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--- Bror Jace
1. So they can mate engines to either manual or automatic transmissions?
2. Some other reason dependent on why cycle engines and car engines are different?
And also, in the case of manual transmissions, the gears act like meat grinders on the lubrication. Therefore, high pressure additives are needed to give longevity to the lube. Those additives are not desirable in quantity in engine cylinders. Motorcycle engines require a compromise between engine pressure susceptible engine oil and gear oil (hypoid).
I've also been told by my dealership that once I start using full synthetic oil, I can't go back to regular dino oil.
Here's my experience.
I have older cars, one has synthetic, another uses synthetic blend, and the oldest uses dino. The valve covers on all cars leaked between 115 and 125k. The one with synthetic actually went the longest. So the newer synthetic oils are definitely NOT harder on seals than blends or conventional.
The difference is that once a leak started the synthetic definitely leaked faster. So once it started leaking I had to replace the seal quicker.
Moving from syn to conventional and back again is not a problem. Most synthetics are compatible with any conventional.
Higher mileage oils that are hydrocracked often have special seal conditioner additives. But if you are in your warranty period I wouldn't use them even though I consider them to be impressive, and recently converted my blend car to Maxlife. They are not SL compatible, and list them as being SJ standard. They have more anti wear ingredients and appear to be excellent oils with anti-sludging capabilities similar to syntheric. I just wouldn't give Toyota a reason to deny a claim if the famous error occurs.
I spoke with Mobil and their SL grade syn should come out this April. Valvoline has SL in at least the 10W-30 grade available now. The SL complies with the GF-3 standard which has increased anti-sludging properties. The Mobile technician I spoke to said that it has taken some time because they actually had to improve the oil to meet the standard.
Hope this helps.
I have used Synthetic since 1984. When it got a quart low between 6,000 mile changes, I customarily put a quart of regular in. No problem. Car went 268,000 miles before being destroyed in an argument with a cow.
Relative got over 200,000 on a *DODGE NEON* ! before it too was destroyed, this time for failure to replace timing chain.
Dodge truck has mostly had synthetic in it, for ten years, but when I am in too much of a hurry to change it myself, I ave put regular in it for a while. Still no problem.
I suppose there are improvements with some of the newer formulations, but really, do you want your car to live forever? I mean, is 200K miles in a Neon a good thing or a bad thing?
By the way, I have a friend who continues to use his 200+K 1982 Chevette as his daily driver for commuting to work. He uses NAPA petroleum (Valvoline) and NAPA filters. He changes both every 7500 miles, and always has. Never has he used synthetic in this vehicle.
Also,is there any consensus on a reasonable change frequency with a filter midway,for Amsoil?Is 8,000 with filter at 4,000 pushing the limit? Thanks!!
Wait a minute. Their dino oil and their blend have been labeled "SL" for months now ... but their PREMIUM SYNTHETIC formula that costs 3-4 times as much can't pass the test?
That is too funny! >:^D I'm just glad I switched brands in the last two years. >;^)
Mr. Detailer, please clarify if I've "missed" something.
--- Bror Jace
For those that are interested, I did a cost analysis comparison between dino and synthetic oil. My results were surprising. If I stayed with regular dino oil, chances are that I'd go for 6000 kms oil changes (3500 miles) since this is what a trusted mechanic said, and it just makes sense to me. Toyota recommends 7500 mile oil changes on newer cars, which I find crazy. If I'd go with synthetic, I'd change my oil every 8000 kms. (5000 miles) instead of the 6000 kms. with regular dino oil. What has been said here for the most part leads me to believe that it's a waste of money to have the oil changed any sooner if using synthetic. I then estimated the price for the next 8 oil changes, and compared the results. For dino oil, it would cost $10.58 per 1000 kms., compared to $10.94 per 1000 kms. for synthetic oil. The 40 cents per 1000 kms. extra is really worth it, especially considering the synthetic would protect my engine so much better.
I've tighten the valve cover bolts before, but what it really needed was new valve cover gaskets. The front cylinder bank is easy enough to be. The rear....takes some time and equipment I don't have at my apartment (engine lift). The front bearing seal was a $10 fix while the timing belt was replaced. The rear seal was done while the clutch was replaced ($800 with towing).
canc:
What I meant by cost analysis, if I were to sell the car, I get "X" amount of dollars. A clutch replacement I got 3 months earlier costs $800. A new power steering pump costs $800, and so on. Then my car, if I sold it privately (find a sucker who wanted a car with 210,000 miles) is less than $1000, actually the TMV was about $700 (with some body rust also). The clutch was a necessity item. It just wasn't worth to put in money which I cannot get back.
Now I gotta find a cheaper, source which I can drive to, to buy more Delvac 1, than the Stroudsburg, PA Truck Stop ($30 for a gallon). It was fun arguing with a different counter-person that my Golf TDI can use Delvac 1 5w40.
It's just a matter of lower volume for the oil. Smaller overall profits.
Yes, if you change your oil yourself and double your normal 3,000 mile drain interval, the cost difference is a wash. The convenience of delaying the drain is even better reason. For some reason though, ordering up synthetic at a quickee lube place is MUCH more expensive. I am getting too old to change my own oil.
Re: 'anecdotal' nature of extended engine life. I have no doubt that people take Chevettes and the like stupendous mileages using regular oil, and one must be cautious about anecdotal evidence however; in my experience the difference was quite startling for two consecutive vehicles. Friends who bought cohort vehicles at the same time and drove them under less severe conditions had nowhere near the longevity I did.
Too bad synthetic doesn't work to protect the cosmetics of the vehicle. Driving along in a rolling garbage dump with a purring motor is a mixed pleasure.
Re: lack of synthetic standard. I take it that this is a criticism that there is no clear distinction between dino juice and synthetic.
Maybe, but I have little brand loyalty and use whatever name brand synthetic is on sale. I still had excellent success.
Anyway, I am a little skeptical that this is a 'scam' There are several competing synthetics these days, and very little price difference. This suggests to me that the price premium is likely to be cost-based, rather than rip-off based. Otherwise you would see 2.50 'synthetics' being marketed.
While you guys who know are at it, I read lots of synthetic vs. dino discussion, and where does a syn/blend fall in this debate? I noted no percentage of syn is stated...makes me suspicious. Full Syn is so expensive, but my Troopster is worth it. What do you say? I want to do about 5-7000 miles between changes.
I have owned 5 TLC's, in all of them I have used Mobil One synthetic. (pick your brew weight, 0w-30, 5w-30,10w-30) I have used either fram (considered crap in light of your oil filter) or OEM filters and have done 15k mile intervals. One I sold with 250 k miles app, another has 125k (owned by a family member) another has 95k, another has 39k, and the last has 35k. Oil consumption for these inline 6 engines has been app 1/4-1/2 qt @ app the 14k mark. So all in all Ihave app .5 million miles of experience. Absolutely no sludge WHATSOEVER! Since TLC's at major tunes require valve checks and subsequent adjustments, the valve covers have been off and in the words of the Toyota dealer mechanics: it is as clean as a whistle and the valves have not needed adjustment!!??
Another car I have is a Z06 and it sees oil change intervals of between 12-15k. not counting the "newbie" oil change at app 1600 miles.
Yes. This is why I use Red Line synthetic oil. I'd rather pay $8 per quart for something I KNOW is better than the mass-market stuff ... and I really dislike the direction the mass-market synthetics are headed. More hype, cheaper formulas.
Mr. Detailer, I'm not really satisfied with your answer That the major oil companies started with their dino oil formulas first. Is this just a theory of yours? It sounds OK, but synthetics are taking up an ever-increasing amount of shelf space in stores and they are becoming more and more popular with DIYers.
Besides, didn't they have a while to prepare for the coming of the new standard? I'm surprised more PAO-based synthetics didn't pass this as they are currently formulated.
--- Bror Jace
Great info! Helps me better understand some of the mis conceptions the average person picks up.
Again, I am not bashing Redline and would switch to it in a heartbeat if someone could prove to me it's as good as Amsoil and Mobil with respect to Engine wear, catalytic performance and seal life for the 200K. I really doubt that will happen. I applaud Bror for taking on the experiment himself. I'm just not ready to.
Later,
Al
adc100, again, I think that is becasue Mobil (and maybe 2-3 other companies) have the resources to do that sort of testing. My Honda with the piston-slap noise is 90% proof that some wear occurs when using Mobil 1, even with modest (5-6,500 mile) drain intervals. <:^(
--- <b>Bror Jace
(AMsoil) "the series 2000" oil. which would you pick and WHY.. lay down the info.. "please".
oh btw 0w30 weight.
http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html
I use the Amsoil 0W in one car only because I have used their 10W30 for many years with great results and I wanted quicker lubrication to the upper areas ASAP on this one car. But, different additive package between the two and I don't have the additives or numbers to back anything up. I do have a 3 inch binder of oil analsyis results though.
Secondly, from an engine wear standpoint, wouldn't one always be better off using some type of 40wt synthetic? Mobil has a 0W40 or the Valvoline 5W40? The Europeans seem to have adopted this as a better oil. I realize the Americans won't go for that because of fuel economy standards, but strictly speaking in reference to protection, don't you all think the 40wts would be better? I'm thinking about running the 0W40 in my truck for that very reason.
Mark
one2one no real comparisons on oil that I have seen anyhere. Since Syntec is not a PAO or Ester (true synthetic)-in my opinion you can not put them in the same class with Mobil 1 or Amsoil. There is lots of discussion above on the board.
mdecamps The Europeans have adopted this philosophy possibly due to the need for shear stability at extremely high engine speeds. When 30 wt has been shown by Mobil to result on almost no wear after 200K, I would question the need for 40wt. Depending on the application-heavier may not be better. It may not flow into the areas needing lubrication as well as 30 wt.
Mobil does not have any API certified 0w30 oil.
The following was taken from the API site.
MOBIL 10W-30 SH**
MOBIL 10W-30 SJ*
MOBIL 10W-40 SH*
MOBIL 10W-40 SJ
MOBIL 20W-50 SH
MOBIL 20W-50 SJ
MOBIL 5W-30 SH**
MOBIL 5W-30 SJ*
MOBIL 1 10W-30 SH/CF**
MOBIL 1 15W-50 SH/CF
MOBIL 1 5W-30 SH/CF**
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-30 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-40 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 20W-50 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-20 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-30 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 10W-30 SJ/CF*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 5W-30 SJ/CF*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 30 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 40 SJ
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SH
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SJ
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 40 SH
*Energy Conserving
I guess the reason I don't believe that's the case is because of the other people (often kids getting their cars second hand) having the same symptom at the same mile mark (around 80,000 miles). I'm sure these cars have quite a varied history when it comes to oil brands and change intervals and it appears that my car, which got 'premium' treatment, fared no better than average. That's the real disappointment. I know I drive it a little hard (high-speed, high-RPMs at times) but with my oil change schedule, that should not have been a problem.
Of course, we'll never know if there would be any difference had I used Red Line oil since the car was nearly new. The good thing is that these Honda engines seem to soldier on for many tens of thousands of miles after the piston slap noise becomes audible. Now using Red Line, the noise isn't even audible. >:^)
On Castrol, I think that everyone has to make up their own mind on this issue since the chuckleheads at SAE and API refused to fill their role as referees and keep the synthetic part of the industry from plummeting into a hype-heavy, clouded mess.
Here's the story: Refining of crude oils have come a long way in the past couple of decades and some of the heavily processed (hydrocracked/isomerized) mineral oils are significantly more uniform and stable at both high and low temperatures than previous types of petroleum. Castrol, seeing that these high-tech crude oils were better than typical mineral oils and cost half as much as traditional synthetics (PAO and esters) to produced, figured they could get away with calling this hydrocracked crude (Group II and III base oils) "synthetic" and make a fortune. They claim they changed the petroleum enough to qualify it as a new molecule. Compared to how traditional synthetics are made, I disagree. They simply made a very high quality conventional oil.
Just so you know, PAO stands for polyalphaolefin which is a liquid made from ethylene gas and esters are formed from the combination of certain acids and alcohols. These processes actually synthesize a lubricant from something that is nothing like a lubricant. They are a far cry from merely improved/refined crude oil.
Well, Castrol's gamble seems to have paid off. Castrol used to buy PAO from Mobil and they switched to buying a hydrocracked crude from Shell. Mobil lost a customer, and gained a competitior in the synthetics business who was producing a product at half Mobil's cost. Mobil sued Castrol and because the industry standards people failed to do their job and come up with an actual standard, Mobil failed to make their case that Castrol's use of the word "synthetic" was misleading and lost in court. Score a big win for the sleazeball bean counters and people who like to cut corners and play semantic games. <:^(
So, the term "Synthetic" has been proclaimed a 'marketing' term, not a technical one. Since then (1997-1998), other manufacturers (many of them) have been substituting hydrocracked crude for PAO in their formulas. So, I don't trust any of them anymore.
Personally, I think these hydrocracked oils are good, just not worth $4-4.50 per quart retail. If I want that kind of oil, I'll buy Valvoline Max-Life and pay half that ... and get a strong additive package to boot.
Mobil put Patrick Bedard's article (from the November 2000 issue of <i>Car & Driver) on their website in the Mobil 1 section. If you are into oils/lubes (especially synthetics), consider it 'required reading'.
Moving on: Between Amsoil and Mobil 1? Well, if you want to keep your car a long, long time and want the best protection for your engine, I'd have to pick Amsoil. According to all public information, they are both PAO-based synthetics, but lab tests show that Amsoil's additive package is significantly stronger. The only caveat is that this stuff might prove troublesome to your emissions equipment (catalytic converter and perhaps O2 sensor) over time.
My thinking is that these components tend to go bad eventually and they are cheaper to replace than an engine. The difference is hundreds of dollars versus thousands.
As for the Europeans, I don't trust their recommendations. I believe political (enviromental) concerns override what may be best for vehicles. They want to generate as little waste as possible so they recommend very long drain intervals ... even with fairly conventional oil. Also, using wide-spread oils (0W30, 5W40, 5W50, 0W40, 10W60, etc ...) in high revving engines travelling at high speeds over long periods of time (extended drain intervals) is a recipe for premature wear and engine failure. The viscosity improvers that make thin oils act like thicker oils when warm are prone to being sheared down by RPMs and heat stress. This starts to happen immediately and the breakdown can be significant after just a few thousand miles.
--- Bror Jace
killakell... your owners manual is a contract between u and them for service stating what they will do if you meet the conditions set forth in the service guide. in that manual it states use "api certified", not an oil that meets api, but one with the donut. You may be able to get away with using a non api oil but is the hassles worth the headaches? you might want to look at the toyota sludge thread and you'll see one that had an rx300 used amsoil with extended drains and got sludged. now, if it was the oil's fault or not, he opened the door for denial of warr and was fighting them for cost of an engine. he may win or not, either way, he has had to go way out of his way to battle this. Obviously alot of people here have not had to deal with this.. Myself, I learn from example and it only takes one.
My advice, play the game with the rules set forth unless you like the challenge and gamble associated with your 20 to 50,000 investment.
It's just too simple to just following it until the warr is out then do what you want.
Amsoil does carry an xl7500 series oil that is api. i don't know if 0w30 is one or not though.
bobistheoilguy