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I am "required" to use the new 5-20 oil, which was jointly "spec'd" by Ford and initially "developed" by Conoco (for Ford, satisfying the additional Ford spec) and by Mobil Exxon (for Honda, no spec published but the bottle, with a Honda label, alludes to "Honda requirements"). What Ford says at their Motorcraft website:
"Motorcraft® 5W-20 motor oil dramatically outperforms and outprotects conventional motor oils. It meets the stringent WSS-M2C153-H Ford Motor Company specification to give the balance of engine durability and performance and to maximize fuel economy while reducing emissions. Due to its low volatility, low oil consumption is maintained. What this means for the environment is a motor oil that pollutes less."
Ford also adds that this oil is hydrocracked. From all that I have been able to research, the Ford oil is pretty good. Ford had to push the oil companies to develop it, and they resisted because 1) the base oils required cost more; and 2) as a new "grade" of oil there will be little after market desire, since the aftermarket apparently buys more 10-30 and 10-40 oils than any others. Even 5-30 has been a hard sell, according to the industry newsletters I was able to dig up on the web.
Anyway, the Honda variant (which may, or may not, also pass the Ford WSS-M2C153-H spec) is made by Exxon Mobil. It is "SL" grade, which is a significant upgrade over the former SG grade, but then again every other current oil is also SL, regardless of grade. I don't know if it is hydrocracked, although coming from Mobil I suspect it is. (Honda said they didn't need this grade for higher mileage per se, since their fleet is already so high mileage.)
My Honda dealer, however, in their infinitely perverse wisdom (probably based on some incentive contract from the oil distributor) uses Quaker State instead of the official Honda oil (which is being sold by my dealer's parts department for under $2.00 a quart, so it's not a big ripoff). A call to the Quaker State customer service line confirmed that Quaker State satisfies the more stringent Ford spec as well as the "SL" standard.
I was [reviously using the Ford 5-20 since it satisfies the very stringent Ford spec, and is also semi-synthetic now. Of course that meant buying the Ford oil at Walmart (cheapest there) and then carrying it in to the Honda dealer for installation.
At my last Honda oil change (7,500 miles), though, I opted to use the Quaker State, since I have decided to follow 3,400 mile oil changes after the first 10,000 miles (during which I am doing 2,500 mile oil changes) which will "hit" the 10k service intervals when Honda likes to see the car for inspections. I made this decision on the basis of a viscosity test on many manufacturers' oils, which indicated that in almost all grades Quaker State oils were near or at the top of the class, which surprised me. Also, since they are owned by Pennzoil, I am assuming Quaker State uses hydrocracked base oils. Any one know for sure? Any comments on Quaker State quality?
Any comments or suggestions? Do you think the Quaker State 5-20 is ok on this service interval? My other options are reverting to the semi-synthetic Motorcraft, which since it was developed in close partnership with Ford, is probably pretty good, or considering the new 5-20 Syntec Blend from Castrol, which is expensive for what it probably is. (About $1.00 a quart more than the Motorcraft).
Are Honda oil filters ok? That's what the service line uses. I was prejudiced against them before, because I had heard they were really Frams, with the usual cost cutting construction.
Oddly, since QS is the second best selling brand in America, there seems to be few Quaker State posts on Bobistheoilguy.com. What few references are generally favorable-- I see no reasons not to use it. It would be great if you did an oil analysis and posted it both here and at Bob's site.
Ford is a Phillips-Conoco product (more Conoco in its heritage) if I'm not mistaken. Also good oil.
I just broke in my new '03 Dodge Ram 1500 HEMI-EXPRESS. The 5.7L holds 7 qts. Still full at 504 miles. Manual says: 5-30 (preferred), 10-30. I live near desert in So. Ca so i want to use 10W-30. Expect temps to rise to 108F Deg.
I just have to choose between Mobil 1 or Pennzoil w/Pennzane. I read about that million mile '95 Chevy Silverado on Pennzoil. I think any vehicle that has oil changed every 4 days should go 1 million miles
I have a higher mileage Civic (194,000 miles) with no known engine problems. Its oil change interval has been 3000-5000 miles. Typically oil changes were performed by Honda dealer. Anyway my question is how good or bad is SuperTech oil, the dino ($0.84), Blend or full synthetic all pretty inexpensive. I have looked but have not found any hard evidence of them. I plan on 5000 miles oil changes the manual states for normal driving (my conditions) 7500 miles req'd using dino. Thanks for the insight.
because I get a recordable oil change for $11.84. If you use Wal-Mart's special make sure you specialize a SuperTech filter be substituted for the Fram. I like bottled oil rather than bulk because there have been a few reports of dishonest quick lube dealers substituting crap SA rated oil delivered by their buddy and copping the difference in change. I've also heard of counterfit bottled oil. No one's going to counterfit Supertech.
Most Wal-Mart clerks you ask will tell you SuperTech is Pennzoil or Quaker State. In reality it's made by a company that was called Specialty Petroleum in Shreveport. The plant was purchased by Quaker State several years ago, Quaker State was rolled into Pennzoil which is now being rolled into Shell. The Louisiana blending plant is scheduled to be closed, and the betting is that SuperTech will be merged into the Shell refineries to take up (partially) the loss of Havoline (Equilon to Chevron).
The only virgin oil analysis for SuperTech 5W30 on bobistheoilguy.com showed it to be better than Valvoline (fair amount of moly), but not as good as Pennzoil or Quaker State. Maybe about as good as Castrol among the big four. The only used oil test of ST was 5w30 in a Hyundai Sonata. Lots of 5W30 dino oils tend to shear back and the SuperTech was no exception. Not spectacular, but not bad enough to cause me to change brands.
I'm thinking of investing on a used oil analysis on my 01 Elantra with 40K miles, but hesitate to do so because the oil might well be totally different within a few months when the Shreveport plant is closed.
To make things more complex, there are some reports that SuperTech has Warren Performance Products out of Omaha/Council Bluffs as a producer of part of their run. In fact, my feeling is that Warren simply bottles under a separate contract. Tech 2000 oil in Canada has separate contracts for refining and bottling and I suspect Wal-Mart has done it here. Warren does manufacture for Sears (Spectrum), however, at least that what it says on the bottle.
Shell, given its size, is another mediocre performing oil--I think--haven't read many oil analyses on that brand. I remember Consumer Reports stating that it varied in different parts of the country in its 1995 test of oils. I have no idea whether Shell differs from Equilon-Havoline. If it does maybe that blend will become SuperTech. The Havoline made by Equilon was considered inferior to the Havoline made by Chevron.
SuperTech synthetic is group III. Canadian Tech 2000 synthetic fared very well in a used oil analysis, but that's Petro Canada, not Shell/PZ/QS/Specialty Petroleum. I've never seen any analysis of SuperTech synthetic. I assume it also is made by the same conglomerate, although I doubt if the Shreveport facility could crank out group III oils.
Wal-Marts supplier for bottles is probably different than their supplier for oil, so I don't expect any changes when production leaves Shreveport.
If I was looking for a good private label, under a buck, dino-- I'd probably pick Advance Auto Parts. Their label says "compare to Havoline" with the registration back to Chevron. If it's really Chevron-Havoline in those bottles that's a real good deal. If I go back to changing my oil, I'd probably give that a try.
I got some 10-30 Supertech Semi Synthetic for the VW Golf, 2001 normally aspirated, but based on what I've read here (that it isn't from an actual Quaker State refinery, but from one of a Shreveport refinery they acquired) I am just going to switch to "conventional" Chevron Supreme 10-30, which is available ever so cheap at Costco. From what I've read here, Chevron oils are hydrocracked and good quality... Any comments? My oil change interval will be approximatley 3,300 miles (to match the 10,000 mile service intervals on the Golf).
Oil consumption dropped from a quart every 1,000 miles with the former Mobil 1 5-30, to half a quart every 1,500 miles with semisynthetic Mobil Drive Clean 5-30 (go figure...).
the extra cash, I'd have no hesitation about putting it into the VW, especially on such a short change cycle. If I was buying more, I'd probably go with Chevron as being about as good for less money. Since the ST would have 10% or so group III, it might give Chevron a run for the money. I'd see no problem with either.
ST will probably be Shell by the end of the summer anyway.
I was walking through the Wal-Mart in Folsom, CA last Saturday and saw single quarts of Mobil-1 0W-30 bearing labels that said something like "Recommended for Ford/Mazda 5W-20 Applications". I thought it was kind of interesting from a product liability perspective. Mobil must have significant confidence in their product to recommend it in a non-standard application.
Mobil 1 is supposed to be coming out with a 0-20W that is suitable for Ford/Mazda/Honda use. Are you sure the oil you saw was 0-30W? That would be odd, although I have heard the 5-30 Mobil 1 is pretty thin (close to 22-25W) for a "30" oil.
Mobil claims "Mobil 1 0W-20 is recommended for all types of modern vehicles, especially high-performance turbo-charged 4 and 6 cylinder gasoline and diesel multi-valve fuel injected engines including those found in passenger cars, light vans and trucks.."
While I was searching the Mobil website, I came up with some interesting information on their conventional oils. Apparently their dino oils are "energy star" rated for fuel efficiency (in the oils that don't go heavier than x-30W). That's not noteworthy. What's interesting is the approach they take on their semi-synthetics. First, they claim there are "23%" more additives to help keep the car clean. Also, the 10-30 and 10-40 blends are "high mileage" formulas with seal conditioners; and th 10-30 isn't energy start. The only energy star compliant oil in the semi-synthetic line is the 5-30.
Mobil makes a 5-20, which is in their "non-blend" line.
Here is what Mobil says about their semi line, followed by the link:
"Mobil Drive Clean Plus are new premium synthetic blend formulas engineered to provide added performance and protection with formulations specially designed for both newer vehicles, 5W-30 and higher mileage vehicles, 10W-30 and 10W-40. These products contain a mixture of synthetic and quality conventional base stocks with premium performance additives boosted by 23% which means more advanced detergent, dispersant, and anti-oxidants to help maintain or restore engine cleanliness. ...and help prevent the build up of harmful sludge in hotter running engines, like turbocharged and light duty diesel engines. ..."
I think this is a tough marketing approach - the usual marketing approach is conventional, semi to save some bucks and get some benefits, and full synthetic for ultra performance with cost no problem.
The way I interpret it, Mobil's approach is more of an engineer's approach (and this is purely speculative):
1. We make a PAO full synthetic oil - not a "fake" "hydrocracked synthetic" oil like Castrol. End of story on the full synthetic issue - you really get your money's worth.
2. Our "conventional" oil is hydrocracked - hence it is almost as good as a "fake" synthetic (it still isn't as heavily reengineered as a Group III or IV oil).
3. So what can we add to a semi-synthetic oil, that isn't just "snake oil" marketing. Why, improve the _additives_ package, for cleaniness closer to full synthetic (which is one of full synthetic's big selling points), and make the 10-30w and 10-40w good for older engines (seal conditioners) since these grades are preferred by drivers of high mileage cars anyway.
So now I am wondering whether I should stick to Mobil Drive Clean Plus, their semi-synthetic, in my transition from Mobil 1 to conventional oil. I was going to switch over to Chevron Supreme at my next oil change, since that is a cheap but well made (hydrocracked, Group II or Group II+) oil I can get at Costco in 10-30w for my VW 2001 Golf, normally aspirated.
Any thoughts? Mobil Drive Clean Plus would cost 50 cents a quart more, negligible. My oil consumption has gone down with Mobil Drive Clean Plus 5-30w, versus the former Mobil 1 5-30w. Also my mileage has gone UP by a couple of miles per gallon, but that may be because the VW is being used more for freeway commuting and less for high speed runs up to the mountains lately.
Semi synthetic makes NO economic sense. With a 10% synthetic, I am sure that if you do the math you are better off mixing your own by blending in the appropriate amount of Mobil One. I say if you plan to stick with conventional between Mobil and Chevron, buy on price. Both meet the new SL rating.
(I have used and continue to use Mobil One 5w-30 and do 15k intervals)
Hi...you know...I think you're right. It probably was 0W-20. I'll be sure to look next time I'm over at Wal-Mart. I have a 2001 Ford Focus, 130 HP DOHC, 5-speed and even though Ford recommends 5W-20 oil, I have used Mobil-1 5W-30 exclusively (after break-in and with 5K oil and filter changes). I couldn't be more pleased. After 30K miles, the engine's runs perfectly, never, never raises the temp guage, even in 110* weather,and simply never uses oil. For me, the extra cost of a true full synthetic is well worth it in peace of mind. And, when the lease is up, whoever buys the car will be getting an engine in perfect condition. See ya!
Well, I beg to differ. Blending your own isn't advised by anyone else I know. Oils are designed as a package to work by themselves. Blending can be counter productive, even if blending products from the same manufacturer.
I use Schaeffers #703 blend because it costs less than Mobil 1 and consistently shows the ability to do extended drains and posts lower wear numbers than most off the shelf oils including Mobil 1.
I agree with ruking1 that the small quantity of "synthetic" added by the manufacturer to so-called "semi-synthetic" is too small to be significant. I agree with joatmon that blending your own isn't a good idea - the oils are supposed to be "compatible" but they aren't necessarily "ideal" when you mix them yourself - the Pennzoil rep told me that the proportions of viscoscity improvers are no longer ideal (because you are mixing in a synthetic with possibly no vi's to a conventional oil with them).
HOWEVER, the point I was trying to make is that the additive package for the Mobil Semi Synt (known as Mobil Drive Clean Plus) is the big difference - "23%" more additives, a promise of a cleaner engine, and CF diesel certification (diesels require oils that can handle a lot of contaminants).
I have the new PZEV 2.3L Focus ZX3 and love it. I was thinking about using Mobil 1 at 5,000 mile intervals - Ford's recommended "standard" change interval. Ford's Motorcraft filters are supposed to be good. I am sure the Mobil 1 will run easily out to the 5,000 miles - and since Ford's standard oil change interval is 5,000, undoubtedly the filter is good for that length, too.
I worry about filters. If you read the filter boxes, they are cagey about how long they are good for. Fram has some extra miles filters which are supposed to be good if you "miss" the 3k interval - making me wonder if their basic line of filters is supposed to wear out at 3k! Mobil 1 sells its own filter, of course, which is supposed to be pretty good - but they hedge their bets by saying the oil and filter are good for the normal service interval specified by the manufacturer - which is 5k for Ford, 10k for Honda and VW, 7.5k for Chrysler, and I believe a whopping 15k for BMW and Mercedes (or until the "service" light comes on).
Anyway, I am being really conservative with my Focus because the PZEV engine comes with a 150,000 mile warranty on emissions - and the 2003 Focci have 100,000 mile warranty on the power train - so for now I am sticking with Motorcraft 5-20, but I change it (at the dealer at a Fastlane, for $30) at 3k intervals since it is a dino oil.
Unless you are good at checking tire pressures, one additional advantage of 3k oil changes is at least getting the air pressure checked during the oil change by the oil changer (most do it as part of their service). I hear putting 35psi into warm tires falls within the ball park (checking them within less than mile of driving is considered best, after overnight parking). And getting fluids topped off. :-)
My only concern is that products like Schaffers are not commonly available. Basically you pay a tad more than 1 dollar per quart for shipping. Mobil One is also one of few group four synthetics, along with Redline and certain Amsoil products. I looked into Schaffers a while ago and is promoted on Bobstheoilguy, but after shipping, it costs more than 4.00 that I pay for the Mobil One. I take it you are doing drains in excess of 15,000 miles? In that sense if Schaffers holds up between 25,000 and 30,000 miles it probably makes economic sense, but I havent seen you put that down so I am talking about under 15,000 miles!
The 23% more is meaningless. 23% more of what than what? I thing the additive package is very important and you must consider how it works. The best way to accomplish that is via a UOA (used oil analysis). Changing some or all additives by 23% may or may not reduce wear.
Go to Bob's site and look for oils used in the same or a similar engine as you have if you don't want to do a UOA of your own. You may see patterns that indicate which oils perform better than others. Bob's site has favorites, but there're usually backup by the hard evidence of a UOA.
I understand that Schaeffers is 18 - 25% PAO. Yes, Scheaffers is not readily available. I paid $2.66 a quart including shipping for a large order. I really think that Schaeffers #703 and Mobil 1 give similar performance. Mobil 1 has availability going for it. Schaeffers has 2 things going for it: it seems to not thin out in as many cases as Mobil 1 and Schaeffers doesn't change the formula all the time. When Mobil 1 comes out with the New and Improved Syn, what does that tell you about the Mobil 1 that's still in your crankcase?
After spending some time on bobistheoilguy I decided to go with Schaeffers Supreme 7000 5W-30 for my Hondas. I just bought a new Accord LX Coupe Monday and plan to start running the Schaeffers in it after about 1500 miles. I am going to do analysis on the breakin oil as well as the first few oil changes with the Schaeffers. I need to find someone within 100 miles of Nashville or maybe between Nashville and Atlanta to go in with me on some Schaeffers large quantity purchase to save the shipping costs....but I am going to use this oil even if I have to pay the shipping.
I plan to do 5000 mile (I drive several 4 mile trips every day) change intervals until I can get analysis support to extend the intervals. I would probably never go over 8-10K intervals even with a good analysis.
Hi again. I've used the long-life Motocraft (Ford) filter for the Focus exclusively. They're only a few bucks each at Wally-World and I figure with changing the oil and filter every 5K, I don't need to pay 2 or 3 times as much for the extended drain capability. Ya, I really like the Focus as a commute car. Mine's a ZTS with 5 speed, leather, a killer stereo and all the power stuff. My only complaint is that its very much underpowered especially with the A/C on. In order to stay with traffic, I routinely shift between 4,500 and 6,000 RPM. I have no hesitation in doing that with Mobil-1 in the crankcase. I read about the new engine like the one you've got and it sounds like just what Ford needed in smog-prone areas. Good luck!
( HOWEVER, the point I was trying to make is that the additive package for the Mobil Semi Synt (known as Mobil Drive Clean Plus) is the big difference - "23%" more additives, a promise of a cleaner engine, and CF diesel certification (diesels require oils that can handle a lot of contaminants).)
Time will tell on this new formulation from Mobil.It does promise to be a very good motor oil at this point and if so it will be very cost effective and easy to aquire at local stores.
Until then I will continue to use the 1.33 per quart Motorcraft oil that gives superb protection as shown through my multiple engine oil analysis's that I chose to do only for a baselines to see how far I could go on the intervals between changes " 5k easily with Motorcraft oil filter". Oil anaylisis IMO is not so cost effective but hey,I found a good motor oil with it's use !
The original Mobil Drive Clean had a lot of group I in it. Group I doesn't have very good performance; flash point, pour point etc, were quite marginal compared to most other brands. Group I does have good detergency, however-- hence "Drive Clean". Maybe the new oil is moving away from the group I formulation and needs more detergents, hence the 23% more additives comment.
csandtse - sad to hear that Mobil Drive Clean is Group I. I would much prefer to use Group II. Is the Mobil Drive Clean semi-synthetic also Group I, or Group II? My other option for the VW is Chevron Supreme 10-30 which is "iso-syn".
ethomass4 - I use Motorcraft in my Mustang - the 5-20 formulation. I researched Motorcraft (no oil tests, though!) and found out it is "hydroclear" from Conoco - Group II, well made, so I am more than happy to use it - and it is readily available at my Ford Fastlane service line (while you wait). Did you publish your tests anywhere so I can read them - on bobistheoilguy.com etc? I change oil at 3,000 miles on the Ford.
Mobil has a pretty good reputation, although the numbers aren't all that good. My suspicion is that the base stocks are being changed to 2 or 2+, hence the reference to more additives. I also wonder whether group I will pass post SL standards. Other than that, Mobil's cleaim to "drive clean" seems to be more than just advertising jargon. That ain't all bad.
Yes I have some analysis "of the same motor with some different oils" that I can post later this evening but in the meantime the Mobil Drive Clean is a group I/II blended formulation.
As far as blends go the Mobil Blend is actually a very good motor oil in bang for the buck compared to single quart pricing of near 2.00 per quart of some of the other major brand mineral oils.
I personally would never mail order any oil with these very good oils that are becoming available to us on a near monthly basis now.As soon as one stocks up on a oil it seems a new type comes out that outperforme what you just stocked up on but in Ford motors it is still very difficult to beat the Motorcraft oil in price vs performance as you will see when I post a few analysis.
On topic of posting analysis I would prefer to see a actual scanned report because those numbers are sooooooo easily manipulated if you know what I mean ? Not that anyone would cheat to make the favorites look better Ha Ha !
Oildropserver ? What is that ???? An oil sales promotional type board ?
I order my oil from the factory. It's nice to know that they don't come out with a new and improved oil this month and a newer and more improved oil next month. I like 10W30 that is ACEA A3/B3.
The manufacturer's recommended viscosity grade for '99 Hyundai Sonata (2.0-liter, 4 cylinder) is 10W-30.
I have been using 5W-40 ZIC XQ manufactured by SK Corporation (www.skzic.com) because it is marketed as premium oil in Korea and I can buy it for $3.35 per liter (1.057 quart). Although it is labeled as "100% Synthetic" on the bottle, I doubt it. SK happens to sell another brand called "ZIC TOP" which is more expensive than ZIC XQ. They advertise ZIC TOP as "100% Synthetic" in the Korean web page, yet in the English webpage "fully synthetic." Can anyone explain the diffence between these terms? In any case, ZIC XQ is advertised as:
*Excellent engine protection in extremely high & low temperatures *Remarkable anti-wear properties *Outstanding fuel economy *Exceeds all major car brand requirements of API SL, ACEA A3/B3/B4, BENZ, VW 502,505.
Now that Mobil 1 with Supersyn (10W-30) is available in Korea for $8.37 per quart, I am being tempted to try it out. But somebody here has mentioned that Mobil Supersyn is not "100% Synthetic" and its quality not good as before. Please confirm.
I plan to drive at least 6,250 miles between the oil changes and I use K&N air filter and Mobil 1 M1-104 high efficieny oil filter ($11.68) for maximum oil protection. Thanks in advance.
If your comparison oil is a Group 4 oil (not likely) it is in the same neighborhood as Mobil One, Delvac, Redline, Amsoil..
Mobil synthetic is a group 4 oil and uses 100% PAO's for the synthetic side, but as you know, it is blended with other components to make the product known as SS. 8.37 US per qt would give me pause in using Mobil One 10w-30. Since Diesels are more commonly available WW, you might give a look at Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40(synthetic). In the states, the costs are 4 and 5 dollars per qt respectively. Who knows, Mobil Delvac 1 might be cheaper in your situation! The reason Delvac 1 is so cool is that it is backwards compatible with both SL AND SJ for gassers!!! (SJ was probably the standard when your 99 Hundai Sonata was new) I use both Mobil One 5w-30 with a 15k mile oil and oil filter change interval (on 94,96,97 Toyota Landcruisers and 2001 Z06 Corvette) and Mobil Delvac with a 10,000 mile oil and oil change interval(2003 VW Jetta TDI). When the warranty is up at 4 years and or 50,000 miles I will go to either 15,000 or 20,000 on the Delvac.
Blackstone labs did the analysis. They were not overly concerned about anything. They did comment that they would like to see a lower lead content. I am setting my limit based on this at 8500. Their minimum on the TBN is 1.0 a little lower than what I thought should be a minimum but they know more about that than I do. I am uncomfortable going further without more testingat 8500 that looks better. I may revisit in a future oil change.
for Blackstone Labs I believe. 1.9 under the new method is probably not as bad as it appears when related to your earlier test using the old method for TBN.
They didn't say anything about that when I called and discussed the report or in the comments section of the report. What changes did they make? Can you give me a reference of what something specific would have tested under the old test and what it tests under the new one? Maybe that's why they felt 1.0 was the minimum instead of 2.0. Another reason I don't feel comfortable pushing it further is that the viscosity got out of range at 8662 miles and the wear metals are getting a little high. What is your opinion of my results?
I think the '02 QX4 comes with the 3.5L VQ, correct? Of course your vehicle is heavier than my G35 but we have the same engine. I'll certainly compare your results to the analysis I'll be doing in a couple of weeks.
I'm new to this forum. I have a 2003 Vibe with 20,000 miles. I switched to M1 5w30 at 1,500 miles. I change oil and filter at 5K and use a PureOne filter.
I'm considering switching to Pennzoil conventional because M1 is $4.77/qt at Wal-mart and Pennzoil is $1.50. I read the Mobil1 website and it says that M1 is made of "high performance fluids" including PAOs. What percentage of M1 is PAO? I became suspicious of M1's PAO content back when Tri-synthetic was introduced. But, at the time I could buy M1 at Wal-mart for around $3.50/qt so I didn't sweat it.
Is either Quaker State synthetic or Havoline synthetic a good alternative? Each is less than $4.00/qt at Wal-mart. I can't tell from the MSDS if QS uses PAO. Or should I just end this synthetic oil nightmare and use Pennzoil with hydrocracked purebase?
M1 is available at any Wal-Mart for $3.78/qt. You just have to look for the spotty occasions when they get the 5 qt jugs in. It happens about 3 times/year. I bought 15 qts last month when they came in at my local Wal-Mart. You can also get this price at BJ's warehouse all the time if you are a member. If you use all of the useful life of the oil to the same degree that you do a dino oil, the synthetic ends up being cheaper. Why do you want to spend more money using a dino oil? You are leaving oil life on the table by changing ever 5K miles. Please refer to my oil analysis in #5299. It shows that I can use an 8500 mile interval and only have to change the oil about twice/year. I have also seen about 1 mpg savings which easily pays for all of my oil.
Thanks bigorange 30. It's not really practical for me to buy the 5-quart size of M1 because my car uses only 4 quarts. I get my oil changed at a quick lube place because I don't have a place to do it myself right now and, even though the guys who work there are conscientious, I'm not sure that they wouldn't overfill the engine by a few ounces.
I live in Nashville and the climate only provides a few days in the 0-10 degree range each winter. So, am I wasting money by using synthetic? Although I like the way that my car springs to life on a 0 degree morning with M1, I'm not convinced that Pennzoil won't protect my engine on a typical day.
I am a former Army officer, engineer, presently in grad school at Vanderbilt. I will avoid wasting money when I can. However, I have an obsessive, compulsive need to change the oil in my car. I suppose I need some type of 8,000 mile oil change therapy to get past my hang-up, because it just seems too long.
I remember that, as a young Army officer, I sent in AOAP oil samples for my vehicles. Even when the oil was as black as coal the AOAP analysis would always say that the oil was okay. I followed the oil analysis recommendations then, but I always felt uneasy trusting my life to diesel engines that were running on old, funky oil.
I saved one of my quart containers and pour off the quart from the big jug. My Corolla takes 4 qts (and burns 1 every 3,000) I keep the qt in the the back of the car and add 1/3 every 1,000.
My nickname will indicate how I feel about Vanderbilt though.
I understand your concern about the quicky lube overfilling your engine. I don't like taking my car to those guys. They stripped out an oil pan drain plug beyond retapping and I had to get a new pan put in. If you just have to do that, BJ's Warehouse that I mentioned sells their M1 for about the same price but in quart bottles.
I used to be the way you are about changing my oil every 3K miles but when I found that I was wasting my money doing it, I had to rethink. I am an engineer who does a lot of research and analysis on issues like this. I have also found that oil color has nothing to do with the quality. Analysis tells you whether your oil is good or not. If you are insist on changing your oil every 5K, you will still get better protection with a synthetic (less wear on the engine parts etc.) but it WILL cost you more money. If you get the mpg improvement that I got, it will offset some of it. Penzoil will not go 5K. You should change it at about 3 or so. I just don't want to take the time every month to change my oil. With 2 cars, at least one of them would have to go each month. I want to spend it doing more enjoyable things. Now, I go twice/year for each car.
Would anyone recommend 7.5K miles oil change intervals for M1 5-30 for a car with about 40K miles (Maxima)? I wonder if it is absolutely safe without doing any oil analysis. The driving conditions are city/highway - 50/50. About 20K miles per year.
Or if you think 7.5K miles is not safe what is the maximum interval you will feel comfortable with - again no oil analysis.
Comments
I am "required" to use the new 5-20 oil, which was jointly "spec'd" by Ford and initially "developed" by Conoco (for Ford, satisfying the additional Ford spec) and by Mobil Exxon (for Honda, no spec published but the bottle, with a Honda label, alludes to "Honda requirements"). What Ford says at their Motorcraft website:
"Motorcraft® 5W-20 motor oil dramatically outperforms and outprotects conventional motor oils. It meets the stringent WSS-M2C153-H Ford Motor Company specification to give the balance of engine durability and performance and to maximize fuel economy while reducing emissions. Due to its low volatility, low oil consumption is maintained. What this means for the environment is a motor oil that pollutes less."
Ford also adds that this oil is hydrocracked. From all that I have been able to research, the Ford oil is pretty good. Ford had to push the oil companies to develop it, and they resisted because 1) the base oils required cost more; and 2) as a new "grade" of oil there will be little after market desire, since the aftermarket apparently buys more 10-30 and 10-40 oils than any others. Even 5-30 has been a hard sell, according to the industry newsletters I was able to dig up on the web.
Anyway, the Honda variant (which may, or may not, also pass the Ford WSS-M2C153-H spec) is made by Exxon Mobil. It is "SL" grade, which is a significant upgrade over the former SG grade, but then again every other current oil is also SL, regardless of grade. I don't know if it is hydrocracked, although coming from Mobil I suspect it is. (Honda said they didn't need this grade for higher mileage per se, since their fleet is already so high mileage.)
My Honda dealer, however, in their infinitely perverse wisdom (probably based on some incentive contract from the oil distributor) uses Quaker State instead of the official Honda oil (which is being sold by my dealer's parts department for under $2.00 a quart, so it's not a big ripoff). A call to the Quaker State customer service line confirmed that Quaker State satisfies the more stringent Ford spec as well as the "SL" standard.
I was [reviously using the Ford 5-20 since it satisfies the very stringent Ford spec, and is also semi-synthetic now. Of course that meant buying the Ford oil at Walmart (cheapest there) and then carrying it in to the Honda dealer for installation.
At my last Honda oil change (7,500 miles), though, I opted to use the Quaker State, since I have decided to follow 3,400 mile oil changes after the first 10,000 miles (during which I am doing 2,500 mile oil changes) which will "hit" the 10k service intervals when Honda likes to see the car for inspections. I made this decision on the basis of a viscosity test on many manufacturers' oils, which indicated that in almost all grades Quaker State oils were near or at the top of the class, which surprised me. Also, since they are owned by Pennzoil, I am assuming Quaker State uses hydrocracked base oils. Any one know for sure? Any comments on Quaker State quality?
Any comments or suggestions? Do you think the Quaker State 5-20 is ok on this service interval? My other options are reverting to the semi-synthetic Motorcraft, which since it was developed in close partnership with Ford, is probably pretty good, or considering the new 5-20 Syntec Blend from Castrol, which is expensive for what it probably is. (About $1.00 a quart more than the Motorcraft).
Are Honda oil filters ok? That's what the service line uses. I was prejudiced against them before, because I had heard they were really Frams, with the usual cost cutting construction.
Ford is a Phillips-Conoco product (more Conoco in its heritage) if I'm not mistaken. Also good oil.
I live near desert in So. Ca so i want to use 10W-30. Expect temps to rise to 108F Deg.
I just have to choose between Mobil 1 or Pennzoil w/Pennzane. I read about that million mile '95 Chevy Silverado on Pennzoil. I think any vehicle that has oil changed every 4 days should go 1 million miles
If memory serves me right, 800 mi a day delivering the WALL STREET JOURNAL..
Most Wal-Mart clerks you ask will tell you SuperTech is Pennzoil or Quaker State. In reality it's made by a company that was called Specialty Petroleum in Shreveport. The plant was purchased by Quaker State several years ago, Quaker State was rolled into Pennzoil which is now being rolled into Shell. The Louisiana blending plant is scheduled to be closed, and the betting is that SuperTech will be merged into the Shell refineries to take up (partially) the loss of Havoline (Equilon to Chevron).
The only virgin oil analysis for SuperTech 5W30 on bobistheoilguy.com showed it to be better than Valvoline (fair amount of moly), but not as good as Pennzoil or Quaker State. Maybe about as good as Castrol among the big four. The only used oil test of ST was 5w30 in a Hyundai Sonata. Lots of 5W30 dino oils tend to shear back and the SuperTech was no exception. Not spectacular, but not bad enough to cause me to change brands.
I'm thinking of investing on a used oil analysis on my 01 Elantra with 40K miles, but hesitate to do so because the oil might well be totally different within a few months when the Shreveport plant is closed.
To make things more complex, there are some reports that SuperTech has Warren Performance Products out of Omaha/Council Bluffs as a producer of part of their run. In fact, my feeling is that Warren simply bottles under a separate contract. Tech 2000 oil in Canada has separate contracts for refining and bottling and I suspect Wal-Mart has done it here. Warren does manufacture for Sears (Spectrum), however, at least that what it says on the bottle.
Shell, given its size, is another mediocre performing oil--I think--haven't read many oil analyses on that brand. I remember Consumer Reports stating that it varied in different parts of the country in its 1995 test of oils. I have no idea whether Shell differs from Equilon-Havoline. If it does maybe that blend will become SuperTech. The Havoline made by Equilon was considered inferior to the Havoline made by Chevron.
SuperTech synthetic is group III. Canadian Tech 2000 synthetic fared very well in a used oil analysis, but that's Petro Canada, not Shell/PZ/QS/Specialty Petroleum. I've never seen any analysis of SuperTech synthetic. I assume it also is made by the same conglomerate, although I doubt if the Shreveport facility could crank out group III oils.
Wal-Marts supplier for bottles is probably different than their supplier for oil, so I don't expect any changes when production leaves Shreveport.
If I was looking for a good private label, under a buck, dino-- I'd probably pick Advance Auto Parts. Their label says "compare to Havoline" with the registration back to Chevron. If it's really Chevron-Havoline in those bottles that's a real good deal. If I go back to changing my oil, I'd probably give that a try.
Oil consumption dropped from a quart every 1,000 miles with the former Mobil 1 5-30, to half a quart every 1,500 miles with semisynthetic Mobil Drive Clean 5-30 (go figure...).
ST will probably be Shell by the end of the summer anyway.
Of course, how many Advance Stores can you visit 8^)
TB
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_0W-2- 0.asp
Mobil claims "Mobil 1 0W-20 is recommended for all types of modern vehicles, especially high-performance turbo-charged 4 and 6 cylinder gasoline and diesel multi-valve fuel injected engines including those found in passenger cars, light vans and trucks.."
Here is the corresponding page for the 0-30W:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_0W-3- 0.asp#SpecsApprovalsTitle
Mobil makes a 5-20, which is in their "non-blend" line.
Here is what Mobil says about their semi line, followed by the link:
"Mobil Drive Clean Plus are new premium synthetic blend formulas engineered to provide added performance and protection with formulations specially designed for both newer vehicles, 5W-30 and higher mileage vehicles, 10W-30 and 10W-40. These products contain a mixture of synthetic and quality conventional base stocks with premium performance additives boosted by 23% which means more advanced detergent, dispersant, and anti-oxidants to help maintain or restore engine cleanliness. ...and help prevent the build up of harmful sludge in hotter running engines, like turbocharged and light duty diesel engines. ..."
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Drive- _Clean_Plus.asp
I think this is a tough marketing approach - the usual marketing approach is conventional, semi to save some bucks and get some benefits, and full synthetic for ultra performance with cost no problem.
The way I interpret it, Mobil's approach is more of an engineer's approach (and this is purely speculative):
1. We make a PAO full synthetic oil - not a "fake" "hydrocracked synthetic" oil like Castrol. End of story on the full synthetic issue - you really get your money's worth.
2. Our "conventional" oil is hydrocracked - hence it is almost as good as a "fake" synthetic (it still isn't as heavily reengineered as a Group III or IV oil).
3. So what can we add to a semi-synthetic oil, that isn't just "snake oil" marketing. Why, improve the _additives_ package, for cleaniness closer to full synthetic (which is one of full synthetic's big selling points), and make the 10-30w and 10-40w good for older engines (seal conditioners) since these grades are preferred by drivers of high mileage cars anyway.
So now I am wondering whether I should stick to Mobil Drive Clean Plus, their semi-synthetic, in my transition from Mobil 1 to conventional oil. I was going to switch over to Chevron Supreme at my next oil change, since that is a cheap but well made (hydrocracked, Group II or Group II+) oil I can get at Costco in 10-30w for my VW 2001 Golf, normally aspirated.
Any thoughts? Mobil Drive Clean Plus would cost 50 cents a quart more, negligible. My oil consumption has gone down with Mobil Drive Clean Plus 5-30w, versus the former Mobil 1 5-30w. Also my mileage has gone UP by a couple of miles per gallon, but that may be because the VW is being used more for freeway commuting and less for high speed runs up to the mountains lately.
(I have used and continue to use Mobil One 5w-30 and do 15k intervals)
I use Schaeffers #703 blend because it costs less than Mobil 1 and consistently shows the ability to do extended drains and posts lower wear numbers than most off the shelf oils including Mobil 1.
Jack
HOWEVER, the point I was trying to make is that the additive package for the Mobil Semi Synt (known as Mobil Drive Clean Plus) is the big difference - "23%" more additives, a promise of a cleaner engine, and CF diesel certification (diesels require oils that can handle a lot of contaminants).
I worry about filters. If you read the filter boxes, they are cagey about how long they are good for. Fram has some extra miles filters which are supposed to be good if you "miss" the 3k interval - making me wonder if their basic line of filters is supposed to wear out at 3k! Mobil 1 sells its own filter, of course, which is supposed to be pretty good - but they hedge their bets by saying the oil and filter are good for the normal service interval specified by the manufacturer - which is 5k for Ford, 10k for Honda and VW, 7.5k for Chrysler, and I believe a whopping 15k for BMW and Mercedes (or until the "service" light comes on).
Anyway, I am being really conservative with my Focus because the PZEV engine comes with a 150,000 mile warranty on emissions - and the 2003 Focci have 100,000 mile warranty on the power train - so for now I am sticking with Motorcraft 5-20, but I change it (at the dealer at a Fastlane, for $30) at 3k intervals since it is a dino oil.
Unless you are good at checking tire pressures, one additional advantage of 3k oil changes is at least getting the air pressure checked during the oil change by the oil changer (most do it as part of their service). I hear putting 35psi into warm tires falls within the ball park (checking them within less than mile of driving is considered best, after overnight parking). And getting fluids topped off. :-)
Go to Bob's site and look for oils used in the same or a similar engine as you have if you don't want to do a UOA of your own. You may see patterns that indicate which oils perform better than others. Bob's site has favorites, but there're usually backup by the hard evidence of a UOA.
I understand that Schaeffers is 18 - 25% PAO. Yes, Scheaffers is not readily available. I paid $2.66 a quart including shipping for a large order. I really think that Schaeffers #703 and Mobil 1 give similar performance. Mobil 1 has availability going for it. Schaeffers has 2 things going for it: it seems to not thin out in as many cases as Mobil 1 and Schaeffers doesn't change the formula all the time. When Mobil 1 comes out with the New and Improved Syn, what does that tell you about the Mobil 1 that's still in your crankcase?
Jack
I plan to do 5000 mile (I drive several 4 mile trips every day) change intervals until I can get analysis support to extend the intervals. I would probably never go over 8-10K intervals even with a good analysis.
with changing the oil and filter every 5K, I don't need to pay 2 or 3 times as much for the extended drain capability.
Ya, I really like the Focus as a commute car. Mine's a ZTS with 5 speed, leather, a killer stereo and all the power stuff. My only complaint is that its very much underpowered especially with the A/C on. In order to stay with traffic, I routinely shift between 4,500 and 6,000 RPM. I have no hesitation in doing that with Mobil-1 in the crankcase. I read about the new engine like the one you've got and it sounds like just what Ford needed in smog-prone areas. Good luck!
Time will tell on this new formulation from Mobil.It does promise to be a very good motor oil at this point and if so it will be very cost effective and easy to aquire at local stores.
Until then I will continue to use the 1.33 per quart Motorcraft oil that gives superb protection as shown through my multiple engine oil analysis's that I chose to do only for a baselines to see how far I could go on the intervals between changes " 5k easily with Motorcraft oil filter". Oil anaylisis IMO is not so cost effective but hey,I found a good motor oil with it's use !
ethomass4 - I use Motorcraft in my Mustang - the 5-20 formulation. I researched Motorcraft (no oil tests, though!) and found out it is "hydroclear" from Conoco - Group II, well made, so I am more than happy to use it - and it is readily available at my Ford Fastlane service line (while you wait). Did you publish your tests anywhere so I can read them - on bobistheoilguy.com etc? I change oil at 3,000 miles on the Ford.
There are no UOA's that I could find.
As far as blends go the Mobil Blend is actually a very good motor oil in bang for the buck compared to single quart pricing of near 2.00 per quart of some of the other major brand mineral oils.
I personally would never mail order any oil with these very good oils that are becoming available to us on a near monthly basis now.As soon as one stocks up on a oil it seems a new type comes out that outperforme what you just stocked up on but in Ford motors it is still very difficult to beat the Motorcraft oil in price vs performance as you will see when I post a few analysis.
On topic of posting analysis I would prefer to see a actual scanned report because those numbers are sooooooo easily manipulated if you know what I mean ? Not that anyone would cheat to make the favorites look better Ha Ha !
Oildropserver ? What is that ???? An oil sales promotional type board ?
I order my oil from the factory. It's nice to know that they don't come out with a new and improved oil this month and a newer and more improved oil next month. I like 10W30 that is ACEA A3/B3.
But, YMMV.
Happy Motoring,
Jack
I have been using 5W-40 ZIC XQ manufactured by SK Corporation (www.skzic.com) because it is marketed as premium oil in Korea and I can buy it for $3.35 per liter (1.057 quart). Although it is labeled as "100% Synthetic" on the bottle, I doubt it. SK happens to sell another brand called "ZIC TOP" which is more expensive than ZIC XQ. They advertise ZIC TOP as "100% Synthetic" in the Korean web page, yet in the English webpage "fully synthetic." Can anyone explain the diffence between these terms? In any case, ZIC XQ is advertised as:
*Excellent engine protection in extremely high & low temperatures
*Remarkable anti-wear properties
*Outstanding fuel economy
*Exceeds all major car brand requirements of API
SL, ACEA A3/B3/B4, BENZ, VW 502,505.
Now that Mobil 1 with Supersyn (10W-30) is available in Korea for $8.37 per quart, I am being tempted to try it out. But somebody here has mentioned that Mobil Supersyn is not "100% Synthetic" and its quality not good as before. Please confirm.
I plan to drive at least 6,250 miles between the oil changes and I use K&N air filter and Mobil 1 M1-104 high efficieny oil filter ($11.68) for maximum oil protection. Thanks in advance.
Mobil synthetic is a group 4 oil and uses 100% PAO's for the synthetic side, but as you know, it is blended with other components to make the product known as SS. 8.37 US per qt would give me pause in using Mobil One 10w-30. Since Diesels are more commonly available WW, you might give a look at Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40(synthetic). In the states, the costs are 4 and 5 dollars per qt respectively. Who knows, Mobil Delvac 1 might be cheaper in your situation! The reason Delvac 1 is so cool is that it is backwards compatible with both SL AND SJ for gassers!!! (SJ was probably the standard when your 99 Hundai Sonata was new) I use both Mobil One 5w-30 with a 15k mile oil and oil filter change interval (on 94,96,97 Toyota Landcruisers and 2001 Z06 Corvette) and Mobil Delvac with a 10,000 mile oil and oil change interval(2003 VW Jetta TDI). When the warranty is up at 4 years and or 50,000 miles I will go to either 15,000 or 20,000 on the Delvac.
As you know diesel is harder on oil than gassers.
Oil: Mobil1 10W30
Vehicle: 2002 QX4
Miles on oil: 6841, 8662
Miles on vehicle: 10205, 25679
Aluminum (8): 8, 7
Chromium (4): 3, 4
Iron (26): 23, 28
Copper (19): 30, 8
Lead (14): 9, 19
Tin (3): 5, 0
Molybdenum (8): 3, 13
Nickel (1): 1, 1
Manganese (3): 4, 1
Silver (0): 0, 0
Titanium (0): 0, 0
Potassium (2): 0, 3
Boron (44): 42, 45
Silicon (18): 21, 15
Sodium (8): 8, 7
Calcium (1057): 879, 1234
Magnesium (1203): 1203, 1202
Phosphorous(626): 620, 631
Zinc (740): 760, 719
Barium (1): 1, 0
TBN (>1.0): 8.0, 1.9
SUS Viscosity @ 210 F (59-68): 62.2, 68.8
Blackstone labs did the analysis. They were not overly concerned about anything. They did comment that they would like to see a lower lead content. I am setting my limit based on this at 8500. Their minimum on the TBN is 1.0 a little lower than what I thought should be a minimum but they know more about that than I do. I am uncomfortable going further without more testingat 8500 that looks better. I may revisit in a future oil change.
Jack
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000398;p=2#000045
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000627#000004
Jack
I think the '02 QX4 comes with the 3.5L VQ, correct? Of course your vehicle is heavier than my G35 but we have the same engine. I'll certainly compare your results to the analysis I'll be doing in a couple of weeks.
I'm considering switching to Pennzoil conventional because M1 is $4.77/qt at Wal-mart and Pennzoil is $1.50. I read the Mobil1 website and it says that M1 is made of "high performance fluids" including PAOs. What percentage of M1 is PAO? I became suspicious of M1's PAO content back when Tri-synthetic was introduced. But, at the time I could buy M1 at Wal-mart for around $3.50/qt so I didn't sweat it.
Is either Quaker State synthetic or Havoline synthetic a good alternative? Each is less than $4.00/qt at Wal-mart. I can't tell from the MSDS if QS uses PAO. Or should I just end this synthetic oil nightmare and use Pennzoil with hydrocracked purebase?
Any advice?
I live in Nashville and the climate only provides a few days in the 0-10 degree range each winter. So, am I wasting money by using synthetic? Although I like the way that my car springs to life on a 0 degree morning with M1, I'm not convinced that Pennzoil won't protect my engine on a typical day.
I am a former Army officer, engineer, presently in grad school at Vanderbilt. I will avoid wasting money when I can. However, I have an obsessive, compulsive need to change the oil in my car. I suppose I need some type of 8,000 mile oil change therapy to get past my hang-up, because it just seems too long.
I remember that, as a young Army officer, I sent in AOAP oil samples for my vehicles. Even when the oil was as black as coal the AOAP analysis would always say that the oil was okay. I followed the oil analysis recommendations then, but I always felt uneasy trusting my life to diesel engines that were running on old, funky oil.
I understand your concern about the quicky lube overfilling your engine. I don't like taking my car to those guys. They stripped out an oil pan drain plug beyond retapping and I had to get a new pan put in. If you just have to do that, BJ's Warehouse that I mentioned sells their M1 for about the same price but in quart bottles.
I used to be the way you are about changing my oil every 3K miles but when I found that I was wasting my money doing it, I had to rethink. I am an engineer who does a lot of research and analysis on issues like this. I have also found that oil color has nothing to do with the quality. Analysis tells you whether your oil is good or not. If you are insist on changing your oil every 5K, you will still get better protection with a synthetic (less wear on the engine parts etc.) but it WILL cost you more money. If you get the mpg improvement that I got, it will offset some of it. Penzoil will not go 5K. You should change it at about 3 or so. I just don't want to take the time every month to change my oil. With 2 cars, at least one of them would have to go each month. I want to spend it doing more enjoyable things. Now, I go twice/year for each car.
Or if you think 7.5K miles is not safe what is the maximum interval you will feel comfortable with - again no oil analysis.
Thanks!