1) How deep was the wear scar on that piston? No one doubt's that there is wear occuring in an engine, nothing lasts forever, but the important factor is how fast it is occuring. No matter what oil or additives are used there will be some engine wear.
2)Aren't you using the Timken machine in a different manner than it was designed? Isn't it designed to be run for a fixed period of time and then the wear scar on the bearing measured not for stall load?
3)Aren't most EP additives designed to function at only at the extremely high temps that occur under high load inside an engine and not at room temp? Is it not possible that Mobil1's or any other oil's additives are not functioning on you Timken Machine but would be fine inside an engine?
4)Isn't you calling the new formula of Mobil1 "garbage oil" alittle out of line since you(or anyone else that will say) do not know what it's new antiwear package consists of? Is it not possible that Mobil will protect engines in the real world?
5)Are you aware of any test that shows Mobil underpeforms in actual engines?
I don't think anyone here had ever accused you of performing mojo magic. I for one never had anything bad to say about your oil and never doubted the results of your "testing". I did say though, that I believe there must be a point where too much barrier is not necessarily beneficial, except maybe when at a trade show with the One-Armed-Bandit!
have u ever designed an engine? or even given thought to the parameters?
The fact is that the crank bearing that u show as worn is DESIGNED to wear out. when 2 surfaces are rubbing, what do you want to wear out? The bearing or the crank shaft? Naturally the sleeve is a smaller component compared to the crankshaft. So it will cost less to replace, considering that the labor is equal to tear down and put back the engine.
The cam on the other hand is surface hardened and thus is not going to show any wear. The rollers are also made of surface hardened steel...so wear is equal on both of them, if any.
schaeffers is, but to share with you on how there is differences in oils and if you ever can get a device to simulate what i'm doing, as adc said he had, i am encouraging you to try it. I know it is very difficult to see how this might help show another aspect to oil because i'm sure everyone likes what they are using and think the made the right choice which is true, the right one from what you know about it, so this is why i asked for a 3rd party to share his point of view so you'd understand i'm not doing this to show anyone up. This also is only one part of the tests i'd do then after this wear test, i move on to oil analysis for base oil tests under real conditions.Amsoil did well on protection(even better than mobils new oil), which was better than max life but not as good as the moly did. The other point is as arm pointed out that no one is willing to share openly the results of the scientific cam wear tests from what i see but only the results are on base oil tests.
ARM, I agree, for some it would be difficult, but there is a lot of local retail stores setup for that. There is one in Texarkan Ark that will sell it for 3.00 per qt(at any quanitiy 1 or 50qts), this includes but not limited to the moly ep additive and fuel/engine cleaner additives but shipping is involved which offsets the costs.
I can appreciate and agree with what you are saying and this is one of the main reasons why I myself don't want to bother selling to anyone over the Inet unless they want or have a $250.00 product order which has no shipping or handling charges involved. (not 1000.00). it's not anything to do with commissions so much as it is shipping costs.
CHARLES,
1> No, as stated this wasn't a scientific test but a relative test, so no actual measurement was taken but observed as in the bottome picture on http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
I agree wear will be present but at what rate? I personally know of 3 guys with 500,000 miles + on gas engines that has never taken off the valve covers. 1 nissan,1dodge van,1chev p/u. all used this oil with the soluble mos.
2&3>timken was designed with a computer and heater setup to ensure proper consistant equations. the "one arm bandit" as some refer to this is used in what ever manner you want. The point of this issue is to do the test in the same manner against oil a as with oil b and so forth to make general comparisions. I have used this to demostrate to many people about shear properties and many of which have seen this used at the trade shows for ep additive sales.
I do not do the testing when showing this as many other salesmen do it instead. I let the person looking at this hold that handle and do the tests themselves. This means you would control this test. What you see becomes more realistic when you are doing it, as with FEN, never having done this, walked in, I explained the basic mechanics of how the spinning wheel is the "crank" the little bowl was the "oil pan" and the lever with the bearing attached was the "top piston rod bearing" which you'd be pushing down to duplicate the "squeezing or shearing" effect
on the oil thus see how it holds up against this.
now to add realisim to this, I tell them first to apply a light load allowing it to start heat up and create the heat needed to activate what ever barrier lube it uses. then they are to lift it up momentarly then apply pressure again constantly for the purpose of the piston rotating around and oil is squeezed then comes back in on the up stroke, then squeezed again and so on. As you do this, the oil will heat up to 180deg (i have taken temp readings with digital). This is more than enough heat to activate antiwear additives.
4> You are right, I'm out of line making such a derogatory statement like that.
5> No, this Mobil 1(10w30) with SynerSyn hasn't been available that long for such testing in the real world. As some may know, my opinion about mobil has always been high until i got this one and I personally lost all respect for this oil as oppose the older one.
BREN,
I agree, too much barrier isn't good and usually will cause an oil to oxidize sooner because of the barrier additives will overtake the antioxidant/detergent additives and won't allow them to do their job as well. Case in point, redlines uses 3times the moly as schaeffers. Qmi loaded much heavier with ptfe than slick 50 and so forth.
BTW, It takes very little moly to cause the plating action on the "one arm bandit", therefore they don't have to overload the barrier additive to get it to work.
from my little tests i noticed that moly plates up faster and harder than zddp, therefore you'll find the zddp additive will allow more wear to occur before getting enough plated before protection resistance drops.
CHIKOO,
I have built my share of engines and understand and agree that certain parts are to be worn before others. My point i was commenting on was that all these seq tests were to do against a metal surface that isn't suppose to wear. BTW,i believe we are talking about flat tappet not roller.
Thanks for the comments. I guess my point is that the jury is still out on Mobil1. I guess I give them the benifit of doubt since they are the ones that tried to set Castrol and the others straight about synthetics, the courts lets us down.
How much of Schaeffers moly ep additive would you reccomend blending with Mobil1 10W-30 in a 2002 Jeep Liberty 3.7L V6 with an oil capacity of 5qts? I am in stop and go traffic in near 100F heat with the air conditioner on frequently during the summer. I also go off road and can have a mud clogged radiator while doing so. And just to make sure I qualify for severe driving conditions I tow a trailer every now and then. I like Mobil1 and it has held up beautifully in past vehicles in similar conditions. It's also easy to get and I never pay over $3.50 qt.
Also has the moly additive been tested to ensure that it won't react with or adversely affect the additives in Mobil1? I'm a little leary of playing home chemist but I am interested on how I could beef up Mobil1's EP performance to go with it's excellent base oil.
You asked me: "Do you think dipstick coloration is a reliable indication of oil quality?"
I think you'll find that the color of a dipstick is most likely the color of the material from which it is made. Some say that dipsticks can become discolored, but I have never particularly noted that phenomenon.
Thank you most kindly for reminding me that: "...(the "W" stands for "Winter, not "Weight", BTW)."
Your mentioning that calls to mind the reason we often use the word, weight, when speaking or writing those indices for oils. It is a linguistic convention, based on common usage and general understanding among people involved with lubrication that the number in front of the "W" tells us the "weight (thickness) of the lubricant in cold condition (we agree to consider winter a cold time). The second number might follow this pattern and have an "H" placed after it for hot, or an "S" for summer, but by that same convention, we agree to let that just be understood.
Reading about Bob's tests reminds me of those Prolong oil additive commercials. The guy had a metal bearing spinning in oil and had a torque wrench connected to another metal surface that rubbed against it. They showed every oil quickly allowing the bearing to stop with very little torque applied to the wrench. Then the guy brought out his magical q-tip full of prolong and touched it to the bearing and it could not be stopped no matter how much pressure was applied.
So was that just a bunch of crap? I seem to remember that Prolong ended up being a bunch of crap. Bob, have you ever tried prolong in your friction machine? I am just curious, since the description of your tests reminds me of that commercial.
Another thing.. it would be really cool if you could videotape some of your testing and post the videos on your website.
select tech data sheets and look at the #132 moly ep additive.
I have used it in many types of oil with no ill effects. The company has been producing this for an extremely long time and has never changed it from what i know. costs around 5.00 per bottle.
Depending on the quality, a .avi video file can get around 1 minute of video per 2 mb file size. There is still the matter of getting the video from the vcr tape to a video format on the computer. I have never messed with it myself, but I am assuming that takes a video card with an RCA video input jack and the proper software to save the video file. So if you have all that crap, I sure would like to see your tests!
In today's mail, I received a personal response from David Lewis who is a product claim specialist for Consumer Services of Oakland, California:
"Thank you for contacting us to discuss our product, STP Oil Treatment. We appreciate your question: The STP Oil Extender product in the Gold Bottle added the Molybdenum disulfide you seek and another additive; zinc dialkyldithiophosphate in slightly higher concentrations than today's SJ rated motor oils. Unfortunately, the label does not list the Molybdenum additive. The label lists an olefin copolymer viscosity enhancer by mistake. The viscosity index improver is present in the original formula blue bottle but not the extender product. The labeling graphics department regrets the error. We have pulled the product because of the mislabeling error. You may be able to locate the oil extender in secondary distribution such as drug stores, rest stops, dollar discount stores etc...."
They also sent me a coupon. So there we have it. If the product is not available, it will be, when the labelling is corrected. I am very pleased with the results thus far.
I was walking thru Walmart today when I noticed they are stocking the new supersyn Mobil1. The 10W-30 bottle says "higher mileage" formula. I have been using Mobil1 10W-30 since the second oil change for a two year old vehicle with GM's 3.8L. The service manual recommends 10W-30 oil.
The question is, is there any harm or benefit to switching to a 5W-30 grade in lieu of the 10W-30 the manufacturer recommends? I will probably stick with the 10W-30 thru the warranty period and then consider making a switch in grade if there is truly any benefit. My gut feel is that the 10W-30 is fine even though the new labeling says higher mileage engines.
I bet the oil cap on your vehicle says 5W-30. Probably/possibly a misprint. You're right 10W-30 will be fine. I use nothing except 10W-30 on my vehicles and my extended families- 3 of those vehicles are 2001 modles. But I could be wrong.
I have the equipment to record edit and display a video segment on avi, problem is to find a compression sequence that will make it viable. 1 min of recording so far is approx 22,000k. this will not work for internet, so i'll keep trying. If i come up with something i'll let you know.
As for the stp, I look forward to finding that.(of course only for testing) I think if they have the soluble moly in that, then great. It would certainly be an option i would consider using if i didn't have schaeffers, especially in light of the new stuff they are comming out with.
Once you have an AVI, you can reduce its size (without much quality reduction) by a great deal if you convert them to ASF (Advanced Stream FOrmat by Microsoft) or RM (Real Media).
The conversion softwares are free to download (at least before when I downloaded).
is a list of short videos that will take at the slowest 10 mins to download and for all others with the high spd connection, no time at all.
Now please understand, I did this for the purpose of you seeing what I am doing and am not trying to dog any but just show what I am seeing. If this little stream of videos work out pretty good, i may in the near future add more popular brands of oils. These videos are not of the highest quality but i believe they get the point across. Sorry for them not being proffessional with a pointer and lead in's and such but you get what you pay for.
btw, To understand what this is all about, I suggest you watch the timken basic video first to explain the basic priciple of what i am doing.
I have a 95 montero with a 3.5 L I bought it used ,with 69k it now has 77k I've had it for 1year.I took it to my mechanic for excessive smoke comeing from the tail pipe.The conclusion,and after they tore the motor down to the bare block was the oil control rings were welded to the piston with carbon.The inside of this engine looked clean only a amber color with a few crustys in the corners. no signs of ever over heating.I changed the oil 4 times using ow-30 synthetic,it burned about a Q every 600 miles.Why would this acure,you think the petrol oil just did'nt hold up?I mean their was no sludge in this motor, all the crud was on the bottom half of the pistons.I mean sure carbon is a byproduct of the combustion process,but sticking to the piston oil control ring and rendering it unfunctionable?Tony
I noted that one of the tests uses the 20W50 racing oil. By your own admission these racing oils do not have the wear protection that the other day to day oils have as racing oil is changed very frequently.. So, is this still a valid comparison, Should you, perhaps, have used the 10W30 or 0W30 in lieu of a racing oil?? Just curious, not a complaint.
listen to my statement closer, i stated it had less detergents but should present MORE antiwear since it being a race oil, giving MORE protection against shearing. I suspect that my southern accent can throw some of you northern boys. sorry.
lou, i have tested many oils and yes 15w40s as well. i will have to say, that to tell you how well it did, i'd have to re-test each one again, which i am entertaining the idea of doing some more of these vid's on other different types of oils so to share what i see as well, but that all depends on if people like to see these results or just think i'm trying to scam them. I really don't want to waste my time trying to help show things if all i ever get would to be critisized which so far has not been the case and have really got a kick out of producing these. It took me about 2 to 3hrs hrs total to setup,record the tests,swap them to my main computer where i upload to my site, and modify my page for access. not really much time from start to finish. i considered adding headers and such but i just left them alone and posted them as they were.
again, thanks for the advise on the file compression. the avg file less than 450kb which i thought was awsome.
Im sure it was discussed before but I cant seem to find it.
Is the NEW MOBIL 1 synthetic a blend of hydro cracked or 100% PAO? I could care less as long as the properties of the oil are the same or increased. Any comparison tests out there with the new vs old?
I just changed oil on my Previa using new SuperSyn. Yes, I noticed that it said "high mileage....", bit confused here myself as well. It is good thing that my Previa got over 100K miles on it but I also have a low mileage car as well. Also, I used one last bottle of SJ rated Mobile1(10-30w) and it appeared that new SuperSyn (10-30w) was darker colored than old SJ, is this my imagination?
Bob - Great job on those videos, those were very cool to see. I currently use Amsoil series 2000 0W-30 in my car so if you had any of that to test I would like to see that as well!
Based on what you showed us on your test and the fact that it is API certified, I am considering switching to the Schaeffers 5W-30. Do you know anyone in eastern Kansas that sells the stuff? One of my friends is an Amsoil dealer and he has been giving it to me for his cost which has been nice! What is the difference between the Supreme 7000 and the micron moly? I see both come in 5W-30.
Looking at the tech sheet I noticed that the Flash point is fairly high..
Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 475°/246°
Does this product have a synthetic carrier oil? Also does it contain any viscosity modifiers or "goo" that can break down? Basically what are it's potential downsides if any?
I called Mobil1 tonight because I am about to switch to Mobil1 in my new QX4 tomorrow. They said that both Tri-synthetic formula Mobil1 and Mobil1 with SuperSyn (the latest out by Mobil1) are guaranteed to go the full highway mileage even if you drive in severe conditions (and who doesn't the way it is defined) thereby doubling your miles between oil changes. This makes it the same $/yr in oil changes as standard oil and it extends the life of your engine too. I am switching to this and the Mobil1 high efficiency filter tomorrow. If you keep your receipts and ever have a problem, they pay for it. That is amazing and I just found out.
I will guarantee the warranty is not worth the paper it is printed on.
Catastrophic losses rarely occur and and are 99.9% of the time not caused by oil. Wear occurs over time and again can never be blaimed on oil failure. It is virtually impossible to prove the oil was the cause of the failure so these oil company warranties are worthless. You will never collect on them. A marketing gimmick. Amsoil has never once paid off on their warranty and they claim the only possible way they can ever pay off is if you can prove the oil was formulated incorrectly at the plant "EVERYTHING ELSE IS ENGINE DESIGN FAILURE" as they say is the reason for Toyota sludge.
was to help show and explain how i look at the barrier lube antiwear properties of oils and helps me when i am talking about wear protection. This wasn't ment to push or dog any particular oil but to help educate.
I have tried to maintain strick guidlines on myself as to not push product but if asked directly via email i will direct you to who ever you need to talk with or discuss more with you about any particular product so not to detract from this subject board. I have run across many boards that were infested with people wanting to push a particular oil or product and i don't want to be considered one of them.
I think arm can tell you that i even try not to get to heavily on pushing even on my own board.
I appreciate your comments and thoughts on these subjects and have really enjoyed visiting this site.
I think i'm going to look for an old mobil 1 tri synth oil and test it to see if they actuall ever had higher levels of antiwear than what they have now as so many people seem to think they are near the same or better, and If the current new one they have is better, than I can't imagine how they lasted this long. I do beleive thier old formula was better than this new current one, but until i go back and retest I won't know for sure. I suspect that it's the base oil that is better but the antiwear barrier protection? mmmm, well see.
I think post 3323 objectively presents data to indicate (but not absolutely prove) that Mobil 1 TriSyn is better with respect to wear than the PreTriSyn variety.
"and If the current new one they have is better, than I can't imagine how they lasted this long"- How can you do any better than after 200K miles have all wear parts come up to factory specs for new parts? Have any other oils demonstrated this??
I also agree that the statement From Mobil is very sticky (at best): First of all its not written anywhere-I assume. Second its difficult if not impossible to prove. I believe if you could give them (Mobil) absolte proof that their product failed to protect the engine under normal driving conditions they would probably pay (as would Amsoil). But it ain't happening.
I also noticed how the new Mobil1 formula is slightly darker than the SJ grade. Last time I changed my oil, I had four quarts of the older SJ grade in the garage already and had to buy one extra quart of the SL grade. This SL grade was purchased in the one month window before they changed the name to SuperSyn. There was definitely a noticeable difference in color between the two oils.
I'm not sure why the new oil is darker, maybe different additive package???
Good, I am not seeing things at least. My oil really was darker than SJ graded and it was bought in January 2002 from Costco. I wonder if this is the trend (darker in color) for the rest of non-synthetic SL graded oil?
I was looking up some info to send you and noticed some old oil analysis print outs I have on my Camry. As you know the TBN on new Amsoil 10W30 was around 9.7 (from data sheet I have from back then) Not sure if still the same. In the early days of my Camry I was changing the oil at 5000, 3000 etc trying to get a handle on the correct interval. Unfortunatley, in 1994 I stopped paying the extra bucks to get the TBN done but the results I am going to post substantiate the quick drop in Amsoil TBN over what I think is short mileage 5050 miles TBN 4.15 2960 miles TBN 5.44 3131 miles TBN 5.39 2745 miles TBN 5.89 As the wear metal particles were consistent and low at this point I went to 7,500 mile changes. I think I may get one (TBN) on my next 7500 mile change which I have been doing (7500 mile changes) since early 1995. It seems to have dropped pretty quickly IMHO and if you correlate 3000 miles to a 5.5 TBN then at 10,000 miles that would be below 2.0 which is the critical level for a change. So how could one go 25,000 miles in a year. Unless the TBN does not proportionately drop off which I think is unlikely. I have one on another car at 7278 miles with a TBN of 3.42 Not good
I can see you've been studing about tbns vs antioxidant additives and that in this case it appears that the antioxidants are not used as much in this oil thus the oil is relying on the tbn levels to fight the acids which depletes it quicker.
Sending in for those free first-aid kits in the metal tube must have gotten me on Mobil's mailing list. The brochure includes a promo for a stainless steel travel mug and serving of Green Mountain coffee if you buy a case of the new Mobil 1.
In case anyone is curious to hear how the brochure promotes the new Mobil1 with SuperSyn, here is some of the verbiage from the brochure:
"New Mobil 1 with SuperSyn (TM)-- The Best Motor Oil Ever to Wear the Mobil 1 Name"
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"New Mobil 1 with SuperSyn provides a higher level of performance than ever before. With new, proprietary SuperSyn (TM) anti-wear technology, new Mobil 1 helps give your car or light truck: * Outstanding wear protection * Excellent all-temperature performance * Improved protection against sludge and deposits
Help extend the life of your engine. Pour in the performance of new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn (TM)."
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Mobil seems to be targeting each specific viscosityi/weight to a particular audience...
"While every grade of Mobil 1 provides exceptional performance, each viscosity* is geared toward a specific application:
Mobil 1 10W-30 Higher-Mileage Vehicle Formula Mobil 1 5W-30 Newer Vehicle Formula Mobil 1 15W-50 Performance Driving Formula Mobil 1 0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy Formula Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula
* Use these as guidelines only. Always follow the viscosity grade and API service category recommendations in your vehicle owner's manual."
That's about it. Just thought I'd include this text since nobody has mentioned this brochure yet.
Interest here seems to be leaning towards a xW-40 oil versus a xW-30 oil for better protection, but has anyone besides myself considered the fact that the difference in kinematic viscosities between some xW-30 oils is GREATER than the difference between some xW-30 and xW-40 oils? What I've noticed is that, for oils I could find numbers for, Mobil1 seems to be the 'runniest' and Amsoil (25,000 mile oil, not their 7,500 mile oil) seems to be the 'thickest' for a given nominal weight, AND that this difference is GREATER than the difference between some 10W-30 and 10W-40 oils. My cars engine was designed to use xW-30, fine, who am I to second guess people who I believe make a very reliable engine, but based on what I'm learning, I will use 'thickest' xW-30 I can find.
While looking up old oil analysis reports I did note the Toyota Camry V6 TBN numbers a few posts ago. Now, remember this is the same basic V6 3.0 liter engine that is in the current Camry's that are sludging up (except for minor changes in the 97 model years) I compared the TBN for a 95 Nissan Maxima V6 3.0 liter that I also had that was running the same oil as my Camry at the same time. WOW. At 8800 miles the TBN was coming in at the 5.0-5.5 range whereas the Camry was doing this but at the 3000 mile mark. Thus, the TBN was almost 50% reduced at 3000 miles on the Camry whereas it too over 8000 miles for the Nissan.
So, does this further subtantiate Bob's theory that these Toyota V6 engines are simply wearing out the oil much faster then others out there? Would seem to??????
Are you talking at operating temperature (100C) or 40C? Anyway its not gonna make any difference. Synthetics are already overkill in terms of protection for an engine (not a Timkin Tester though unless your car has one of those installed)
Bob-no I have no information on whether their "SuperSyn" oil has been tested to 200K. But it is their philosophy to run extended API/ACEA Sequence Tests and long duration "over the road tests" to insure proof of concept. This has been stated over and over in all of the technical papers they have published. As a matter of fact the Delvac 1 was tested in over 100K oil drain intervals
Yes, I was comparing numbers at 100C. I guess I was just trying to make the point that the nominal grade of an oil just indicates a range that that oil falls in and that different oils fall all over that range.
I've been busy but I've had enough time to lurk and keep up with this thread.
Bob and myself have both said we are aware of the limits of Timken machine testing of oils. Neither of us have said it is the ultimate in oil testing, however, it does show the oil's ability to protect against wear in high-load conditions. Anyone who characterizes our position differently is misrepresenting the facts.
killakella, you mentioned Prolong. I had heard of testing done by Consumer Reports or others that showed their drained oil pan test to be fraudulent. If you know how the active ingredient in Prolong works, you'd never use it in any decent vehicle. it actually causes corrosion and uses the byproduct of that corrosion to reduce friction.
fleetwoodsimca, that is encouraging news about the STP oil extender having moly. I've been talking to other Honda owners who have the same piston slap problem that my car has and they wanted to know of an easy way to get moly into their crankcase as that seems to stop the noise. Most people cannot get Schaeffer Oils or additives conveniently or I'd recommend them. It sounds like this STP Oil Extender might be just the ticket. I take it is not $2 like the regular STP stuff? I'll have to look for it. It's not as common now as it once was when they initially introduced it.
rmeyers76, I have seen the new bottles and it would not surprise me that the only difference between the formulas of the different weights of Mobil 1 is the packaging (other than the weight and amount of VI, of course). The auto & oil industry are being pressured by the EPA to have motorists use the thinner oils, especially in new cars, to get that last little 1-1.5mpg. So, I would not be surprised if the differences are merely marketing and they recommend the heavier weights only for "high-mileage" vehicles along with the 0W40 for European cars, etc ... But, this is just a theory of mine. This sort of thing has happened before with over-the-counter cough & cold drugs. Identical formulas simply packaged differently by the same company and sold next to each other.
ocelot, what you describe is the reason many people (myself included) feel justified in using a real, full-synthetic motor oil. The heat in the piston ring area is much, MUCH higher than the average temp in the crankcase and, as you found out, this is critical. The oil that gets into this tight space needs to remain fluid to lubricate the rings then return to the sump, not coke-up and seizing the rings up solid.
charlesb_la, I am not nearly as familiar with the Schaeffer line but I believe every single brand of 5W30 oil (dino, blend and 100% synthetic) uses some viscosity improver. While it's not ideal, don't let the modest amount of VI in a 5W30 oil deter you.
bigorange30, I would have agreed with what you are saying more than a year ago but I no longer buy the Mobil 1 hype. I went with their stuff for several years and my Honda's engine showed signs of normal wear. I did get better-than-average fuel economy but that's it. No reduced wear. I echo everyone else's sentiments on oil company warranties. I don't think any of their customers will ever see a dime as any failure will be something else's fault.
As for the darker color of the oil, I don't draw any conclusions from that at all. I think it's actually silly to want oil to be as clear as possible. Additives will often add some color and (within reason) the more, the merrier. >;^)
Perhaps the new Mobil 1 is an improvement over the Tri-Synthetic that I complain about but Bob's Timken results are not promising.
As for Bob's benchtop videos, I am not as interested in seeing the full motion action as I am the results. I feel I have a good grasp of what's going on here and merely would like to see the differences between all the oils. How does Max-Life stack up to all other conventional oils, even the 15W40 oils. Do all 15W40 oils perform essentially the same? Is there anything out there that protects against wear better then Red Line?
Oh, and speaking of Red Line, Bob, you talk about their oils using an inordinate amount of moly. I have my test results from their street 10W30 oil with 7,200 miles (and 5 months) on it. The PPM results are 448 which is roughly 1/3 the amount of zinc and phosphorous in the oil. You still think this is excessive? Doesn't that PPM translate to merely 0.048%?
Please check my reasoning and math. I'm pretty sure it was sloppy math that kept me out of Mensa. >;^)
My TBN was 4.5 which doesn't seem to be too bad for well-used oil. There is certainly no evidence of excessive oxidation. Perhaps the elevated levels of oxidation you have heard of were for their race oils? Of course those are not meant to be left in the crankcase for long periods of time, for the most part, just a race weekend.
n8wvi, I have found Red Line's 10W30 street formula to be the thickest xW30 oil ever. I actually switched back to 5W30 because the thicker oil actually cost me about 2mpg on a car that routinely gets 40+ mpg. Also, after running Red Line for 10 months, my oil use has dropped back to ZERO between changes. >:^D
analysis and let me show you what it had and you tell me if you think redline has an overload of mo and higher levels of oxidation in comparision to schaeffers..
this test used a toyota avalon 2001 with the 3.0 lv-6 engine. now for those who don't know, this is one of the worst engines for this, because of the higher levels of heat and the valve train chews up the hydrodynamic properties of most oils causing excessive shearing. there is alot of reports of complaints with extreme levels of sludge in these cars/engines, due to the demands this engine puts on the oil. from this report, i can summize that if a low quality oil is used that it will in fact cause sludging. now, the engine now has a total of 23,666 miles on it at time of this oil sample, oil now has 9792 oil had 9792 miles on it..TBN 5.9 (tbn on new oil is 8.3) molybdenuim 96. the base tbn on this oil starts at 8.3 on virgin oil and was at 7.1 with 5593 miles now at 5.9 now.. you'll notice the tbn drop was only a total of 2.4 from new oil to 9792 total miles.
So what is the tbn on redlines virgin oil? subtract your current tbn from that and how much of a drop did you have? if it was faster then it is oxidizing quicker. I agree in race oils this is normal but in regular oils it is not.
The highest mo i think schaeffers is in virgin oil is around 300+- and in most of my analysis i see an average of 125-80ppm's left over. this is after they have run this oil for awhile. if it is the first time in that engine, the oil will deplete it's mo much faster having to plate up everywhere unlike having to sustain what is already there. this is one reason not to extend your oil drains on the first time using a new oil in an engine.
as for the best, redline produces an excellent barrier protection against wear and i would be hard pressed to find another oil to beat redline's antiwear resistance.
i will be taking some time to do some more vid's on the 15w40 series of oils i have and will post those results. The vid's i have produce don't take long to download or watch since they are no more than 3mins max. The first vid about the timken basics helps to show how this test does apply in an engine even though engines has no timken bearings in it like adc pointed out so kindly.
As Bror pointed out and i totally agree with his statement..."Neither of us have said it is the ultimate in oil testing, however, it does show the oil's ability to protect against wear in high-load conditions"
I'm going to test mobils trisynth to see how it plates up as i have seen the new one i'm wondering how the old one did in comparison since most all of their documentation is reffering to the old oil in all their tests. I have not seen any real time tests for their new oil. Kinda like chev stating they have piston slap but this won't cause any long term effect. yep, they already know how it is going to affect this engine in the long run yet this engine is a recently new designed engine with no actual time in the field.
It was my impression that zinc was the last barrier for wear protection under severe loads...or is it molly?
So what I have gathered here is that the oil companies are decreasing the amount of anti wear additives in their oil.
I drive a modified Supercharged Grand Prix (GTP) and run Mobil 1. Should I be worried about a lack of anti wear properties in Mobil? Should I consider a supplement such as the STP oil extender? Or should I switch to the 0W-40?
zddp is the one most commonly used by motor oil companies as the barrier lube additive for last line of defense. Yes, they are scheduled to reduce those levels by mid next year.
Mo is an alternative to the zddp and is not commonly used except in specialized oils . As for the stp, most has vi improvers which can affect the viscosity of your oil in addition to increasing the zddp levels to help wear protection.
I posted this in another thread, but thought you'd find it interesting. I was trying to finagle a coupon like fleetwoodsimca did and got this response back from STP about their Oil Extender. After a nice "thank you for writing", they said:
"Unfortunately, the STP 6000 Mile Oil Extender is no longer available. Although a great number of consumers enjoyed it as you did, the sales volume was not substantial enough to warrant our continuing to market this product."
Comments
2)Aren't you using the Timken machine in a different manner than it was designed? Isn't it designed to be run for a fixed period of time and then the wear scar on the bearing measured not for stall load?
3)Aren't most EP additives designed to function at only at the extremely high temps that occur under high load inside an engine and not at room temp? Is it not possible that Mobil1's or any other oil's additives are not functioning on you Timken Machine but would be fine inside an engine?
4)Isn't you calling the new formula of Mobil1 "garbage oil" alittle out of line since you(or anyone else that will say) do not know what it's new antiwear package consists of? Is it not possible that Mobil will protect engines in the real world?
5)Are you aware of any test that shows Mobil underpeforms in actual engines?
Thanks for any insight
or even given thought to the parameters?
The fact is that the crank bearing that u show as worn is DESIGNED to wear out. when 2 surfaces are rubbing, what do you want to wear out? The bearing or the crank shaft? Naturally the sleeve is a smaller component compared to the crankshaft. So it will cost less to replace, considering that the labor is equal to tear down and put back the engine.
The cam on the other hand is surface hardened and thus is not going to show any wear. The rollers are also made of surface hardened steel...so wear is equal on both of them, if any.
my 2 cents....
ARM, I agree, for some it would be difficult, but there is a lot of local retail stores setup for that. There is one in Texarkan Ark that will sell it for 3.00 per qt(at any quanitiy 1 or 50qts), this includes but not limited to the moly ep additive and fuel/engine cleaner additives but shipping is involved which offsets the costs.
I can appreciate and agree with what you are saying and this is one of the main reasons why I myself don't want to bother selling to anyone over the Inet unless they want or have a $250.00 product order which has no shipping or handling charges involved. (not 1000.00). it's not anything to do with commissions so much as it is shipping costs.
CHARLES,
1> No, as stated this wasn't a scientific test but a relative test, so no actual measurement was taken but observed as in the bottome picture on http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
I agree wear will be present but at what rate? I personally know of 3 guys with 500,000 miles + on gas engines that has never taken off the valve covers. 1 nissan,1dodge van,1chev p/u. all used this oil with the soluble mos.
2&3>timken was designed with a computer and heater setup to ensure proper consistant equations. the "one arm bandit" as some refer to this is used in what ever manner you want. The point of this issue is to do the test in the same manner against oil a as with oil b and so forth to make general comparisions. I have used this to demostrate to many people about shear properties and many of which have seen this used at the trade shows for ep additive sales.
I do not do the testing when showing this as many other salesmen do it instead. I let the person looking at this hold that handle and do the tests themselves. This means you would control this test. What you see becomes more realistic when you are doing it, as with FEN, never having done this, walked in, I explained the basic mechanics of how the spinning wheel is the "crank" the little bowl was the "oil pan" and the lever with the bearing attached was the "top piston rod bearing" which you'd be pushing down to duplicate the "squeezing or shearing" effect
on the oil thus see how it holds up against this.
now to add realisim to this, I tell them first to apply a light load allowing it to start heat up and create the heat needed to activate what ever barrier lube it uses. then they are to lift it up momentarly then apply pressure again constantly for the purpose of the piston rotating around and oil is squeezed then comes back in on the up stroke, then squeezed again and so on. As you do this, the oil will heat up to 180deg (i have taken temp readings with digital). This is more than enough heat to activate antiwear additives.
4> You are right, I'm out of line making such a derogatory statement like that.
5> No, this Mobil 1(10w30) with SynerSyn hasn't been available that long for such testing in the real world. As some may know, my opinion about mobil has always been high until i got this one and I personally lost all respect for this oil as oppose the older one.
BREN,
I agree, too much barrier isn't good and usually will cause an oil to oxidize sooner because of the barrier additives will overtake the antioxidant/detergent additives and won't allow them to do their job as well. Case in point, redlines uses 3times the moly as schaeffers. Qmi loaded much heavier with ptfe than slick 50 and so forth.
BTW, It takes very little moly to cause the plating action on the "one arm bandit", therefore they don't have to overload the barrier additive to get it to work.
from my little tests i noticed that moly plates up faster and harder than zddp, therefore you'll find the zddp additive will allow more wear to occur before getting enough plated before protection resistance drops.
CHIKOO,
I have built my share of engines and understand and agree that certain parts are to be worn before others. My point i was commenting on was that all these seq tests were to do against a metal surface that isn't suppose to wear. BTW,i believe we are talking about flat tappet not roller.
How much of Schaeffers moly ep additive would you reccomend blending with Mobil1 10W-30 in a 2002 Jeep Liberty 3.7L V6 with an oil capacity of 5qts? I am in stop and go traffic in near 100F heat with the air conditioner on frequently during the summer. I also go off road and can have a mud clogged radiator while doing so. And just to make sure I qualify for severe driving conditions I tow a trailer every now and then. I like Mobil1 and it has held up beautifully in past vehicles in similar conditions. It's also easy to get and I never pay over $3.50 qt.
Also has the moly additive been tested to ensure that it won't react with or adversely affect the additives in Mobil1? I'm a little leary of playing home chemist but I am interested on how I could beef up Mobil1's EP performance to go with it's excellent base oil.
Thanks for the help and interesting discussion.
"Do you think dipstick coloration is a reliable indication of oil quality?"
I think you'll find that the color of a dipstick is most likely the color of the material from which it is made. Some say that dipsticks can become discolored, but I have never particularly noted that phenomenon.
Thank you most kindly for reminding me that:
"...(the "W" stands for "Winter, not "Weight", BTW)."
Your mentioning that calls to mind the reason we often use the word, weight, when speaking or writing those indices for oils. It is a linguistic convention, based on common usage and general understanding among people involved with lubrication that the number in front of the "W" tells us the "weight (thickness) of the lubricant in cold condition (we agree to consider winter a cold time). The second number might follow this pattern and have an "H" placed after it for hot, or an "S" for summer, but by that same convention, we agree to let that just be understood.
So was that just a bunch of crap? I seem to remember that Prolong ended up being a bunch of crap. Bob, have you ever tried prolong in your friction machine? I am just curious, since the description of your tests reminds me of that commercial.
Another thing.. it would be really cool if you could videotape some of your testing and post the videos on your website.
As for the videos, i thought about that but problem is i'm limited to 50 megs of web space and 1 min of vid from a vcr is about 10 megs.
there might be a way but i'm not up to date on streaming videos from a vcr video that can be compressed.
BTW, no offense was taken by me from any of you and thank you.
As for the schaeffers additive, 1 pt to 5 qt system. goto http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
select tech data sheets and look at the #132 moly ep additive.
I have used it in many types of oil with no ill effects. The company has been producing this for an extremely long time and has never changed it from what i know. costs around 5.00 per bottle.
"Thank you for contacting us to discuss our product, STP Oil Treatment. We appreciate your question:
The STP Oil Extender product in the Gold Bottle added the Molybdenum disulfide you seek and another additive; zinc dialkyldithiophosphate in slightly higher concentrations than today's SJ rated motor oils. Unfortunately, the label does not list the Molybdenum additive. The label lists an olefin copolymer viscosity enhancer by mistake. The viscosity index improver is present in the original formula blue bottle but not the extender product. The labeling graphics department regrets the error. We have pulled the product because of the mislabeling error. You may be able to locate the oil extender in secondary distribution such as drug stores, rest stops, dollar discount stores etc...."
They also sent me a coupon. So there we have it. If the product is not available, it will be, when the labelling is corrected. I am very pleased with the results thus far.
I was walking thru Walmart today when I noticed they are stocking the new supersyn Mobil1. The 10W-30 bottle says "higher mileage" formula. I have been using Mobil1 10W-30 since the second oil change for a two year old vehicle with GM's 3.8L. The service manual recommends 10W-30 oil.
The question is, is there any harm or benefit to switching to a 5W-30 grade in lieu of the 10W-30 the manufacturer recommends? I will probably stick with the 10W-30 thru the warranty period and then consider making a switch in grade if there is truly any benefit. My gut feel is that the 10W-30 is fine even though the new labeling says higher mileage engines.
2000 Buick Regal mostly uses 10W-30. At least in summer time.
If I remember right, GM recommends 5W-30 when temperature is below 20F. Both grades are OK between 20F and 60F.
As for the stp, I look forward to finding that.(of course only for testing) I think if they have the soluble moly in that, then great. It would certainly be an option i would consider using if i didn't have schaeffers, especially in light of the new stuff they are comming out with.
The conversion softwares are free to download (at least before when I downloaded).
on the bottom of this page
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
is a list of short videos that will take at the slowest 10 mins to download and for all others with the high spd connection, no time at all.
Now please understand, I did this for the purpose of you seeing what I am doing and am not trying to dog any but just show what I am seeing. If this little stream of videos work out pretty good, i may in the near future add more popular brands of oils. These videos are not of the highest quality but i believe they get the point across. Sorry for them not being proffessional with a pointer and lead in's and such but you get what you pay for.
btw, To understand what this is all about, I suggest you watch the timken basic video first to explain the basic priciple of what i am doing.
bob
Thanks for the videos.
Have you tested any of the Universal Oils of the 15W-40 viscosity? I bet they will do well in your tests.
lou, i have tested many oils and yes 15w40s as well. i will have to say, that to tell you how well it did, i'd have to re-test each one again, which i am entertaining the idea of doing some more of these vid's on other different types of oils so to share what i see as well, but that all depends on if people like to see these results or just think i'm trying to scam them. I really don't want to waste my time trying to help show things if all i ever get would to be critisized which so far has not been the case and have really got a kick out of producing these. It took me about 2 to 3hrs hrs total to setup,record the tests,swap them to my main computer where i upload to my site, and modify my page for access. not really much time from start to finish. i considered adding headers and such but i just left them alone and posted them as they were.
again, thanks for the advise on the file compression. the avg file less than 450kb which i thought was awsome.
Is the NEW MOBIL 1 synthetic a blend of hydro cracked or 100% PAO? I could care less as long as the properties of the oil are the same or increased. Any comparison tests out there with the new vs old?
Based on what you showed us on your test and the fact that it is API certified, I am considering switching to the Schaeffers 5W-30. Do you know anyone in eastern Kansas that sells the stuff? One of my friends is an Amsoil dealer and he has been giving it to me for his cost which has been nice! What is the difference between the Supreme 7000 and the micron moly? I see both come in 5W-30.
Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 475°/246°
Does this product have a synthetic carrier oil? Also does it contain any viscosity modifiers or "goo" that can break down? Basically what are it's potential downsides if any?
Thanks
Catastrophic losses rarely occur and and are 99.9% of the time not caused by oil. Wear occurs over time and again can never be blaimed on oil failure. It is virtually impossible to prove the oil was the cause of the failure so these oil company warranties are worthless. You will never collect on them. A marketing gimmick. Amsoil has never once paid off on their warranty and they claim the only possible way they can ever pay off is if you can prove the oil was formulated incorrectly at the plant "EVERYTHING ELSE IS ENGINE DESIGN FAILURE" as they say is the reason for Toyota sludge.
Marketing HYPE by Mobil, QS etc.!
This is edmunds board and my intent on here was and is not to promote or sell on here. My intent for those videos on
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
was to help show and explain how i look at the barrier lube antiwear properties of oils and helps me when i am talking about wear protection. This wasn't ment to push or dog any particular oil but to help educate.
I have tried to maintain strick guidlines on myself as to not push product but if asked directly via email i will direct you to who ever you need to talk with or discuss more with you about any particular product so not to detract from this subject board. I have run across many boards that were infested with people wanting to push a particular oil or product and i don't want to be considered one of them.
I think arm can tell you that i even try not to get to heavily on pushing even on my own board.
I appreciate your comments and thoughts on these subjects and have really enjoyed visiting this site.
I think i'm going to look for an old mobil 1 tri synth oil and test it to see if they actuall ever had higher levels of antiwear than what they have now as so many people seem to think they are near the same or better, and If the current new one they have is better, than I can't imagine how they lasted this long. I do beleive thier old formula was better than this new current one, but until i go back and retest I won't know for sure. I suspect that it's the base oil that is better but the antiwear barrier protection? mmmm, well see.
"and If the current new one they have is better, than I can't imagine how they lasted this long"- How can you do any better than after 200K miles have all wear parts come up to factory specs for new parts? Have any other oils demonstrated this??
I also agree that the statement From Mobil is very sticky (at best): First of all its not written anywhere-I assume. Second its difficult if not impossible to prove. I believe if you could give them (Mobil) absolte proof that their product failed to protect the engine under normal driving conditions they would probably pay (as would Amsoil). But it ain't happening.
look at the video i'm reffering to and you'll see what i'm reffering to.
I'm not sure why the new oil is darker, maybe different additive package???
My oil really was darker than SJ graded and it was bought in January 2002 from Costco. I wonder if this is the trend (darker in color) for the rest of non-synthetic SL graded oil?
5050 miles TBN 4.15
2960 miles TBN 5.44
3131 miles TBN 5.39
2745 miles TBN 5.89
As the wear metal particles were consistent and low at this point I went to 7,500 mile changes.
I think I may get one (TBN) on my next 7500 mile change which I have been doing (7500 mile changes) since early 1995. It seems to have dropped pretty quickly IMHO and if you correlate 3000 miles to a 5.5 TBN then at 10,000 miles that would be below 2.0 which is the critical level for a change. So how could one go 25,000 miles in a year. Unless the TBN does not proportionately drop off which I think is unlikely.
I have one on another car at 7278 miles with a TBN of 3.42 Not good
In case anyone is curious to hear how the brochure promotes the new Mobil1 with SuperSyn, here is some of the verbiage from the brochure:
"New Mobil 1 with SuperSyn (TM)-- The Best Motor Oil Ever to Wear the Mobil 1 Name"
-----
"New Mobil 1 with SuperSyn provides a higher level of performance than ever before. With new, proprietary SuperSyn (TM) anti-wear technology, new Mobil 1 helps give your car or light truck:
* Outstanding wear protection
* Excellent all-temperature performance
* Improved protection against sludge and deposits
Help extend the life of your engine. Pour in the performance of new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn (TM)."
-----
Mobil seems to be targeting each specific viscosityi/weight to a particular audience...
"While every grade of Mobil 1 provides exceptional performance, each viscosity* is geared toward a specific application:
Mobil 1 10W-30 Higher-Mileage Vehicle Formula
Mobil 1 5W-30 Newer Vehicle Formula
Mobil 1 15W-50 Performance Driving Formula
Mobil 1 0W-30 Enhanced Fuel Economy Formula
Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula
* Use these as guidelines only. Always follow the viscosity grade and API service category recommendations in your vehicle owner's manual."
That's about it. Just thought I'd include this text since nobody has mentioned this brochure yet.
Dave
So, does this further subtantiate Bob's theory that these Toyota V6 engines are simply wearing out the oil much faster then others out there? Would seem to??????
Bob-no I have no information on whether their "SuperSyn" oil has been tested to 200K. But it is their philosophy to run extended API/ACEA Sequence Tests and long duration "over the road tests" to insure proof of concept. This has been stated over and over in all of the technical papers they have published. As a matter of fact the Delvac 1 was tested in over 100K oil drain intervals
Dave
Bob and myself have both said we are aware of the limits of Timken machine testing of oils. Neither of us have said it is the ultimate in oil testing, however, it does show the oil's ability to protect against wear in high-load conditions. Anyone who characterizes our position differently is misrepresenting the facts.
killakella, you mentioned Prolong. I had heard of testing done by Consumer Reports or others that showed their drained oil pan test to be fraudulent. If you know how the active ingredient in Prolong works, you'd never use it in any decent vehicle. it actually causes corrosion and uses the byproduct of that corrosion to reduce friction.
fleetwoodsimca, that is encouraging news about the STP oil extender having moly. I've been talking to other Honda owners who have the same piston slap problem that my car has and they wanted to know of an easy way to get moly into their crankcase as that seems to stop the noise. Most people cannot get Schaeffer Oils or additives conveniently or I'd recommend them. It sounds like this STP Oil Extender might be just the ticket. I take it is not $2 like the regular STP stuff? I'll have to look for it. It's not as common now as it once was when they initially introduced it.
rmeyers76, I have seen the new bottles and it would not surprise me that the only difference between the formulas of the different weights of Mobil 1 is the packaging (other than the weight and amount of VI, of course). The auto & oil industry are being pressured by the EPA to have motorists use the thinner oils, especially in new cars, to get that last little 1-1.5mpg. So, I would not be surprised if the differences are merely marketing and they recommend the heavier weights only for "high-mileage" vehicles along with the 0W40 for European cars, etc ... But, this is just a theory of mine. This sort of thing has happened before with over-the-counter cough & cold drugs. Identical formulas simply packaged differently by the same company and sold next to each other.
ocelot, what you describe is the reason many people (myself included) feel justified in using a real, full-synthetic motor oil. The heat in the piston ring area is much, MUCH higher than the average temp in the crankcase and, as you found out, this is critical. The oil that gets into this tight space needs to remain fluid to lubricate the rings then return to the sump, not coke-up and seizing the rings up solid.
charlesb_la, I am not nearly as familiar with the Schaeffer line but I believe every single brand of 5W30 oil (dino, blend and 100% synthetic) uses some viscosity improver. While it's not ideal, don't let the modest amount of VI in a 5W30 oil deter you.
bigorange30, I would have agreed with what you are saying more than a year ago but I no longer buy the Mobil 1 hype. I went with their stuff for several years and my Honda's engine showed signs of normal wear. I did get better-than-average fuel economy but that's it. No reduced wear. I echo everyone else's sentiments on oil company warranties. I don't think any of their customers will ever see a dime as any failure will be something else's fault.
As for the darker color of the oil, I don't draw any conclusions from that at all. I think it's actually silly to want oil to be as clear as possible. Additives will often add some color and (within reason) the more, the merrier. >;^)
Perhaps the new Mobil 1 is an improvement over the Tri-Synthetic that I complain about but Bob's Timken results are not promising.
As for Bob's benchtop videos, I am not as interested in seeing the full motion action as I am the results. I feel I have a good grasp of what's going on here and merely would like to see the differences between all the oils. How does Max-Life stack up to all other conventional oils, even the 15W40 oils. Do all 15W40 oils perform essentially the same? Is there anything out there that protects against wear better then Red Line?
Oh, and speaking of Red Line, Bob, you talk about their oils using an inordinate amount of moly. I have my test results from their street 10W30 oil with 7,200 miles (and 5 months) on it. The PPM results are 448 which is roughly 1/3 the amount of zinc and phosphorous in the oil. You still think this is excessive? Doesn't that PPM translate to merely 0.048%?
Please check my reasoning and math. I'm pretty sure it was sloppy math that kept me out of Mensa. >;^)
My TBN was 4.5 which doesn't seem to be too bad for well-used oil. There is certainly no evidence of excessive oxidation. Perhaps the elevated levels of oxidation you have heard of were for their race oils? Of course those are not meant to be left in the crankcase for long periods of time, for the most part, just a race weekend.
n8wvi, I have found Red Line's 10W30 street formula to be the thickest xW30 oil ever. I actually switched back to 5W30 because the thicker oil actually cost me about 2mpg on a car that routinely gets 40+ mpg. Also, after running Red Line for 10 months, my oil use has dropped back to ZERO between changes. >:^D
--- Bror Jace
this test used a toyota avalon 2001 with the 3.0 lv-6 engine. now for those who don't know, this is one of the worst engines for this, because of the higher levels of heat and the valve train chews up the hydrodynamic properties of most oils causing excessive shearing. there is alot of reports of complaints with extreme levels of sludge in these cars/engines, due to the demands this engine puts on the oil. from this report, i can summize that if a low quality oil is used that it will in fact cause sludging. now, the engine now has a total of 23,666 miles on it at time of this oil sample, oil now has 9792
oil had 9792 miles on it..TBN 5.9 (tbn on new oil is 8.3) molybdenuim 96. the base tbn on this oil starts at 8.3 on virgin oil and was at 7.1 with 5593 miles now at 5.9 now.. you'll notice the tbn drop was only a total of 2.4 from new oil to 9792 total miles.
So what is the tbn on redlines virgin oil? subtract your current tbn from that and how much of a drop did you have? if it was faster then it is oxidizing quicker. I agree in race oils this is normal but in regular oils it is not.
The highest mo i think schaeffers is in virgin oil is around 300+- and in most of my analysis i see an average of 125-80ppm's left over. this is after they have run this oil for awhile. if it is the first time in that engine, the oil will deplete it's mo much faster having to plate up everywhere unlike having to sustain what is already there. this is one reason not to extend your oil drains on the first time using a new oil in an engine.
as for the best, redline produces an excellent barrier protection against wear and i would be hard pressed to find another oil to beat redline's antiwear resistance.
i will be taking some time to do some more vid's on the 15w40 series of oils i have and will post those results. The vid's i have produce don't take long to download or watch since they are no more than 3mins max. The first vid about the timken basics helps to show how this test does apply in an engine even though engines has no timken bearings in it like adc pointed out so kindly.
As Bror pointed out and i totally agree with his statement..."Neither of us have said it is the ultimate in oil testing, however, it does show the oil's ability to protect against wear in high-load conditions"
I'm going to test mobils trisynth to see how it plates up as i have seen the new one i'm wondering how the old one did in comparison since most all of their documentation is reffering to the old oil in all their tests. I have not seen any real time tests for their new oil. Kinda like chev stating they have piston slap but this won't cause any long term effect. yep, they already know how it is going to affect this engine in the long run yet this engine is a recently new designed engine with no actual time in the field.
So what I have gathered here is that the oil companies are decreasing the amount of anti wear additives in their oil.
I drive a modified Supercharged Grand Prix (GTP) and run Mobil 1. Should I be worried about a lack of anti wear properties in Mobil? Should I consider a supplement such as the STP oil extender? Or should I switch to the 0W-40?
Mo is an alternative to the zddp and is not commonly used except in specialized oils . As for the stp, most has vi improvers which can affect the viscosity of your oil in addition to increasing the zddp levels to help wear protection.
That dosnt sound good.
Any way a consumer can replace these additives that are being reduced?
"Unfortunately, the STP 6000 Mile Oil Extender is no longer available. Although a great number of consumers enjoyed it as you did, the sales volume was not substantial enough to warrant our continuing to market this product."
Oh, well. Back to trying to get some #132 Moly!