Synthetic motor oil

frule · June 2002

I agree."Johnny" works for Pennzoil,"Terry"does oil analysis,but is linked from Bob's old site.Bror jace was on this board a lot,and likes Red Line,but is open-minded IMO.Bob is slanted towards his products(naturally),but still stays pretty reasonable.At least they aren't saying I'll only use "X" come he!! or high water,just because I say so!

There is always two sides to a story.Some here don't see it that way.JMO

yooper53 · June 2002

is going for $4.77 at a Green Bay Walmart. Its definitely gone up since I bought my last case but I can't find the receipt. Anyway I'm using it up and going back to "so-called" dino oil. I read an article from some kind of SUV magazine that claimed dino had nothing to do with it. Also stated Russia is doing some really deep drilling (not conventional) and getting lots of crude somewhere in Vietnam where conventional wisdom states it can't possibly be. Anyone else heard anything about that?
I read that crude production is going to fall starting in another decade or so. So what is Boeing and Airbus' answer to that? Hybrid 757's and A300's? Food for thought given that they're working on next gen engines and airframes.

malachy72 · June 2002

many travels around the warehouses (Sam's, BJ's, Costco), I am seeing Mobil One tri-syn in a 6 qt. box for about $21 and change. I think you will find some see a 5 qt. jug for $17 and change. There has been an article posted on Bob's sight from one of the lubrication industry publications that the growth rate of synthetic oil sales has leveled off significantly with a forecast for more of the same. You may see a reduction in price as a result, or you may not. Wal Mart may be trying to steer customers towards their Super tech label by pricing Mobil 1 higher.

adc100 · June 2002

That is exactly wrong. There is an article in June 2002 "Lubrication Engineering". Which indicates that due to increased demand for PAO's worldwide, the production rate of 100 million gallions per year will shortly not be able to keep up with increased growth rates which are currently at 10% per year. This is one of the reasons oil companies are searching for Lower cost higher yield alternatives to PAO's. The one possible solution has been Pennzoil's development of EOP's(Ethylene-alpha-Olefin Polymer) Apparently the proces has a much higher yield than PAOs and performance is said to be similar.

Sounds like your information is more wishful thinking on the part of syn-haters who apparently can't stand that some people are willing to pay a premium price for premium performance.

armtdm · June 2002

Is excellent. I lurk there all the time but no longer post as I became upset with the very issue noted above (post by lalachy72) on people selling their product along with some very biased individuals that I finally determined were not worth the hassle in the overall scheme of life and I am not speaking of Bob. I have had several conversatons with him and he really is objective and obviously does not make his living selling his product, seems to be a sideline.

It does seem that what was a great informational site is turning into a run of the mill board similar to this one as it seems that Bob cannot keep up with the traffic and questions. Bob's replies and analysis made the site and he does not seem to be as active anymore.

malachy72 · June 2002

in case I'm just blurry eyed from reading posts on the internet. Maybe the accounting is like the government's, where a decrease is reported when there is lowering in the rate of increase! As far as hating syns, I have no emotional attachment to any motor oil. I'm sure synthetics have an application in many arenas, I just don't have an application for them at this time.
And, yes, on Bob's board the Amsoil dealers are now doing a little cat fighting. Nothing major, just the same as they sell, a little soft shoe.

malachy72 · June 2002

and this is what I read:

Slower Growth Forecast for PAO Lubes

By Lisa Tocci

After 18 months of weak demand and dismal pricing in many segments, the market for alphaolefins is beginning to pick up, says Marilyn Bradshaw, vice president and alphaolefins project leader at the consulting firm Colin A. Houston and Associates in Brewster, N.Y.

Sales of polyalphaolefins for synthetic lubricants will pick up, too, she told Lube Report, but growth will be less than half of that seen in the 1990s.

"The PAO market saw incredible growth -- more than 12 to 15 percent per year -- in the 1990s," she added. "Decene-1 producers couldn't make it fast enough. But next year and into the future we're forecasting 4.5 to 5 percent growth. That's really decent growth, of course. However, we aren't going to see alphaolefin producers running at capacity, at the 90-plus-percent rates as they saw before, until the much larger economy rebounds."

Now I'm not long or short in any markets, I have no fiscal interest in this. But was there a comment abount weakening demand in the past 18 months? Believe me, I'm not being sarcastic, but was I really "exactly wrong"? Or is that segment the young lady refers to not associated with synthetic lubricants? I really don't know!

ruking1 · June 2002

This is about as unscientific as it gets , BUT if the oil changes are up to 5 x less than conventional oil changes, it is only logical that there is less demand for PAO products than for conventional oil products, UNLESS there is growth in the PAO customer base!

adc100 · June 2002

Can't criticize the information. I can't say if it better or worse than mine. Since yours is market based-yours is probably more accurate. I would say that the growth, though is at least as large as general lubrication growth-perhaps more.

frule · June 2002

Perhaps the change is due to the reduction in PAOs available otc(The demise of PAO synths as most "synthetics" are now hydrocracked).i.e.the Castrol synth method.

Not everyone uses Amsoil and Mobil-1.

malachy72 · June 2002

if the general downturn in the economy has more to due with the reported weakened demand. It may be that the industrial applications of synthetic lubricants have seen reduced use as factories experience slowdowns. Off Topic, I do believe that there is a serious economic downturn but how it affects prices and demand for all commodities remains to be seen. JMHO

malachy72 · June 2002

what the major oil companies will do with the "wiggle" room created by the courts in defining synthetic. I could speculate, but I think most know where that would lead.

frule · June 2002

So true.But even considering only Castrol,how many long-time Castrol synth users know that they are getting a dino blend?I dare say very few know it's not a PAO.The same holds true for some other "well-known" synths,i.e.they are now Group 3,not PAOs.

adc100 · June 2002

I was at KMart a while ago. When this guy picked up a number of bottles of Castrol Syntec I mentioned that Castrol was not a true Synthetic. He grunted and preceded to the checkout line with Castrol. Don't know what got into me. What was I thinking? Brand loyalty is powerful (as I'm sure Castrol knows)

malachy72 · June 2002

that synthetic motor oil would make a substantial difference in my oil use. Believe me, not much would please me more! I'm embarrassed to say how many snake oils and scheme's I've been lured into in my 48 plus years. The business I own leads me to be more involved in people's personal lives and problems than their clergymen are ( I should really be ordained). Some people want so desperately to believe in someone or something that they refuse to listen to facts and truth. With some people it's their children, with others it's their motor oil. Many Castrol syn users will continue to buy and with success in operation, others will switch to a different brand or type. However, in the large order of things, this is just a fun discussion, the way my old man used to sit outside the apartment building in the Bronx on a board propped up between 2 milk crates chewing the fat with the other guys from the neighborhood. The only difference is this neighborhood is more global and diverse, and as such offers much greater insight, and experience. Now Bill, step off the soap box.

frule · June 2002

True,it's a fun discussion.But my reason for being here is not to waste my time arguing due solely to brand loyalty(or "synth" loyalty;or "dino" loyalty).I want to LEARN about oils(of all kinds),so I can make a more educated decision about MY PERSONAL USAGE.

Here lately,much of the discourse has turned away from fact(or even well-educated guesses).JMO.That is why I've started spending time on Bob's board where there are at least a few experts.I'm willing to wade through a little BS there vs a lot of naievete here.

bottgers · June 2002

Is this the stuff some of you have been talking about, it says "iso Syn" on the bottle? It's $1.24 a quart at our local Checker Auto.

fleetwoodsimca · June 2002

If it says Chevron and is rated as ISO grade SL, you'd be pretty close.

bottgers · June 2002

.....but I think I'll give the Chevron SL a try for my next oil change. I'm so cheap, it just kills me to fork over the 3-5 bucks a quart for syn. I'll still use a Mobil 1 or PureOne filter. If I can go 5k between changes using the Chevron at $1.25 a qt, vs 10K changes using the SuperTech syn at $2.97 a qt, it's cheaper to go with the Chevron. If the Chevron is as good as everyone is saying it is, there's no reason it shouldn't easily go 5K.

ro22tol · June 2002

I haven't been here for a while, and have seen all this talk about Bob's site. Could someone post a link to it for me. Thanks!!

adc100 · June 2002

http://theoildrop.server101.com/

Select "Forum" The site is down right now.

As armtdm said above the site is laden with dealers hawking their wares and you have to be careful. Bob is not among those, however. And even though I disagree with him at times, he is extremely knowledgeable and helpful. He really can't control some of the bias. Great site.

It is presently down.

tntitan · June 2002

That was a real shocker Bottgers. Hope it works for you.

I just filled up for the first time since changing to the Chevron SL 10W-30 in my Accord and just realized that I got better mileage (more than 1 MPG difference) than I have been logging on each tank. I am going to watch this and also compare results after previous oil changes to see if there is any correlation. Hmmm...

frule · June 2002

I just spit coffee all over my keyboard.Is this a ploy?

If it makes you feel better,I'll drop the "bombshell" I was saving for you:You were using a cracked dino anyway!!!See the 5th or 6th post by "Johnny".He is a manager of Pennzoil distribution(check his profile).Note what he says about Penn/QS and it goes to reason that ST is not a PAO.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000039

Now sing along..."I've seen the light..........

frule · June 2002

I think this is what you were looking for.The other link is to Bob's "older" site. http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

There are 2 boards!

ruking1 · June 2002

So I take it that Chevron SL doesnt pass the GM 4178M specification?

malachy72 · June 2002

no one mentioned the PZ/QS/SUPER TECH SYNTHETIC post on Bob's board here? And by a Pennzoil guy yet! The reactions would have been interesting. Again showing that the discussion here had become more about what was in the bottle and not its performance.

killakella123 · June 2002

I must have missed the point where Chevron SL became the oil of choice for conventional oil users. What is the reasoning for it being better than the other numerous brands of SL rated conventional oils?

bottgers · June 2002

I think I'll wait until I've used it for a while before I do any singing.

adc100 · June 2002

You're not alone!!!

bottgers · June 2002

Well, I just drained my SuperTech, filled with Chevron SL, and installed a new PureOne filter. We'll see how she goes.

malachy72 · June 2002

What can I say? You're the greatest! Best of luck with your purchase!

mrdetailer · June 2002

bluedevils · June 2002

People have discovered that it uses hydrocracked base stocks (I hope I'm not misspeaking here). For some reason, more light has been shone by Town Hallers on Chevron's SL oil than on other SL oils. Personally, I think Chevron's Supreme seems like a very good oil, and I have started using it, but I'm not of the opinion that it is the "SL oil of choice." It may very well be, but I really have no idea. What I am convinced of is that it's a very good oil at a very good price-- just over a buck a quart in my area.

Some folks are drawing the conclusion that the Chevron SL is the SL conventional oil of choice; it must be because they're assuming other, perhaps many or most, SL oils do not use the hydrocracked base stocks. Therefore, the Chevron must be better than these run-of-the-mill SL oils, right? I guess that's the reasoning.

Personally, I have done little research into other SL oils. I have heard several folks mention that Citgo SuperGard is cut from a similar cloth as the Chevron Supreme. I have several quarts of both products on my garage shelves.

fleetwoodsimca · June 2002

How are you going to determine whether the Chevron SL is okay for 5K? Laboratory analysis?

Pending any real information to the contrary, I would assume that Havoline SL must surely be very close, if not identical, to Chevron SL. After all, the company is now referred to as Chevron Texaco. Have I missed something? Does Shell own the whole mess? My head is spinning... >:^(

frule · June 2002

And the Pennzoil SL is probably good.No one,to my recollection,has said Chevron SL is better than others.I assume ALL SL oils must have a healthy dose of hydrocracked base stock just to pass the "SL" test.

I suggest the "pour some out into a clear container/look at it/smell it test".If that doesn't tell you that these oils are quite different,I'll be surprised.It is not scientific,but SJ oil smells "burned/tarry" to me and is much darker(probably sulfur compounds).

bottgers
Chuck that Pure One!It's too good for Chevron.A waste of $$.Get a Super Tech filter like I'm using!Made by Champion Labs.

bottgers · June 2002

frule

Now that I'm only paying $1.25 a quart for my oil, I can afford the good filters!

Fleetwoodsimca

A lab analysis is the best way I know of to dertermine how long an oil is good for. You can probably get the toll free number from a bottle of Havoline, and call them. They'd probably be glad to send you the spec sheet for their oil. I did this today with Chevron, and they emailed the spec sheet to me.

pjksr · June 2002

It's tough to tell whose product you're getting these days. If you look at the Chevron site, under Havoline oil, you get the exact same spec sheets for Havoline oils as Chevron oils. But if you call the 800 number, they'll tell you the oils are different and that Havloine's formulations are unchanged...

If you purchase Havoline ATF, it says "distributed by Equilon." Equilon is now owned by Shell.

Texaco service stations have until next year to take down their Texaco signs...

malachy72 · June 2002

a couple of weeks ago at BJ's club the case of motor oil was labeled "ESSO", not exxon. Has anybody else seen this around?

frule · June 2002

Could it be made for a non US market that still uses "Esso"?Just a guess.

brenneke · June 2002

Esso is the Canadian version of Exxon. (Esso gas stations, Esso lubricants etc.)

ro22tol · June 2002

Thanks for the link! Just discovered they changed Mobil-1 AGAIN! Why????

adc100 · June 2002

You're welcome. They changed the formula first to comply to the new SL standards. At the same time they decided to hype their new anti-wear ingredient-"SuperSyn" I assume that one of the reasons they developed it was to get a heads up on the future possible reduction requirements for zinc, which did not occur with SL but may with the next spec. Apparently they had tested it(SuperSyn) for a while in their racing oils. They make it sound like they developed it specifically for racing and then "realized" it would be good to add it to their regular Mobil 1. What a crock. I assume it probably is superior to the old Mobil 1.

malachy72 · June 2002

I often see in films made abroad ESSO and not EXXON on service station signs. In fact, if you go into discount stores, you'll find petroleum products (STP), that were intended for Latin American markets as most of their labeling is in Spanish. Just a surprise to see a major U.S. retailer with a petroleum product intended for another market. Usually means loads of red tape to undo.

brenneke · June 2002

Holy Smoke.....Canada is abroad?

malachy72 · June 2002

and one beautiful broad she is!

csandste · June 2002

it looks like Pennzoil and Quaker State are two very different products. If you look at the "which conventional oil is best?" thread (this from memory) on bobistheoilguy, you see some fairly interesting details from Johnny the Pennzoil employee.

Pennzoil's specs are much better than Quaker State and close to Chevron. SuperTech SJ is actually a bit better than Quaker State SL, although Johnny thinks QS might hold up better longer (an unproven thesis IMHO). Wolf's Head is now positioned as PZ/QS's budget oil and the specs really show its inferiority.

There's also some discussion over there on Pennzoil's new synthetic formulation, further confusing the line between PAO's and group 3 oils.

adc100 · June 2002

I thought this was the Syn Board

harry31 · June 2002

It's just a sin. =;-)

bigorange30 · June 2002

http://www.zmax.com/

They make all kinds of wild claims about increased gas mileage and less engine deposits. My Infiniti dealer also seems to believe in it as they advertise it there. My service rep told me today that it really works. Then I did a search for it on the internet and found this:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.htm

Anyone with real world experience that you can tell me about? Also, if I am using the Mobil1 synthetic and getting an extra 1.5 mpg is this going to be additive on top of that or would it take the place of the need to use synthetic? Any opinions?

adc100 · June 2002

You're planning on using it when it has been declared snake oil (aka.DuraLube) by the FTC?? No I wouldn't consider using a product that has no real promise of helping and probably will lessen the benefits of Mobil 1.

BTW got a price of 98.60 for 4 1 Gal containers of Delvac 1. 5W-40. Think I will go with it depending on my Mobil 1 oil analysis results. That works out to $6.16/quart.

Synthetic motor oil

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