Have you ever done any UOA's to find out if the Mobil 1 EP oil is actually good for 15K miles? I was thinking about switching to this stuff in my Corolla so I could go the 15K OCI, but many people have said not to do it without do UOA's first.
"Have you ever done any UOA's to find out if the Mobil 1 EP oil is actually good for 15K miles? I was thinking about switching to this stuff in my Corolla so I could go the 15K OCI, but many people have said not to do it without do UOA's first. "
A killer question!! Most folks don't make this connection. If you go with the oem recommendation (in my case a Honda Civic for 10,000 miles (5w20 conventional oil TBN 7) and do treadline UOA's, you get a read on:
1. how "conservative" or on the edge the oem recommendations are in real time and world.
2. YOU as a driver
3. the condtions you find yourself operating under.
So in the case of my Honda Civic 5w20 conventional oil with a TBN of 7, does Mobil One EP with a TBN of 12 last longer than with a TBN of 7? And how much? Also does ones particular engine have any specific wear issues.
No I have never done UOA this is my secong oil change with Mobil1 5-w20. I change at Fords recommended 5000 miles. I have ordered a test kit and will do an UOA this drain.
No I've never done any testings. For my old Geo I don't care that much. As long as I keep the oil full and it looks clean by eye, I'm going to extend the oil changes as long as I can. Based on what I've read here so far, I should be fine. On the other hand, I'll be a lot more conservative with our new Nissan minivan, which I use Mobile 1 for.
Ok, I'm a smart guy but not a gear head. I'd love to pick up some info but you guy's speak greek!!
Trying to decide whether or not to use synthetic in new 06 Maxima and on what intervals. If someone is willing to explain in plain english, would be much appreciated.
Just buy a jug of Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum in the grade for your car (5-30 or 5-20) and carry it in to the dealer when you go in for oil changes. It's only $20 to buy a jug at Walmart, and you'll save a few bucks on the dealer oil change because they will credit you for the oil you are not using from them.
As a rule of thumb if you get close to the highway mpg rating on your car, 5,000 mile oil changes are fine, but if you get closer to the city rating, 3,000 mile oil changes are better (since city driving and other low mpg factors link pretty closely to how beat up your oil is getting). My quick take on full synthetic is that it is a well engineered oil which protects your car better, not longer. BOTH regular and full synthetic oils tend to shear down in viscoscity grades at similar rates, and both tend to have similar additive packs (from major makers). The recent upgrade to SM specification for oils essentially narrowed a lot of former differences between regular and full synthetics.
(Some people will tell you that you can go a lot of miles on full synthetic without a problem, but there is also evidence you can go the same distance on regular motor oil from a major producer, which leads me to conclude that sump size vs. engine displacement and driving conditions are the real determining factor. In any case, read your manual's recommendations and follow that - before you follow the dealer's advice. Dealers tend to oversell oil changes and tuneups.)
I would say since the bar has been raised considerably. For example the Honda Civic has an oem recommendation of 10,000 mile oci's with every other oci filter change. or 20,000 miles with CONVENTIONAL oil. The sump indeed is 3.4 qt with oil filter change and 3.2 without. So yes IF you were able to change the system/ sump SIZE, i.e. add 1 quart you can extend your OCI by app 29% OR 12900 miles. You can also do this with synthetic oil. In other words, it is a mathmatical relationship which is modified somewhat by the real world and YOUR particular operating conditions and style.
So again if a TBN of 7 needs changing at 10,000 miles and given normal wear rates how much longer can a TBN (synthetic oil) of 12 go? Again the UOA's among other things would tell you that if there is ANY doubt.
"As a rule of thumb if you get close to the highway mpg rating on your car, 5,000 mile oil changes are fine, but if you get closer to the city rating, 3,000 mile oil changes are better..."
You aren't actually advocating a 3,000 mile OCI with a fully synthetic oil are you? :confuse:
Regardless of the things that you post, there is lots of scientific evidence to prove that fully Synthetic oils are WAY beyond even the best of the conventional oils when it comes to engine protection, even with very long (15,000 miles or more) OCIs.
My wife drives her car about 2 miles to the train, parks all day, and comes home. That's about it. Total mileage is under 3K per year (car is 3yo Passat 4cyl turbo with only 8600 miles). Is once a year a safe interval for oil changes? How often should the oil be changed? Regular or synthetic?
only synthetics are offered. So it takes care of one thing. I do not remember what manual says but I think it is at least once a year, regardless of mileage.
Synthetic and ONLY synthetic. Conventional oils are not as capable at holding water in suspension and they are not as stable when water is held in suspension, and as such they form acids. However, as krzyss pointed out, most (if not all) 502.00 oils are already synthetic and if you use anything less than a 502.00 certified oil, you will void your warranty.
Then there is the issue of the OCI. Do you get that puppy out on the road at least once a week and give it some exercise? If you do, then your engine will have a chance to get hot enough to boil off the water in the oil, and your yearly Oil Change will be most likely sufficient. However, if you don't, then the amount of water in the oil will continue to increase, eventually overwhelming even the capabilities of your synthetic oil, and as such I'd consider OCIs as short as every three or four months. That is unless you don't care if your car ever sees the far side of 50,000 miles.
Off-topic here... I really really would love to have that new european formulated mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 oil that's only available in europe. That oil makes me drool.
Shipo, you answered your question to me yourself. Yes, I am advocating 5,000 oil changes under freeway conditions and 3,000 under mostly city driving - and then the poster who started this thread rolling describes the exact scenario that concerns us both - a car that will ONLY run on higher performing full synthetic, and driving conditions that DEMAND very frequent (in terms of mileage) oil changes.
I agree with ruking that higher TBN numbers will permit longer oil change intervals, but even so there are other factors. For example, VW requires its particular spec of 5-40 oil, usually full synthetic, and (on the turbo I believe) requires 5,000 mile oil changes (not 10,000, that is for the non-turbos). This is with an oil (the 5-40) that is spec'd to run up to 15,000 miles in a BMW - but then, BMW doesn't have a turbo (yet?) and DOES have an oil life monitor, while VW...well, VW has to allow for the WCD (worst common denominator).
I drive a freeway commute, 80 miles each day, with just a little on/off ramp driving at each end. Despite mostly driving 70 mph, my average speed, per the computer, is only 40-45 mph. So this means my "freeway" driving isn't as freeway oriented as I think.
My wife drives our other car strictly on the streets and usually for less than 2 miles. On the weekend we take it on 10-30 mile drives on the freeway. Her car isn't very demanding (normally aspirated PT Cruiser) and she doesn't have a lead foot; this isn't the desert or the arctic; so I use conventional oil with 3k oil changes (conventional oil because I would wince at the cost of full synthetic on such a short cycle) but with the 3,000 mile intervals due to the nature of our combined driving patterns. I am sure we will contaminate the oil before we wear it out. Since I, too, read BITOG, I "split the difference" by using TropArtic which reportedly has a very good hydrocracked/isomerized base stock with a fair amount of Group III - but is priced less than heavily marketed conventional oils.
At this point the Passat owner's eyes are glazing over. You, me, and ruking aren't likely to get into trouble as we mentally juggle the variables and choose our oils and oci's.
But for the typical owner, I think it is MUCH safer to think of full synthetic oil as providing an extra performance edge, not longer drain intervals. (Even reading manuals these days is confusing. Several years ago Chrysler's normal drain interval was 7,500 with only a few people falling into the 3,000 mile "severe" category. More recently they rewrote the criteria and only a few people now fall into the "normal service" category, and the "normal service" interval has been shortened to 6,000 miles! Ford has completely dropped long oil change intervals, despite using an extremely upgraded synthetic blend oil, and recommends 3k/5k intervals depending on driving habit - but their definition of "severe" and "normal" pushes more people into the "normal" category.)
Now that we know the inquiring poster has a sludge prone Passat turbo, I think we all agree that VW spec oil, changed strictly on the TIME or MILEAGE limits, whichever comes first, is the only way to go. I would also advocate that such changes be done at a VW dealer to fully document the oil changes in case a problem does develop.
Just buy a jug of Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum in the grade for your car (5-30 or 5-20) and carry it in to the dealer when you go in for oil changes. It's only $20 to buy a jug at Walmart, and you'll save a few bucks on the dealer oil change because they will credit you for the oil you are not using from them.
Might depend on what dealer charges for the oil. VW dealer only charged me $3.92 per quart for Castrol Syntec 5W-40. I don't know what Walmart charges for that, but a quart at autozone cost me $5.49.
For the Passat in question, there seems to be no question. If it is never warmed up, it is a sludge factory just a-processing away on each and every trip. Frequent time bound (i.e. every three to four months) oil changes, regardless of whether he's using 502.00, or even the superior 503.01 spec oil seems to be mandated.
"For example, VW requires its particular spec of 5-40 oil, usually full synthetic, and (on the turbo I believe) requires 5,000 mile oil changes (not 10,000, that is for the non-turbos)."
Hmmm, it is my understanding that in the case of the new 2.0T that is used in both the VW and Audi lines that the OCI is in fact every 10,000 miles (after the first 5,000 mile oil change). That means that the recommendation is 5K, 15K, 25K...
"I drive a freeway commute, 80 miles each day, with just a little on/off ramp driving at each end. Despite mostly driving 70 mph, my average speed, per the computer, is only 40-45 mph. So this means my "freeway" driving isn't as freeway oriented as I think."
My bet is that if you had oil analysis run on your oil it would still be very robust after 7,500 miles, and probably more than adequate after 10,000 miles (assuming that you are using a true full synthetic.
FWIW, other than the fact that I drive more like 100 miles per day, my trip computer registers an average speed similar to yours. I am currently nearing 5,000 miles on my current fill of oil (running Mobil 1 0W-40) and have promised (over on the "Slippery Subject" discussion IIRC) to have oil analysis performed on both a virgin sample of that oil (to use as a baseline) as well as the oil in my crankcase at the 7,500 mile mark and post the results. Should be interesting.
Regarding your wife's car; the car that I'm currently using as my daily driver was driven as a train/bus station hack with a twice weekly commute into NYC for it's first 60,000 miles (it now has 113,000 on the clock) and while under warranty I adhered to the Chrysler 7,500 oil change (using Mobil 1 of course). Once the warranty period was up I started pushing the OCIs to more like 10K to 12K, and now, all of these miles later, I still find that I need to add another quart of oil right at the 7,500 mile mark, just as I did when it was new (of course, back then I just did an oil change instead of adding oil).
"But for the typical owner, I think it is MUCH safer to think of full synthetic oil as providing an extra performance edge, not longer drain intervals."
Gotta disagree here...
For the typical owner (and the folks who drive 2 miles to the train station and back every day don't count) I think it is MUCH safer to use a full synthetic oil with OCIs inline with warranty requirements, and then extending their OCIs to say 10,000 miles or so once the warranty is up. This is erring on the side of caution as all of the scientific data that I've seen suggests that the oil should be good for at least twice that.
Stay tuned for my Oil Analysis results, I'm figuring that I'll hit the 7,500 mark (as far as I can go without having to add a quart and skewing the results) by the end of the second week of June so hopefully I'll have the results back by late June.
"I don't know what Walmart charges for that, but a quart at autozone cost me $5.49."
Really? My local Autozone charges $5.49 for Mobil 1 and $5.19 for the German made Castrol 0W-30. True that isn't as inexpensive as buying from your dealer, however, given that I don't trust dealers (my first BMW dealer used conventional oil in my 328i in spite of the Full Synthetic recommendation), I think paying the extra money is cheap insurance.
Nope, the dealership that did it was the northern most BMW dealership on Route 17 in New Jersey. That was a long time ago (late 1999 or early 2000 IIRC), and given the class action law suite over the issue, I'm sure they have long since started using the correct oil in the BMWs that they sell and service.
FWIW, the folks in Nashua gave me exemplary service (all two times that I needed to use them, once to have the OBC reflashed with updated code from Germany and then again for the 15K oil service). ;-)
Shipo, the guy in Nashua came across as very sleazy. They had purportedly official CPO cars on the official BMW web site that they hadn't even taken in trade yet. I made an appointment to see one, drove an hour and the car didn't even exist. I turned around and I went back down one exit to the Porsche dealer and have never regretted buying a new Cayenne.
What makes this post NOT off topic is that all Porsches come with Mobil 1. We all know that everyone says not to use synthetic during the break-in period because it is too slippery and nothing will get "broken in". How does Porsche and others who ship new cars with synthetic reconcile this?
Hmmm, interesting. The folks in Nashua that I turned my 530i into at lease end were VERY professional and a joy to work with. FWIW, they had my 530i CPOed and up on the BMW web site two days later and they sold it two weeks after that. Not too shabby.
As for the OWT (Old Wive's Tale) about synthetic oil being too slippery to break an engine in on, well, I think it's just that, an OWT. The only potential issue that I can think of is the fact that Full Synthetics have far more detergent in them than conventional oil and as such, I've heard reports that they keep the rings too clean, thus prolonging the seating process. I'm not sure I buy that one either.
I follow a number of aviation related forums as well as this one, and over there one will encounter a cyclic debate about breaking in piston airplane engines. You may or may not know that the engines flying around in small airplanes today are absolute 100% state of the art WWII engine technology. With that in mind, there is one camp that claims that the ONLY way to break in a new engine is to use a straight weight, non-Detergent oil (say SAE 50, oddly enough called 100 Weight, go figure) for about 25 hours and then switch to a detergent oil. Their claim is backed up by literally decades of "experience". Said another way, "My grand-pappy told me this was how it was supposed to be done and I've been doin' it this way fer forty years and ain't never had a problem yet."
The other group claims that engines can be broken in with any oil that is aviation certified (they don't use full synthetics for aviation because for some odd reason Synthetic oils are singularly incapable of holding TEL (Lead) in suspension). That means Semi-Synthetic High Detergent, Straight Weight Detergent or Straight Weight non-Detergent for new engine break-in, and they seem to have the science to back that claim up as well.
Who's in the right? My vote is the folks with the science. So, to your question, my bet is that if there really is an issue, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and even Chevrolet (Corvette), and any other manufacturer that provides a factory fill of synthetic, they have the science to understand how the problem manifests itself and how to design around it.
Still, when all is said and done, my bet is that it really isn't an issue.
I believe there's alot of oils out there in the market right now. As long as we dont stick to "one", we should be okay. And, any oil will do it's job if we keep a reasonable oci in my opinion; whether its dino or syn, any oil will get the job done. The only thing i fear is the rising costs of oil/fuel. That will make me take back all my drool and spit hot fire!! :P
OK, Shipo, you answered one question. Now here is another. The OCI on my Cayenne is 10K! Even for the first change. At more than $200 a change I am grateful, however. Now, this old Block Island guy has had a lot of water pass under his keel so he knows that the engine building manufacturing/machining process leaves a lot of chips in the oil. I wonder how Porsche came up with this OCI? Mobil1 is fine oil but it still gets dirty. This OCI is nuts.
I'm surprised also that Porsche still uses oil filter cartridges rather than spin ons. The only thing I can think of is that a cartridge won't explode off an engine some cold morning when the oil pressure is way up there. Living up there in NH you would know about this.
"Now, this old Block Island guy has had a lot of water pass under his keel so he knows that the engine building manufacturing/machining process leaves a lot of chips in the oil."
Modern machining processes, component preparation and engine assembly easily deal with spare metal scraps and such. In addition, by all accounts most German manufacturers "Bench Run" their new engines for a certain number of hours, change the oil and then install them in the target vehicle. As such I have no problem with the concept of extended OCIs right out of the gate.
"I wonder how Porsche came up with this OCI?"
I assume that Porsche came up with their extended OCI in the same manner that BMW and Mercedes did, with scientific testing. When I was working for MB-USA back in the mid 1990s they were running their initial tests and according to the oil analysis results, the Synthetic oil was still serviceable at the 20,000 mile mark.
"Mobil1 is fine oil but it still gets dirty. This OCI is nuts."
The truth of the matter is that "dirty" oil doesn't really mean anything, I'd much rather have a dirty full synthetic oil in my engine with 10,000 miles on it than a new/clean oil pan full of conventional oil. Said another way, you're correct, a 10,000 mile OCI is nuts, it should be twice that. ;-)
"I'm surprised also that Porsche still uses oil filter cartridges rather than spin ons. The only thing I can think of is that a cartridge won't explode off an engine some cold morning when the oil pressure is way up there. Living up there in NH you would know about this."
I had cartridge filters on both of my BMWs and on my VR6 Passat. Done the VW way they suck! Done the BMW way they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Attention all manufacturers: Give me a BMW style top mounted screw off cap oil filter for every new car I buy. PLEASE!
BTW, what with modern 0W-40 fully synthetic oils, cold start pressure ain't likely to ever be an issue unless the temperatures are well south of negative forty degrees. Brrr. ;-)
Well you have to consider the price of engine replacement and the ramifications for a warranty claim. It might be a price worth paying. Some exotic cars have engine replacement costs of $35,000 to $60,000.
I recommend you ask what the dealer recommends. It is not uncommon for dealers to promote more frequent oil changes than the extende drain intervals the manufacturers recommend. Sometimes dealers are reluctant to recommend extra oil changes (at 5,000 miles, for example) on models that include free maintenance since the customer has to pay for the extra oil change and then complains that either the manufacturer is shortchanging the customer on the actual service that should be provided free, or the customer complains that the dealer is trying to charge for extra services.
In terms of the cost, it costs $50, now, for a full synthetic oil change at Walmart with a regular car/truck; $85 at my old VW dealer for Golfs, Jettas, Passats, and Tuaregs (maybe more for Tuareg if the sump holds more oil), and $200 for your Porsche. Chalk it up to different overheads, setting aside the difference that may be attributable to a larger sump on the Cayenne. Chalk it up to different costs of paying for a mistake, from a stripped oil pan to a toasted engine due to oil loss or overfill.
Shippo, are you recommending 0W-40 full synthetic as THE weight to get? How about say a 20W-50 for summer in New England and the 0W-40 after Columbus Day?
My wife's XC70 Volvo (turbo in line five cylinder) after a long summer run when I park it will sit with the engine off but the electric fan blowing hot air out of the very tight engine compartment for as long as five minutes. This happened last Sunday night in cool rain and 50 degree temps following the five hour run down from Montreal. Wouldn't a 20W-50 in summer be better? Less chance to coke up the turbo? (On a different Edmunds.com forum VolvoMax claims that Volvo turbos are not normally replacement items).
Before I forget it, the big thing in outboard engines in the last five or so years is the four cycle outboard engine. The powerheads on the old two cycles would last for maybe 500 hours if you were lucky. Bad gas was the usual suspect. A friend of mine on Block Island has a four stroke Honda (when they first came out, people would call them a "Civic on a stick") on his lobster skiff. He runs Mobil1 and now has 2700 hours on this engine. At 79 he hauls every day but says that this engine will be the last he will ever have to buy.
The price difference can be attributed to not only different overheads, different sump capacities, and increased exposure to significant loss from an error but also some difficult skid plates to remove and reinstall and a free Porsche loaner. Yes, it is a lot of money. But it is done right and not by a high school drop out listening to Limpbisket on his MP3, with the right oil, and I don't have to wait for it.
Some guys are happy with suits from a mall department store, some guys want to buy at a men's specialty store. Some guys meet women on line, other guys want to meet them at a little more select venue. What did Yogi Berra say, "Youse pay your moneys and take your choices"?
The only car that I'm aware of that needs a thicker oil than the 0W-40 Mobil 1 (or German made 0W-30 Castrol Syntech) is the BMW M3, and it requires some exotic formulation that works out to something like 20W-60 (don't quote me on that number, my memory is very fuzzy on this one).
For your blown Volvo I honestly don't see any benefit to moving to something heavier than your basic 0W-30 or 40. Why? Well, for a couple of reasons:
1) It is my understanding that to run an oil with a hot flow rating of 50 without burning out the bottom end, the engine needs to be specifically designed for the heavier oil (i.e. slightly greater clearance). 2) While I'm aware of the 15W-50 Mobil 1 Extended Performance (which actually seems to be a less capable oil than the 0W-40), the only 20W-50 that I'm aware of is from Amsoil and the only standards that it seems to meet are rather old (as in pre-2000). 3) What would be the benefit? The 0W-whatever will flow better in a cold start situation than a 15W or 20W-whatever, even if the ambient temperature is 100 degrees or higher. 4) The two above referenced 0W oils are certified for extended OCIs in some fairly exotic hardware, hardware that is capable of putting MUCH more stress on the oil than your Volvo. 5) I've read that both Castrol and Mobil use their very best base stocks for their top end 0W-whatever oils. True? Can't say, but that's what I've read.
"Less chance to coke up the turbo?"
I suppose that depends upon the oil and it's base stock. Once again, both the Castrol and Mobil 1 oils meet the VW 503.01 specification, and they are the only two that I'm aware of that are sold here in the U.S. that do (Amsoil claims to meet 503.01, however, they have not been certified to that standard). The 503.01 spec was specifically designed for their very high output turbocharged engines (like the new S3 motor which puts out over 300 HP from just 2.0 liters).
So, with all of that said, what would I use in my XC70 (assuming that I had one)? Mobil 1 0W-40 or Syntech 0W-30, and I'd use them regardless of the ambient OAT.
Like you, I'm skeptical of Amsoil (mainly I guess because of the pyramid marketing scheme).
What are your thoughts though of the guys, probably nut cases, who add dual oil filers, etc. to their engine?
As with using full synthetics and a frequent OCI I suspect that the only beneficiary of all this obsesssing about oil will be the pimply faced high school boy who is the last owner before the car is scrapped and sent to Japan to be made into Honda fenders. He may get 5K more miles out of it before the floor pan rots away.
I have just about 2,000 miles left to go before I get to the 7,500 mile mark on the current fill of oil (currently Mobil 1 0W-40). I figure that I'll be ready to change the oil by June at the very latest and then I'll have both a virgin sample of the oil as well as a used sample sent off to Blackstone.
Yeah, the whole Amsoil thing bugs the hell out of me; hence, even if it was the best oil in the world, I probably wouldn't buy it.
Dual filters? IMHO, that is an absolutely stupid waste of money, unless of course you do lots of off-road driving through the Sahara or some other extremely dusty environment.
I hear you on the extra 5,000 mile thing. Even with the extended OCIs that I'm doing on our current cars, I suspect that the engines will last FAR longer than the rest of the vehicle. Our oldest, a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan, still uses a quart of oil every 7,500 miles, just like when it was first broken in, and the body is still in pretty good shape, especially considering that it is eight years old and has > 113,000 miles on it, all driven in the NYC and Boston areas.
Does anyone have any experience running silicone oil in an internal combustion engine?
The thermal stability of a polysiloxane (silicone oil) is much greater than a polyalphaolefin or polyester (synthetic lubricants) and has a favorable viscosity index. Is it just a matter of price or are there known failure mechanisms for silicones in engines? I'm hoping someone has done this so I won't have to sacrifice a Chevy Aveo or some other cheap new car to answer this.
I've got to ask, "Why?" As it is any engine run with conventional oil and short oil changes or Synthetic oil with extended changes will significantly outlast the rest of the car. I keep wondering why some folks keep looking for the BBD (Bigger Better Deal) when the simple answer is right under their nose.
So, john500, why do you feel compelled to spend lots of money on an unproven mousetrap when all you have to do is use the proven products already on the market?
Yeah I am puzzled on this one also. All one has to do for longer intervals with conventional OR synthetic is to increase the (calculated) sump size by whatever % and that will yield the desired effect.
So for example on my Honda Civic oem recommendation of 10,000 miles OCI with a TBN of 7 and a sump size of 3.4 qts, if I add 1 qt for a total of 4.4 qts that increases the oci 29% or 2,900 miles for a total of 12,900 miles. Also synthetic oil has a tbn of 12 so 5 TBN more. So if 10,000/7= 1429 miles per TBN x 12= 17,142 miles. Add a qt to 4.4 qts x29%=22,120 miles.
Shipo, when you compare the temperature handling ability of a straight weight oil, say a SAE30, it is superior to a 10W-30 multi when warm. Wouldn't one be better off in the summer with a 10W-40 rather than a 0W-40 because the 10W-40 will handle turnpike driving in July a lot better and cold starts aren't going to be a problem?
Your 1998 minivan with 113K on the clock is just getting broken in. While I don't know the engine, conventional cast iron American V8s are good for at least 150K. HOWEVER, some V6s crammed into minivans have a short life due to overheating causing cracked heads, expecially if the driver doesn't watch the temp gauge in summer.
"Shipo, when you compare the temperature handling ability of a straight weight oil, say a SAE30, it is superior to a 10W-30 multi when warm.
When comparing a conventional 10W-30 to a conventional SAE 30 that is true, however, if you compare a 0W-30 full Synthetic to the SAE 30 the SAE 30 loses. FWIW, as far as I can tell, there ain’t no such a thing as an SAE 30 that is fully synthetic.
"Wouldn't one be better off in the summer with a 10W-40 rather than a 0W-40 because the 10W-40 will handle turnpike driving in July a lot better and cold starts aren't going to be a problem?"
"All else being equal" I think that in the Synthetic oil world there would be virtually no difference in how a 0W-40 would perform on a hot July day versus a 10W-40. That said, "all else isn't equal", given the greater stability required for the 0W-40 (i.e. a narrower range of viscosity between cold flow and hot flow), a superior base stock is required to make this oil, and as such, it is actually the better oil when operating at high temperatures.
The above having been said, don't take my word for it, ask BMW and VW. The fact is that the 0W-40 Mobil 1 and German made Castrol Syntec 0W-30 meet the most stringent specifications from both car manufacturers, the 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-40 and 10W-40 oils produced by those oil companies do not meet ANY of the latest oil specifications of the two car companies.
"Your 1998 minivan with 113K on the clock is just getting broken in."
Kind of funny...
Back in 2000, when I first posted here on Edmunds that I was going to take the 1998 off of its diet of conventional oil and move it to Mobil 1 with extended OCIs, a number of rather verbal members of the 3K club (swear by 3,000 mile oil changes, regardless of oil) told me that my engine would never see 50,000 miles.
In 2003, when the extended OCI topic came around again I posted that not only had my engine made it to 50,000 miles but that its oil consumption hadn't changed, members of the 3K Club told me that it was only a matter of time before the ill effects of my abusive treatment of my engine would start showing up. Yes, I'd probably be able to milk it to 75,000 miles, however, 100,000 was out of the question.
Well, now I have over 113,000 on the clock and its oil consumption still hasn't changed. If what the 3K Club prognosticated had turned out to be true, my engine would have had to have been overhauled not once but twice by now. Then you come along and tease me that my engine is barely broken in, even with all of my supposed abuse. ;-)
FWIW, I happen to agree with you, my engine is just broken in and will probably be able to happily operate long after the rest of the van has turned into a pile of rust. That having been said, it is a good vehicle to use as an example simply because IF extended OCIs with a fully synthetic oil were a problem, then most likely that engine would have started showing signs of accelerated wear and tear long before now.
My ideal would be to see the engine oil in MY CAR as a one-time deal similar to say gear oil. There are a few pitfalls to this approach. Most gears are closed systems. Engines are open systems and will always shoot some small amount of water or acidic combustion gases into the oil compartment of the engine. I see three potential issues with a silicone fluid. One, full degradation might generate SiO2 (sand, an abrasive agent). Two, the acidic combustion gases may "depolymerize" the silicone fluid (and alter the viscosity). Third, foaming in the prescence of water may be an issue. Therefore, some additives may still be necessary or it might simply not work. Additionally, the cost of a silicon oil will be much higher so it will likely not be competitive with hydrocarbons for commodity usage.
I don't want to reinvent the "wheel" on oil and I have no commercial aspirations. I don't care what other people do. I'm tired of changing my oil every few thousand miles. I simply want to know if anyone has tried using silicone in an engine. If so, I would like to see a report detailing how long it lasts and what happened. If you have ever empirically observed oils as a heat transfer medium, silicone fluids will last > 5 years in an oxidizing environment at temperatures much greater than what an engine will experience, not discolor significantly and not change viscosity after the 5 years. A hydrocarbon oil typically won't even last a year even if it is highly aromatic (for example a biphenyl-based material such as Therminol, something an engine can't use because the pour point will be too high).
That is why I want to test this unproven mousetrap.
Comments
A killer question!! Most folks don't make this connection. If you go with the oem recommendation (in my case a Honda Civic for 10,000 miles (5w20 conventional oil TBN 7) and do treadline UOA's, you get a read on:
1. how "conservative" or on the edge the oem recommendations are in real time and world.
2. YOU as a driver
3. the condtions you find yourself operating under.
So in the case of my Honda Civic 5w20 conventional oil with a TBN of 7, does Mobil One EP with a TBN of 12 last longer than with a TBN of 7? And how much? Also does ones particular engine have any specific wear issues.
I have ordered a test kit and will do an UOA this drain.
Trying to decide whether or not to use synthetic in new 06 Maxima and on what intervals. If someone is willing to explain in plain english, would be much appreciated.
Krzys
As a rule of thumb if you get close to the highway mpg rating on your car, 5,000 mile oil changes are fine, but if you get closer to the city rating, 3,000 mile oil changes are better (since city driving and other low mpg factors link pretty closely to how beat up your oil is getting). My quick take on full synthetic is that it is a well engineered oil which protects your car better, not longer. BOTH regular and full synthetic oils tend to shear down in viscoscity grades at similar rates, and both tend to have similar additive packs (from major makers). The recent upgrade to SM specification for oils essentially narrowed a lot of former differences between regular and full synthetics.
(Some people will tell you that you can go a lot of miles on full synthetic without a problem, but there is also evidence you can go the same distance on regular motor oil from a major producer, which leads me to conclude that sump size vs. engine displacement and driving conditions are the real determining factor. In any case, read your manual's recommendations and follow that - before you follow the dealer's advice. Dealers tend to oversell oil changes and tuneups.)
So again if a TBN of 7 needs changing at 10,000 miles and given normal wear rates how much longer can a TBN (synthetic oil) of 12 go? Again the UOA's among other things would tell you that if there is ANY doubt.
I am not sure why but this above link sends me to bobstheoilguy. Sorry for the hassle.
"As a rule of thumb if you get close to the highway mpg rating on your car, 5,000 mile oil changes are fine, but if you get closer to the city rating, 3,000 mile oil changes are better..."
You aren't actually advocating a 3,000 mile OCI with a fully synthetic oil are you? :confuse:
Regardless of the things that you post, there is lots of scientific evidence to prove that fully Synthetic oils are WAY beyond even the best of the conventional oils when it comes to engine protection, even with very long (15,000 miles or more) OCIs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I do not remember what manual says but I think it is at least once a year, regardless of mileage.
Krzys
Then there is the issue of the OCI. Do you get that puppy out on the road at least once a week and give it some exercise? If you do, then your engine will have a chance to get hot enough to boil off the water in the oil, and your yearly Oil Change will be most likely sufficient. However, if you don't, then the amount of water in the oil will continue to increase, eventually overwhelming even the capabilities of your synthetic oil, and as such I'd consider OCIs as short as every three or four months. That is unless you don't care if your car ever sees the far side of 50,000 miles.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I really really would love to have that new european formulated mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 oil that's only available in europe. That oil makes me drool.
Note: From US Website
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_ESP_Formula_M_5W-40- .asp
Note: From UK Website
http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.a- sp
I agree with ruking that higher TBN numbers will permit longer oil change intervals, but even so there are other factors. For example, VW requires its particular spec of 5-40 oil, usually full synthetic, and (on the turbo I believe) requires 5,000 mile oil changes (not 10,000, that is for the non-turbos). This is with an oil (the 5-40) that is spec'd to run up to 15,000 miles in a BMW - but then, BMW doesn't have a turbo (yet?) and DOES have an oil life monitor, while VW...well, VW has to allow for the WCD (worst common denominator).
I drive a freeway commute, 80 miles each day, with just a little on/off ramp driving at each end. Despite mostly driving 70 mph, my average speed, per the computer, is only 40-45 mph. So this means my "freeway" driving isn't as freeway oriented as I think.
My wife drives our other car strictly on the streets and usually for less than 2 miles. On the weekend we take it on 10-30 mile drives on the freeway. Her car isn't very demanding (normally aspirated PT Cruiser) and she doesn't have a lead foot; this isn't the desert or the arctic; so I use conventional oil with 3k oil changes (conventional oil because I would wince at the cost of full synthetic on such a short cycle) but with the 3,000 mile intervals due to the nature of our combined driving patterns. I am sure we will contaminate the oil before we wear it out. Since I, too, read BITOG, I "split the difference" by using TropArtic which reportedly has a very good hydrocracked/isomerized base stock with a fair amount of Group III - but is priced less than heavily marketed conventional oils.
At this point the Passat owner's eyes are glazing over. You, me, and ruking aren't likely to get into trouble as we mentally juggle the variables and choose our oils and oci's.
But for the typical owner, I think it is MUCH safer to think of full synthetic oil as providing an extra performance edge, not longer drain intervals. (Even reading manuals these days is confusing. Several years ago Chrysler's normal drain interval was 7,500 with only a few people falling into the 3,000 mile "severe" category. More recently they rewrote the criteria and only a few people now fall into the "normal service" category, and the "normal service" interval has been shortened to 6,000 miles! Ford has completely dropped long oil change intervals, despite using an extremely upgraded synthetic blend oil, and recommends 3k/5k intervals depending on driving habit - but their definition of "severe" and "normal" pushes more people into the "normal" category.)
Now that we know the inquiring poster has a sludge prone Passat turbo, I think we all agree that VW spec oil, changed strictly on the TIME or MILEAGE limits, whichever comes first, is the only way to go. I would also advocate that such changes be done at a VW dealer to fully document the oil changes in case a problem does develop.
Might depend on what dealer charges for the oil. VW dealer only charged me $3.92 per quart for Castrol Syntec 5W-40. I don't know what Walmart charges for that, but a quart at autozone cost me $5.49.
For the Passat in question, there seems to be no question. If it is never warmed up, it is a sludge factory just a-processing away on each and every trip. Frequent time bound (i.e. every three to four months) oil changes, regardless of whether he's using 502.00, or even the superior 503.01 spec oil seems to be mandated.
"For example, VW requires its particular spec of 5-40 oil, usually full synthetic, and (on the turbo I believe) requires 5,000 mile oil changes (not 10,000, that is for the non-turbos)."
Hmmm, it is my understanding that in the case of the new 2.0T that is used in both the VW and Audi lines that the OCI is in fact every 10,000 miles (after the first 5,000 mile oil change). That means that the recommendation is 5K, 15K, 25K...
"I drive a freeway commute, 80 miles each day, with just a little on/off ramp driving at each end. Despite mostly driving 70 mph, my average speed, per the computer, is only 40-45 mph. So this means my "freeway" driving isn't as freeway oriented as I think."
My bet is that if you had oil analysis run on your oil it would still be very robust after 7,500 miles, and probably more than adequate after 10,000 miles (assuming that you are using a true full synthetic.
FWIW, other than the fact that I drive more like 100 miles per day, my trip computer registers an average speed similar to yours. I am currently nearing 5,000 miles on my current fill of oil (running Mobil 1 0W-40) and have promised (over on the "Slippery Subject" discussion IIRC) to have oil analysis performed on both a virgin sample of that oil (to use as a baseline) as well as the oil in my crankcase at the 7,500 mile mark and post the results. Should be interesting.
Regarding your wife's car; the car that I'm currently using as my daily driver was driven as a train/bus station hack with a twice weekly commute into NYC for it's first 60,000 miles (it now has 113,000 on the clock) and while under warranty I adhered to the Chrysler 7,500 oil change (using Mobil 1 of course). Once the warranty period was up I started pushing the OCIs to more like 10K to 12K, and now, all of these miles later, I still find that I need to add another quart of oil right at the 7,500 mile mark, just as I did when it was new (of course, back then I just did an oil change instead of adding oil).
"But for the typical owner, I think it is MUCH safer to think of full synthetic oil as providing an extra performance edge, not longer drain intervals."
Gotta disagree here...
For the typical owner (and the folks who drive 2 miles to the train station and back every day don't count) I think it is MUCH safer to use a full synthetic oil with OCIs inline with warranty requirements, and then extending their OCIs to say 10,000 miles or so once the warranty is up. This is erring on the side of caution as all of the scientific data that I've seen suggests that the oil should be good for at least twice that.
Stay tuned for my Oil Analysis results, I'm figuring that I'll hit the 7,500 mark (as far as I can go without having to add a quart and skewing the results) by the end of the second week of June so hopefully I'll have the results back by late June.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Really? My local Autozone charges $5.49 for Mobil 1 and $5.19 for the German made Castrol 0W-30. True that isn't as inexpensive as buying from your dealer, however, given that I don't trust dealers (my first BMW dealer used conventional oil in my 328i in spite of the Full Synthetic recommendation), I think paying the extra money is cheap insurance.
Best Regards,
Shipo
FWIW, the folks in Nashua gave me exemplary service (all two times that I needed to use them, once to have the OBC reflashed with updated code from Germany and then again for the 15K oil service). ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
What makes this post NOT off topic is that all Porsches come with Mobil 1. We all know that everyone says not to use synthetic during the break-in period because it is too slippery and nothing will get "broken in". How does Porsche and others who ship new cars with synthetic reconcile this?
As for the OWT (Old Wive's Tale) about synthetic oil being too slippery to break an engine in on, well, I think it's just that, an OWT. The only potential issue that I can think of is the fact that Full Synthetics have far more detergent in them than conventional oil and as such, I've heard reports that they keep the rings too clean, thus prolonging the seating process. I'm not sure I buy that one either.
I follow a number of aviation related forums as well as this one, and over there one will encounter a cyclic debate about breaking in piston airplane engines. You may or may not know that the engines flying around in small airplanes today are absolute 100% state of the art WWII engine technology. With that in mind, there is one camp that claims that the ONLY way to break in a new engine is to use a straight weight, non-Detergent oil (say SAE 50, oddly enough called 100 Weight, go figure) for about 25 hours and then switch to a detergent oil. Their claim is backed up by literally decades of "experience". Said another way, "My grand-pappy told me this was how it was supposed to be done and I've been doin' it this way fer forty years and ain't never had a problem yet."
The other group claims that engines can be broken in with any oil that is aviation certified (they don't use full synthetics for aviation because for some odd reason Synthetic oils are singularly incapable of holding TEL (Lead) in suspension). That means Semi-Synthetic High Detergent, Straight Weight Detergent or Straight Weight non-Detergent for new engine break-in, and they seem to have the science to back that claim up as well.
Who's in the right? My vote is the folks with the science. So, to your question, my bet is that if there really is an issue, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and even Chevrolet (Corvette), and any other manufacturer that provides a factory fill of synthetic, they have the science to understand how the problem manifests itself and how to design around it.
Still, when all is said and done, my bet is that it really isn't an issue.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Time to take a good look in the mirror when you are drooling over motor oil availability......
I'm surprised also that Porsche still uses oil filter cartridges rather than spin ons. The only thing I can think of is that a cartridge won't explode off an engine some cold morning when the oil pressure is way up there. Living up there in NH you would know about this.
Modern machining processes, component preparation and engine assembly easily deal with spare metal scraps and such. In addition, by all accounts most German manufacturers "Bench Run" their new engines for a certain number of hours, change the oil and then install them in the target vehicle. As such I have no problem with the concept of extended OCIs right out of the gate.
"I wonder how Porsche came up with this OCI?"
I assume that Porsche came up with their extended OCI in the same manner that BMW and Mercedes did, with scientific testing. When I was working for MB-USA back in the mid 1990s they were running their initial tests and according to the oil analysis results, the Synthetic oil was still serviceable at the 20,000 mile mark.
"Mobil1 is fine oil but it still gets dirty. This OCI is nuts."
The truth of the matter is that "dirty" oil doesn't really mean anything, I'd much rather have a dirty full synthetic oil in my engine with 10,000 miles on it than a new/clean oil pan full of conventional oil. Said another way, you're correct, a 10,000 mile OCI is nuts, it should be twice that. ;-)
"I'm surprised also that Porsche still uses oil filter cartridges rather than spin ons. The only thing I can think of is that a cartridge won't explode off an engine some cold morning when the oil pressure is way up there. Living up there in NH you would know about this."
I had cartridge filters on both of my BMWs and on my VR6 Passat. Done the VW way they suck! Done the BMW way they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Attention all manufacturers: Give me a BMW style top mounted screw off cap oil filter for every new car I buy. PLEASE!
BTW, what with modern 0W-40 fully synthetic oils, cold start pressure ain't likely to ever be an issue unless the temperatures are well south of negative forty degrees. Brrr. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Then they change the oil.
Krzys
In terms of the cost, it costs $50, now, for a full synthetic oil change at Walmart with a regular car/truck; $85 at my old VW dealer for Golfs, Jettas, Passats, and Tuaregs (maybe more for Tuareg if the sump holds more oil), and $200 for your Porsche. Chalk it up to different overheads, setting aside the difference that may be attributable to a larger sump on the Cayenne. Chalk it up to different costs of paying for a mistake, from a stripped oil pan to a toasted engine due to oil loss or overfill.
My wife's XC70 Volvo (turbo in line five cylinder) after a long summer run when I park it will sit with the engine off but the electric fan blowing hot air out of the very tight engine compartment for as long as five minutes. This happened last Sunday night in cool rain and 50 degree temps following the five hour run down from Montreal. Wouldn't a 20W-50 in summer be better? Less chance to coke up the turbo? (On a different Edmunds.com forum VolvoMax claims that Volvo turbos are not normally replacement items).
Before I forget it, the big thing in outboard engines in the last five or so years is the four cycle outboard engine. The powerheads on the old two cycles would last for maybe 500 hours if you were lucky. Bad gas was the usual suspect. A friend of mine on Block Island has a four stroke Honda (when they first came out, people would call them a "Civic on a stick") on his lobster skiff. He runs Mobil1 and now has 2700 hours on this engine. At 79 he hauls every day but says that this engine will be the last he will ever have to buy.
Some guys are happy with suits from a mall department store, some guys want to buy at a men's specialty store. Some guys meet women on line, other guys want to meet them at a little more select venue. What did Yogi Berra say, "Youse pay your moneys and take your choices"?
The only car that I'm aware of that needs a thicker oil than the 0W-40 Mobil 1 (or German made 0W-30 Castrol Syntech) is the BMW M3, and it requires some exotic formulation that works out to something like 20W-60 (don't quote me on that number, my memory is very fuzzy on this one).
For your blown Volvo I honestly don't see any benefit to moving to something heavier than your basic 0W-30 or 40. Why? Well, for a couple of reasons:
1) It is my understanding that to run an oil with a hot flow rating of 50 without burning out the bottom end, the engine needs to be specifically designed for the heavier oil (i.e. slightly greater clearance).
2) While I'm aware of the 15W-50 Mobil 1 Extended Performance (which actually seems to be a less capable oil than the 0W-40), the only 20W-50 that I'm aware of is from Amsoil and the only standards that it seems to meet are rather old (as in pre-2000).
3) What would be the benefit? The 0W-whatever will flow better in a cold start situation than a 15W or 20W-whatever, even if the ambient temperature is 100 degrees or higher.
4) The two above referenced 0W oils are certified for extended OCIs in some fairly exotic hardware, hardware that is capable of putting MUCH more stress on the oil than your Volvo.
5) I've read that both Castrol and Mobil use their very best base stocks for their top end 0W-whatever oils. True? Can't say, but that's what I've read.
"Less chance to coke up the turbo?"
I suppose that depends upon the oil and it's base stock. Once again, both the Castrol and Mobil 1 oils meet the VW 503.01 specification, and they are the only two that I'm aware of that are sold here in the U.S. that do (Amsoil claims to meet 503.01, however, they have not been certified to that standard). The 503.01 spec was specifically designed for their very high output turbocharged engines (like the new S3 motor which puts out over 300 HP from just 2.0 liters).
So, with all of that said, what would I use in my XC70 (assuming that I had one)? Mobil 1 0W-40 or Syntech 0W-30, and I'd use them regardless of the ambient OAT.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Thanks in advance.
Like you, I'm skeptical of Amsoil (mainly I guess because of the pyramid marketing scheme).
What are your thoughts though of the guys, probably nut cases, who add dual oil filers, etc. to their engine?
As with using full synthetics and a frequent OCI I suspect that the only beneficiary of all this obsesssing about oil will be the pimply faced high school boy who is the last owner before the car is scrapped and sent to Japan to be made into Honda fenders. He may get 5K more miles out of it before the floor pan rots away.
I'll keep y'all posted. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Dual filters? IMHO, that is an absolutely stupid waste of money, unless of course you do lots of off-road driving through the Sahara or some other extremely dusty environment.
I hear you on the extra 5,000 mile thing. Even with the extended OCIs that I'm doing on our current cars, I suspect that the engines will last FAR longer than the rest of the vehicle. Our oldest, a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan, still uses a quart of oil every 7,500 miles, just like when it was first broken in, and the body is still in pretty good shape, especially considering that it is eight years old and has > 113,000 miles on it, all driven in the NYC and Boston areas.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The thermal stability of a polysiloxane (silicone oil) is much greater than a polyalphaolefin or polyester (synthetic lubricants) and has a favorable viscosity index. Is it just a matter of price or are there known failure mechanisms for silicones in engines? I'm hoping someone has done this so I won't have to sacrifice a Chevy Aveo or some other cheap new car to answer this.
So, john500, why do you feel compelled to spend lots of money on an unproven mousetrap when all you have to do is use the proven products already on the market?
Best Regards,
Shipo
So for example on my Honda Civic oem recommendation of 10,000 miles OCI with a TBN of 7 and a sump size of 3.4 qts, if I add 1 qt for a total of 4.4 qts that increases the oci 29% or 2,900 miles for a total of 12,900 miles. Also synthetic oil has a tbn of 12 so 5 TBN more. So if 10,000/7= 1429 miles per TBN x 12= 17,142 miles. Add a qt to 4.4 qts x29%=22,120 miles.
Your 1998 minivan with 113K on the clock is just getting broken in. While I don't know the engine, conventional cast iron American V8s are good for at least 150K. HOWEVER, some V6s crammed into minivans have a short life due to overheating causing cracked heads, expecially if the driver doesn't watch the temp gauge in summer.
When comparing a conventional 10W-30 to a conventional SAE 30 that is true, however, if you compare a 0W-30 full Synthetic to the SAE 30 the SAE 30 loses. FWIW, as far as I can tell, there ain’t no such a thing as an SAE 30 that is fully synthetic.
"Wouldn't one be better off in the summer with a 10W-40 rather than a 0W-40 because the 10W-40 will handle turnpike driving in July a lot better and cold starts aren't going to be a problem?"
"All else being equal" I think that in the Synthetic oil world there would be virtually no difference in how a 0W-40 would perform on a hot July day versus a 10W-40. That said, "all else isn't equal", given the greater stability required for the 0W-40 (i.e. a narrower range of viscosity between cold flow and hot flow), a superior base stock is required to make this oil, and as such, it is actually the better oil when operating at high temperatures.
The above having been said, don't take my word for it, ask BMW and VW. The fact is that the 0W-40 Mobil 1 and German made Castrol Syntec 0W-30 meet the most stringent specifications from both car manufacturers, the 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-40 and 10W-40 oils produced by those oil companies do not meet ANY of the latest oil specifications of the two car companies.
"Your 1998 minivan with 113K on the clock is just getting broken in."
Kind of funny...
Back in 2000, when I first posted here on Edmunds that I was going to take the 1998 off of its diet of conventional oil and move it to Mobil 1 with extended OCIs, a number of rather verbal members of the 3K club (swear by 3,000 mile oil changes, regardless of oil) told me that my engine would never see 50,000 miles.
In 2003, when the extended OCI topic came around again I posted that not only had my engine made it to 50,000 miles but that its oil consumption hadn't changed, members of the 3K Club told me that it was only a matter of time before the ill effects of my abusive treatment of my engine would start showing up. Yes, I'd probably be able to milk it to 75,000 miles, however, 100,000 was out of the question.
Well, now I have over 113,000 on the clock and its oil consumption still hasn't changed. If what the 3K Club prognosticated had turned out to be true, my engine would have had to have been overhauled not once but twice by now. Then you come along and tease me that my engine is barely broken in, even with all of my supposed abuse. ;-)
FWIW, I happen to agree with you, my engine is just broken in and will probably be able to happily operate long after the rest of the van has turned into a pile of rust. That having been said, it is a good vehicle to use as an example simply because IF extended OCIs with a fully synthetic oil were a problem, then most likely that engine would have started showing signs of accelerated wear and tear long before now.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I don't want to reinvent the "wheel" on oil and I have no commercial aspirations. I don't care what other people do. I'm tired of changing my oil every few thousand miles. I simply want to know if anyone has tried using silicone in an engine. If so, I would like to see a report detailing how long it lasts and what happened. If you have ever empirically observed oils as a heat transfer medium, silicone fluids will last > 5 years in an oxidizing environment at temperatures much greater than what an engine will experience, not discolor significantly and not change viscosity after the 5 years. A hydrocarbon oil typically won't even last a year even if it is highly aromatic (for example a biphenyl-based material such as Therminol, something an engine can't use because the pour point will be too high).
That is why I want to test this unproven mousetrap.