Synthetic motor oil

ruking1 · January 2001

Not in any car I own!?

The manufacturer's are catching on to longer interval oil changes, especially when the warranty work is on THEIR nickel. When it is on yours, of course change oil after each time you drive!!???

Corvette up to 15k

MB320 15k

nikecar · January 2001

We just bought a Mazda protege and their SHORTEST interval is still 5K. Going to switch to Mobil1 at 1,000 miles and then keep the 5K interval.

My 99 Altima's schedule is 3750. Going to switch to synth too at 30K, at the next change...

tc93 · January 2001

Surely there are synthetic oil comparison reports out "there" somewhere prepared by some independent entities? After all, the various oil manufacturers are quick to site self-serving "test results by an independent lab" in their ads and promotions. I'd sure like to see one of those test reports to get some presumably unbiased information.

Too bad the 1997 Consumer Reports test was so disappointing, and apparently clawed!

agt_cooper · January 2001

You hit the nail on the head!!! Until an unbiased entity performs scientific experiments on various scenarios (i.e., dino oil @ manufacturers intervals, dino oil @ extended intervals, synth. oil @ manuf. intervals, synth @ extended intervals), all this stuff in this topic is pure opinion based on who-knows-what!

Which is why I get outraged when I hear someone here "recommend" that you "only change your oil every 15,000 miles, just use synthetic".

If you make that recommendation, are you going to pay for damage to my engine? I think not!

vadp · January 2001

For $10 you can get an oil report here:
http://www.engineoilinfo.com/voxtop.htm

The comprehensive one will cost you very big bucks.

Also check out this link:
http://www.noria.com/boards/lab.cfm

agt cooper,
are you really all that outraged? LOL

yurakm · January 2001

Amsoil recommends changing its premium oil at 35,000 miles or one year, with filter changed more often: either according the manufacturer schedule, or 12,500 miles / six month for Amsoil filter.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/tso.html

They also kind of stay behind the recommendations:

http://www.amsoil.com/warranty.htm

Tjough, personally, I would prefer to have such recommendations and warranty from a big company, like Mobil.

oilcan2 · January 2001

I am an amsoil user of 20 years,I think one of
the reasons that we don't see the results and or
test done by the major companies is that amsoil
and mobil 1 beats all the others.you could do your
own study,take a oil sample before changing to
synthetic,take one of the new syn for a base
comparison,change to the syn and take oil samples
every 5k miles.the reports will tell you what is
in the oil and how the oil is holding up.I have
used the amsoil in gas and diesel engines and
have done this and gone 25000 miles on 1 oil
change,the only thing I do different from most
syn users is I use the amsoil air filter and I
use a 2nd by-pass oil filter which filters to a
finer degree than the stock filters and lets the
engine hold from 1 to 2 quarts more oil,this
really helps on engines that only hold 4 quarts.

vadp · January 2001

oilcan2,

I wonder what your Amsoil oil looks like after 5, 10, 15, 20 thousand miles of use. I mean the color, smell etc judging by its appearance on the dipstick. The reason I'm asking is that it looks quite dark already (mobil 1) just after 4000 highway miles in one of my cars.

armtdm · January 2001

To answer your question, Amsoil will warranty the engine if the failure is due to the oil. I have not gone 25,000 miles but I have gone 15,000 several times and the oil analysis comes back similar to the analysis when the oil was changed at 7,500 miles. Catastrophic engine failure is almost never due to failure to change the oil. Long term wear may be where the poor oil gradually wears out the parts (I have not experiecned this with Amsoil as yet, especially since the oil analysis indicates all is well ) but a catastophgic failure, probably an engine defect or driver caused error. Everyone is concerned over what the manufacturer will do for warranty repairs. First, always a hassle for engine warranty items, second, although most people will not believe this, the manufacturer must prove that the failure was due to the oil, the argument that not changing the oil as recommended caused the failure does not hold up in court!!!!!!,

steve234 · January 2001

It would never reach court. When you purchase a vehicle, you are given a warranty based on the requirement that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Failure by the purchaser to comply with the conditions of the warranty is cause for revoking the warranty. You may do many things to a vehicle, but neglecting required maintenance is not allowed. If the problem is obviously not oil related, then a good dealership will give the buyer the benefit of the doubt. If the problem lies anywhere in the lubrication cycle, no dealer will touch it. I have no doubts that over the next decade or so, the oil change intervals may be incresed, but until then, it is not worth the $25-50 I would be saving.

agt_cooper · January 2001

I am outraged!!!!

LOL

armtdm · January 2001

You said recommendation, not requirement. Oil change intervals are recommnedfations not requirements!!! You are incorrect in your statements but not worth arguing about. This forum is for other topics

justin · January 2001

I just bought a 2001 Honda Civic EX. I am at 1200 miles. The dealer says that they do not want to see the car until 6500 for an oil change due to additives in factory oil. That's fine, but my question is this. If at 6500 I start using Mobil One, what happens if something bad happens? Honda can't say it is my fault, by blaming it on synthetic oil, can they?

Also - what if I take my car every 5k to a quickie oil change place, and one time they make a mistake and don't use Mobil One, and use regular oil? Does switching like that do damage?

I want to make sure I take good care of the engine, since, being a Honda, I have to keep it revved to go anywhere

Thanks

armtdm · January 2001

No, they cannot claim that not using dino oil or them not having changed it is a reason to deny a warranty. You can switch back and forth with synthetics, no problem.

ruking1 · January 2001

This is an interesting dilemma. I have heard too many stories from too many people who has used a quickie lube that have had some problem with the service. The quickie lubes have ALWAYS come to some kind of resolution. But hey, if they don't screw on the oil filter correctly,filter or oil drain plug is not tight, and you leak all the way home and see a puddle the next day, who is responsible for the engine work? Was the engine damaged? etc. etc.

adc100 · January 2001

Keep using your dino oil Synthetic is not for everyone. vadp : if you have a sound engine and drive enough higher milage trips 15-20 miles, syn stays cleaner than conventional oil because it does not oxidize (similiar to burning). When you switch from conventional to syn it cleans up tyhe system and will be darker for the first couple of changes sooner. My 94 (Corsica program car) after 70,000 miles will normally get changed at 10,000 mile intervals. I use the unscientific method of: when it goes darker than dark honey (almost black) it's time to go. It uses between 1 and 2 ounces per 1000 miles. armtdm and oilcan2 know what they are talking about. email me cooper and I'll tell you where to find the "proof."

tinindiana · January 2001

I went to a local auto store to buy some syn at and they did not have it and did not know anyone who did. Is this hard to find or not necessary? I just assumed that it would be readily available. Any help is appreciated!

bblaha · January 2001

What auto store did you try? The local Autozone near where I live carries Mobil1 Synthetic ATF.

yurakm · January 2001

The same with my local Pep Boys.

vadp · January 2001

Or you can try to order it on-line.
RedLine sells its line of the synth ATF's for $7.00 a bottle plus shipping.

http://www.myoilshop.com/AutoPrds.html

dgsg · January 2001

Be careful using synthetic ATF in newer vehicles! Acura says to only use Honda ATF and that if some other brand has to be added in an emergency to drain & refill with Honda ATF ASAP! I called Mobil 1 about this because it sounded like BS. The Mobil tech said yes that Mobil recommends the use of Honda ATF only. He said that all the automakers are going to specialized additives in their ATF and that as a rule they would recommend sticking to the manufactures recommendation.

bluebeast · January 2001

Ok, most of us probably drive their car around, pull into the garage, let the motor cool down a little, then change the oil and filter, right? Just applying some common sense here, why would it not be better to change oil after the car has sat, umm, let's say 3 hours or more (assuming the day you are changing the oil is 50 degrees or warmer)?? The oil & contaminants will be in either the oil pan or the oil filter more so than just after warming the oil and distributing it throughout the engine. So logic then would suggest that changing the oil when "cold" (again, at least a 60 degree day or more) would be the best course of action. Rebuttals? Articles out there?

lspangler · January 2001

The reason for changing the oil when warm is so that the dirt and contaminants not in the filter are in suspension in the oil and when the oil is drained out, the dirt goes with it. If it has set for a few hours, the dirt can settle into the nooks and crannies and then when you drain the oil, the dirt is still there. While most of the oil does drain into the pan after sitting, alot of oil stays in oil lines and on top of head.

When changing the oil in your car, your manual calls for an oil that meets or exceeds a certain spec. It'll say must meet or exceed SG or SJ. each letter further into the alphabet is a newer tougher spec. A manufacturer could not void your warranty based on oil used as long as it meets the required spec. So when going to a synthetic, your drain intervals are increased because the oil is less likely to break down from heat. Your filter is removing the contaminants and that is why Amsoil recommends a 12,000 mile filter change interval. Synthetic is very durable when it comes to heat. I have a friend who is a distributor for amsoil and he has a big block Suburban with 90,000 miles on 1 oil change. He changed filters every 10 and sends out oil samples. The oil still has not broke down or degraded from when it was new. He tows very large boats and construction equipment almost daily. That's proff enough for me.

My biggest reason for changing to amsoil would be that I lease my vehicle and if I change the oil every 25,000 miles, I only have to change it once before turning it in and I have no fear of any oil related maladies.

Enjoy

vadp · January 2001

"A manufacturer could not void your warranty based on oil used as long as it meets the required spec." AND changed according to the manufacturer recommended intervals.
I would like to hear about the real life experiences with the dealerships and manufacturers.
Thanks.

ruking1 · January 2001

#673

I consider what you have said to be sound reasoning for using Synthetic oil. While it solves a host of concerns and situations, a lot of folks are still dealing with "old oil propaganda".

#674

Like I have said in prior posts, Corvette has up to 15k recommended oil changes.

MB 320 service providers ADAMATELY will not change oil before the recommended interval of 15k. They even go so far as to say, if you want it changed before that interval, you must pay for it!!!

My TLC (Toyota Landcruiser) service provider (dealer) has told me that if I had an engine "malady" with 15k Mobil One oil changes he would honor the warranty. Obviously, if I ran the thing without oil that would not be covered!!!???)

You have to remember that people will sue over (ANYTHING) ie, spilled coffee in the lap and win, even though logically, even grandmother's know that hot liquids can burn you.

More to a real life example that may not have been mentioned, is the concept of excess oil consumption. Each manufacturer has its definition of that. So, say it is 1qt in 1000-1500. Say you walk around "suit happy" and structural with you nose in the air, i.e. don't check your oil. Hey, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that for lack of checking your dipstick, you will be 15 qts low at the required interval. But before you are 15 qts low you would have experienced meltdown or catastrophic failure of a perfectly good engine. Now the fun begins!???

nikecar · January 2001

also, some of us don't have the luxury of waiting 3 hrs. I go to my mom's house, let it cool for 30-60min, then do it, but I'll let it sit there and drain for more than 30 minutes at times..

bluebeast · January 2001

lspangler, Your reasoning is flawed, the contaminants (dirt & such) will always be left in nooks and crannies whether or not the oil has just been warmed or not. I think you would increase your chances of getting all the contaminants out by letting all the oil drain to the pan (3hrs or so) and then change the oil.

Best comprimise is what I do and nikecar stated in #676, which is to wait 30-60 min and then let it drain COMPLETELY ( might be 10-30 mins).

Question, how many of you have magnitized your drain plug and/or placed a magnet by you drain plug?

sgrd0q · January 2001

I wanted to change to Mobil 1 but my dealer does not carry it. Instead they recommended Castrol Synthetic (I think). Are the two brands similar? Also, I've noticed that Mobil 1 comes in a few different denominations? Which one do I use for a passenger car? Thanks!

nikecar · January 2001

you can buy M! and take it to the dealer. I believe Castrol's isn't fully synth per se as is M! and Amsol and the others.. Look in your owners manual and see. its either 5w-30 or 10w-30 depending on the temperature that you drive the car in (cold weather, hot weather).

And about letting the oil drain out. After its drained out, I also blow down the oil cap hole. Doesn't do much really, but I can hear some oil come out the drain. the more out, the merrier!

I think the quikest change I've done was 30 minutes total, because it was cold outside. Normally i spend a nice hour taking my time. no quickie lube place could match the TLC the cars deserve.

adc100 · January 2001

the hotter the better for drainage,as was mentioned hot oil holds suspended solids better and also flows easier therefore tending not to puddel in parts of the pan. Best solution is to drain hot and merely let it drain for a good long time (1/2) hour. You can then also flush with clean oil or kerosene. If using kerosene, make sure it's all drained out. You are right nikecar, no Jiffylubes for me- my car is to important. I carefully clean the oil filter housing and even inside the housing, check the inside of filter for anything, fill the filter (if possible), lube gasket surface and torque the pan plug. In general, I make sure no dirt enters the engine. No 7 dollar/hr. man is screwing with my pride and joy. To each his own.

Later

lspangler · January 2001

I find it interersting that you think my thinking is flawed. Here is something you can try that will simulate what I meant. Take a small tupperware container with a lid that seals. Add 1 glass of water and about a half cup of sugar. Put the lid on and shake it like crazy, set it on the counter and watch. The sugar is held in suspension for a small amount of time, and then begins to settle out. This is similar to what happens with the oil. If this were your engine and all the stuff in the oil could settle into the pan, I guess that would be Ok except your pan rarely drains completely and your engine is far from being a smooth container.

Basically, the longer the engine has set, the slower the oil will drain because of cooling, and some of the contaminants might be settling out of the oil.

Regardless, I think we all can agree that changing the oil, regardless of temp, is better than not changing it

bluebeast · January 2001

I agree that hot oil has contaminants suspended in the oil and once the engine is shut off all of these suspended contaminants will make their way to the oil filter and/or oil pan. The longer you let it sit, the more contaminants will be in the oil filter / oil pan. So the only real question is whether or not someone has ever conducted a test to see if there is an optimal time after turning off the vehicle to change the oil, right? Which would tell you the most optimal time to be able to get out the most amount of oil and the most amount of contaminants. I'm just questioning the logic of draining hot/warm oil right after turning the motor off just because our great grandpappy did it that way. Being a gearhead for 24 years and I've never read of this question being addressed / tested. Good thing someone questioned the earth being flat, which was believed for how long?

ruking1 · January 2001

Hey guys, if it is a burning desire to drain the most contaminants, it is not many more screws and a gasket to drop your oil pan.

(which to me is a good reason to use synthetic. A whole lot less oil product generated gunk is present with synthetic)

ezaircon4jc · January 2001

For your sugar analogy to work the water has to be hot to start. Then the sugar would disolve. Same thing with salt. In either case, the suger/salt would solidify at the bottom as the water cools.

ccotenj · January 2001

well, virtually every recommendation i've ever seen says to warm it and then drain it before it cools... solids drain MUCH easier when suspended in liquid than they do sitting in a non-suspended state... regardless of how warm the solid is... as far as the previous poster, it really depends on how much sugar/salt you put in the water... hot or not hot, it doesn't matter... until the solution reaches a point where it's "full", in which case the solids will eventually drop out (dang it, i cannot think of the correct word for that, i want to say precipitate)) when it cools... but the sugar example really doesn't hold if the sugar actually dissolves... solids in your engine don't dissolve in your oil, they get suspended.. dissolves is implying that the structure of the solid changes and it's state changes to liquid, then turns back to solid as it drops out... suspension implies that the solid remains in the solid state, but is carried by the liquid... if you perform the sugar experiment, you will find that the amount of sugar that settles out won't equal the amount of sugar you put in... i'd be willing to bet that isn't true of engine gunk...

-Chris

ccotenj · January 2001

the amount of sugar/salt that dissolves in the liquid will be affected by the temperature of the liquid (i.e. potentially more will dissolve in the hot water than cold)... but it will still dissolve, regardless of initial temperature...

-Chris

darpin1 · January 2001

Interesting article on what a true synthetic motor oil and the semantics...Talk abut confusion..Don't even try to read and understand the label on each brand...The point of the article seems to make is that alot of brands are derived from petroleum base and synthetically produced...Where as Mobil one is totally made from scratch...Confusing? Apparently the other brands are riding the popularity of synthetics to cash in on it.
"Corvettes, Porches, Vipers, and all AMG models from Mercedes-Benz come with Mobil 1 as the factory fill...

Just a note on changing oil I sometimes change the oil the next morning after it has sat for about 10 hrs. Drain and take the oil filter off...Wait awhile then take a new cheap oil like 10w30 pour that in quickly then let that drain out in the hope that it will carry some of the garbage out before I put synthetic in. Of course you don't have wait so long and it may work better with the engine warm to get the contaminants out.

yurakm · January 2001

The article is available on Internet:

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2000/November/200011_columns_bedard.xml

adc100 · January 2001

Thanks for the article. Cashing in on the Mobile 1 success for sure. darpin1 still can't figure out why as long as its sitting and draining why one wouldn't remove the drain plug also. I do agree with you about the flush with oil though.

lspangler · January 2001

Sorry, My sugar example only meant to show that over time, solids will settle out of a liquid. I was just trying to show that if a running engine gets the dirt into suspension in the oil, more dirt will come out, and engine that's set, will get more oil out but possibly leave some dirt behind that has settled out of the oil. I guess I should have said to add sugar until the mixture was saturated, then any more you add would be held in suspension and would fall out when the agitation stopped.

Regardless, I think you guys know what I meant

ccotenj · January 2001

yup. you and i are on the same page and in agreement. was just trying to clarify so that no one would turn it around and try to use the argument against you...

you are dead right. solids in suspension will drain. solids that aren't, won't.

-Chris

bblaha · January 2001

Bluebeast, since anything that will settle into the pan will do so whether the plug is installed or not, you might as well do so with the plug removed. Waiting 3 hours for it to cool before removing it just means some stuff will settle on the pan bottom and NOT get drained when the plug is removed.

bluebeast · January 2001

Got y'all thinking about it, made a nice change from the usual discussion.

silvercoupe · January 2001

I have a book of coupons that came with my 2000 Accord LX Coupe that I can use toward oil changes at my local Honda dealer. Pays $20 every 3,500 miles toward an oil change or other service. With these coupons I only pay around $6 for an oil change with Castrol GTX and Honda filter. I usually can go in at any time for an oil change and be on my way within an hour.

The only synthetic that my dealer offers is Castrol, which is not really a synthetic. Would it be worth it to switch to this oil? I don't think so, but am open to suggestions.

I figure that if I use Mobil 1 and a good filter (OEM or better) each oil change would cost around $30, plus my labor and time. Also would have to dispose of the used oil.

Also, I have a 91 Accord with 150,000 miles that has had a regular diet of Castrol 10w30. Still runs perfect and uses no oil.

So, with my circumstances, can anyone help me justify switching to Mobil 1? I do not want to buy the oil and carry it to the dealer. If I buy the oil, I'd just as soon change it myself.

ruking1 · January 2001

With your coupons, the economics (on a quick and dirty) is about even between synthetic and convention oils. On mine, I bring the oil to the dealer and he charges me app 18. for time and disposal, but I have no coupons.

lkuos · January 2001

Sorry all. I'm sure this question has been answered and debated in the past, but I am just too tired right now to read the past posts. I would just like a few recommendations before I go out and buy a case. Thanks in advance.

adc100 · January 2001

between syn/conventional oil you can look at the small picture vs the big picture. Small picture: conventional saves a few bucks/year. Big picture: syn is an additional isurance policy for the $20,000 investment. Me- I want the best for my car. Also, even if you are conservative, you can go longer between changes.

adc100 · January 2001

Mobile 1 for me. It's the standard-truly 100%synthetic not like some other brands which start with base mineral oils. SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) reports are available (costs money- I can give you info). Tests have been run where after 200,000 miles on two identical cars- changing oil every 15,000 miles; all wear parts in engine came up to specs. for new parts. Thats all I need to know. Amzoil- may be just as good; its hard to prove. If someone cane prove to me something is better than Mobil 1, I'll switch.

ruking1 · January 2001

I would tend to agree with your take! I also agree that Mobil One is the best "mass" synthetic on the market. Actually all things being equal, the weak link is actually the oil filter! On a theory level, there is no real indicator as to how much useable life an oil filter has left, whether you have just put one in or have 25,000 miles. On a practical level, on my I6, TLC, the filter indicates that it is not filtering as well by a slight consumption of oil usually between 1/4--1/2 qt at 14,000 miles.

While i do not necessarily recommend this; some folks have found it safe enough to just change the filter at this interval (14,000-15,000) and top up the lost oil due to consumption and oil filter change, and they are good to go to 25,000 miles. In any case, you can do as prior posts have indicated and do a 10 buck or less oil analysis (sort of like a "urine" sample) send it in and get the REAL 411 on the oil's condition. Most that have done it have indicated much useable life left.

adc100 · January 2001

Your oil consumption to me appears quite small. Data that I have seen indicates that less than 2 oz.(for syn) per 1000 mi. is about par for an engine in a sound, good condition. 1 oz. and less per 1000 mi. is on the low end. Not sure I understand what you are saying about using oil because of the filter??

Later

Synthetic motor oil

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