
7. Wife's co-worker took his BMW in to get new tires. Name Brand tire shop scratched up his $2500 set of BBS wheels. Salesman said "yeah, that tech doesn't know what he's doing". When he approached the shop manager, he refused to fix his wheels. Only when he called over the salesman to restate his comments about the inept tech, did they pay to fix his wheels. $800 worth of damage was done.
8. The wheels on our used '97 BMW 540i have various gouges, pits, junk adhesive etc on them from being abused by tire techs over the years. I suppose the previous owners also had bad luck with their tire shops. One shop had even tried to use clamp on weights on BBS cross-spoke 17" wheels! How utterly "professional".
I owned about 6 different cars for about 15 years total before I ever had a single tire problem. Now every vehicle I own has them. This trend started in the early 90's just as our economy surged and high quality labor became scarce. I suggest that the problem isn't us customers, but a lack of proper training and dedication to excellence in the tire industry. Maybe if tire shop owners and managers would admit this instead of blaming the customers for being too demanding, things might get better.
If you wonder why some customers treat you like a jerk when they come in, maybe some of these prior experiences are the reason. They're tired of the incompetence. You may be good at your job, but many of your colleagues aren't. Not being mind-readers, these torque wrench-bearing customers have to assume you'll ruin their rotors. The odds say they're right.
There needs to be more people like us to watch and report these jokers so that they can't damage people's cars.
In most cases, the customer is usually right... sometimes!
BTW, Tireguy is gone from this board. He joined the Marines. He has not posted here in quite some time.
He puts the tire/wheel on the balancer and it spins. It stops with a HUGE number on it. It was driving fine when I came in with .75 ounce and .5 on the other side. He puts TWO weights (they didn't have one big enough one) on it, and spins it again. It comes up with another whopper! He takes off all the weights, and tries again. It comes up with another different number this time, and he starts putting on about 2.5 on one side, and another big hunk on the other when he spins it again.
I've done this as a job a long time ago, and I walk over and ask him "You know the machine is messed up don't you?" He looks at me like I'm nuts, and says "No!" Finally I convince him to put the wheel on there and run it a half dozen times. It came back with 5 different weights! Finally it dawns on him the balancer is messed up.
He says "It must have been messed up for a while, we have had a bunch of people come back this week!" Dohhhh!
Don't these places have a "test" tire or wheel to check out the machine? They should. Where I worked we had the guy come out and check them every 90 days or sooner if there was a problem.
Another bright move one guy working there made that day was when he lifted up a Dodge Ram quadcab 4x4 for an oil change, and it tried to fall off the lift! They will have to buy the guy one new nef bar, that was smashed a little when it caught it when it tried to fall off. Where I used to work an old late 70's Ford F150 fell off onto it's side, just missing an old lady who walked into the shop. It was a mess and so was she!! I thought there was an earthquake. It was like $2700 to fix wholesale with used parts! My boss had a huge tantrum, the moron who messed up was worried he's have to pay, and the rest of us just laughed.The F150's owner was a 16 year old kid, who we called at school. He ran over in about 30 seconds and actually cried when he saw it. He did drive it home though.
I watch the little goobers working in these places like a hawk..
The other problem I have had is with torquing lug nuts down. Last set of tires I had put on-by a franchise tire store-told the tech-use your torque wrench and set it at 80 foot pounds. My mistake-did not watch the guy-got home and they were over 130 foot pounds-my guesstimate. Luckily this did not bend my rotors. Next time I have to go to one of those places-my snap on torque wrench goes with me and I watch them torque the nuts down with my torque wrench. By the way-do not let them use torque sticks which are torque devices put on the end of an impact wrench. Had 2 rotors bent when the techs used those things.
Be very particular about who/whom you let touch your vehicle-the money you loose could be significant.
If I want the Duelers, I will probably have to get back in line at the Bridgestone/Firestone dealer since they wanted me to decide immediately.
Sam's can install Goodrich Long Trail T/A immediately. They may still have some Goodyear GSA left. The Ford dealer has Goodyear RTS (I have to get them pretty soon or they will go to the next person in line) or Uniroyal Tiger Paws.
I would rather wait for the Michelins, since actual consumer ratings put them above everything else. I would also rather have the AT tires. They are the equivalent replacement to the Wilderness AT tires I currently have, plus I expect them to give better handling in snow. In honesty though, I probably won't be going off road enough (if at all) to make them a necessity. More than anything, I really want to get this over with and have safe tires on my Explorer.
Given these choices, I am leaning toward the Goodrich Long Trail T/A. Not my top choice, but if it is safe and works well in snow I'll be better off than I am now.
If anyone has other comments, or suggestions for other tires to consider, I wouldn't mind hearing from them.
Thanks.
Those were some great stories on tire balancing (or should that be unbalancing?)
I have only found one tire store ever who used a "real" torque wrench to tighten the lug nuts.
One time, the goobs tightened the lugs with the impact gun so much, I couldn't get them off when I had a flat! I had to have my car towed in!
The place I go for tires now...Sams...uses the torque "sticks" on the impact gun...so maybe I will consider buying my own torque wrench as rec. Now I am wondering if the brake rotors I had to replace before...were due to these careless tire goobs?
Vern
I've been very happy so far with my new SS'20's. They are very quiet, have a smooth ride, and handle quite well. The tread rating was much better than any of the other tires I had to choose from as well. As long as they don't disintegrate, I'll be happy. I continue to believe that the Explorer has an inherent flaw in its suspension as no vehicle should roll over just because of a flat.
Thanks to all of you who offerred advice.
Vern
There are a huge number of vehicles on the rosd with the same basic suspension design. What is it, solid rear axle with leaf springs, upper and lower control arms with coils on the front? (pickup trucks and old sedans) Pretty simple and they all look the same.
Explorers drive and ride the same as other vehicles don't they? They don't go side ways down the road? They don't jump over mountains. So what is different about them?
The center of gravity. Obviously the Explorer has more weight in back than a pickup. Obviously the total weight is higher. So when a rear tire goes flat more of the weight which was held up by that rear tire is now trying to tip the vehicle over.
Get into squirrely vehicle motions with a flat and thats when the rollover happens.
This should be a concern for all SUVS. There is nothing unique in the Explorer suspension. Is this more of a problem for Explorers? Does data suggest this or is it just because of the scrutiny from the firestone tire situation?
- the same tires (model, size, etc.) of Firestone much more often had problems with Explorers, than when installed on other SUVs (was it Chevy Blazer?).
- That the tread separated on the rear-left tire of Explorers much more often, than on the three other tires.
- And, when this happens, Explorer is more prone to rollover.
According, I have an impression, that it can be not a inherent flaw in the basic design of Explorer or tires,, but some interplay of several deviations. Possible, they are:
- some some marginal imperfection with suspension (vehicle design problem),
- together with cheap tires, only marginally fit by design (C-rated for temperature, this is the federal minimum)
- of marginal build quality at particular plant,
- somewhat abused: marginally inflated tires, somewhat overloaded vehicle, run fast and long at
hot weather.
Of course, all of what I had read can turn to be wrong. It is too important to journalists to write simple stories - even if the oversimplification is misleading. Because the readers do not like reading anything complicated, and would not read. Additionally, newspapers and other mass-media have deadlines.
The majority of Explorers have Firestone's which Ford told owners to run at lower air pressure. The lower the air pressure, the hotter the tire, the more apt the vehicle is for a blowout. Had Ford told owners to run the tires at the proper pressure, the incidence of blowouts on a "C" rate tire would have been much lower. The majority of blowouts was on the driver's rear tire. Consumer Reports tested the Explorer by having a tire (a Goodyear in this case) blow out at 70 mph under controlled conditions. They tried 2 or 3 different scenerios, a blowout and a roll to a stop. A blowout and and immediate breaking. What they did not do was a blowout and a panic turn of the wheel. In neither case did the blowout cause any problems. A blowout is a blowout regardless of the tire.
My opinion, which is not shared alone, is that Ford was concerned with the suspension and center of gravity and wanted the tires to run at a lower pressure to reduce the incidence of a rollover in an accident. What they overlooked is that they put on cheap, C rated tires and should never have recommended the lower air pressure. Ford's ___ is in a sling along with Firestone as far as lawsuits go.
My old Jeep Grand Cherokee ate rotors on a regular basis until I started using the torque wrench on them. They still were junk, but they didn't warp anymore.
If you drive in lots of snow-might consider getting a set of snow tires mounted on steel rims-hear good things about Blizzaks. check out the ratings on www.tirerack.com
How did you get 52K out of the GY LSs? I went 23K on a Grand Prix and replaced them with Michelin X-ones. Granted few of those miles were highway, mostly 2 laners.
I have 7500 miles on my 2000 Acura 3.2 TL and I
went in for a second service which included oil
change and tire rotation.
Before I went in to the service, the car is
extremely quite while driving. Soon after the
service, I hear my tires rotating sound when I
drive my car ( something like dub, dub, dub... )
I went back to the acura dealer and he says that
the tires have to worn out evenly and the sound
would go away once this has happened. The sound is
not a major problem.
Has this happened to anyone else too ? Appreciate
your response
The post was pertinent and addressed a serious issue consumers are facing regarding whether to buy Firestones (a tire brand)or not. It added value to the discussion, unlike this post or yours.
But the underlying problem is real for many vehicle owners, including me. And the question is: are Firestone tires, or even all brands of Bridgestone, really dangerous? Are they worse than the current state of mass-product tire technology is generally?
I had Firestone Affinity tires on my Chevy Malibu. The model of tires have 80,000 miles warranty, if bought by owner. But I had non-warranted, original, factory installed tires, and they substantially wore-out after 30 or 32k. Especially on shoulders. And rear tires sang songs at every turn at speed as low as 15 mph.
The mechanic at local Firestone suggested to add pressure, 3 psi above what manufacturer recommended. 32 psi front / 29 rear instead of 29 /26. With higher pressure the tires hold road a bit worse, but became more predictable on turns. In other words, they behave OK - on dry roads.
Though, it became obvious for me, that in our hilly Connecticut they need replacement before wet winter. But by what? Other Firestone, or something else? And by what model?
You guess, the Explorer scandal influenced the process of selection. After all, what the car carries is not just a firewood, using a Russian expression.
After reading a lot, I decided that, with higher-rated tires, I probably will not have problems with Firestone. Still, decided to upgrade from the Affinity tires, B-rated for temperature, to A-rated performance tires, Firehawk SH-30. They are also H-rated for speed, up to 130 mph.
Obviously, this is overkill. The car itself cannot run faster than 110 mph or so. And, as most people around, I do not drive even close to the technological limits: 8-12 mph above posted speed limit (55 or 65 mph) is what is normal in New England. Though, I believe the generous rating would translate to much better margins in safety. Even if so-so quality control would let slip some tires, only marginably fit running full day at 130 mph, underinflated.
Of course, like most people, I would prefer to have a good scientific report at hand. But, as it is usual in real life, the decision had to be made now, with insufficient information of unknown quality.
My 2 cents.
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/products/fltwilat.htm
The C-rate is what is minimally acceptable by Federal Standard. But does anybody know, what the Feds consider to be acceptable for general public? And what Ford consider to be acceptable for Explorer and its owners?
According to the article by K.Davis, Kiplinger Magazine, Dec 2000, pp.88-90, with reference to NHTSA: C-rated tire that is properly inflated and not overloaded can run at 50 mph for two hours, then at half-hour each at 75, 80 and 85 mph without falling appart.
I would not knowingly drive my family on such tires, even if they really meet the Standard requirements. At least for longer distance. OK for commuting to/from work, 15 miles or so, and better if not on highways.
I am inflating the SH-30 to 32 psi front / 29 psi rear. This is 3 psi higher, than 28/26 recommended by GM, and was suggested by the local Firestone mechanics. I hope, the 3 psi will not worsen the handling.
The tires are more stiff, than Affinity. I like the feeling of rigid suspension. And, with the first rains, they are holding a wet road very well. I made a couple of 90-degree turns at 25 mph: no problem. And I have impression, that now the car stops a bit faster.
The X-ones (or plus) have a lot sharper steering response than the LS. I also had a set of the Michelins on a minivan too and had about the same amount of miles (22K mi) on them as the LS. The LS had to go because they were close to the wear bars (but even across) and became slippery in the rain. The Michelins on the van had more than 50% of the tread left and minivans beat their front tires up something awful.
So the X-ones (or pluses) handle better and wear much better. Can't expect much more than that.
Tryed to get Snow Tires on Maintenance reactivated, but the host was no longer involved with townhall. So if you are interested in Snow Tires try "Topic 632" on Aftermarket and Accessories. I'll try to stay involved as I have had experence with the popular Blizzaks, Artic Alpins, F-32s and other off brands. I am putting Nokian Hakkapeliitta Qs on the week. Check Topic 632 for reports on the Nokian.
Pat
Sounds like a timely topic! Here is a link for anyone who may be interested: Snow/Ice Tires.
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
No experience with snow/ice yet with the mild Connecticut fall. Dry weather and rain/wet, but no downpour in weeks. Could not test them for aquaplaning.
The first impression is very positive. Very good cornering, both on dry and wet pavement. No squeak or what.
Turned at speeds about 15 miles higher than usual for the road conditions, dry or wet - the car drove like on rails. Could drive faster, in all impressions, but the speed already was uncomfortable to my torso, with the upright sitting position of Malibu.
The tires do not make much noise. Less, than the Firestone Affinity it replaced. Even while the SH-30 are performance tires, not touring.
But the drive is rather stiff. I even suspect out-of-round tires at first, while driving at parking lot. Tested with other car - yes, the very slight bumps are here indeed, only they are hard to feel with other tires. Even with more rigid suspension of a wagon (88 Ford Taurus Wagon).
I inflated the tires a bit (3 psi) higher, than GM recommended. Though, this is the same pressure, as with my previous tires. I like cornering fast, and my tires are wearing-out first on edges / shoulders. So, this is reasonable with my driving style. Even more, that I like stiff suspension.
As to most blow outs being the left rear tire, I wonder if the tires had been rotated. Most tire shops either "X" the tires on a 4X4 or use the modified "X" where the rears go straight forward, and the fronts are crossed to he read. Road crown and cornering (most drivers corner harder to the left that the right because of sitting on the left side of the vehicle) tend to load the right front more than the other tires, and if under inflated may cause hidden damage to the tire that causes failure at a later date.
The third point is many drivers do not check the air in their tires regularly, and 26 PSI while low, may be adequate, but 15 PSI (as I often find in customers' tires) is not.
The true cause of Explorer roll overs, in my opinion, is a combination of:
1. marginal tires weaken by previous under inflation.
2. vehicle design less forgiving than most.
including softer springs and shocks
3. driver error.
turning abruptly upon tire failure
It reminds me of the Ford transmissions that jumped from park to reverse. Ford always held that it was operator error, but the reporters never asked why owners of other brands did not have that problem (smarter customers than purchased Fords?), or owners of multiple brands only had the problem with their Ford vehicles. I worked on a Ford truck that belonged to Northern Ilinois Gas Co. in the late seventies that had a sign on the dash that it would jump out of park if left running. It was correct, I could not put it in park so that it didn't jump out.
In this case I opine that Ford is at least partially at fault for the rool overs.
Harry