U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

andres3 · October 2017

fintail said:
What's the EV part of the fleet in southern CA right now? 5% tops? Make it 50% and see what happens with infrastructure, I dare ya. I hope one doesn't mind waiting a few hours to juice up while on a short trip. Watch out for brownouts.

Even my Air Conditioner add-on upgrade caused SDG&E to tell me "Do you mind not turning on your AC for a couple months so that we can upgrade a transformer in your neighborhood.?" This was after the months they already made me wait to get an approved plan and permitted set to do the job in the first place.

Luckily it was Winter, which of course meant it rained before I could do the stucco and roof patches.

suydam · October 2017

AC uses way more juice than charging a car.
But my point is that infrastructure builds as demand grows. First there were 2 charging stations in a parking lot. Now there are often 4, and the number will grow. I'm surprised by the changes I've seen in just the last year. If you drive an EV you will definitely notice. As for charging requirements you can charge at Level 1 or 2 on a normal 40 amp circuit, and its no different than what you need to hook up a clothes dryer.

fintail · October 2017

Up here, I see very few apartment or office garages with more than 2 stations (usually zero in the former), but there are plenty of Teslas and plug in hybrids on the road here. In my building, if you get to work at 7, you'll probably be too late. Tough to get owners to pay for the tech, even with taxpayers in general helping out.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

fintail said:

What's the EV part of the fleet in southern CA right now? 5% tops? Make it 50% and see what happens with infrastructure, I dare ya. I hope one doesn't mind waiting a few hours to juice up while on a short trip. Watch out for brownouts.

To say nothing of the cost of a Kw. Southern California already has some of the highest rates in the country

berri · October 2017

I wonder how those EV charges will hold up when it is 90+ and humid or -15 below zero? Then there is the stop and go in rush hour traffic. Something tells me these hours on a charge estimates will be even more off than EPA mileage estimates on vehicles today.

suydam · October 2017

Cold weather definitely impacts mileage just as with ICE vehicles. Stop and go traffic improves it because of regen braking.

berri · October 2017

Maybe these batteries will be sensational, but cold weather hammers battery output and performance. Hot, humid weather can quickly reduce their life. Also, there is a tendency to think of electronics as clean. The reality is that the electronics business can be quite polluted in manufacture and disposal, as well as sometimes toxic and carcinogenic. It is just that it isn't nearly as apparent to those outside the industry as in industries like petroleum. No smokestacks so to speak.

tlong · October 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
This is a long road to travel and will take decades to come to fruition.

It will depend on government support. And that is just not going to be there. I am not bullish on all-electric cars at all. Enjoy your ICE-engined cars, dudes.

I think Tesla is scaring a lot of the auto makers and they are all rushing into electrics. Perhaps Tesla's solar roofs and batteries can become a big part of the solution, reducing power grid buildout needs. Tesla could easily become more successful due to the Solar side than the auto side.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

tlong said:

This is a long road to travel and will take decades to come to fruition.

It will depend on government support. And that is just not going to be there. I am not bullish on all-electric cars at all. Enjoy your ICE-engined cars, dudes.
I think Tesla is scaring a lot of the auto makers and they are all rushing into electrics. Perhaps Tesla's solar roofs and batteries can become a big part of the solution, reducing power grid buildout needs. Tesla could easily become more successful due to the Solar side than the auto side.

The best you can do with solar roof panels on a car is use them to activate HVAC while parked, ala Maybach. EV range under all conditions still relegates them to 2nd car status and often not on a 24 hour ready capability. And I don't think that will change without a major battery breakthrough.

fintail · October 2017

I imagine Tesla will derive profits from batteries or solar rather than cars, as I don't believe those have yet to run in the black. When the federal and state subsidies received by new Tesla buyers (just who I want to help, someone buying a 100K vehicle) expire, then what?

I'll be on a road trip in a few days, with a few long nonstop legs of the journey. I wouldn't want to have to take an hour break in the middle to refill.

fushigi · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

The best you can do with solar roof panels on a car is use them to activate HVAC while parked, ala Maybach. EV range under all conditions still relegates them to 2nd car status and often not on a 24 hour ready capability. And I don't think that will change without a major battery breakthrough.

I believe tlong is talking about home solar roofs, not auto. Localized electricity generation via solar or wind can reduce, but not eliminate, some of the grid issues.

suydam · October 2017

Over 20,000 plug-ins sold this month.

berri · October 2017

Maybe EV will become dominant, but remember there was a time when Duncan yo-yo's or hula hoops couldn't keep up with demand either

iluvmysephia1 · October 2017

I don't see all-electrics taking even 20% of overall car sales in 2020. Look how fast time's passing. Who knows? Tom Petty may have been planning a new car purchase in the next couple of weeks. Time passed him by.

I used to be a proponent. GM's announcement flew right over my head like a Gary Payton alley-oop ta Shawn Kemp for the dunk off of Dennis Rodman's head.

berri · October 2017

EV is probably going to be like solar panels - they sell because the government (meaning taxpayers) subsidizes it.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

Oh yeah... I get all heated up when I'm reading yet another blog about how a Tesla is so cheap to run. Oh, wait...you're getting a tax credit, free supercharging and all your breakdowns were covered under a 96 month warranty from a company making no money and spending investor cash garnered from overvalued stocks.

So this is the future?

Let's give a Chevy Volt free gas and a 96 month warranty and have a shoot out with a Model 3, shall we?

suydam · October 2017

More Chevy Bolts probably sold this month than Tesla (estimated of course).

berri · October 2017

I suspect GM is losing money on the Volt/Bolt programs, but if China really does go in big time on EV it might give them a leg up. Of course China has probably already stole all the design and proprietary data for it off the Internet!

tlong · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

tlong said:

iluvmysephia1 said:
This is a long road to travel and will take decades to come to fruition.

It will depend on government support. And that is just not going to be there. I am not bullish on all-electric cars at all. Enjoy your ICE-engined cars, dudes.
I think Tesla is scaring a lot of the auto makers and they are all rushing into electrics. Perhaps Tesla's solar roofs and batteries can become a big part of the solution, reducing power grid buildout needs. Tesla could easily become more successful due to the Solar side than the auto side.

The best you can do with solar roof panels on a car is use them to activate HVAC while parked, ala Maybach. EV range under all conditions still relegates them to 2nd car status and often not on a 24 hour ready capability. And I don't think that will change without a major battery breakthrough.

What I meant was that additional electrical generation capability to support cars can be supplemented by many homes with PV roofs. Not that they would be on the cars directly.
The same type of people who buy Teslas are probably affluent and would put PV on their roofs.

tlong · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
Oh yeah... I get all heated up when I'm reading yet another blog about how a Tesla is so cheap to run. Oh, wait...you're getting a tax credit, free supercharging and all your breakdowns were covered under a 96 month warranty from a company making no money and spending investor cash garnered from overvalued stocks.

So this is the future?

Let's give a Chevy Volt free gas and a 96 month warranty and have a shoot out with a Model 3, shall we?

GM got way more free $$ from the government than Tesla has, so the Volt was also heavily subsidized.

fintail · October 2017

GM didn't get money just to build the Volt, and I suspect the tax credits Shifty mentions aren't bailout-related, but the stupendously ridiculous ones given to the already affluent buyers of 100K+ showy toy cars. Trickle down LAWL

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

I don't see that as an equitable comparison since the government was counting on not paying out a huge welfare bill for hundreds of thousands of unemployed auto workers. The Tesla subsidy goes right into Musk's treasury. He and his stock holders are making money on the tax credits and I would not be surprised if Tesla, being cash-rich, isn't buying up its own stock and boosting the price.

andres3 · October 2017

tlong said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Oh yeah... I get all heated up when I'm reading yet another blog about how a Tesla is so cheap to run. Oh, wait...you're getting a tax credit, free supercharging and all your breakdowns were covered under a 96 month warranty from a company making no money and spending investor cash garnered from overvalued stocks.

So this is the future?

Let's give a Chevy Volt free gas and a 96 month warranty and have a shoot out with a Model 3, shall we?
GM got way more free $$ from the government than Tesla has, so the Volt was also heavily subsidized.

Touche!

Sort of like when someone says "I owe you my life, you saved my life!"

andres3 · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't see that as an equitable comparison since the government was counting on not paying out a huge welfare bill for hundreds of thousands of unemployed auto workers. The Tesla subsidy goes right into Musk's treasury. He and his stock holders are making money on the tax credits and I would not be surprised if Tesla, being cash-rich, isn't buying up its own stock and boosting the price.

Now now, I'm sure Musk would argue the subsidies and tax payer benefits Tesla receives do help pay for a percentage of his payroll of employees, that would otherwise be a smaller amount of employed people. He can afford to be "management" and "engineering" rich. R&D takes people.

andres3 · October 2017

fintail said:
GM didn't get money just to build the Volt, and I suspect the tax credits Shifty mentions aren't bailout-related, but the stupendously ridiculous ones given to the already affluent buyers of 100K+ showy toy cars. Trickle down LAWL

It would be interesting to see if someone could do the math and accounting to figure out just what our bailout dollars went towards and paid for.

I don't want any of that "speculation" of saved unemployment expenses, for it is possible Elon would have hired some of them the next day at 50% wages

McDonalds might have hired others. The key point being it is speculation.

What did the money really go towards? Hard known figures.

I can say for one, they went to warranty work, as if the companies had gone under, the warranties would not have been honored, so I'd say taxpayers deserve 100% of the credit for paying for all warranty costs around that time until warranties would have naturally expired.

imidazol97 · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't see that as an equitable comparison since the government was counting on not paying out a huge welfare bill for hundreds of thousands of unemployed auto workers. The Tesla subsidy goes right into Musk's treasury. He and his stock holders are making money on the tax credits and I would not be surprised if Tesla, being cash-rich, isn't buying up its own stock and boosting the price.

But then there's the plant in the US building Tesla's.. with great subsidy from California.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

Tesla is a bit player in the automotive biz. General Motors probably loses more cars in transit than Tesla makes in a year.

Anyway, we can never settle this argument because there's no way we can play out the OTHER scenario, of letting the American automotive industry be towed to the Big Salvage Yard in the Sky.

Besides, the point is moot, isn't it? No way, no how, that ANY political party was going to let that happen, tough guy talk notwithstanding. You think the American public would have stood by and watched the entire infrastructure of the U.S. auto industry be sold off to Asia for pennies on the dollar? I don't think so.

imidazol97 · October 2017

Not sure what the sample's meaning is, but we've had a Tesla charging station of 8 "pumps" in our area for years now. I cannot recall ONE, not ONE time I've gone by and seen a vehicle charging there. It's not an area I frequent every day but maybe once every couple of weeks.

suydam · October 2017

Not a place where people charge Teslas?
I actually saw very few Teslas or any other plug in when I lived in Ohio. Here in California they are plentiful.

fintail · October 2017

I assume debt, underfunded pensions (can't wait til the public sector ones boil over), and warranty issues like you mention.

There's definitely a domino effect among suppliers that could and likely would have happened had the firm failed. The economic damage would have been vastly greater than GM alone. This dead horse has been beaten to atoms, and probably isn't worth rehashing yet again.

Vastly lower wages for people once employed by GM in general puts those people into social welfare programs, also passing that bill on to taxpayers in general, kind of like what many accuse WalMart of re: low pay. Taxpayers funding the top few, kind of like the tax breaks for the Model X and Model S.

andres3 said:

It would be interesting to see if someone could do the math and accounting to figure out just what our bailout dollars went towards and paid for.

I don't want any of that "speculation" of saved unemployment expenses, for it is possible Elon would have hired some of them the next day at 50% wages McDonalds might have hired others. The key point being it is speculation.

What did the money really go towards? Hard known figures.

I can say for one, they went to warranty work, as if the companies had gone under, the warranties would not have been honored, so I'd say taxpayers deserve 100% of the credit for paying for all warranty costs around that time until warranties would have naturally expired.

berri · October 2017

I think that would be a tougher calculation than it appears. You've got to factor gov tax breaks, grants, etc. and present value them to reflect the years they are active. You also have to consider lost fuel tax, as well as any other state/local advantages given to EV drivers. Short term I'd agree that GM got more (gross, before adjusted to saved jobs and related income tax revenues. net not as clear.), but some of those Tesla incentives and tax breaks are longer term I believe. So that answer could easily change. Don't forget they are getting state and local breaks, as well as federal tax breaks and investment/grants.

My bigger concern though is that it is a fine line before gov breaks and grants to advance technology become gov subsidies steering the market direction. The marketplace for consumer goods should be steered by customer demand, otherwise you begin to enter socialistic economics. History shows that model is flawed over time.

suydam · October 2017

Tax breaks for consumers are shorter term. The $7500 credit ends once a certain number of that vehicle have been sold. The Prius hasn't had those tax breaks for years and people are still buying them. California just instituted a yearly EV tax that is levied for road maintenance.

berri · October 2017

Not fuel tax and the like. But I don't have any issues with someone buying an EV. I just think the gov shouldn't subsidize any part of it in an attempt to influence consumer behavior (other than perhaps some initial R&D and feasibility funding). I will speculate though that if EV became our dominant vehicle platform, the petroleum savings would likely be offset by electric grid expenses and higher consumer electric prices, as well as an increase in natural gas pricing. We've pretty much made it near impossible to build more nuclear energy plants and coal pollution isn't attractive.

fintail · October 2017

I have no real issue with a mild incentive, but IMO it should have a MSRP cap. Otherwise, it subsidizes toys, and reeks of the trickle down stuff that has failed in virtually every application in history.

One can get a Prius for 20K, a Model S probably averages 75K+ and Model X 100K. That might explain why Prius sells. Even the Model 3, moderately equipped, will be in the 40s, not cheap, far above average and probably out of reach for the average American.

imidazol97 · October 2017

fintail said:
I have no real issue with a mild incentive, but IMO it should have a MSRP cap. Otherwise, it subsidizes toys, and reeks of the trickle down stuff that has failed in virtually every application in history.

One can get a Prius for 20K, a Model S probably averages 75K+ and Model X 100K. That might explain why Prius sells. Even the Model 3, moderately equipped, will be in the 40s, not cheap, far above average and probably out of reach for the average American.

For the prius, there's the self-righteous attitude that many purchasers have that by buying the prius in past years they were saving the biosphere--from something or other. Many don't understand that making the car, batteries, electric motors, and electronics, along with charging the thing from power plants usually distant in someone else's backyyard may actually be more environment damaging that buying an efficient ICE vehicle.

Much of that attitude came from a MSM which also has no clue. I always have been amused to see the school librarian type who buys a prius to drive 2 miles from home to work and feels they are saving the earth. Of course, the huge taxpayer incentive was much of the motivation for purchase.

I'd really like to read a true analysis of the environmental impact of the priuses.

fintail · October 2017

Just watch the South Park "Smug Alert" episode from about 10 years ago. The west coast is probably the epicenter of this, I know it all too well. From what I can tell, Tesla has captured more than a few upmarket Prius fans - the dorky personalized plates on so many of them say all one needs to know.

The questions about externalities are often avoid too, you are right. You don't want to live near a rare earths mine. But the greenie way is to export pollution to someone elses backyard.

Not sure about MSM complaints though, who defines what is mainstream, and bad compared to what media sources, exactly? I never get an answer to that

imidazol97 said:

For the prius, there's the self-righteous attitude that many purchasers have that by buying the prius in past years they were saving the biosphere--from something or other. Many don't understand that making the car, batteries, electric motors, and electronics, along with charging the thing from power plants usually distant in someone else's backyyard may actually be more environment damaging that buying an efficient ICE vehicle.

Much of that attitude came from a MSM which also has no clue. I always have been amused to see the school librarian type who buys a prius to drive 2 miles from home to work and feels they are saving the earth. Of course, the huge taxpayer incentive was much of the motivation for purchase.

I'd really like to read a true analysis of the environmental impact of the priuses.

andres3 · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
Tesla is a bit player in the automotive biz. General Motors probably loses more cars in transit than Tesla makes in a year.

Anyway, we can never settle this argument because there's no way we can play out the OTHER scenario, of letting the American automotive industry be towed to the Big Salvage Yard in the Sky.

Besides, the point is moot, isn't it? No way, no how, that ANY political party was going to let that happen, tough guy talk notwithstanding. You think the American public would have stood by and watched the entire infrastructure of the U.S. auto industry be sold off to Asia for pennies on the dollar? I don't think so.

Tata Corvettes? Geely Encores, Veranos, and Regals? Nissan Silverados? I find it a bit amusing to think of the possibilities.

A lot of people were in bad situations during that recession, I don't think a majority of Americans were for the bailouts (I know at least some Polls - we know how reliable those are - agreed with this). The bailouts were more of a Coup d'état, than the will of the people. Do you think unemployed construction workers wanted auto workers to get special treatment? How about unemployed mortgage writers/underwriters/brokers/agents? Not that I have much sympathy for them.

Remember, the original bailout vote was not passed. It took more fear-mongering to get the spineless politicians to cave in.

andres3 · October 2017

imidazol97 said:
Not sure what the sample's meaning is, but we've had a Tesla charging station of 8 "pumps" in our area for years now. I cannot recall ONE, not ONE time I've gone by and seen a vehicle charging there. It's not an area I frequent every day but maybe once every couple of weeks.

Sounds like the extra "bike lanes" that took the place of car lanes in LA neighborhoods. The people have revolted by starting recall campaigns for those responsible in City Council and the Zero Vision (oops, I mean Vision Zero) implementations are having to be reversed (wasting further tax payer dollars).

From what I've read and heard, the bike lanes get very little use and traffic. Certainly not enough to justify them.

andres3 · October 2017

fintail said:
I assume debt, underfunded pensions (can't wait til the public sector ones boil over), and warranty issues like you mention.

There's definitely a domino effect among suppliers that could and likely would have happened had the firm failed. The economic damage would have been vastly greater than GM alone. This dead horse has been beaten to atoms, and probably isn't worth rehashing yet again.

Vastly lower wages for people once employed by GM in general puts those people into social welfare programs, also passing that bill on to taxpayers in general, kind of like what many accuse WalMart of re: low pay. Taxpayers funding the top few, kind of like the tax breaks for the Model X and Model S.

andres3 said:

It would be interesting to see if someone could do the math and accounting to figure out just what our bailout dollars went towards and paid for.

I don't want any of that "speculation" of saved unemployment expenses, for it is possible Elon would have hired some of them the next day at 50% wages McDonalds might have hired others. The key point being it is speculation.

What did the money really go towards? Hard known figures.

I can say for one, they went to warranty work, as if the companies had gone under, the warranties would not have been honored, so I'd say taxpayers deserve 100% of the credit for paying for all warranty costs around that time until warranties would have naturally expired.

Certainly I can agree some suppliers and indirectly related companies to GM would have suffered or been destroyed (mostly for being overly reliant on GM's existence, which is a form of bad management; putting all your eggs in one basket). I think I would have been more agreeable to bailout secondary and tertiary companies for pennies on the bailout dollar to lessen the collateral damage of GM & Chrysler dying.

Oh well, as you say, it is all History now, but who is writing the History books, and will they mention that the gamble lost around 16 Billion (on GM alone) through the sale of stocks at a loss (not including opportunity costs). I cringe every time I see the media "fake news" say things like "Every dollar was paid back," just because Obama said it.

andres3 · October 2017

suydam said:
Tax breaks for consumers are shorter term. The $7500 credit ends once a certain number of that vehicle have been sold. The Prius hasn't had those tax breaks for years and people are still buying them. California just instituted a yearly EV tax that is levied for road maintenance.

How much is the EV tax? My guess is it is a pittance compared to fuel taxes?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

berri said:
I think that would be a tougher calculation than it appears. You've got to factor gov tax breaks, grants, etc. and present value them to reflect the years they are active. You also have to consider lost fuel tax, as well as any other state/local advantages given to EV drivers. Short term I'd agree that GM got more (gross, before adjusted to saved jobs and related income tax revenues. net not as clear.), but some of those Tesla incentives and tax breaks are longer term I believe. So that answer could easily change. Don't forget they are getting state and local breaks, as well as federal tax breaks and investment/grants.

My bigger concern though is that it is a fine line before gov breaks and grants to advance technology become gov subsidies steering the market direction. The marketplace for consumer goods should be steered by customer demand, otherwise you begin to enter socialistic economics. History shows that model is flawed over time.

The U.S. economy is not free-market, and subsidies, perks, tax breaks, grants, relaxation of certain regulations, is, and has been, the de facto economic system in America. Free-market is an illusion. If it was real, you wouldn't like it I suspect.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:
Not sure what the sample's meaning is, but we've had a Tesla charging station of 8 "pumps" in our area for years now. I cannot recall ONE, not ONE time I've gone by and seen a vehicle charging there. It's not an area I frequent every day but maybe once every couple of weeks.
Sounds like the extra "bike lanes" that took the place of car lanes in LA neighborhoods. The people have revolted by starting recall campaigns for those responsible in City Council and the Zero Vision (oops, I mean Vision Zero) implementations are having to be reversed (wasting further tax payer dollars).

From what I've read and heard, the bike lanes get very little use and traffic. Certainly not enough to justify them.

That's often because they do the first part, the funding and building, but not the second part, the marketing and promotion of the bike lanes. Some cities do a great job of making them work, others...not so much.

tlong · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
Tesla is a bit player in the automotive biz. General Motors probably loses more cars in transit than Tesla makes in a year.

Anyway, we can never settle this argument because there's no way we can play out the OTHER scenario, of letting the American automotive industry be towed to the Big Salvage Yard in the Sky.

Besides, the point is moot, isn't it? No way, no how, that ANY political party was going to let that happen, tough guy talk notwithstanding. You think the American public would have stood by and watched the entire infrastructure of the U.S. auto industry be sold off to Asia for pennies on the dollar? I don't think so.

Well you can look at Tesla as a bit player, and in one context you are correct. But in another you are definitely wrong. Tesla has jump started electrics in a way no other maker has. In that sense Tesla is a huge market leader and mover - even if by volume they are a bit player.

The competitors of SpaceX laughed at their inexperience and arrogance. But today they have changed EVERYTHING in the launch business. Elon is very smart and I wouldn't minimize what he may accomplish.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

He is very smart but he's also very good at promising the impossible. If he scores 50%, then he's still credible.

Tesla *IS* Elon, and that's the problem. Look at Apple without Jobs. The iPhone X is kind of a joke, next to its hype.

tlong · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
He is very smart but he's also very good at promising the impossible. If he scores 50%, then he's still credible.

Tesla *IS* Elon, and that's the problem. Look at Apple without Jobs. The iPhone X is kind of a joke, next to its hype.

Elon's promises have generally panned out but his time frames are wildly optimistic.
Agree on Apple, I'm a shareholder but not a buyer of their products, lol. I do get a nice dividend from their stock.

berri · October 2017

Totally agree that the US, or any other economy really, is not pure capitalism and those who espouse Adam Smith probably don't fully understand it. But I still have a problem with what I believe is over generous gov benefits to Musk and Tesla, and that gov subsidies should not drive major consumer decisions, nor provide favorable advantages to a specific competitor over others. It is all probably academic though, because I think the cost to convert service stations or develop separate service facilities is going to be a major bump to large scale EV adaptation, as well as the time required in those charging stations to refill (so to speak). And will the petroleum companies even allow their service station customers to implement EV charging on a large scale while it is competing with gasoline fueled vehicles? Seems at least over the near term future that EV will be more as a second vehicle for commuting.

berri · October 2017

Musk has accomplished some major initiatives, no doubt. Space X is an interesting case because what is not known is whether its capture of commercial satellite business will have impacts on DOD or NASA, and whether those impacts will help or hurt them? I can see two sides to that matter personally.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2017

I feel pretty certain that NO ONE is going into outer space (outside normal Earth orbits) except the U.S. government, as there is no incentive for private investment to do so.

At present, Tesla automotive is kind of a Ponzi scheme, at least until it posts a profit. The early investors are being paid by the late investors.

The Chevy Bolt is basically just as good as the Model 3 in capabilities, and it's available now. You don't have to lend Musk your money and wait for years to get one.

But alas, it has a bow tie on the grille, not a "T". Oh, the horror!

berri · October 2017

I still wonder about Amazon and its stock price v. what it would bring if it was sold. I also wonder if it brings about the demise of store shopping (and personally I doubt it) will it also reduce consumer spending on retail? There are still many who want to see before they buy and soft goods bring in more retail dollars than hard goods.
As for cars, I don't see dealers going away. Protection by state laws, trade-ins, service needs all counter that theory right now.

andres3 · October 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:
Not sure what the sample's meaning is, but we've had a Tesla charging station of 8 "pumps" in our area for years now. I cannot recall ONE, not ONE time I've gone by and seen a vehicle charging there. It's not an area I frequent every day but maybe once every couple of weeks.
Sounds like the extra "bike lanes" that took the place of car lanes in LA neighborhoods. The people have revolted by starting recall campaigns for those responsible in City Council and the Zero Vision (oops, I mean Vision Zero) implementations are having to be reversed (wasting further tax payer dollars).

From what I've read and heard, the bike lanes get very little use and traffic. Certainly not enough to justify them.
That's often because they do the first part, the funding and building, but not the second part, the marketing and promotion of the bike lanes. Some cities do a great job of making them work, others...not so much.

My problem is they should not add bike lanes by taking away already congested car lanes. Add bike lanes all you want, but pay for them separately without harming the infrastructure.

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