Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to use the "best" product each company offered, so I used the Amsoil Series 2000 and not the XL-7500 or SAE. The Series 2000 does not have a 10w-30 blend.
Their run of the mill 10W30 full synthetic that they market for 25,000 miles with a filter half way is the 10W30 I was speaking of. Not the XL or the series 2000, the most common is their 100% synthetic 10W30.
Incidently, it might be interesting to note that the majority of vehicles do not have oil temperature gauges. One car that I have, I was pleasantly surprised to find out, has one. The indicated oil temperature with 104 degrees ambient temperature with the air conditioning at full ON, and under hard acceleration with cruise speeds of 90 mph to 120 mph for passing was 204 degrees with a peak in S/G traffic of 224 degrees, well within the operating temperatures of synthetic oil.
My experience is a big YES. My subaru manual (1991) said to never change the manual transmission fluid under normal service. Needless to say after about 90,000 miles it was really hard to shift. I change the regular tranny oil, and after a few thousand miles the synchro gears would grind when shifting into 2'nd and 4th.
Even though it was not recommended, I drained out the old fluid and put in synthetic together with Lubegard manual gear oil(found at Napa). It's much easier to shift. The gears don't grind during normal shifting, and it even helps stop gear shift shock. It cost only $10.00 more at Jiffy lube. Yes, I know the attitude about Jiffy on this site, but the Transmission shops wanted to charge another $40.00, and all you have to do is drain the oil and refill.
I believe that it saved me from a transmission overhaul.
Very interesting oil temp data. I agree that these temperatures are OK but your comparison provides a surprise for me. One would expect the lack of cooling air in city traffic to elevate the oil temp - but I didn't realize those conditions would boost the temp 20*F above that obtained under the high-load condition of 90+ MPH cruising. Do you know if this temperature comparison is typical for other cars? Approximately what oil temp do you reach in this vehicle under "normal" cruise conditions; i.e. 60 MPH with an ambient air temperature of ~70*F? If you can tolerate one more question, does this vehicle have a conventional oil sump, no auxiliary oil cooler, and is the temp sensor well submerged in the sump? Thanks for your patience.
The car is a 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Informally, I post on Corvette forums and the temps track with other Corvette owners. Sorry, perhaps I didn't post clearly, under the heavy load of desert conditions, 104 degrees and A/C on with hard acc to 90 (cruise speed and bursts to 120) the oil temp was 204.
The 224 temp was under stop and go driving. (S/G) If I had to guess, I would say the temps are lower for most normal cars.
The normal oil temp is app 195-200 at 60 mph and 70 degrees and yes, conventional sump and no aux oil cooler. At the time of this writing, I don't have access to my shop manual for the sensor location, but that is a good question, I will look when I have access to the book. Incidently, Mobil One 5-30W is factory fill. And I have and will continue with Mobil One.
This is the bulk return oil temperature. So if the sensor is on the outside of the sump, that will put the actual oil 10-15 degrees higher. Now it is reasonable that some of the oil was exposed to higher temperature parts of the engine before returning to the sump (pan). Bulk engine temperature is controlled by the stat. set at 195. But in hard driving conditions could run hotter than this. Im guessing that this 224F+10 or 235F is pretty close to bulk engine temp and there are probably some places where the oil is that could run 10-30 degrees more. Steel and aluminum are obviously very good conductors so it won't be much more than this. My guess then is that some of the oil on every trip around the engine gets to around 250 degrees. At that temperature oil life is starting to be limited, which of course is syn's big advantage.
that they could elimitate the oil cooler from previous models and save money in manufacturing as the synthetic runs a little cooler and has a higher FP.
Ok, this guy's website is extremely biased towards Amsoil, so take what he says with a grain of salt, but I thought this was interesting:
"Although Red Line Oil is touted as a top-notch extended drain synthetic oil, oil analysis results show that, at least in passenger vehicle applications, it may not be useful for extended drains. The following oil analysis reports (both from March of 98) were performed on two different vehicles, and you will notice that these analyses were performed after relatively short periods of oil use..."
Now, two vehicles does not prove anything, but if I were going to use RedLine in an extended drain capacity, I might get an analysis done after about 10K, just to make sure.
Yeah, the deduction of the bulk temp oil sensor doesnt seem unreasonable. I see also in the IPB that there is a grounding lead from the EOT.
Also that was the designers intention to eliminate the engine oil cooler for a number of performance and reliability and of course bean counter goals. The maximum recommended drain interval is 15,000 miles. Obviously it will be less for more spirited runnings. There is a computer algorithm that keeps track of I think 4 important items and lists a % remaining useful life.
I thought you'd all be amused at the experiment I'm running on my 99 Cavalier, 2.2 speed auto. Added Mobil 1 for the first time yesterday at 21,000 miles. The temp gauge [such as it is]now runs to the left of the middle whereas before it was dead in the middle. Now I know you're all laughing at my false economy, but I have read in these forums that the 2.2 is a "hot" running engine, so I thought that going to synthetic would help compensate for the higher heat of this particular engine. I'm going on a long trip to the central coast of Oregon, the same one I take every year.As I keep meticulous records of every drop of gas and oil and maintenance receipts, I want to see if there's an improvement in mileage as well. Now I KNOW that many on Edmund's will wonder WHY I'm wasting money on what many believe is a POS direct from the factory.I treat evry car I've ever owned this way, but this is the 1st one I have had the chance to do it with from new [and I doubt I will ever do it again-I hate car payments], so this is a long term experiment in squeezing the longest life out of the least likely [and to many, the least DESERVING :-) ]candidate. Has anyone any experience with synthetic Automatic Trans. fluid,especially as a replacement for the "lifetime/100,000 mile" type? [yeah right!] That will be next as I plan to change when I get back.The extended intervals make great ad copy in my opinion,I don't believe a word of it! THX in advance, Dave
I'll bet you 99 Cavalier already has synthetic. At least GM cars are not known for shoddy transmissions. I'll bet your dealer's service department won't recommend that long of an interval. What does your owner's manual say on the Severe Service Interval?
Don't be so quick to write off a Cavalier as a POS. If the 2.2 is not the PH Quad- it is a very good reliable engine. There is nothing wring with a Cavalier. My son bought one with my help and recommendation. His is a manual (used syn in the engine from day 1) Not a lick of trouble. I've been using the Mobil 1 syn in the transmissions of my vehicles for some time. The one vehicle operating tempeature dropped when I changed over. I doubt that there is syn in there from the factory. They would be using the AC/Delco stuff.
I'm guessing you'll get at least 1 mpg more with the syn. Let us know.
Yes the GM Trans are good. The ones they put in their vehicles in the early 80's killed them and ultimately killed their bottom line. They learned.
I can easily justify using synthetic oil in a cheap "iffy" car.
Heck, some of the best anecdotal evidence I've ever recieved by switching to synthetics has been with small engines like you'd find on lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc ...
It was in a lawnmower that I noticed how much easier some of the pull-start engines were to start when their crankcase was filled with synthetic.
Our 20+ year old John Deere snowblower used to consume an alarming amount of oil ... until I began topping it off with syntheic oil.
My favorite stuff for these engines is Mobil 1 15W50. It's awfully tough stuff and lasts a long time with little degradation ... according to Redline Synthetic oil.
I have a 98 v8 explorer running mobil 1 syn and have been happy so I will venture to try my 1968 pontiac firebird (350) on mobile 1 syn. 15-50. I currently run 10-30 dyno and it uses about a quart every 3k mile oil change (Half through the gaskets). With 100k on the bottom end and about 3k on top, it will be interesting to see how much change I get in the mpg and oil consumption. I currently get 15mpg with strict highway use. Has anyone else tried this with an oldie?
I have a 2.2L Vortec in my 98 S-10. It is a decent motor. Mine has always had a knocking sound (piston slap or lifters perhaps?) when it is cold. This normally only lasts a minute or two and only occurs in the very cold weather. The noise was reduced, but still noticable after I switched the truck to syn. at 40K.
I'm hoping for at least 250K of hard "truck" service out of the engine. I'll let you know in another 10 years.....
Don't get me wrong, I love my car and I also love the engine and trans. I'm from that era where you could look under the hood and recognize everything. The Cavalier is the closest to that in a modern car I have seen. On the way into work today and with the air running,my initial observtion was confirmed: it DOES seem to be running cooler. Love it! Thx, all. I will keep you posted.Dave
About 14 years ago I bought an air compressor that came dry in the crankcase, with an owners manual that said to use 10w-40 motor oil. I filled with Red Line polyol ester. After the first 12 years I decided maybe I should change the oil on general principles. Not having any Mobil 1 handy, I went one step higher and used 10w-40 dino. "Genuine" compressor oil is apparently just not necessary. The point is, I get to joke you PAO folks with a little barbed humor! (True story)
Personally, I do have problems with even 50,000 mile intervals even with a synthetic Transmission fluid. To me it's a matter of dollars. $100.00 every 2 years for a fluid change vs $2,000+ for a burnt out transmission.
I think that the 30,000 interval is a good choice also. Cheap insurance.
I have a 98 Chevy Malibu with 3.1l engine. According to manual, the Dexron-3 (?) transmission fluid never need to be changed in normal service, and must be changed at 50k miles with severe service.
Severe conditions, if I remember right, include stop-and-go traffic at high temperature, mountain and hilly terrains, towing a trailer, use as taxi / delivery, etc. I live in CT: hilly but definitely not mountains. Driving pattern includes a lot of short suburban/city trips: 5.5 miles to work, 4 miles to our son school, 0.5-1 miles to buy groceries. Total 40-50% of mileage these short trips, but only 1/2 times in moderate to heavy traffic: my wife drives in rush time, while I am starting and leaving work late, driving at practically empty streets. Any case, CT is not a very hot place, except in July. So, I do not consider it to be severe service, and at first planned to replace the fluid at 60k mile service - just for safety.
However, both the Firestone mechanic next door, and the service adviser at dealership suggested to change fluid every 30k miles. When I asked the adviser, why they did not said this when I had the 30k service, she answered that, probably, the dealership mechanic found the fluid to be clean and not needed to be replaced.
However, I decided to replace the fluid at about 40k, and to upgrade to Mobil-1 synthetic.
Turned to be, the mechanics never hear about synthetic ATF. Nor other mechanics around, even in one shop specialized in transmissions. I bought one bottle ($6 plus tax), brought it to Firestone, and the manager endorsed the fluid for my transmission.
When I asked, how much ATF I need, he suggested 20 quarts at first, for flushing. A bit expensive at $6 per bottle. When I showed him the printout from GM site, that even the dry transmission holds at most 13 quarts of ATF, he suggested to buy 15 quarts for flushing.
Turned to be, only 9 quarts were used in reality for flushing and filling, and now I have a spare box of the ATF (6 bottles). Will use them the next time.
The transmission service is not cheap, definitely not $100. The long-service Delco transmission filter itself costs $80. The Firestone mechanic was astonished by the price: turned to be much higher that his estimate. Total fluid, filter, and labor was more close to $200, than to $100 - even whithout counting the box of ATF left.
I did not have any problem with the transmission. Neither with the original ATF, that was used to 40k miles, nor with Mobil-1 filled only 3k miles ago. Do not feel any difference after changing. Consider the service as a form of insurance, but would not repeat it every 30k miles, nor every 2 years. Probably, the next time will be with 90k mile service...
If you are changing out the tranny fluid at less than 50K each time, don't buy the long-service filter! Just get a regular filter for about $10 or less.
Well, you did the expensive complete replacement service. Mine for under $100 basically drains the fluid and refills with a new filter and fluid. When done frequently, I don't think the more expensive complete replacement is needed. Of course my filter was only $15.00, not $85.00. I would probably change that every other time since it's clearly a long life filter.
In the early 90's I had a pickup, purchased new, that I had regularly serviced by the dealer. I didn't do what I called severe driving by any stretch of the imagination. I would travel at least 250 miles a week. The service requirement for the transmission fluid was simply check. It always looked good. That is until it locked on a freeway. When opened up it was completely shredded. The fluid was a dark brown and smelt burnt. I don't want to get through that again. The simple drain and refill has worked very well since. I have never had my cars go so long without tranny problems.
On the transmission pan and you can simply do a drain and fill, gets about 50% of the fluid but has worked well for me for a long time. Quick easy, no pan to drop. Almost all cars have gone to this except for GMs. Filter, well, for transmissions, they are pretty much worthless, in fact, many Fords no longer have tranny filters or screens.
Manager expected to use about 15 quarts with flushing. Given only 9 quarts were used in reality, at most 1.6 quarts was spent on flushing. The ATF was drained and refilled, but probably not much more.
Currently it is about 50:50 mix of new Mobil-1 and what was left from the original Dexron III filled at factory. Or 60:40 mix. Does not makes sense to calculate more precisely.
I expect to use the current ATF mix for 50k miles. Given that GM think this good enough with natural oil based fluid and severe service, it must be even better with synthetic.
I realized that exist aftermarket transmission filters, and that they probably are less expensive than OEM, but I did not realize that they are made to substantially different specs concerning service life. However, I probably would not save on quality.
As advertised from my message back in #1600s, I have taken samples from my two vehicles and the results are shown below.
2000 Honda Odyssey - 0W-30 Amsoil series 2000 Mobil 1 M1-301 oil filter, just want to try one. Oil not changed yet, will change when 18,000 miles on the oil, another 600 miles to go, total mileage 24,300. Conclusion, will change oil every 15,000 from now on
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al 9558 12.0 11.1 34.3 7.2 70 4 10 15100 13.9 26.7 60.0 4.9 79 4 11
2000 Toyota ECHO - 5W-30 Amsoil series 3000 Amsoil SDF-10 w/bypass filter BE-100 Oil changed at 20100 miles, total mileage 26,400 Conclusion, will change oil every 20,000, but could stretch it to 25,000
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al 10740 12.2 12.2 48.6 7.0 20 9 8 20050 14.2 36.7 84.3 5.8 34 10 8
Not every vehicle is the same and conditions change, need two samples to plot a trend. My 92 Ford Econoline with 124,000+ miles could not get beyond 7500 miles before one of the following vis,%oxd,%nox, or TBN went out of spec. Something must be wrong with emissions control, sold the van. My 91 Toyota Previa had no problem going 19,000 miles with Amsoil SDF-57 oil filter and I sold it at 157,000 miles. Viscosity thickens with use, and gas mileage increased 2 mpg on the ECHO after changing to new oil. I can get 39 mpg on a good week, cool weather, moderate traffic, some A/C usage. I live in Atlanta area. Hope this helps the skeptics.
You might encounter leaks on this beautiful classic reason being main seal is a rope seal, it been reported after synthetics clean off the varnish the rope seal or main seal leaks develope.
May need to by a upgraded main seal witch may not be available, this is all informational if you choose to go the synthetic route
What do you or your analysis company consider high for iron and silicon as parts per million? The literature says that when the TBN reaches 1/3 of original value and/or less then 3 the oil should be changed. In the case of Amsoil that would be around a TBN of 4. Comments?
My problem in the past has been mostly silicon contamination as my company flags it at anything over 32 ppm regardless of how many miles on the oil. As you know, silicon is present in Amsoil, about 10-15 ppm to begin with, and you also have silicon seals/gaskets that contribute to the issue. They view silicon as an absolute value that cannot be exceeded whereas iron, lead, copper etc are viewed as variables that can increase with mileage on the oil. My recent increases have been in lead but it has occured in more then one engine?
Dodges do not have tranny drain plugs either. I installed a plug from Summit on the first change as I did on my older Buick. Could the auto makers be trying to say that they don't want the owner to service the tranny?
As that type of person I have used Mobil 1 oil 10w/30, 5W/30, 0W/30 for the past 11.5 years in my 222,300 mile 90 Q45 [filter and oil change every 4,000 miles max]. Additionally the 2nd new transmission has 166,800 miles presently and has gotten a Mobile 1 Syn ATF flush every 20,000 to 30,000 miles. So including the rear diff [Mobile 1] I have spent about $2200 or about $191 per year [roughly an extra penny per mile] on Mobile Syn fluids somehow the extra $117 [per year] vs conventional fluids seems worth it.
I recently reposessed a 92 Corsica(127K) from my daughter who upgraded. It has used syn since 1995 or 1996. I gave it a fresh oil (Mobil 1/Pure One) change after the other syn was only in 5K. Car then had some problems and my service man put in regular oil and a Carquest???whatever-oil filter. I can't stand it so today-50 miles later it gets a Pure One and Mobil 1. Three oil changes within a period of 300 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only in America. But seriously the change will pay for itself in better gas milage.
Q45, second tranny in 166,000 miles. This does not say much to me about Mobil 1 ATF????? Should be original tranny. 4k oil changes with filter, way too often!
adc100 My son had a 91 4 cyl corsica, 128,000 when he crushed the front end (Jan 2001) and it was totalled. Amsoil synthetic (with Amsoil oil filter) since 95 or 49,000 miles, once a year oil changes, filter at 6 months, oil analysis on this car was always fine. Great four banger.
My oil analysis stated that Fe over 300ppm as signs of excessive wear. All my samples except for the 92 Econoline (w/22,400 miles on the oil, Fe was 374) has been less than 100 ppm, both Toyotas around 20-40 ppm). They provide no guidance on Si, but I can ask. My Si has been between 12-25 on all samples (8 samples on 4 vehicles), except the Ford w/22,400 miles (56 ppm). I should have sampled sooner, but I sampled the next intervals at 15,000, then cut it to 7,500 miles and determined 7,500 miles was the limit for the Ford. A perfectly good engine shouldn't have any problem, but I suspected this engine emission controls were starting to degrade. Gas prices start to go up and I sold the Ford and bought an ECHO. 14-16 mpg vs 35-39 mpg.
My oil analysis company concurs with the TBN limits. That was probably my big concern with the Honda TBN at 4.9 at 15,100 miles. I figured it could make another 3,000 miles so I plan on changing the oil and filter when the odometer hits 25,000 miles in about 2 weeks.
Hey does anybody know what would happen if I switch for a regular 5-30w to synthetic after 100k on the engine? I heard that some engine parts required the regular oil to function right. Is this true.
most recomend running a 25% synthetic blend for one oil change interval to allow time for teh seals to adjust to the new substances in the oil.
I put syn in my subaru after 115K miles. No problem. But this car doesn't leak at all. If you have leaking seals get them fixed. You can put a dye in the oil and have the mechanic check.
Synthetic oils in the olden days used pure PAOs, and engines were not built with the strict tolerances of today. This meant that the seals had to swell to compensate for larger manufacturing tolerances. 1970 engines are simply not built for synthetic oil, unless a heavier weight is used.
This was taken care of in 2 ways. Stricter tolerances were built into the engine so less reliance on the seal was necessary. And second, in the oil itself refined esters were added. These substances increase the temperature where the oil starts to degrade, and they soften the seals just like conventional does.
Since you got the last word on the other board...he..he..he. I don't believe a manufacturer could take credit for additional HP or milage(CAFE) because You would not be able to force the consumer to use it. And no company will come out with a recommendation (which also would require additional and expensive re-testing) to use a more expensive product. Customers won't buy it. Also statistically vehicles would last longer and they certainly don't want that. Companies don't usually do the right thing until someone beats them over the head with a club. Does the word-Firestone come to mind???
BTW it looks like Edmunds finally figured out their web site problems. Works great.
As I pointed out on the break-in topic, GM is forcing owner's to use synthetic in the Corvette. Some have specualted that the move was originally to lose the oil cooler, but I'm sure they figured on a little extra hp gain in there as well.
#1946 The use of synthetic in lieu of using an oil cooler is not speculation, as the information was gleaned from Corvette engineers interviewed that are responsible for that area. However, is it is ironic that if one prepares an off the showroom floor Corvette for higher loads, i.e. hp mods, racing or competition, the first things tended to be added back are engine oil coolers and transmission oil coolers and power steering coolers. While I intuitively think that there is a hp gain, however slight, I am not aware of any folks doing before and after tests like dynos to see what the real numbers are.
As for Mobil One, Amsoil, Redline, I would probably half way go along with the feeling that Amsoil and Redline are about the best. Two things detract from the slam dunk feeling that it is heads and shoulders better. Price and subscription to the rating systems that most oils subject themselves to. I am aware of the fact that there are substancial subscription and test fees not to mention the click fees per qt. Be that as it may I have been comfortable with the more available and also cheaper Mobil One brand.
At an Amsoil meeting several years ago I asked the head chemist what oil he would recommend. Obviously biased he said Amsoil of course, but then said that if he did not get Amsoil his choice would be Mobil 1, an excellent oil!
Amsoil's price, I am convinced, is due to their pyramid marketing structure, however, if you pay the $20/year dealer fee (no obligations of any kind) you can get a quart of 10W30 full synthetic for $4.35/quart plus tax. That is competitive with Mobil 1. Of course, I have a distribution center locally as well as my jobber keeps an inventory so I do not have to pay shipping, just driving. So, depending on what it costs to drive to Wal_Mart to get Mobil 1 add that cost in if you need to purchase via the mail for a comparison!
#1949 Currently, WALMART sells Mobil One locally for app. $17. per 5 qt container. I also use the same brand and weight for the other vehicles I have, so it makes for a lot of convenience, not to mention not having to do many more oil changes. (I try to stagger them so they are all not due in the same month or time frame for example.) So this post is not seen out of context, I do a 15,000 mile oil change interval.
Comments
Amsoil
VI: 167
PP: -54
FP: 446
NK: 6.6
TBN: >12.2
VI 177
PP -51
FP 446
Noack 6.7
TBN 11
VI 160
FP 450
PP -65
Even though it was not recommended, I drained out the old fluid and put in synthetic together with Lubegard manual gear oil(found at Napa). It's much easier to shift. The gears don't grind during normal shifting, and it even helps stop gear shift shock. It cost only $10.00 more at Jiffy lube. Yes, I know the attitude about Jiffy on this site, but the Transmission shops wanted to charge another $40.00, and all you have to do is drain the oil and refill.
I believe that it saved me from a transmission overhaul.
The car is a 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Informally, I post on Corvette forums and the temps track with other Corvette owners. Sorry, perhaps I didn't post clearly, under the heavy load of desert conditions, 104 degrees and A/C on with hard acc to 90 (cruise speed and bursts to 120) the oil temp was 204.
The 224 temp was under stop and go driving. (S/G) If I had to guess, I would say the temps are lower for most normal cars.
The normal oil temp is app 195-200 at 60 mph and 70 degrees and yes, conventional sump and no aux oil cooler. At the time of this writing, I don't have access to my shop manual for the sensor location, but that is a good question, I will look when I have access to the book. Incidently, Mobil One 5-30W is factory fill. And I have and will continue with Mobil One.
"The oil pan cover, oil temperature sensor... mount to the sides of the oil pan (upper)...".
Further descriptions put the EOT under the left rear exhaust manifold. (guessing, 3 inches low)
"Although Red Line Oil is touted as a top-notch extended drain synthetic oil, oil analysis results show that, at least in passenger vehicle applications, it may not be useful for extended drains. The following oil analysis reports (both from March of 98) were performed on two different vehicles, and you will notice that these analyses were performed after relatively short periods of oil use..."
Here's the rest:
http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/red_line.shtml
Now, two vehicles does not prove anything, but if I were going to use RedLine in an extended drain capacity, I might get an analysis done after about 10K, just to make sure.
http://www.c5-corvette.com/factory_oil_fill.htm
I think ruking has a vette, maybe he can enlighten us.
Yeah, the deduction of the bulk temp oil sensor doesnt seem unreasonable. I see also in the IPB that there is a grounding lead from the EOT.
Also that was the designers intention to eliminate the engine oil cooler for a number of performance and reliability and of course bean counter goals.
The maximum recommended drain interval is 15,000 miles. Obviously it will be less for more spirited runnings. There is a computer algorithm that keeps track of I think 4 important items and lists a % remaining useful life.
Added Mobil 1 for the first time yesterday at 21,000 miles. The temp gauge [such as it is]now runs to the left of the middle whereas before it was dead in the middle.
Now I know you're all laughing at my false economy, but I have read in these forums that the 2.2 is a "hot" running engine, so I thought that going to synthetic would help compensate for the higher heat of this particular engine.
I'm going on a long trip to the central coast of Oregon, the same one I take every year.As I keep meticulous records of every drop of gas and oil and maintenance receipts, I want to see if there's an improvement in mileage as well.
Now I KNOW that many on Edmund's will wonder WHY I'm wasting money on what many believe is a POS direct from the factory.I treat evry car I've ever owned this way, but this is the 1st one I have had the chance to do it with from new [and I doubt I will ever do it again-I hate car payments], so this is a long term experiment in squeezing the longest life out of the least likely [and to many, the least DESERVING
:-) ]candidate.
Has anyone any experience with synthetic Automatic Trans. fluid,especially as a replacement for the "lifetime/100,000 mile" type? [yeah right!]
That will be next as I plan to change when I get back.The extended intervals make great ad copy in my opinion,I don't believe a word of it!
THX in advance, Dave
I'm guessing you'll get at least 1 mpg more with the syn. Let us know.
Yes the GM Trans are good. The ones they put in their vehicles in the early 80's killed them and ultimately killed their bottom line. They learned.
Heck no! The benefits of the synthetic oil applies to the ride of your choice.! Have a safe and happy trip! I hope to see the posting of your results.
Heck, some of the best anecdotal evidence I've ever recieved by switching to synthetics has been with small engines like you'd find on lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc ...
It was in a lawnmower that I noticed how much easier some of the pull-start engines were to start when their crankcase was filled with synthetic.
Our 20+ year old John Deere snowblower used to consume an alarming amount of oil ... until I began topping it off with syntheic oil.
My favorite stuff for these engines is Mobil 1 15W50. It's awfully tough stuff and lasts a long time with little degradation ... according to Redline Synthetic oil.
>;^)
--- Bror Jace
I'm hoping for at least 250K of hard "truck" service out of the engine. I'll let you know in another 10 years.....
I have used synthetic fluid for years on other cars, been changing at 30,000 but perhaps that has been too soon.
On the way into work today and with the air running,my initial observtion was confirmed: it DOES seem to be running cooler. Love it! Thx, all. I will keep you posted.Dave
I think that the 30,000 interval is a good choice also. Cheap insurance.
Severe conditions, if I remember right, include stop-and-go traffic at high temperature, mountain and hilly terrains, towing a trailer, use as taxi / delivery, etc. I live in CT: hilly but definitely not mountains. Driving pattern includes a lot of short suburban/city trips: 5.5 miles to work, 4 miles to our son school, 0.5-1 miles to buy groceries. Total 40-50% of mileage these short trips, but only 1/2 times in moderate to heavy traffic: my wife drives in rush time, while I am starting and leaving work late, driving at practically empty streets. Any case, CT is not a very hot place, except in July. So, I do not consider it to be severe service, and at first planned to replace the fluid at 60k mile service - just for safety.
However, both the Firestone mechanic next door, and the service adviser at dealership suggested to change fluid every 30k miles. When I asked the adviser, why they did not said this when I had the 30k service, she answered that, probably, the dealership mechanic found the fluid to be clean and not needed to be replaced.
However, I decided to replace the fluid at about 40k, and to upgrade to Mobil-1 synthetic.
Turned to be, the mechanics never hear about synthetic ATF. Nor other mechanics around, even in one shop specialized in transmissions. I bought one bottle ($6 plus tax), brought it to Firestone, and the manager endorsed the fluid for my transmission.
When I asked, how much ATF I need, he suggested 20 quarts at first, for flushing. A bit expensive at $6 per bottle. When I showed him the printout from GM site, that even the dry transmission holds at most 13 quarts of ATF, he suggested to buy 15 quarts for flushing.
Turned to be, only 9 quarts were used in reality for flushing and filling, and now I have a spare box of the ATF (6 bottles). Will use them the next time.
The transmission service is not cheap, definitely not $100. The long-service Delco transmission filter itself costs $80. The Firestone mechanic was astonished by the price: turned to be much higher that his estimate. Total fluid, filter, and labor was more close to $200, than to $100 - even whithout counting the box of ATF left.
I did not have any problem with the transmission. Neither with the original ATF, that was used to 40k miles, nor with Mobil-1 filled only 3k miles ago. Do not feel any difference after changing. Consider the service as a form of insurance, but would not repeat it every 30k miles, nor every 2 years. Probably, the next time will be with 90k mile service...
In the early 90's I had a pickup, purchased new, that I had regularly serviced by the dealer. I didn't do what I called severe driving by any stretch of the imagination. I would travel at least 250 miles a week. The service requirement for the transmission fluid was simply check. It always looked good. That is until it locked on a freeway. When opened up it was completely shredded. The fluid was a dark brown and smelt burnt. I don't want to get through that again. The simple drain and refill has worked very well since. I have never had my cars go so long without tranny problems.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/4t40_main.htm
Manager expected to use about 15 quarts with flushing. Given only 9 quarts were used in reality, at most 1.6 quarts was spent on flushing. The ATF was drained and refilled, but probably not much more.
Currently it is about 50:50 mix of new Mobil-1 and what was left from the original Dexron III filled at factory. Or 60:40 mix. Does not makes sense to calculate more precisely.
I expect to use the current ATF mix for 50k miles. Given that GM think this good enough with natural oil based fluid and severe service, it must be even better with synthetic.
I realized that exist aftermarket transmission filters, and that they probably are less expensive than OEM, but I did not realize that they are made to substantially different specs concerning service life. However, I probably would not save on quality.
2000 Honda Odyssey - 0W-30 Amsoil series 2000
Mobil 1 M1-301 oil filter, just want to try one.
Oil not changed yet, will change when 18,000 miles on the oil, another 600 miles to go, total mileage 24,300. Conclusion, will change oil every 15,000 from now on
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al
9558 12.0 11.1 34.3 7.2 70 4 10
15100 13.9 26.7 60.0 4.9 79 4 11
2000 Toyota ECHO - 5W-30 Amsoil series 3000
Amsoil SDF-10 w/bypass filter BE-100
Oil changed at 20100 miles, total mileage 26,400
Conclusion, will change oil every 20,000, but could stretch it to 25,000
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al
10740 12.2 12.2 48.6 7.0 20 9 8
20050 14.2 36.7 84.3 5.8 34 10 8
Not every vehicle is the same and conditions change, need two samples to plot a trend. My 92 Ford Econoline with 124,000+ miles could not get beyond 7500 miles before one of the following vis,%oxd,%nox, or TBN went out of spec. Something must be wrong with emissions control, sold the van. My 91 Toyota Previa had no problem going 19,000 miles with Amsoil SDF-57 oil filter and I sold it at 157,000 miles. Viscosity thickens with use, and gas mileage increased 2 mpg on the ECHO after changing to new oil. I can get 39 mpg on a good week, cool weather, moderate traffic, some A/C usage. I live in Atlanta area. Hope this helps the skeptics.
May need to by a upgraded main seal witch may not be available, this is all informational if you choose to go the synthetic route
The literature says that when the TBN reaches 1/3 of original value and/or less then 3 the oil should be changed. In the case of Amsoil that would be around a TBN of 4. Comments?
My problem in the past has been mostly silicon contamination as my company flags it at anything over 32 ppm regardless of how many miles on the oil. As you know, silicon is present in Amsoil, about 10-15 ppm to begin with, and you also have silicon seals/gaskets that contribute to the issue. They view silicon as an absolute value that cannot be exceeded whereas iron, lead, copper etc are viewed as variables that can increase with mileage on the oil.
My recent increases have been in lead but it has occured in more then one engine?
adc100
My son had a 91 4 cyl corsica, 128,000 when he crushed the front end (Jan 2001) and it was totalled. Amsoil synthetic (with Amsoil oil filter) since 95 or 49,000 miles, once a year oil changes, filter at 6 months, oil analysis on this car was always fine. Great four banger.
My oil analysis company concurs with the TBN limits. That was probably my big concern with the Honda TBN at 4.9 at 15,100 miles. I figured it could make another 3,000 miles so I plan on changing the oil and filter when the odometer hits 25,000 miles in about 2 weeks.
I put syn in my subaru after 115K miles. No problem. But this car doesn't leak at all. If you have leaking seals get them fixed. You can put a dye in the oil and have the mechanic check.
Synthetic oils in the olden days used pure PAOs, and engines were not built with the strict tolerances of today. This meant that the seals had to swell to compensate for larger manufacturing tolerances. 1970 engines are simply not built for synthetic oil, unless a heavier weight is used.
This was taken care of in 2 ways. Stricter tolerances were built into the engine so less reliance on the seal was necessary. And second, in the oil itself refined esters were added. These substances increase the temperature where the oil starts to degrade, and they soften the seals just like conventional does.
BTW it looks like Edmunds finally figured out their web site problems. Works great.
The use of synthetic in lieu of using an oil cooler is not speculation, as the information was gleaned from Corvette engineers interviewed that are responsible for that area. However, is it is ironic that if one prepares an off the showroom floor Corvette for higher loads, i.e. hp mods, racing or competition, the first things tended to be added back are engine oil coolers and transmission oil coolers and power steering coolers. While I intuitively think that there is a hp gain, however slight, I am not aware of any folks doing before and after tests like dynos to see what the real numbers are.
Amsoil's price, I am convinced, is due to their pyramid marketing structure, however, if you pay the $20/year dealer fee (no obligations of any kind) you can get a quart of 10W30 full synthetic for $4.35/quart plus tax. That is competitive with Mobil 1. Of course, I have a distribution center locally as well as my jobber keeps an inventory so I do not have to pay shipping, just driving. So, depending on what it costs to drive to Wal_Mart to get Mobil 1 add that cost in if you need to purchase via the mail for a comparison!
Currently, WALMART sells Mobil One locally for app. $17. per 5 qt container. I also use the same brand and weight for the other vehicles I have, so it makes for a lot of convenience, not to mention not having to do many more oil changes. (I try to stagger them so they are all not due in the same month or time frame for example.) So this post is not seen out of context, I do a 15,000 mile oil change interval.