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Comments
Amsoil
VI: 167
PP: -54
FP: 446
NK: 6.6
TBN: >12.2
VI 177
PP -51
FP 446
Noack 6.7
TBN 11
VI 160
FP 450
PP -65
Even though it was not recommended, I drained out the old fluid and put in synthetic together with Lubegard manual gear oil(found at Napa). It's much easier to shift. The gears don't grind during normal shifting, and it even helps stop gear shift shock. It cost only $10.00 more at Jiffy lube. Yes, I know the attitude about Jiffy on this site, but the Transmission shops wanted to charge another $40.00, and all you have to do is drain the oil and refill.
I believe that it saved me from a transmission overhaul.
The car is a 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Informally, I post on Corvette forums and the temps track with other Corvette owners. Sorry, perhaps I didn't post clearly, under the heavy load of desert conditions, 104 degrees and A/C on with hard acc to 90 (cruise speed and bursts to 120) the oil temp was 204.
The 224 temp was under stop and go driving. (S/G) If I had to guess, I would say the temps are lower for most normal cars.
The normal oil temp is app 195-200 at 60 mph and 70 degrees and yes, conventional sump and no aux oil cooler. At the time of this writing, I don't have access to my shop manual for the sensor location, but that is a good question, I will look when I have access to the book. Incidently, Mobil One 5-30W is factory fill. And I have and will continue with Mobil One.
"The oil pan cover, oil temperature sensor... mount to the sides of the oil pan (upper)...".
Further descriptions put the EOT under the left rear exhaust manifold. (guessing, 3 inches low)
"Although Red Line Oil is touted as a top-notch extended drain synthetic oil, oil analysis results show that, at least in passenger vehicle applications, it may not be useful for extended drains. The following oil analysis reports (both from March of 98) were performed on two different vehicles, and you will notice that these analyses were performed after relatively short periods of oil use..."
Here's the rest:
http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/red_line.shtml
Now, two vehicles does not prove anything, but if I were going to use RedLine in an extended drain capacity, I might get an analysis done after about 10K, just to make sure.
http://www.c5-corvette.com/factory_oil_fill.htm
I think ruking has a vette, maybe he can enlighten us.
Yeah, the deduction of the bulk temp oil sensor doesnt seem unreasonable. I see also in the IPB that there is a grounding lead from the EOT.
Also that was the designers intention to eliminate the engine oil cooler for a number of performance and reliability and of course bean counter goals.
The maximum recommended drain interval is 15,000 miles. Obviously it will be less for more spirited runnings. There is a computer algorithm that keeps track of I think 4 important items and lists a % remaining useful life.
Added Mobil 1 for the first time yesterday at 21,000 miles. The temp gauge [such as it is]now runs to the left of the middle whereas before it was dead in the middle.
Now I know you're all laughing at my false economy, but I have read in these forums that the 2.2 is a "hot" running engine, so I thought that going to synthetic would help compensate for the higher heat of this particular engine.
I'm going on a long trip to the central coast of Oregon, the same one I take every year.As I keep meticulous records of every drop of gas and oil and maintenance receipts, I want to see if there's an improvement in mileage as well.
Now I KNOW that many on Edmund's will wonder WHY I'm wasting money on what many believe is a POS direct from the factory.I treat evry car I've ever owned this way, but this is the 1st one I have had the chance to do it with from new [and I doubt I will ever do it again-I hate car payments], so this is a long term experiment in squeezing the longest life out of the least likely [and to many, the least DESERVING
:-) ]candidate.
Has anyone any experience with synthetic Automatic Trans. fluid,especially as a replacement for the "lifetime/100,000 mile" type? [yeah right!]
That will be next as I plan to change when I get back.The extended intervals make great ad copy in my opinion,I don't believe a word of it!
THX in advance, Dave
I'm guessing you'll get at least 1 mpg more with the syn. Let us know.
Yes the GM Trans are good. The ones they put in their vehicles in the early 80's killed them and ultimately killed their bottom line. They learned.
Heck no! The benefits of the synthetic oil applies to the ride of your choice.! Have a safe and happy trip! I hope to see the posting of your results.
Heck, some of the best anecdotal evidence I've ever recieved by switching to synthetics has been with small engines like you'd find on lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc ...
It was in a lawnmower that I noticed how much easier some of the pull-start engines were to start when their crankcase was filled with synthetic.
Our 20+ year old John Deere snowblower used to consume an alarming amount of oil ... until I began topping it off with syntheic oil.
My favorite stuff for these engines is Mobil 1 15W50. It's awfully tough stuff and lasts a long time with little degradation ... according to Redline Synthetic oil.
>;^)
--- Bror Jace
I'm hoping for at least 250K of hard "truck" service out of the engine. I'll let you know in another 10 years.....
I have used synthetic fluid for years on other cars, been changing at 30,000 but perhaps that has been too soon.
On the way into work today and with the air running,my initial observtion was confirmed: it DOES seem to be running cooler. Love it! Thx, all. I will keep you posted.Dave
I think that the 30,000 interval is a good choice also. Cheap insurance.
Severe conditions, if I remember right, include stop-and-go traffic at high temperature, mountain and hilly terrains, towing a trailer, use as taxi / delivery, etc. I live in CT: hilly but definitely not mountains. Driving pattern includes a lot of short suburban/city trips: 5.5 miles to work, 4 miles to our son school, 0.5-1 miles to buy groceries. Total 40-50% of mileage these short trips, but only 1/2 times in moderate to heavy traffic: my wife drives in rush time, while I am starting and leaving work late, driving at practically empty streets. Any case, CT is not a very hot place, except in July. So, I do not consider it to be severe service, and at first planned to replace the fluid at 60k mile service - just for safety.
However, both the Firestone mechanic next door, and the service adviser at dealership suggested to change fluid every 30k miles. When I asked the adviser, why they did not said this when I had the 30k service, she answered that, probably, the dealership mechanic found the fluid to be clean and not needed to be replaced.
However, I decided to replace the fluid at about 40k, and to upgrade to Mobil-1 synthetic.
Turned to be, the mechanics never hear about synthetic ATF. Nor other mechanics around, even in one shop specialized in transmissions. I bought one bottle ($6 plus tax), brought it to Firestone, and the manager endorsed the fluid for my transmission.
When I asked, how much ATF I need, he suggested 20 quarts at first, for flushing. A bit expensive at $6 per bottle. When I showed him the printout from GM site, that even the dry transmission holds at most 13 quarts of ATF, he suggested to buy 15 quarts for flushing.
Turned to be, only 9 quarts were used in reality for flushing and filling, and now I have a spare box of the ATF (6 bottles). Will use them the next time.
The transmission service is not cheap, definitely not $100. The long-service Delco transmission filter itself costs $80. The Firestone mechanic was astonished by the price: turned to be much higher that his estimate. Total fluid, filter, and labor was more close to $200, than to $100 - even whithout counting the box of ATF left.
I did not have any problem with the transmission. Neither with the original ATF, that was used to 40k miles, nor with Mobil-1 filled only 3k miles ago. Do not feel any difference after changing. Consider the service as a form of insurance, but would not repeat it every 30k miles, nor every 2 years. Probably, the next time will be with 90k mile service...
In the early 90's I had a pickup, purchased new, that I had regularly serviced by the dealer. I didn't do what I called severe driving by any stretch of the imagination. I would travel at least 250 miles a week. The service requirement for the transmission fluid was simply check. It always looked good. That is until it locked on a freeway. When opened up it was completely shredded. The fluid was a dark brown and smelt burnt. I don't want to get through that again. The simple drain and refill has worked very well since. I have never had my cars go so long without tranny problems.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/4t40_main.htm
Manager expected to use about 15 quarts with flushing. Given only 9 quarts were used in reality, at most 1.6 quarts was spent on flushing. The ATF was drained and refilled, but probably not much more.
Currently it is about 50:50 mix of new Mobil-1 and what was left from the original Dexron III filled at factory. Or 60:40 mix. Does not makes sense to calculate more precisely.
I expect to use the current ATF mix for 50k miles. Given that GM think this good enough with natural oil based fluid and severe service, it must be even better with synthetic.
I realized that exist aftermarket transmission filters, and that they probably are less expensive than OEM, but I did not realize that they are made to substantially different specs concerning service life. However, I probably would not save on quality.
2000 Honda Odyssey - 0W-30 Amsoil series 2000
Mobil 1 M1-301 oil filter, just want to try one.
Oil not changed yet, will change when 18,000 miles on the oil, another 600 miles to go, total mileage 24,300. Conclusion, will change oil every 15,000 from now on
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al
9558 12.0 11.1 34.3 7.2 70 4 10
15100 13.9 26.7 60.0 4.9 79 4 11
2000 Toyota ECHO - 5W-30 Amsoil series 3000
Amsoil SDF-10 w/bypass filter BE-100
Oil changed at 20100 miles, total mileage 26,400
Conclusion, will change oil every 20,000, but could stretch it to 25,000
Miles on oil vis. %oxd %nox TBN FE Pb Al
10740 12.2 12.2 48.6 7.0 20 9 8
20050 14.2 36.7 84.3 5.8 34 10 8
Not every vehicle is the same and conditions change, need two samples to plot a trend. My 92 Ford Econoline with 124,000+ miles could not get beyond 7500 miles before one of the following vis,%oxd,%nox, or TBN went out of spec. Something must be wrong with emissions control, sold the van. My 91 Toyota Previa had no problem going 19,000 miles with Amsoil SDF-57 oil filter and I sold it at 157,000 miles. Viscosity thickens with use, and gas mileage increased 2 mpg on the ECHO after changing to new oil. I can get 39 mpg on a good week, cool weather, moderate traffic, some A/C usage. I live in Atlanta area. Hope this helps the skeptics.
May need to by a upgraded main seal witch may not be available, this is all informational if you choose to go the synthetic route
The literature says that when the TBN reaches 1/3 of original value and/or less then 3 the oil should be changed. In the case of Amsoil that would be around a TBN of 4. Comments?
My problem in the past has been mostly silicon contamination as my company flags it at anything over 32 ppm regardless of how many miles on the oil. As you know, silicon is present in Amsoil, about 10-15 ppm to begin with, and you also have silicon seals/gaskets that contribute to the issue. They view silicon as an absolute value that cannot be exceeded whereas iron, lead, copper etc are viewed as variables that can increase with mileage on the oil.
My recent increases have been in lead but it has occured in more then one engine?
adc100
My son had a 91 4 cyl corsica, 128,000 when he crushed the front end (Jan 2001) and it was totalled. Amsoil synthetic (with Amsoil oil filter) since 95 or 49,000 miles, once a year oil changes, filter at 6 months, oil analysis on this car was always fine. Great four banger.
My oil analysis company concurs with the TBN limits. That was probably my big concern with the Honda TBN at 4.9 at 15,100 miles. I figured it could make another 3,000 miles so I plan on changing the oil and filter when the odometer hits 25,000 miles in about 2 weeks.
I put syn in my subaru after 115K miles. No problem. But this car doesn't leak at all. If you have leaking seals get them fixed. You can put a dye in the oil and have the mechanic check.
Synthetic oils in the olden days used pure PAOs, and engines were not built with the strict tolerances of today. This meant that the seals had to swell to compensate for larger manufacturing tolerances. 1970 engines are simply not built for synthetic oil, unless a heavier weight is used.
This was taken care of in 2 ways. Stricter tolerances were built into the engine so less reliance on the seal was necessary. And second, in the oil itself refined esters were added. These substances increase the temperature where the oil starts to degrade, and they soften the seals just like conventional does.
BTW it looks like Edmunds finally figured out their web site problems. Works great.
The use of synthetic in lieu of using an oil cooler is not speculation, as the information was gleaned from Corvette engineers interviewed that are responsible for that area. However, is it is ironic that if one prepares an off the showroom floor Corvette for higher loads, i.e. hp mods, racing or competition, the first things tended to be added back are engine oil coolers and transmission oil coolers and power steering coolers. While I intuitively think that there is a hp gain, however slight, I am not aware of any folks doing before and after tests like dynos to see what the real numbers are.
Amsoil's price, I am convinced, is due to their pyramid marketing structure, however, if you pay the $20/year dealer fee (no obligations of any kind) you can get a quart of 10W30 full synthetic for $4.35/quart plus tax. That is competitive with Mobil 1. Of course, I have a distribution center locally as well as my jobber keeps an inventory so I do not have to pay shipping, just driving. So, depending on what it costs to drive to Wal_Mart to get Mobil 1 add that cost in if you need to purchase via the mail for a comparison!
Currently, WALMART sells Mobil One locally for app. $17. per 5 qt container. I also use the same brand and weight for the other vehicles I have, so it makes for a lot of convenience, not to mention not having to do many more oil changes. (I try to stagger them so they are all not due in the same month or time frame for example.) So this post is not seen out of context, I do a 15,000 mile oil change interval.