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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Nimrod's - short term gains for long term increase in Mexico jobs. Here's an idea, reduce the old timers salaries to meet the new hires and make the difference subject to performance bonuses. Adios you dimwits.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    berri said:

    Nimrod's - short term gains for long term increase in Mexico jobs. Here's an idea, reduce the old timers salaries to meet the new hires and make the difference subject to performance bonuses. Adios you dimwits.

    That is exactly what they should have done. Share in the pain and gain. All the D3 have been handing out bonuses. I don't think the workers have looked out the windows at all the people ready to take their jobs.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe when the UAW starts their targeted walkouts at key profitable truck and SUV plants, Detroit should respond in kind by locking out the UAW at less critical plants. If the contract is now expired they can start running replacement worker ads as well. Caterpillar did that a few years back and there were so many responses to those 1-800 numbers that phone lines in Illinois were crashing. The UAW settled shortly thereafter. If CAT could replace them, so can Detroit. The companies need to show some guts and respond in kind instead of always acquiescing. Market competition is only going to get tougher and at some point the current replacement demand situation will move back to normal. You can't stay in business with labor rates and work rules significantly higher than the transplants. Detroit needs to remember how they got in all that financial trouble in the past by giving away too much to the UAW. After all, the UAW workers have no loyalty to their employers as demonstrated during the financial crisis not that long ago by the workers going on TV in UAW hats instead of company insignias. Get a set Detroit!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited October 2015
    Nimrod's - short term gains for long term increase in Mexico jobs. Here's an idea, reduce the old timers salaries to meet the new hires and make the difference subject to performance bonuses. Adios you dimwits.

    It's not just the Big 3 domestic automakers. I was at a Boeing Everett Division pay and benefits meeting round about 1996. Just before we moved into one of the 40-87 or 40-88 "modern" engineering buildings at the Everett plant. They wouldn't give any logical reasons why they wouldn't move towards any kind of pay-for-performance plan for us. We were either a member of SPEEA or represented by SPEEA - technicians who worked with engineers.

    I asked if we were ever going to go to a method of work where we could "affect the way we were paid by how well we performed at our job." Nice try - the woman said words to the effect of "good question. I'll bring your question up at our next meeting." SPEEA or Management meeting - didn't matter. Neither changed anything. If a Lead or Manager liked you you could get a raise. If not - forgetta bout it.

    Things did change at Boeing by 2001-2003. It was time to change the way the jets would be designed. DCAC came along. Our department was reduced from 21 to 2 -that's right. 19 of us were laid off by the spring of 2003. So much for staying until retirement at my Boeing job.

    Hello Allied Health and the medical field. Nah-I won't ask about "pay for performance" in my medical job. :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2015
    "The United Auto Workers is threatening to strike Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV by Wednesday night, signaling a breakdown in efforts to salvage a labor deal widely rejected by members last week.

    Fiat Chrysler and the UAW extended a four-year labor pact in mid-September, and came to a tentative agreement shortly after the extension. Last week, UAW members rejected the offer, marking the first time in 30 years a master labor contract from a Detroit auto maker had been shot down by the rank-and-file."

    UAW Threatening Strike at Fiat Chrysler (WSJ - may be a registration link)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Hey UAW - habla espanol?

    Probably not too early to start learning B)

    If the UAW strikes FCA, and Ford and GM cower into giving the boat away, it will be time to turn off any future bailouts when it bites them in the rear down the road (yet again!). The UAW seems to be doing a good job helping the transplants and Mexicans prosper down the road. If gas goes back up sometime in the future and pickup and SUV sales tumble again, these UAW demands are going to hurt Detroit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Strike averted. For now anyway.

    "Entry-level workers could reach a new wage level of $29 an hour over eight years, putting them at par in 2023 or sooner with their senior colleagues and eliminating the much-hated two-tier pay scale under a new proposed tentative agreement between the UAW and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles."

    UAW deal improves wages for entry-level workers (Detroit Free Press)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But I don't think they get the senior worker's retirement pensions or health insurance. Hopefully this doesn't start driving Detroit wages significantly above the transplants because I haven't seen anything that work rules are being relaxed to meet the transplants. I suspect by 2023 the D3 will have moved more to Mexico so some of this may be moot I suppose.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    berri said:

    But I don't think they get the senior worker's retirement pensions or health insurance. Hopefully this doesn't start driving Detroit wages significantly above the transplants because I haven't seen anything that work rules are being relaxed to meet the transplants. I suspect by 2023 the D3 will have moved more to Mexico so some of this may be moot I suppose.

    No UAW pensions. They have it now where they can pay out all existing and those that will retire. It would likely fall under the PBGC guidelines if they added more people to it. I was looking at our local Teamster contract for the construction trades. Top line driver makes $25 per hour. Employers pay $8 per hour into the health plan and $21 per hour into the defined Pension plan. This was mandated by the Feds to get the funding where it should be.

    The UAW contract for those hired after 2007 is matching in the 401K up to 6.4%.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The rank and file need to shoot down this contract! Instead of uniting the union it keeps the workers divided. The contract does nothing to address on going issues like getting back to the 5 day work week, and 8 hour work day. Need to bring back time and a half over 8, 1.5x on Saturdays and 2x on Sundays. This last contract was 1 1/4 on Saturdays. Ridiculous!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    tlong said:

    gagrice said:

    Be careful what you ask for, you may get it. This is exactly what I told Rocky would happen. He said no way. Now it is one tier with several pay scales.

    DETROIT -- In a few years, there will be only one pay tier for UAW members at the Detroit 3 -- just as they demanded.

    But it won't be the one they wanted.

    If the union's tentative contract with Fiat Chrysler is any indication, the surviving tier will be the lower one: The rich, traditional jobs will go away over time, replaced by a class of auto workers earning less in wages and benefits than the highest-paid today.

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20150926/OEM01/309289954/uaw-fca-deal-dooms-tier-1-if-passed

    We all love Rocky and admire his optimism. But he's not very realistic.
    How is he doing these days?
    - It is going to get shot down! Time to break out the guillotines and baseball bats as real change is coming in the form of #FeelingTheBern

    Glad to see a few of you remember me! B) - Rocky aka rockylee
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I argue with gagrice about everyday on my Facebook wall so we go back n' forth, lol. I will say his diesel formula has added some power and fuel economy in my Chevy Cruze Diesel.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Well I could see the UAW members shooting down the Chrysler deal again as a show to upcoming bigger issues at Ford and GM. Question is, how far will FCA go? If wages jump too much higher than the transplants, I'd expect D3 to start building even more plants in Mexico after contracts are resolved to enhance their long term operating competitiveness. As for FCA specifically, this may make Canada more desirable once again. If you're a senior employee that may not matter, but the young ones might want to think strategically about all of this.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    rockylee said:

    tlong said:

    gagrice said:

    Be careful what you ask for, you may get it. This is exactly what I told Rocky would happen. He said no way. Now it is one tier with several pay scales.

    DETROIT -- In a few years, there will be only one pay tier for UAW members at the Detroit 3 -- just as they demanded.

    But it won't be the one they wanted.

    If the union's tentative contract with Fiat Chrysler is any indication, the surviving tier will be the lower one: The rich, traditional jobs will go away over time, replaced by a class of auto workers earning less in wages and benefits than the highest-paid today.

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20150926/OEM01/309289954/uaw-fca-deal-dooms-tier-1-if-passed

    We all love Rocky and admire his optimism. But he's not very realistic.
    How is he doing these days?
    - It is going to get shot down! Time to break out the guillotines and baseball bats as real change is coming in the form of #FeelingTheBern

    Glad to see a few of you remember me! B) - Rocky aka rockylee
    Rocky great to hear from you! Hope things are going well!

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    rockylee said:

    The rank and file need to shoot down this contract! Instead of uniting the union it keeps the workers divided. The contract does nothing to address on going issues like getting back to the 5 day work week, and 8 hour work day. Need to bring back time and a half over 8, 1.5x on Saturdays and 2x on Sundays. This last contract was 1 1/4 on Saturdays. Ridiculous!

    Is that really Rocky? Back again!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    FYI --current hourly wages for autoworkers, worldwide:

    Germany - $62.63

    France - $46.23

    Japan - $41.24

    Italy - $41.04

    Canada - $39.04

    USA - $37.62

    Korea - $26.96

    Brazil - $17.03

    Poland - $10.70

    Mexico - $8.24

    China -$4.10

    India - $2.10
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    rockylee said:

    The rank and file need to shoot down this contract! Instead of uniting the union it keeps the workers divided. The contract does nothing to address on going issues like getting back to the 5 day work week, and 8 hour work day. Need to bring back time and a half over 8, 1.5x on Saturdays and 2x on Sundays. This last contract was 1 1/4 on Saturdays. Ridiculous!

    Rocky, you have a hard time calculating the various costs to the company. As part of this contract, FCA has to dump $1.7 Billion into the pension plan. That goes to retirees and those hired prior to 2007. That is $42,500 for every one of the 40,000 employees. So just like before the bankruptcy the costs of keeping the pension plan afloat is no small amount. And that $42,500 only benefits current retirees and the senior workers that are making more than the new hires.

    I would have cut the pay of the senior workforce and raised the pay of the new hires to meet somewhere in the middle. I would have also cut the pension payments to keep the plan sustainable. That is what most unions have had to do to comply with the Feds. The UAW is the only Union that has had the tax payers bring their plan up to full funding.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 241,012
    Mr_Shiftright said:
    FYI --current hourly wages for autoworkers, worldwide: Germany - $62.63 France - $46.23 Japan - $41.24 Italy - $41.04 Canada - $39.04 USA - $37.62 Korea - $26.96 Brazil - $17.03 Poland - $10.70 Mexico - $8.24 China -$4.10 India - $2.10
    Where is the UK on this list?

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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It got lost in the Lucas electronics :'(
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Maybe the UK got included with India and Germany, as they kind of own the British auto industry B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I only found the annual pay for a UK assembly line worker, which is 31,000 BP. Not that great.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Next week the FCA workers vote. Will be interesting. My bet is they will lose it all if they go on strike.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    FCA has been very quiet and has kept trying to work this out without theatrics or threats. If they do walk out, they may find that Marchionne is one of those guys who yells quietly. That can be the most dangerous type to screw with, because they are often inwardly very tough.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    When I read the Automotive News article on the Tier 1 and 2 pay scales, the article noted that there were 137,000 hourly UAW employees...didn't the Big 3 have almost 750,000 back in the 1980-1990 time period?

    Are we that close to destroying the union? If the FCA workers go on strike, and the CEO fires them and replaces them with new hires (like Reagan did with PATCO...can we only hope those days are coming back???), are we getting closer to a UAW-free nation? Stay tuned...

    Remember, new hires can be trained in less than a day...heck, if they can train illiterate Mexicans to make these cars, they can train anyone in the US to do the same.

    Once we rid the world of the UAW, next comes the Teamsters...make American great again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh...hi, Rocky, glad to see you are doing OK...good thinking processes, Gagrice...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2015
    Easy on those Teamsters. Remember they tried to settle with the Twinkie folks. It was the Greedy Bakers that cooked the companies Goose. Teamsters are much better at knowing when to hold em, and when to fold em. Remember RFK tried to take down Hoffa and the Teamsters. He left the UAW alone as they were in cahoots.


  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Weren't the Teamsters the ones who demanded that Twinkies be delivered in one truck to a given supermarket and that Wonder Bread be delivered to the same market in a different truck? Talk about union featherbedding...that is NOT the way to "create jobs" in an economy...and how many jobs were lost when Twinkies re-opened? I think I read in a magazine (Forbes?) that Twinkies went from 14 plants making their products down to 2, also by eliminating old plants with (probably) extra union workers working 2 hours a day, paid for 8 hours, and they wonder why Twinkies went under...and the 2 plants, modernized, makes more product than the original 14 did before the bankruptcy...

    When will unions learn, or, better yet, when will union MEMBERS figure out that this isn't the 1970s anymore???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As long as they have kooks like Robert Reich and Bernie Sanders telling them they can go back to the way it was in the 1950s. Or as Rocky believes we can be just like Norway.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually, literacy rate in Mexico is 96.2%, and in the USA 99%. Not that much different.
    marsha7 said:

    When I read the Automotive News article on the Tier 1 and 2 pay scales, the article noted that there were 137,000 hourly UAW employees...didn't the Big 3 have almost 750,000 back in the 1980-1990 time period?

    Are we that close to destroying the union? If the FCA workers go on strike, and the CEO fires them and replaces them with new hires (like Reagan did with PATCO...can we only hope those days are coming back???), are we getting closer to a UAW-free nation? Stay tuned...

    Remember, new hires can be trained in less than a day...heck, if they can train illiterate Mexicans to make these cars, they can train anyone in the US to do the same.

    Once we rid the world of the UAW, next comes the Teamsters...make American great again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh...hi, Rocky, glad to see you are doing OK...good thinking processes, Gagrice...

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Probably not much different than in the great free market low cost/low amenity Horatio Alger in action south where the automakers love to set up shop. If only the rest of the first world could be as forward thinking as the GA-AL metroplex.
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Actually, literacy rate in Mexico is 96.2%, and in the USA 99%. Not that much different.


  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm not sure, but I think most assembly line autoworkers make the same wage rate. They probably should have different rates based on the difficulty of their specific job.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Shiftright: you must live with a different breed of people than I do, if you see a literacy rate of 99% for Americans...with the number of folks who speak with marbles in their mouth, and then add Ebonics to that, I would have to disagree that we have only 1% illiteracy in the US...plus, with all the UAW folks I knew back in the 1980s (yes, some time ago), who could barely sign their name with an "X", I still doubt those figures, altho my experiences are only anectodal, they, I sure have seen many folks who can barely speak or read, and I ain't talking about Appalachia... :p
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2015
    Literacy rate in NM is 99%. And a big percentage of the population is literate in two languages.

    Sergio can bluster but there's no way FCA can walk away from their factory investments in the Midwest and "shut" the UAW down. And as much as people like to malign the jobs, there's a trained workforce there. Move and you have to spend a lot of time and money training people. My nephew's place in Chattanooga has trouble finding decent employees who will even show up for work a few days after hiring them. His employer is an automotive supplier and a small outfit. Be interesting to know how many applications were rejected when VW hired their first 2,000 there.

    Even the border towns are having trouble expanding their manufacturing jobs - not enough qualified workers. And the chili growers across the border have the same trouble as the growers here do. Those farm jobs don't pay enough and the work is too hard.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    stever said:

    Literacy rate in NM is 99%. And a big percentage of the population is literate in two languages.

    Sergio can bluster but there's no way FCA can walk away from their factory investments in the Midwest and "shut" the UAW down. And as much as people like to malign the jobs, there's a trained workforce there. Move and you have to spend a lot of time and money training people. My nephew's place in Chattanooga has trouble finding decent employees who will even show up for work a few days after hiring them. His employer is an automotive supplier and a small outfit. Be interesting to know how many applications were rejected when VW hired their first 2,000 there.

    Even the border towns are having trouble expanding their manufacturing jobs - not enough qualified workers. And the chili growers across the border have the same trouble as the growers here do. Those farm jobs don't pay enough and the work is too hard.

    I find that info quite interesting...send some of those literate folks here to Atlanta, it will not be hard to raise the average here at all...

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2015
    Depends how you measure it. I'm sure the 99% is based on a very basic level of literacy...essentially, some ability to read and write something. If you were testing things like composing paragraphs, reading instructions and executing them, filling out bank forms, etc, I think you'd see it drop to perhaps 85%.

    I'm curious if automakers test for this when hiring--perhaps just filling out the application (or failing to do so) is enough.

    Henry Ford was said to be functionally illiterate. Didn't seem to stop him.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Or financial literacy, I mean simple things like interest rates and how to balance a checking account - wouldn't surprise me if nationally it is like 50%.

    I'd be interested at the tests given by automakers too, as this isn't like Germany with apprenticeship programs. I can't find the data but I vividly recall MB having issues with reading ability when it initially opened their stateside factory.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Second time is the charm.

    Fiat Chrysler-UAW Contract Appears Headed for Victory (WSJ - may be a registration link)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    fintail said:

    Or financial literacy, I mean simple things like interest rates and how to balance a checking account - wouldn't surprise me if nationally it is like 50%.

    Given some of the creative banking in the last decade, many of those under 50th-percentile people seem to be in the financial industries.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Maybe, but by looking at the fortunes they have amassed, and the accountability they have dodged, it looks like they know how to play their game. Makes the most insane union abuses look like kindergartners at recess.
    tlong said:



    Given some of the creative banking in the last decade, many of those under 50th-percentile people seem to be in the financial industries.

  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "Henry Ford was said to be functionally illiterate. Didn't seem to stop him."

    I recall reading that Henry Ford simply believed that he should not clutter his mind with facts of the past, that he could always hire someone to find out information that he needed...maybe he felt that way because he did not know a lot (I guess he would fail a trivia contest if he were alive today) but he certainly understood how to make a car...I think he had as many as 300,000 employees at one time, and not ONE of them was qualified to start a car company, yet one man created jobs for all of them...

    Let's be grateful for capitalism...I think it beats out the others by far...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    fintail said:

    Maybe, but by looking at the fortunes they have amassed, and the accountability they have dodged, it looks like they know how to play their game. Makes the most insane union abuses look like kindergartners at recess.

    tlong said:



    Given some of the creative banking in the last decade, many of those under 50th-percentile people seem to be in the financial industries.

    Didn't some of the union thugs cause physical harm to others? I'd say that's worse.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Like any economic system, it can be productive or it can become pathological. You can have a business with all workers making a decent living and enjoying, or at least tolerating what they do, or you can have a brutally exploitative business model.

    Henry Ford was a genius, but as a person, not very admirable. If he was what capitalism creates in a business leader, it's a poor advertisement.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2015
    Looks like the rank and file have approved the contract with FCA by ~77%. So they're committed for four years.

    Done deal: UAW confirms ratification of FCA contract (Detroit Free Press)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There hasn't been a union walkout on an automaker since 2007 I believe. Historically that's a pretty long stretch isn't it?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    "Henry Ford was said to be functionally illiterate. Didn't seem to stop him."

    I recall reading that Henry Ford simply believed that he should not clutter his mind with facts of the past, that he could always hire someone to find out information that he needed...maybe he felt that way because he did not know a lot (I guess he would fail a trivia contest if he were alive today) but he certainly understood how to make a car...I think he had as many as 300,000 employees at one time, and not ONE of them was qualified to start a car company, yet one man created jobs for all of them...

    Let's be grateful for capitalism...I think it beats out the others by far...

    Well said, marsha7. I will always have somewhat of a soft spot for Fo-Mo-Co as my first car was a '65 Mustang. And Mr. Henry Ford was a good businessman in that he wanted to build a car for the masses...because there was a demand for a car that would be affordable for Joe 6-Pack and still hold up reasonably well.

    Ahh....the room inside that engine well for reaching down and around that 6-banger. Times have certainly changed.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    tlong said:

    Didn't some of the union thugs cause physical harm to others? I'd say that's worse.

    Unfortunately, it goes both ways. Over the years many companies have used "thugs", "militias", and "duputies. to deal with union activities."

    Check out the Colorado Labor Wars. At various points the National Guard was mobilized and enforced martial laws over mining towns, mine owners hired private armies to basically terrorize the workers, and vigilante groups "arrested" and held some union organizers for months.

    Check out the Battle of the Overpass. UAW organizers were having a leaflet campaign outside River Rouge. Ford's Service Department came onto the scene with about 40 men and beat the union organizers.

    Check out the Ford Hunger March. The precursor of the UAW organized a peaceful march on Ford. When the group reached the Dearborn city line, they were met by Dearborn police who fired teargas and firearms into the group killing 3. They advanced another mile and were met with two fire engines pouring water on them. At that point they retreated before reaching the plant. Ford security showed up and with Dearborn police began firing into the the retreating crowd killing another. The next day all the wounded demonstrators were chained to their hospital beds. Eventually nobody from either side was charged with anything.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I think virtually destroying the economy and destroying the well being of countless people is worse than a black eye or fat lip.

    And what about the thugs on the other side, esp back when labor dared to stand up for itself.
    tlong said:



    Didn't some of the union thugs cause physical harm to others? I'd say that's worse.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Some seem to think business people make good leaders if they find financial success first. History doesn't have a ton of examples of this in action. Henry Ford, for all he created, definitely had some issues.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The UAW seems to have done a lot for the worker. In the earlier years, for the US worker. In later years, for the autoworkers in the Southern US and Mexico.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, aside from being a great admirer of Hitler (the feeling was mutual) and being a rather vicious anti-semite, and destroying his own son and almost his entire company, I don't think he was so bad. B)

    Let's say that a great man lost his moral compass.
    fintail said:

    Some seem to think business people make good leaders if they find financial success first. History doesn't have a ton of examples of this in action. Henry Ford, for all he created, definitely had some issues.



  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "Check out the Battle of the Overpass. UAW organizers were having a leaflet campaign outside River Rouge. Ford's Service Department came onto the scene with about 40 men and beat the union organizers."

    Ah, I miss the good old days of simple labor relations, as I shed a nostalgic tear... :p ...just kidding, guys...
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