FleetwoodMacsi, Yeah, I know about the problems with motorcycles who's motor and transmission share an oil sump ... but I think the higher-RPMs the sport bikes see makes the stresses on oil that much worse.
Automatic transmissions require fluid with specific friction characteristics for correct timing of clutch and band lock up rates and shift "feel" with the various formulations of compressed paper pulp clutch facings and band linings used in a given model. They also operate at higher pressure than that found in engine lubricating systems.
Artfully stated! And also, in the case of manual transmissions, the gears act like meat grinders on the lubrication. Therefore, high pressure additives are needed to give longevity to the lube. Those additives are not desirable in quantity in engine cylinders. Motorcycle engines require a compromise between engine pressure susceptible engine oil and gear oil (hypoid).
I've pretty much done the research on this, and this is my remaining question. I have a Toyota 3.0L V6 with automatic transmission, and I'm wondering if there are any disadvantages of using synthetic oil: Is it more demanding on parts of an engine that regular oil isn't?
I've also been told by my dealership that once I start using full synthetic oil, I can't go back to regular dino oil.
I completely agree that if one has the engines that have a remote possibility of gelling that a synthetic oil is an excellent choice. I would change over to syn, and not look back.
Here's my experience.
I have older cars, one has synthetic, another uses synthetic blend, and the oldest uses dino. The valve covers on all cars leaked between 115 and 125k. The one with synthetic actually went the longest. So the newer synthetic oils are definitely NOT harder on seals than blends or conventional.
The difference is that once a leak started the synthetic definitely leaked faster. So once it started leaking I had to replace the seal quicker.
Moving from syn to conventional and back again is not a problem. Most synthetics are compatible with any conventional.
Higher mileage oils that are hydrocracked often have special seal conditioner additives. But if you are in your warranty period I wouldn't use them even though I consider them to be impressive, and recently converted my blend car to Maxlife. They are not SL compatible, and list them as being SJ standard. They have more anti wear ingredients and appear to be excellent oils with anti-sludging capabilities similar to syntheric. I just wouldn't give Toyota a reason to deny a claim if the famous error occurs.
I spoke with Mobil and their SL grade syn should come out this April. Valvoline has SL in at least the 10W-30 grade available now. The SL complies with the GF-3 standard which has increased anti-sludging properties. The Mobile technician I spoke to said that it has taken some time because they actually had to improve the oil to meet the standard.
I have half way. My old car, 200,000 miles on it, using synthetic from 60k, started to leak badly around the valve covers. 3 quarts synthetic to 2 quarts Max-Life reduced my oil consumption (from 1 qt every 3000 miles to 1/2 qt every 3000 miles) and less leakage through the valve covers, while maintaining the usual 4000 mile oil change.
I have used Synthetic since 1984. When it got a quart low between 6,000 mile changes, I customarily put a quart of regular in. No problem. Car went 268,000 miles before being destroyed in an argument with a cow.
Relative got over 200,000 on a *DODGE NEON* ! before it too was destroyed, this time for failure to replace timing chain.
Dodge truck has mostly had synthetic in it, for ten years, but when I am in too much of a hurry to change it myself, I ave put regular in it for a while. Still no problem.
I suppose there are improvements with some of the newer formulations, but really, do you want your car to live forever? I mean, is 200K miles in a Neon a good thing or a bad thing?
I am one who picked up the banner of the synthetic lubes, then eventually migrated back to mostly using petroleum again. The lack of category standards coupled with unjustifiable high prices has left me happy to have switched back. The point? Don't worry one bit about switching a vehicle to synthetic and then going back to petroleum. By the way, I have a friend who continues to use his 200+K 1982 Chevette as his daily driver for commuting to work. He uses NAPA petroleum (Valvoline) and NAPA filters. He changes both every 7500 miles, and always has. Never has he used synthetic in this vehicle.
Does oil have a shelf life if it is unopened(or kept sealed if opened in a large container)?I'm going to Amsoil full synth and can get a much better price in a larger qty.So I wonder if it will be OK sitting around a few years?
Also,is there any consensus on a reasonable change frequency with a filter midway,for Amsoil?Is 8,000 with filter at 4,000 pushing the limit? Thanks!!
I needed an excuse to buy a new car anyway. PLus I only have 1 car, and being under 25, it's a little hard to rent a car. My old Camry V6 requires the engine to be lifted for easier access to the rear cylinder banks. Endless labor, and if I took it to a shop, it will cost too much, and the payback isn't there.
Mr. Detailer: "I spoke with Mobil and their SL grade syn should come out this April. ... The Mobil technician I spoke to said that it has taken some time because they actually had to improve the oil to meet the standard."
Wait a minute. Their dino oil and their blend have been labeled "SL" for months now ... but their PREMIUM SYNTHETIC formula that costs 3-4 times as much can't pass the test?
That is too funny! >:^D I'm just glad I switched brands in the last two years. >;^)
Mr. Detailer, please clarify if I've "missed" something.
On the V6, I had some seepage. You can torque the cover bolts yourself on the rear 3 cylinders. Mine were so loose I could turn by hand. Hard to get to but you can get to all of them, some from above if you wiggle enough and others from below. It can be doen I bet they are really loose. Yes, due to having to remove the fuel injection a gasket replacement is about $300, not worth it. Mine has stopped seeping.
8u6hfd: I was just asking to see if it was toast at that point. I love hearing stories about long-lasting Camrys (and other cars).
For those that are interested, I did a cost analysis comparison between dino and synthetic oil. My results were surprising. If I stayed with regular dino oil, chances are that I'd go for 6000 kms oil changes (3500 miles) since this is what a trusted mechanic said, and it just makes sense to me. Toyota recommends 7500 mile oil changes on newer cars, which I find crazy. If I'd go with synthetic, I'd change my oil every 8000 kms. (5000 miles) instead of the 6000 kms. with regular dino oil. What has been said here for the most part leads me to believe that it's a waste of money to have the oil changed any sooner if using synthetic. I then estimated the price for the next 8 oil changes, and compared the results. For dino oil, it would cost $10.58 per 1000 kms., compared to $10.94 per 1000 kms. for synthetic oil. The 40 cents per 1000 kms. extra is really worth it, especially considering the synthetic would protect my engine so much better.
The post from mrdetailer is very troubling. This is the kind of crap that has me thinking I should stop spending 4 bucks a quart on synthetic when I really don't know whether it's any better for the long-term health of the engines I'm putting it in.
armtdm: I've tighten the valve cover bolts before, but what it really needed was new valve cover gaskets. The front cylinder bank is easy enough to be. The rear....takes some time and equipment I don't have at my apartment (engine lift). The front bearing seal was a $10 fix while the timing belt was replaced. The rear seal was done while the clutch was replaced ($800 with towing).
canc: What I meant by cost analysis, if I were to sell the car, I get "X" amount of dollars. A clutch replacement I got 3 months earlier costs $800. A new power steering pump costs $800, and so on. Then my car, if I sold it privately (find a sucker who wanted a car with 210,000 miles) is less than $1000, actually the TMV was about $700 (with some body rust also). The clutch was a necessity item. It just wasn't worth to put in money which I cannot get back.
Now I gotta find a cheaper, source which I can drive to, to buy more Delvac 1, than the Stroudsburg, PA Truck Stop ($30 for a gallon). It was fun arguing with a different counter-person that my Golf TDI can use Delvac 1 5w40.
It's a matter of allocation of resources. I've noticed all of the companies have basically been following Mobile's development path. Conventional oils to SL first, then blends, and finally synthetic.
It's just a matter of lower volume for the oil. Smaller overall profits.
Most motor vehicles don't require synthetic to provide acceptable service. A severe-use vehicle might fair considerably better on Mobil 1, or a manufacturer might simply choose to use a synthesized oil as a marketing ploy, or,... hey, you know all this! Use all the synthetic you want of any brand you want. You'll pay a lot for it, but if you really do not want to change oil and filters very often, that may be reason enough. I decided to go back to petroleum oils as a matter of exercising my choice to no longer "play the game" of buying products that are marketed (generally) at far too high a profit margin and that are part of a segment that has few if any identifiable standards. Are you aware of what the spread is on the chemical nature of "synthetics?" There are Town Hall posters out there that say they will not buy ANY product from certain companies because of their anger over what those companies consider to be truly synthetics, or any subset thereof. I use Klotz synthetic hypoid in the drive hub of my Valkyrie, so I am not what you may think! I am pragmatic on this topic, not dogmatic. Several years back I bought the hypoid for just under $3.00 per quart. The price has risen to almost $10.00 per quart. When my supply runs out, I will not buy more at that new price.
Yes, if you change your oil yourself and double your normal 3,000 mile drain interval, the cost difference is a wash. The convenience of delaying the drain is even better reason. For some reason though, ordering up synthetic at a quickee lube place is MUCH more expensive. I am getting too old to change my own oil.
Re: 'anecdotal' nature of extended engine life. I have no doubt that people take Chevettes and the like stupendous mileages using regular oil, and one must be cautious about anecdotal evidence however; in my experience the difference was quite startling for two consecutive vehicles. Friends who bought cohort vehicles at the same time and drove them under less severe conditions had nowhere near the longevity I did.
Too bad synthetic doesn't work to protect the cosmetics of the vehicle. Driving along in a rolling garbage dump with a purring motor is a mixed pleasure.
Re: lack of synthetic standard. I take it that this is a criticism that there is no clear distinction between dino juice and synthetic.
Maybe, but I have little brand loyalty and use whatever name brand synthetic is on sale. I still had excellent success.
Anyway, I am a little skeptical that this is a 'scam' There are several competing synthetics these days, and very little price difference. This suggests to me that the price premium is likely to be cost-based, rather than rip-off based. Otherwise you would see 2.50 'synthetics' being marketed.
Years ago, a few companies used agricultural products to manufacture diesters and polyol esters. The lubes derived from those molecular structures gave engines a tremendous film strength that kept frictional wear surfaces from touching each other far better than petroleum. That seemed worthwhile. Today, synthetics seem to be degenerated down into brewed copies of the preferred molecules found in petroleum, and special processing of petroleum that some consider a basis for claiming synthesis and thus "synthetic." We all draw our own conclusions from the facts, and we should.
I want to give 2001 Trooper the benefit of owner oil change...except that I've never done it. I'm a female owner who is starting late, so I haven't picked up much automotive background. I want to drive this one a long time. Want to wipe it's little gasket, clean the old fitting, etc., drain it longer than at Jiffy-Lube. I'm comfortable with the procedure, bought a good, synthetic filter (98% at10-20 microns), a sny/blend (Valvoline DuraBlend SAE 10W-40) and am ready to go. But wait. The book says I must use only API SE, SF, SG, SH or ILSAC GF-1 quality oil. My oil states "exceeds API services SL/SJ,CF,ACEA service A3 and all preceding API gasoline categories." WHAAAAAA????
While you guys who know are at it, I read lots of synthetic vs. dino discussion, and where does a syn/blend fall in this debate? I noted no percentage of syn is stated...makes me suspicious. Full Syn is so expensive, but my Troopster is worth it. What do you say? I want to do about 5-7000 miles between changes.
I have owned 5 TLC's, in all of them I have used Mobil One synthetic. (pick your brew weight, 0w-30, 5w-30,10w-30) I have used either fram (considered crap in light of your oil filter) or OEM filters and have done 15k mile intervals. One I sold with 250 k miles app, another has 125k (owned by a family member) another has 95k, another has 39k, and the last has 35k. Oil consumption for these inline 6 engines has been app 1/4-1/2 qt @ app the 14k mark. So all in all Ihave app .5 million miles of experience. Absolutely no sludge WHATSOEVER! Since TLC's at major tunes require valve checks and subsequent adjustments, the valve covers have been off and in the words of the Toyota dealer mechanics: it is as clean as a whistle and the valves have not needed adjustment!!??
Another car I have is a Z06 and it sees oil change intervals of between 12-15k. not counting the "newbie" oil change at app 1600 miles.
Sj and SL are the next higher oil certifications done by API so putting one of these in the engine is no problem. You are safe. Surprised a 2001 model does not at least specifiy an SJ oil though. Myself, my oil is not API certified, it has no donut on it but that does not bother me, results are what count. Amsoil of course.
FleetwoodMacSi: "Years ago, a few companies used agricultural products to manufacture diesters and polyol esters. The lubes derived from those molecular structures gave engines a tremendous film strength that kept frictional wear surfaces from touching each other far better than petroleum. That seemed worthwhile. Today, synthetics seem to be degenerated down into brewed copies of the preferred molecules found in petroleum, and special processing of petroleum that some consider a basis for claiming synthesis and thus 'synthetic.' We all draw our own conclusions from the facts, and we should."
Yes. This is why I use Red Line synthetic oil. I'd rather pay $8 per quart for something I KNOW is better than the mass-market stuff ... and I really dislike the direction the mass-market synthetics are headed. More hype, cheaper formulas.
Mr. Detailer, I'm not really satisfied with your answer That the major oil companies started with their dino oil formulas first. Is this just a theory of yours? It sounds OK, but synthetics are taking up an ever-increasing amount of shelf space in stores and they are becoming more and more popular with DIYers.
Besides, didn't they have a while to prepare for the coming of the new standard? I'm surprised more PAO-based synthetics didn't pass this as they are currently formulated.
Gotta hand it too ya! That's because I agree totally that the best of breed is REDLINE. With polyol esters, you get something worth extra money, when your in the mood to use the best there is.
for all the interesting comments on this subject. Got to admit, I'm learning more everyday as to what ,why and how people think and believe about synth's, minerals and blending thier own from both. Great info! Helps me better understand some of the mis conceptions the average person picks up.
Still have not seen any documented (fair and balanced) proof that RedLine can go the 200 K as (say Mobil 1 ) And in Amsoil's case I believe there is enough experience to indicate it can do the same. Again, I am not bashing Redline and would switch to it in a heartbeat if someone could prove to me it's as good as Amsoil and Mobil with respect to Engine wear, catalytic performance and seal life for the 200K. I really doubt that will happen. I applaud Bror for taking on the experiment himself. I'm just not ready to.
Thanks for the good natured swipe, Crazee Bob, I'll file that one away. >;^)
adc100, again, I think that is becasue Mobil (and maybe 2-3 other companies) have the resources to do that sort of testing. My Honda with the piston-slap noise is 90% proof that some wear occurs when using Mobil 1, even with modest (5-6,500 mile) drain intervals. <:^(
I think its probable that some sort of anomoly occured that was beyond the reach of Mobil 1 to correct. I would guess that another conventional oil would have allowed more symptoms/damage than the Mobil 1. It also would appear that the RedLine is able to deal with this symptim better than the Mobil 1 and quite possibly is a better lub than the Mobil. Personally, I would think the odds are reasonable that this problem will lead to the ultimate failure of the engine even with RedLine.
ok this is a honest question as it seems like there are some people on here with Very serious knowledge about oil... OK if you had to choose between ONLY these 2 brands of oils (Mobil1) and
(AMsoil) "the series 2000" oil. which would you pick and WHY.. lay down the info.. "please".
The Mobil I believe is API certified whereas the Amsoil 0W30 is not due to the additive package I believe. Thus, if you are extremely concerned about warranty issues (should not be ) but many people do not want the hassle should an issue occur, then go with Mobil.
I use the Amsoil 0W in one car only because I have used their 10W30 for many years with great results and I wanted quicker lubrication to the upper areas ASAP on this one car. But, different additive package between the two and I don't have the additives or numbers to back anything up. I do have a 3 inch binder of oil analsyis results though.
Been reading a lot about Amsoil and Mobil 1 but when questions about Castrol come up no one seems to answer. I've checked Castol's site and, of course, they only say they're the best in the business,yada, yada, yada. Is there any place on the web to do a comparison of oils? Even if not, personal opinion about Castrol--good or bad--would be welcome.
If you've got the time and patience, you should go backward in this thread and read the past postings. I recall distinctly that at one time, Castrol Synthetic was a very hot topic.
I've been away from the board for several weeks and have spend a great deal of time catching up on the posts....there was a discussion questioning the extended drain capability of the hydrocracked oils...my VW calls for a 10K oil change under all driving conditions using Castrol 5W40 oil, which is obviously not a PAO. VW must be comfortable w/the extended drain with that oil, but I'm not, so I use Mobil Delvac 1 (it's a diesel.)
Secondly, from an engine wear standpoint, wouldn't one always be better off using some type of 40wt synthetic? Mobil has a 0W40 or the Valvoline 5W40? The Europeans seem to have adopted this as a better oil. I realize the Americans won't go for that because of fuel economy standards, but strictly speaking in reference to protection, don't you all think the 40wts would be better? I'm thinking about running the 0W40 in my truck for that very reason.
As armtdm implied-no one knows which is the best. I don't think you can go wrong with either. Personally Mobil 1 and Amsoil are the only two I would use. As far as the warranty with Amsoil-personally I would not worry about it. If you are-perhaps you can get some receipts from someone or from oil for another vehicle.
one2one no real comparisons on oil that I have seen anyhere. Since Syntec is not a PAO or Ester (true synthetic)-in my opinion you can not put them in the same class with Mobil 1 or Amsoil. There is lots of discussion above on the board.
mdecamps The Europeans have adopted this philosophy possibly due to the need for shear stability at extremely high engine speeds. When 30 wt has been shown by Mobil to result on almost no wear after 200K, I would question the need for 40wt. Depending on the application-heavier may not be better. It may not flow into the areas needing lubrication as well as 30 wt.
Article points out that Castrol Syntec is not a synthetic oil. They won the law suit over Mobil for the right to use the word synthetic and the courts agreed, synthetic can mean not within normal process. Syntec is a hydrocracked petroleum oil not synthetic. They use false and misleading adverstising IMHO and I refuse to touch it plus they sell it for the same price as synthetic.
The following was taken from the API site. MOBIL 10W-30 SH** MOBIL 10W-30 SJ* MOBIL 10W-40 SH* MOBIL 10W-40 SJ MOBIL 20W-50 SH MOBIL 20W-50 SJ MOBIL 5W-30 SH** MOBIL 5W-30 SJ* MOBIL 1 10W-30 SH/CF** MOBIL 1 15W-50 SH/CF MOBIL 1 5W-30 SH/CF** MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-30 SJ* MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-40 SJ MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 20W-50 SJ MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-20 SJ* MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-30 SJ* MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 10W-30 SJ/CF* MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 5W-30 SJ/CF* MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 30 SJ MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 40 SJ MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SH MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SJ MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 40 SH
I find it hard to believe that Mobil is putting out a non API oil and I will have to look at a container to see if they have it on there. Possible the API site does not get updated very frequently but could alao be Mobil decided not to bother with API and/or cannot meet the tests as is the case with Amsoil due to the additives.
I have been using Amsoil 0w-30 for a couple of oil changes now, but I have recently become worried about it not being API certified. I would hate to have my dealer deny a warranty claim on the engine because of this. A couple of people recently have said not to worry about it. I am curious as to why I should not worry about it? Would most dealers not even bother checking? Should I ask my dealer about it? It would be hard to lie about my oil when I have the Amsoil filter on the engine as well.
Regarding my Civic and piston slap, adc100 said: "I would guess that another conventional oil would have allowed more symptoms/damage than the Mobil 1."
I guess the reason I don't believe that's the case is because of the other people (often kids getting their cars second hand) having the same symptom at the same mile mark (around 80,000 miles). I'm sure these cars have quite a varied history when it comes to oil brands and change intervals and it appears that my car, which got 'premium' treatment, fared no better than average. That's the real disappointment. I know I drive it a little hard (high-speed, high-RPMs at times) but with my oil change schedule, that should not have been a problem.
Of course, we'll never know if there would be any difference had I used Red Line oil since the car was nearly new. The good thing is that these Honda engines seem to soldier on for many tens of thousands of miles after the piston slap noise becomes audible. Now using Red Line, the noise isn't even audible. >:^)
On Castrol, I think that everyone has to make up their own mind on this issue since the chuckleheads at SAE and API refused to fill their role as referees and keep the synthetic part of the industry from plummeting into a hype-heavy, clouded mess.
Here's the story: Refining of crude oils have come a long way in the past couple of decades and some of the heavily processed (hydrocracked/isomerized) mineral oils are significantly more uniform and stable at both high and low temperatures than previous types of petroleum. Castrol, seeing that these high-tech crude oils were better than typical mineral oils and cost half as much as traditional synthetics (PAO and esters) to produced, figured they could get away with calling this hydrocracked crude (Group II and III base oils) "synthetic" and make a fortune. They claim they changed the petroleum enough to qualify it as a new molecule. Compared to how traditional synthetics are made, I disagree. They simply made a very high quality conventional oil.
Just so you know, PAO stands for polyalphaolefin which is a liquid made from ethylene gas and esters are formed from the combination of certain acids and alcohols. These processes actually synthesize a lubricant from something that is nothing like a lubricant. They are a far cry from merely improved/refined crude oil.
Well, Castrol's gamble seems to have paid off. Castrol used to buy PAO from Mobil and they switched to buying a hydrocracked crude from Shell. Mobil lost a customer, and gained a competitior in the synthetics business who was producing a product at half Mobil's cost. Mobil sued Castrol and because the industry standards people failed to do their job and come up with an actual standard, Mobil failed to make their case that Castrol's use of the word "synthetic" was misleading and lost in court. Score a big win for the sleazeball bean counters and people who like to cut corners and play semantic games. <:^(
So, the term "Synthetic" has been proclaimed a 'marketing' term, not a technical one. Since then (1997-1998), other manufacturers (many of them) have been substituting hydrocracked crude for PAO in their formulas. So, I don't trust any of them anymore.
Personally, I think these hydrocracked oils are good, just not worth $4-4.50 per quart retail. If I want that kind of oil, I'll buy Valvoline Max-Life and pay half that ... and get a strong additive package to boot.
Mobil put Patrick Bedard's article (from the November 2000 issue of <i>Car & Driver) on their website in the Mobil 1 section. If you are into oils/lubes (especially synthetics), consider it 'required reading'.
Moving on: Between Amsoil and Mobil 1? Well, if you want to keep your car a long, long time and want the best protection for your engine, I'd have to pick Amsoil. According to all public information, they are both PAO-based synthetics, but lab tests show that Amsoil's additive package is significantly stronger. The only caveat is that this stuff might prove troublesome to your emissions equipment (catalytic converter and perhaps O2 sensor) over time.
My thinking is that these components tend to go bad eventually and they are cheaper to replace than an engine. The difference is hundreds of dollars versus thousands.
As for the Europeans, I don't trust their recommendations. I believe political (enviromental) concerns override what may be best for vehicles. They want to generate as little waste as possible so they recommend very long drain intervals ... even with fairly conventional oil. Also, using wide-spread oils (0W30, 5W40, 5W50, 0W40, 10W60, etc ...) in high revving engines travelling at high speeds over long periods of time (extended drain intervals) is a recipe for premature wear and engine failure. The viscosity improvers that make thin oils act like thicker oils when warm are prone to being sheared down by RPMs and heat stress. This starts to happen immediately and the breakdown can be significant after just a few thousand miles.
killakell... your owners manual is a contract between u and them for service stating what they will do if you meet the conditions set forth in the service guide. in that manual it states use "api certified", not an oil that meets api, but one with the donut. You may be able to get away with using a non api oil but is the hassles worth the headaches? you might want to look at the toyota sludge thread and you'll see one that had an rx300 used amsoil with extended drains and got sludged. now, if it was the oil's fault or not, he opened the door for denial of warr and was fighting them for cost of an engine. he may win or not, either way, he has had to go way out of his way to battle this. Obviously alot of people here have not had to deal with this.. Myself, I learn from example and it only takes one.
My advice, play the game with the rules set forth unless you like the challenge and gamble associated with your 20 to 50,000 investment.
It's just too simple to just following it until the warr is out then do what you want.
Amsoil does carry an xl7500 series oil that is api. i don't know if 0w30 is one or not though.
Comments
--- Bror Jace
1. So they can mate engines to either manual or automatic transmissions?
2. Some other reason dependent on why cycle engines and car engines are different?
And also, in the case of manual transmissions, the gears act like meat grinders on the lubrication. Therefore, high pressure additives are needed to give longevity to the lube. Those additives are not desirable in quantity in engine cylinders. Motorcycle engines require a compromise between engine pressure susceptible engine oil and gear oil (hypoid).
I've also been told by my dealership that once I start using full synthetic oil, I can't go back to regular dino oil.
Here's my experience.
I have older cars, one has synthetic, another uses synthetic blend, and the oldest uses dino. The valve covers on all cars leaked between 115 and 125k. The one with synthetic actually went the longest. So the newer synthetic oils are definitely NOT harder on seals than blends or conventional.
The difference is that once a leak started the synthetic definitely leaked faster. So once it started leaking I had to replace the seal quicker.
Moving from syn to conventional and back again is not a problem. Most synthetics are compatible with any conventional.
Higher mileage oils that are hydrocracked often have special seal conditioner additives. But if you are in your warranty period I wouldn't use them even though I consider them to be impressive, and recently converted my blend car to Maxlife. They are not SL compatible, and list them as being SJ standard. They have more anti wear ingredients and appear to be excellent oils with anti-sludging capabilities similar to syntheric. I just wouldn't give Toyota a reason to deny a claim if the famous error occurs.
I spoke with Mobil and their SL grade syn should come out this April. Valvoline has SL in at least the 10W-30 grade available now. The SL complies with the GF-3 standard which has increased anti-sludging properties. The Mobile technician I spoke to said that it has taken some time because they actually had to improve the oil to meet the standard.
Hope this helps.
I have used Synthetic since 1984. When it got a quart low between 6,000 mile changes, I customarily put a quart of regular in. No problem. Car went 268,000 miles before being destroyed in an argument with a cow.
Relative got over 200,000 on a *DODGE NEON* ! before it too was destroyed, this time for failure to replace timing chain.
Dodge truck has mostly had synthetic in it, for ten years, but when I am in too much of a hurry to change it myself, I ave put regular in it for a while. Still no problem.
I suppose there are improvements with some of the newer formulations, but really, do you want your car to live forever? I mean, is 200K miles in a Neon a good thing or a bad thing?
By the way, I have a friend who continues to use his 200+K 1982 Chevette as his daily driver for commuting to work. He uses NAPA petroleum (Valvoline) and NAPA filters. He changes both every 7500 miles, and always has. Never has he used synthetic in this vehicle.
Also,is there any consensus on a reasonable change frequency with a filter midway,for Amsoil?Is 8,000 with filter at 4,000 pushing the limit? Thanks!!
Wait a minute. Their dino oil and their blend have been labeled "SL" for months now ... but their PREMIUM SYNTHETIC formula that costs 3-4 times as much can't pass the test?
That is too funny! >:^D I'm just glad I switched brands in the last two years. >;^)
Mr. Detailer, please clarify if I've "missed" something.
--- Bror Jace
For those that are interested, I did a cost analysis comparison between dino and synthetic oil. My results were surprising. If I stayed with regular dino oil, chances are that I'd go for 6000 kms oil changes (3500 miles) since this is what a trusted mechanic said, and it just makes sense to me. Toyota recommends 7500 mile oil changes on newer cars, which I find crazy. If I'd go with synthetic, I'd change my oil every 8000 kms. (5000 miles) instead of the 6000 kms. with regular dino oil. What has been said here for the most part leads me to believe that it's a waste of money to have the oil changed any sooner if using synthetic. I then estimated the price for the next 8 oil changes, and compared the results. For dino oil, it would cost $10.58 per 1000 kms., compared to $10.94 per 1000 kms. for synthetic oil. The 40 cents per 1000 kms. extra is really worth it, especially considering the synthetic would protect my engine so much better.
I've tighten the valve cover bolts before, but what it really needed was new valve cover gaskets. The front cylinder bank is easy enough to be. The rear....takes some time and equipment I don't have at my apartment (engine lift). The front bearing seal was a $10 fix while the timing belt was replaced. The rear seal was done while the clutch was replaced ($800 with towing).
canc:
What I meant by cost analysis, if I were to sell the car, I get "X" amount of dollars. A clutch replacement I got 3 months earlier costs $800. A new power steering pump costs $800, and so on. Then my car, if I sold it privately (find a sucker who wanted a car with 210,000 miles) is less than $1000, actually the TMV was about $700 (with some body rust also). The clutch was a necessity item. It just wasn't worth to put in money which I cannot get back.
Now I gotta find a cheaper, source which I can drive to, to buy more Delvac 1, than the Stroudsburg, PA Truck Stop ($30 for a gallon). It was fun arguing with a different counter-person that my Golf TDI can use Delvac 1 5w40.
It's just a matter of lower volume for the oil. Smaller overall profits.
Yes, if you change your oil yourself and double your normal 3,000 mile drain interval, the cost difference is a wash. The convenience of delaying the drain is even better reason. For some reason though, ordering up synthetic at a quickee lube place is MUCH more expensive. I am getting too old to change my own oil.
Re: 'anecdotal' nature of extended engine life. I have no doubt that people take Chevettes and the like stupendous mileages using regular oil, and one must be cautious about anecdotal evidence however; in my experience the difference was quite startling for two consecutive vehicles. Friends who bought cohort vehicles at the same time and drove them under less severe conditions had nowhere near the longevity I did.
Too bad synthetic doesn't work to protect the cosmetics of the vehicle. Driving along in a rolling garbage dump with a purring motor is a mixed pleasure.
Re: lack of synthetic standard. I take it that this is a criticism that there is no clear distinction between dino juice and synthetic.
Maybe, but I have little brand loyalty and use whatever name brand synthetic is on sale. I still had excellent success.
Anyway, I am a little skeptical that this is a 'scam' There are several competing synthetics these days, and very little price difference. This suggests to me that the price premium is likely to be cost-based, rather than rip-off based. Otherwise you would see 2.50 'synthetics' being marketed.
While you guys who know are at it, I read lots of synthetic vs. dino discussion, and where does a syn/blend fall in this debate? I noted no percentage of syn is stated...makes me suspicious. Full Syn is so expensive, but my Troopster is worth it. What do you say? I want to do about 5-7000 miles between changes.
I have owned 5 TLC's, in all of them I have used Mobil One synthetic. (pick your brew weight, 0w-30, 5w-30,10w-30) I have used either fram (considered crap in light of your oil filter) or OEM filters and have done 15k mile intervals. One I sold with 250 k miles app, another has 125k (owned by a family member) another has 95k, another has 39k, and the last has 35k. Oil consumption for these inline 6 engines has been app 1/4-1/2 qt @ app the 14k mark. So all in all Ihave app .5 million miles of experience. Absolutely no sludge WHATSOEVER! Since TLC's at major tunes require valve checks and subsequent adjustments, the valve covers have been off and in the words of the Toyota dealer mechanics: it is as clean as a whistle and the valves have not needed adjustment!!??
Another car I have is a Z06 and it sees oil change intervals of between 12-15k. not counting the "newbie" oil change at app 1600 miles.
Yes. This is why I use Red Line synthetic oil. I'd rather pay $8 per quart for something I KNOW is better than the mass-market stuff ... and I really dislike the direction the mass-market synthetics are headed. More hype, cheaper formulas.
Mr. Detailer, I'm not really satisfied with your answer That the major oil companies started with their dino oil formulas first. Is this just a theory of yours? It sounds OK, but synthetics are taking up an ever-increasing amount of shelf space in stores and they are becoming more and more popular with DIYers.
Besides, didn't they have a while to prepare for the coming of the new standard? I'm surprised more PAO-based synthetics didn't pass this as they are currently formulated.
--- Bror Jace
Great info! Helps me better understand some of the mis conceptions the average person picks up.
Again, I am not bashing Redline and would switch to it in a heartbeat if someone could prove to me it's as good as Amsoil and Mobil with respect to Engine wear, catalytic performance and seal life for the 200K. I really doubt that will happen. I applaud Bror for taking on the experiment himself. I'm just not ready to.
Later,
Al
adc100, again, I think that is becasue Mobil (and maybe 2-3 other companies) have the resources to do that sort of testing. My Honda with the piston-slap noise is 90% proof that some wear occurs when using Mobil 1, even with modest (5-6,500 mile) drain intervals. <:^(
--- <b>Bror Jace
(AMsoil) "the series 2000" oil. which would you pick and WHY.. lay down the info.. "please".
oh btw 0w30 weight.
http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html
I use the Amsoil 0W in one car only because I have used their 10W30 for many years with great results and I wanted quicker lubrication to the upper areas ASAP on this one car. But, different additive package between the two and I don't have the additives or numbers to back anything up. I do have a 3 inch binder of oil analsyis results though.
Secondly, from an engine wear standpoint, wouldn't one always be better off using some type of 40wt synthetic? Mobil has a 0W40 or the Valvoline 5W40? The Europeans seem to have adopted this as a better oil. I realize the Americans won't go for that because of fuel economy standards, but strictly speaking in reference to protection, don't you all think the 40wts would be better? I'm thinking about running the 0W40 in my truck for that very reason.
Mark
one2one no real comparisons on oil that I have seen anyhere. Since Syntec is not a PAO or Ester (true synthetic)-in my opinion you can not put them in the same class with Mobil 1 or Amsoil. There is lots of discussion above on the board.
mdecamps The Europeans have adopted this philosophy possibly due to the need for shear stability at extremely high engine speeds. When 30 wt has been shown by Mobil to result on almost no wear after 200K, I would question the need for 40wt. Depending on the application-heavier may not be better. It may not flow into the areas needing lubrication as well as 30 wt.
Mobil does not have any API certified 0w30 oil.
The following was taken from the API site.
MOBIL 10W-30 SH**
MOBIL 10W-30 SJ*
MOBIL 10W-40 SH*
MOBIL 10W-40 SJ
MOBIL 20W-50 SH
MOBIL 20W-50 SJ
MOBIL 5W-30 SH**
MOBIL 5W-30 SJ*
MOBIL 1 10W-30 SH/CF**
MOBIL 1 15W-50 SH/CF
MOBIL 1 5W-30 SH/CF**
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-30 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 10W-40 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 20W-50 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-20 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN 5W-30 SJ*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 10W-30 SJ/CF*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN BLEND 5W-30 SJ/CF*
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 30 SJ
MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN HD 40 SJ
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SH
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 30 SJ
MOBIL HEAVY DUTY 40 SH
*Energy Conserving
I guess the reason I don't believe that's the case is because of the other people (often kids getting their cars second hand) having the same symptom at the same mile mark (around 80,000 miles). I'm sure these cars have quite a varied history when it comes to oil brands and change intervals and it appears that my car, which got 'premium' treatment, fared no better than average. That's the real disappointment. I know I drive it a little hard (high-speed, high-RPMs at times) but with my oil change schedule, that should not have been a problem.
Of course, we'll never know if there would be any difference had I used Red Line oil since the car was nearly new. The good thing is that these Honda engines seem to soldier on for many tens of thousands of miles after the piston slap noise becomes audible. Now using Red Line, the noise isn't even audible. >:^)
On Castrol, I think that everyone has to make up their own mind on this issue since the chuckleheads at SAE and API refused to fill their role as referees and keep the synthetic part of the industry from plummeting into a hype-heavy, clouded mess.
Here's the story: Refining of crude oils have come a long way in the past couple of decades and some of the heavily processed (hydrocracked/isomerized) mineral oils are significantly more uniform and stable at both high and low temperatures than previous types of petroleum. Castrol, seeing that these high-tech crude oils were better than typical mineral oils and cost half as much as traditional synthetics (PAO and esters) to produced, figured they could get away with calling this hydrocracked crude (Group II and III base oils) "synthetic" and make a fortune. They claim they changed the petroleum enough to qualify it as a new molecule. Compared to how traditional synthetics are made, I disagree. They simply made a very high quality conventional oil.
Just so you know, PAO stands for polyalphaolefin which is a liquid made from ethylene gas and esters are formed from the combination of certain acids and alcohols. These processes actually synthesize a lubricant from something that is nothing like a lubricant. They are a far cry from merely improved/refined crude oil.
Well, Castrol's gamble seems to have paid off. Castrol used to buy PAO from Mobil and they switched to buying a hydrocracked crude from Shell. Mobil lost a customer, and gained a competitior in the synthetics business who was producing a product at half Mobil's cost. Mobil sued Castrol and because the industry standards people failed to do their job and come up with an actual standard, Mobil failed to make their case that Castrol's use of the word "synthetic" was misleading and lost in court. Score a big win for the sleazeball bean counters and people who like to cut corners and play semantic games. <:^(
So, the term "Synthetic" has been proclaimed a 'marketing' term, not a technical one. Since then (1997-1998), other manufacturers (many of them) have been substituting hydrocracked crude for PAO in their formulas. So, I don't trust any of them anymore.
Personally, I think these hydrocracked oils are good, just not worth $4-4.50 per quart retail. If I want that kind of oil, I'll buy Valvoline Max-Life and pay half that ... and get a strong additive package to boot.
Mobil put Patrick Bedard's article (from the November 2000 issue of <i>Car & Driver) on their website in the Mobil 1 section. If you are into oils/lubes (especially synthetics), consider it 'required reading'.
Moving on: Between Amsoil and Mobil 1? Well, if you want to keep your car a long, long time and want the best protection for your engine, I'd have to pick Amsoil. According to all public information, they are both PAO-based synthetics, but lab tests show that Amsoil's additive package is significantly stronger. The only caveat is that this stuff might prove troublesome to your emissions equipment (catalytic converter and perhaps O2 sensor) over time.
My thinking is that these components tend to go bad eventually and they are cheaper to replace than an engine. The difference is hundreds of dollars versus thousands.
As for the Europeans, I don't trust their recommendations. I believe political (enviromental) concerns override what may be best for vehicles. They want to generate as little waste as possible so they recommend very long drain intervals ... even with fairly conventional oil. Also, using wide-spread oils (0W30, 5W40, 5W50, 0W40, 10W60, etc ...) in high revving engines travelling at high speeds over long periods of time (extended drain intervals) is a recipe for premature wear and engine failure. The viscosity improvers that make thin oils act like thicker oils when warm are prone to being sheared down by RPMs and heat stress. This starts to happen immediately and the breakdown can be significant after just a few thousand miles.
--- Bror Jace
killakell... your owners manual is a contract between u and them for service stating what they will do if you meet the conditions set forth in the service guide. in that manual it states use "api certified", not an oil that meets api, but one with the donut. You may be able to get away with using a non api oil but is the hassles worth the headaches? you might want to look at the toyota sludge thread and you'll see one that had an rx300 used amsoil with extended drains and got sludged. now, if it was the oil's fault or not, he opened the door for denial of warr and was fighting them for cost of an engine. he may win or not, either way, he has had to go way out of his way to battle this. Obviously alot of people here have not had to deal with this.. Myself, I learn from example and it only takes one.
My advice, play the game with the rules set forth unless you like the challenge and gamble associated with your 20 to 50,000 investment.
It's just too simple to just following it until the warr is out then do what you want.
Amsoil does carry an xl7500 series oil that is api. i don't know if 0w30 is one or not though.
bobistheoilguy