woohoo! I'm back from lurking! Been travelling a LOT for work and for vacation and keeping busy.
Does anybody have a tow hitch on their Outback? Is it low-profile, up close to the bumper? I'd hate to reduce the 18 degree 'departure angle' significantly (angle between the ground and a big plywood board wedged behind the back wheels and tilted up until it hits the bumper...or muffler...or tow hitch).
I'm way late on this, but I'd have to say my polished marble floor garage would have a modern set of cars, since I'm a gotta-have-the-latest-gadget-geek. >McLaren F1 (wow, an exotic supercar in which I can take TWO of my friends along) >Ferrari Modena (absolutely beautiful...maybe I'd park it in my livingroom and call it art) >Scarab race boat (dual 2000 hp V12 version) >custom 4-door Accord sleeperized (350 hp supercharged V6 driving the front wheels, and two 100 hp electric motors driving the back wheels powered by a capacitor bank or those new TMF batteries that can dump their 500 amp charge in about 1 second, full stock exterior...umm except maybe soft tires) >And, the car I'd *actually* get if I won the lottery: Acura NSX for its perfect *balance* of manners, handling, power, looks, and cost.
Hmm, in response to Paisan, who wrote <<The subaru as I see it is basically the poor man's audi, no offense>> That's one way to put it, but more accurately, the Audis go after a different target crowd by creating a different image. We're practical people, so my wife and I were *disgusted* with the consistently snobby Audi salespeople and the snooty, high-class image they tried to create of Audis. The product brochures are almost corny, and have "MARKETING" written all over them. Don't get me wrong: The A4 Avant 1.8t Quattro we tried is a fine vehicle, but for the money it was far from perfect. The premium stereo was boomy (though not so in the sedan), power was marginal (I know, $400 to chip it helps), automatic was underpowered, tiptronic was silly (if I forgot to up or down shift, it did it for me anyways...what's the point?). Again, 'for the money' we expected better. Plus, I think you are comparing different cars. In our case, the Audi A4 was just not what were looking for --it has less usable cargo space (deep & narrow), low ground clearance (even for snow), and a not-very-open feeling. When we go to replace our sedan (an aging Diamante), we'd consider the A4 sedan as a possibility. It is a very nice around town car, but doesn't cut it for the off-the-beaten path trips that we like to take.
Paisan, you do have good taste. The S4 is a beautiful road machine. However, if I *had* a whopping $38k to burn, then I think I'd be able to get a loaded Subaru with H6, VDC, AWD, and a supercharger to boot. Then I'd have a go-anywhere , practical-looking wagon that was rip-snortin' fast, and filled with those gadgets that I love.
Dave - I've seen a tow hitch on the Impreza, at the i Club meet (I knew I'd pick up some useful knowledge).
It was pretty flush, but still affects the departure angle somewhat. My suggestion is to find one that has it, and then measure to see how much it'll affect you on your wonderful off-road forays.
Marble is porous so it's a no-no.
It's also slippery when wet. Oh, that's right, not a problem with Soobs!
I have two funny Audi stories. First was at the auto show, where one of those snobby salesmen actually lectured me for about 15 minutes about the benefits of AWD. To ME of all people. Too bad I didn't even fit in that TT.
The 2nd in courtesy of my next door neighbor, Ralph. When it snowed he asked me to pick up some milk for him, so I did. I assumed his A6 was the FWD model.
Later I found out is was a Quattro, but he didn't have the ground clearance to drive in the 10-12 inches of snow on our street.
I got a real kick out of that. My Forester was so capable I had to try *hard* to make it sweat.
I wonder if the A6 could have made it in the 10-12 inches of snow. My minivan only has about 6 inches of ground clearance, and yet I've driven it in about 10 inches of snow without problem. Of course, I heard some scratching noises underneath (mostly from the ice, I imagine). The trick is to keep moving and not to stop. But like your neighbour, I don't know if I'd risk driving my E320 4-matic in that kind of weather though, even with winter tires :-).
If I remember correctly, the 323i ad indicates cago volume for the wagon at just under 48 cubic feet. The Outback shows 68.6 with rear seat down. Once again, your comments are right on the mark. The Bimmer IS much smaller. By the way, my wife says she wouldn't be caught dead in a yuppie mobile! Thanks for making comparisons meaningful.
Did you know the 5-series wagon is classified as a compact, while the Ford Focus wagon is classified as a mid-size?
Can you imagine a family "upgrading" to a Focus after owning a 540i wagon? I believe they'd also be upgrading, in size at least, if they chose a Legacy.
Bimmers are sporty, but very small. I believe it was Drew that pointed out their in-line engines (mounted longitudinally for better weight distribution) sacrifice a lot of interior room.
Note that all Subaru engines have been mouted longitudinally, but they're shorter because of the boxer layout.
Lars- I installed the bug deflector on my '00 OB for about 6 weeks ago and haven't had any problems. I have no idea whether it's actually helped deflect stuff over or not, but I don't have any chips or nicks on my windshield and haven't received any new ones on my hood. (I got the deflector because I got a nice chip the first month and was quite shaken). It did vibrate once at about 85 mph with a very strong crosswind. I noticed I had one attachment off a little bit and haven't had any vibration since. (Even took the car over 100 mph to test-FUN). There was a post a while back about someone who took it off when he washed and noticed wear happening through the wear pads (provided). I don't take it off to wash, just slip my rag between deflector and hood. I really like the look of it and I haven't seen any new chips.
I looked up MSRP for Legacy.. L- Sedan 5 spd 19,200 Outback 5 spd 22,700 I can't believe that Subaru is going to all H6 engines... 43% of Legacy's are sold in "L" or Brighton's and if Subaru's go to 30,000 they will be priced out of a good portion of their market. Toyota and Honda have both 4 cyl and 6 cyl in their competing models.. (I also can't be the only one that thinks there is enough power in the H4 as it is). Juice has been (rightly) defending Subaru's power in these posts. I think it is a smart move to offer an H6 option, however I just don't see Subaru going that far upmarket.
Subaru is a smaller manufacturer, so it is harder for them to produce a greater variety of engines (or any other parts). Easy enough for Toyota and Honda, who sell tens of thousands of engines a month, to amortize the cost of maintaining two separate designs ... harder for Subaru. Still, given their rapid gain in sales in the US, it might be time for them to do that. Who knows ... certainly not me. :-)
Anybody else here tried the "Car-O-Scope" on the cartalk.com Web site? I just ran through it for the first time as a Forester owner and discovered, according to its admittedly-less-than-scientific demographics, that a Forester "is just about perfect for you. ... When compared to other people who own a Subaru Forester, you're just about the same in terms of your age, how much you really care about your car, and your tolerance for taking risks." But it also indicated that I am: -- "just too educated to be driving a Subaru Forester" (which sounds just plain weird and unlikely to me). -- too poor to own a Subaru Forester (which is largely true; I got my '98 Forester L used. A 2001 Forester S with a moonroof is far enough out of my price range that it might as well be a Lamborghini Diablo. The Car Talk demographics chart seems to show your average Forester owner claiming to make somewhere around $80K-$90K. If that's household, I'm too vastly far below the norm, but if that's individual income, I oughta be hitting some of you dudes up for some spare change). -- too frugal to be a Forester owner (perhaps true, see preceding). -- too male to be a Forester owner (I have heard that Subarus skew a tad more toward female drivers than many other makes, though I'll note that my Forester certainly doesn't have a dashboard bud vase like the New Beetles do). -- And, finally, I'm not "flaky" enough to be a typical Forester owner (which has to be a flaw in the survey format, I tend to think I'm surely at least as flaky as the next Forester owner ... well, at least until I read some of the more extremely tidy-minded posts in the "Cleaning exterior and interior" topic ... )
Maybe that's why Subaru is supposedly eliminating the 2.2 liter on Impreza's. Subaru has had at least 2 different engines (in the US)for years. Their sales are up, there doesn't seem to be a giant need to now start eliminating engines.
Texsubaru: Just got in from the Dairy Queen! It's been getting hot. Sounds like the Car-O-Scope Folks and the CR's Folks are Two peas in a pod.
Paisan: Howdy Partner!
You sure caused a wind storm on that "poor man" comment. Can't say that I agree with you on that issue, but who knows.
Subaru Owners were Country before Country was cool,if you know what I mean! You can see us getting outback on the weekends for a bit of R&R. The Parks,the lakes and Rivers,the Mountains and the Beach. Being cool on the way to these was'nt an original Objective. It just ended up that way.
The Audi is a nicely Design car,and it's cool,but most Subie Owners are just making a Dollar holler.
I've never been able to look too seriously at Audi since their advertising in Britain played up the "Vorsprung durch Technik" philosophy to the amusement of all. Their big safety pitch was a cable tied around the engine in some way that retracted the steering wheel in the event of a frontal impact. It was sort of a competitor technology to Airbags which never went anywhere like analogue processors and Betamax.
There was however a joke on the phrase, told, I think by Rolf Harris and most appreciated by the non-English (James Power will understand why, after living there).
A drake goes out on the town and, having a successful pick up line, takes a cute lady duck home to inspect his etchings. She settles comfortably, only to wonder what he is doing as he attaches a spring to each foot and then one to each wing. "I am going to show you my four sprung duck technique!"
I drove an A4 1.8T, and I could have afforded to buy it. It was better in some ways than the Subaru, but not $5k to $8k better. I also drove a 323i and was actually more tempted by it than by the A4, but then we were talking $10k more. Plus I'm coming off a (dearly departed) Peugeot, and finally I used to fix Jaguars for a living in the 70's.
What do all those have to do with my decision? First and foremost, I like to get as much bang as possible for my buck. The Peugeots I've owned were wonderful in that regard because I bought them used, and used Peugeots were absolutely dirt cheap. In the end though the Peugeot was costing me $150+ to fix this or that little problem almost every time I took it in for an oil change; that gets old after a while. I wanted to replace it with a car I could absolutely depend on, a car that would not be likely to begin nickel and diming me when the odometer got above 60k. I know, Audis are supposedly better in that regard - which brings me to my last point. Jaguars have been getting "better" in that regard too, since the 1970s. They still suck. The newest Ford-based piece might be ok, but the rest of them are best thought of as the kind of car that causes you to have two. Audis may genuinely be better than they used to be, but things like the C&D long termer that needed a new transmission make me wonder if Audi's newfound reliability isn't really mostly marketing. I admit that my thinking is based on past performance but when it comes to reliability there simply is no other accurate measure.
So. Give me a car that gets me good yelp for my yen, and give me demonstrated long term reliability. Give me a Subaru. A Subie with more schwup and sass - one of the B4s for example - heaven!
I posted this message on the General Maintenance & Repair forum and got no response. One of many factors that led me to buy a Forester S over an L was the interior upholstery. The fabric looked less cheap than that in the L and the multicolor pattern woven into the gray reminded me of a butterfly's wing.
Well now it reminds me of a butterfly's wing for other reasons. In the last 2 weeks I've done a lot of driving on the NJ and PA Turnpikes as well as the GS Parkway. As a result I've been driving more often than not with my arm resting on the top of the doorsill, in preparation for paying tolls. Now I notice that a small patch of fabric on the doorsill where I've rested my arm is starting to look worn down! I tried raising the nap with a nail brush and a bit of Resolve fabric cleaner (see my post in Crew - Cleaning forum) but the beginnings of wear are still obvious.
Has anyone encountered this problem? Suggested solutions? I don't drive in that position very often but I'd hate to think I never could. Thanks in advance for your comments.
I agree. I think car mag editors are hoping to see improvements in quality and reliability from companies with good design, notably Chrysler and VW/Audi. Wishful thinking, perhaps?
Ask around, lurk in those topice. Little has changed but the pretty faces.
Too educated? I thought we WERE the educators.
Flaky? Isn't that the Range Rover owners that never stray from the country club parking lot?
Well first there is no official word that the H6 will even be offered in the Legacy line in 2002.
With that said. I believe that the 2002 lineup will be as such:
1) Impreza L/RS w/ 2.5l N/A engine Manual or Auto 2) Impreza WRX 2.0l Turbo Manual or Auto 3) Legacy L/Brighton 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto 4) Outback 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto 5) Outback Limited/GT 3.0l N/A Automatic 6) Forester 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto 7) Forester 3.0l N/A Auto-only
Subaru will wind up shooting themselves in the foot with only offering the 3.0l in an automatic as they did with the SVX, I'm also afraid they will push the price of the 3.0l versions so high up that people will say "I'm not paying $30K for a SUBARU" Subaru doesn't have a $30K reputation. I'm as much of a subaru fan as the next guy (my family owns 9 of em) but for $30+K I'll get myself an Isuzu Trooper with AWD and LOW gears and can fit a ton more stuff than the outback ever will. As I said, for the $ the subarus are good cars, but as soon as they try to break out of the box and go upscale, they wind up getting slapped in the face. SVX is a prime example.
I looked at the Passat wagons before buying my Legacy L. My dad has been in the car business for 30 years and he said he has seen a lot more problems with used Volkswagens than Subarus. There is also the maintenance to consider. I've always liked Mercedes wagons but my friend owns a Mercedes and it cost him $1300 for scheduled maintenence. Add this to the cost of the car payment and the Mercedes isn't on my wish list anymore.
paisan: I mostly agree, but I wonder if the Brigthon will be dropped. Kind of looks odd without the roof rack anyway.
I dunno about the Trooper, though. People stepping up will choose an A6 Quattro, E320 4Matic, or XC.
Keep in mind the $30-32k prices are full MSRP. They should sell for maybe $27-29k or so, which doesn't seem nearly as bad (I think $30k is a psychological barrier for many people).
The first few may sell at list, but wait a few months and prices will be more reasonable.
I got 26mpg on my XT6 w/auto on my jaunt back from MI to NYC. I averaged 75mph on the trip back. I'm pretty happy with that. What kind of milage are the guys with the GT Wagons getting with the stick?
In case any one is interested I ran across this site that has the new RAV4 posted giving info and a picture of it. Dosen't even look the present one. The web sit is www.autopricing.autoworld.com
Nothing personal, but the Legacy GT wagon is the one I want, and I don't see it on your list. I don't want an Outback, and the 2000 GT I drove was a sweet handling machine (and I'm used to a Miata!).
I meant GT as a car in wagon & sedan format. Outback as in wagon & sedan format as well. I'm getting the GT Wagon in June. Have to order it next week. Yippie Ki Aye.
Oh another note for the person looking for the hitch on their OB. Reese has a very low profile one that my dad has on his lincoln town car. And I've heard about a uhaul one that it totally hidden. I wouldn't worry about the angle of departure too much, the hitch won't get hurt by whacking into things.
Anyone know of the heaviest thing that has been towed yet on a scooby?
Also anyone in the NY/NJ area looking for a great dealer let me know. Mine is A1 no-pressure sales.
>>(I also can't be the only one that thinks there is enough power in the H4 as it is).<<
I think 165hp is plenty in my Legacy L Wagon w/5sp. If the H6 was an option, especially if it had to be an auto, I wouldn't have even considered it. I can relate to the folks buying used Subies, I was looking for something that would be somewhat economical to drive, and my psychological (and practical) barrier was $20k, not 30! Luckily I was able to get my new Legacy for under 20. As for mileage, so far I've gotten 26-27 mpg in mixed driving, and the engine's just barely broken in. Highway only, I'll be surprised if I don't get at least 30 mpg as long as I don't have anything on the roof. Would a GT get better mileage due to better aerodynamics, or less due to larger contact patches and the temptation to drive it hard? Hmmm.
texsubaru I know I'm late to your comment in <531</A>> but I must say:
531I'm surely at least as Clubsflaky as the next Forester owner ... well, at least until I read some of the more extremely tidy-minded posts in the "Cleaning exterior and interior" topic ... )
I rode in a buddy's 2 door Tahoe in an off road trip, and it was slamming the ground hard with its hitch, and the hitch held up well. That was also a sturdier hitch, though, probably class 3.
Heaviest tow I've seen? Drum roll please...
Dave Chen and his 2000 Outback! Pulled this 4Runner right out of a mud pile:
I have an '00 GT sedan and I'm averaging, lessee, (picks up PalmPilot, tap tap-tap tap) 22.7mpg. I guesstimate that's a mix of 30/30/30/10 rural/secondary/highway/city driving, mostly with just me in the car. This car is still pretty new, 4k miles, and between 1k and 3k I was really hammering the gas pedal as I tested handling limits (with a big silly grin on my face the entire time, yee-haw). Best mileage for a tankful is 25.8, worst is 21.1. The tanks that were predominantly highway were in the 25mpg range; I'd be happier if the overall average moved into that zone. It irks the bejeezus out of me to know that juice gets better mileage with that upright Forester ;^)
Lars I have one on my 99 S - works well for deflecting bugs etc. I also bought it to protect the leading edge of my hood - I was getting many rock dings. At high speed (140km) the side mirrors sometimes vibrate. As mentioned you need to check the pads and protectors to make sure they do not wear through to the paint. Also be careful if you are installing yourself - it is very easy to over tighten the bolts and crack the plastic.
Well, I guess you could use a hair dryer to make the adhesive hot and and easier to remove. However, I'm not sure what you can use to get rid of the remaining glue. Maybe Glue Gone? I'm not sure if it's supposed to be for fabric though.
Argh, maybe it's too much trouble and you should just leave it . I not only have airbag warning stickers on my ML's sunvisors, but I also have a huge rollover warning sticker, with a nice picture of an SUV tipping on two wheels included ;-)
Any opinions about Subarus Added Security Service Agreement verses third party contracts? Price I was quoted for SASSA was double for shorter term, 6 yr - 80k, $100 deductible for $1962 verses 7 yr - 100k, $50 for $979 deductible from 1SourceAuto Warranty.com. I looked through some of the other forums but didn't see anything specific to Subes. The sales pitch says they replace wear and tear mechanical parts before they break to prevent ancillary damages, do a comprehensive check of the vehicle just before the warranty expires, and they know they'll be around, unlike the 3rd party insurers. Of course, with all the mergers and acquisitions going on, its just as likely that Subaru won't exist as we know it in 6 years either. Or maybe I should just go naked. I plan on keeping this car *forever*, it is replacing a 81 DL.
I'm planning on buying a used 98-99 OB and was wondering if anyone has installed a sunroof to it. I prefer an electric slide type. I saw the photos of juice's Forester - very nice. I've never seen an OB with a sunroof, other than the limiteds. I want a 5 speed and am concerned about the raised roof on the 98-99's. Also, has anybody ever installed a third seat to the cargo area of an OB to stow little kids? Thanks in advance.
Francisco: Sounds like a loaded Q; goin somewhar with it? 87 octane for the GT. No probs, plenty of power to move my big butt. Can you join us at Rocks State Park 11 June? Post answer in Events in the Owners Club Conference.
Dana, child stowage, aka third seat, has been discussed before but no one here has done it (or in the newsgroup alt.autos.subaru AFAIK). That would be one serious modification! If Subaru ever decides to build one, the market of our resident down under (Graham Peters in Australia) will have it eons before the North American market. A third seat would help Subaru in its upscale marketing (with the recently-introduced H-6 models, it wants to compare itself with the likes of Volvo).
If Subaru decides to offer a 3rd row seat, they'll have to redesign the 2nd row middle position seat belt so that it is integrated into the 2nd row seat instead of hanging from the roof. The current setup would get in the way of the 3rd row seat passengers. While we're on this topic, I wonder why Subaru chose to attach the seatbelt by this method rather than integrate it into the seat itself. Cost and packaging concerns maybe?
If a 3rd row seat is offered, the cargo area also has to be structurally rigid enough to withstand rear impacts. I wonder if the '00 wagon was designed for this in mind. When MB designed the E-class wagon, they did extensive crash tests (complete with child sized dummies) to ensure that the passenger cell could hold up to the punishment. They're so proud of this that they even printed it in the brochure :-) On the other hand, Saab doesn't offer a 3rd row seat because, "we don't believe in seating passengers in the crumple zone".
I read a Usenet post where a fellow had driven cross country and said that his Subie Legacy got better mileage at 75mph than it did at 65mph. So I figure, more's the better; at my average speed I should be getting around 35mpg .
I run 87 octane although I have put one, possibly two, tanks of the midgrade stuff in. Silly me, I failed to take note of which they were to see if the mileage changed.[1] The car runs perfectly on 87, nary a knock or a ping, and there certainly was no great power boost from higher octane. So my opinion is that as long as its coming from a decent gas station[2] I'm going to go ahead and run regular.
Cheers, WDB
[1] I may soon have the opportunity to test tank after tank after tank under similar driving conditions, in which case I will probably bother to collect more data on grades and average speeds and whatnot. Should make for good bedtime reading (as in, it will put you to sleep).
[2] There are stations that pump water and crud into your tank along with the gas, and there is gas that does not contain the additives that keep your injectors clean and your knock sensor quiet. (Back when Sunoco sold all those "blends" of gas they actually had only 2 tanks in the ground, one with their "260" grade which had all the additives in it and one with their "190" grade which had NONE of the additives in it. They mixed them in varying percentages to get all those grades of gas. One result was that their regular grade was garbage. I haven't bought Sunoco in 20 years because of that little stunt.) When buying gas I try to balance my desire for the lowest price with a modicum of common sense.
2nd row middle position seat belt [hangs] from the roof. .. would get in the way of the 3rd row seat passengers. .. I wonder why Subaru chose to attach the seatbelt by this method rather than integrate it into the seat itself. Cost and packaging concerns maybe?
Drew, I've wondered this myself. Volvo and Saab (and MB?) attach the shoulder belt to the top of the seat back, so when you fold down the seat, it's out of the way. Nice design. I'm sure others have it. The compromises the enginerds must have to make. I'd get frustrated trying to design it "right" but within budget.
I assumed that the location of the third belt was designed to give proper belt positioning for the centre seat rather than the poor compromise that comes from attaching it to the seat back. Renault do something similar with the Scenic. It works just fine for me
To Mike and Drew, thanks for your answers regarding the 3rd seat. I'm so impressed with this subaru owner's club and the answers that it is pushing me towards buying the GT wagon just so I can belong to the club. I've been analyzing and reanalyzing my decision for about 6 months. I hope to buy a wagon of some sort in the next few months. All of the compromises in the decision are killing me - mileage, size, cost, reliability, etc, etc. Thanks for the input. Dana
If you switch to a higher grade of gasoline, you may not see any difference (if any) after just one or two tanks. The ECU in car engines today will tend to 'set' it's timing advance based on an average of readings. Unless you do something to the ECU to make it 'relearn'(ie. disconnect the battery or drive under heavy load with the throttle wide-open) chances are you probably won't see any immediate difference.
Having said that, the 2.5L SOHC engine has been designed for 87 octane so it higher octane fuel probably won't improve performance. However, it is interesting to note that the very first 2.5L engine Subaru introduced back in '96 did require premium fuel. In the following year, Subaru made some modifications to not only allow the engine to run on regular, but they also increased power by 10 horses. This engine became the Phase I DOHC 2.5L that became standard in Outbacks, GTs and Foresters until the SOHC Phase II was developed. Who knows, maybe the 2.5L engine can be tweaked with premium? Any thoughts?
The Volvo, Saab, MB, and BMW (not sure 'bout this one) wagons all have lap and shoulder belts that are attached right into the seat itself. The only disadvantage that I can see is that there is a small lump (from the belt reel) at the back of the seats. It's hardly even noticable.
AFAIK, the only vehicles in North America that have the seat belt attached to the roof are the Honda Odyssey and the Acura MD-X. BTW, when you fold down the rear seats, can you detach the belt? In the Odyssey and MD-X, the lap and shoulder portions of the belt are seperate and have to be buckled up individually.
"I assumed that the location of the third belt was designed to give proper belt positioning for the centre seat rather than the poor compromise that comes from attaching it to the seat back."
I'm curious as to what you mean by this. The positioning seems fine to me when I buckle up in the middle seat. In fact, it feels exactly the same as sitting in the middle rear seat of a car (not wagon or SUV) that has a lap and shoulder belt. I'd appreciate any further explanations.
Comments
Does anybody have a tow hitch on their Outback? Is it low-profile, up close to the bumper? I'd hate to reduce the 18 degree 'departure angle' significantly (angle between the ground and a big plywood board wedged behind the back wheels and tilted up until it hits the bumper...or muffler...or tow hitch).
I'm way late on this, but I'd have to say my polished marble floor garage would have a modern set of cars, since I'm a gotta-have-the-latest-gadget-geek.
>McLaren F1 (wow, an exotic supercar in which I can take TWO of my friends along)
>Ferrari Modena (absolutely beautiful...maybe I'd park it in my livingroom and call it art)
>Scarab race boat (dual 2000 hp V12 version)
>custom 4-door Accord sleeperized (350 hp supercharged V6 driving the front wheels, and two 100 hp electric motors driving the back wheels powered by a capacitor bank or those new TMF batteries that can dump their 500 amp charge in about 1 second, full stock exterior...umm except maybe soft tires)
>And, the car I'd *actually* get if I won the lottery: Acura NSX for its perfect *balance* of manners, handling, power, looks, and cost.
Hmm, in response to Paisan, who wrote <<The subaru as I see it is basically the poor man's audi, no offense>>
That's one way to put it, but more accurately, the Audis go after a different target crowd by creating a different image. We're practical people, so my wife and I were *disgusted* with the consistently snobby Audi salespeople and the snooty, high-class image they tried to create of Audis. The product brochures are almost corny, and have "MARKETING" written all over them. Don't get me wrong: The A4 Avant 1.8t Quattro we tried is a fine vehicle, but for the money it was far from perfect. The premium stereo was boomy (though not so in the sedan), power was marginal (I know, $400 to chip it helps), automatic was underpowered, tiptronic was silly (if I forgot to up or down shift, it did it for me anyways...what's the point?). Again, 'for the money' we expected better.
Plus, I think you are comparing different cars. In our case, the Audi A4 was just not what were looking for --it has less usable cargo space (deep & narrow), low ground clearance (even for snow), and a not-very-open feeling.
When we go to replace our sedan (an aging Diamante), we'd consider the A4 sedan as a possibility. It is a very nice around town car, but doesn't cut it for the off-the-beaten path trips that we like to take.
Dave
To each their own, eh?
Dave
It was pretty flush, but still affects the departure angle somewhat. My suggestion is to find one that has it, and then measure to see how much it'll affect you on your wonderful off-road forays.
Marble is porous so it's a no-no.
It's also slippery when wet. Oh, that's right, not a problem with Soobs!
I have two funny Audi stories. First was at the auto show, where one of those snobby salesmen actually lectured me for about 15 minutes about the benefits of AWD. To ME of all people. Too bad I didn't even fit in that TT.
The 2nd in courtesy of my next door neighbor, Ralph. When it snowed he asked me to pick up some milk for him, so I did. I assumed his A6 was the FWD model.
Later I found out is was a Quattro, but he didn't have the ground clearance to drive in the 10-12 inches of snow on our street.
I got a real kick out of that. My Forester was so capable I had to try *hard* to make it sweat.
-juice
If I remember correctly, the 323i ad indicates cago volume for the wagon at just under 48 cubic feet. The Outback shows 68.6 with rear seat down. Once again, your comments are right on the mark. The Bimmer IS much smaller. By the way, my wife says she wouldn't be caught dead in a yuppie mobile! Thanks for making comparisons meaningful.
Don
I doubt an S4 owner would have ventured out, either.
My former neigbor had an AWD Eclipse and he said it was awful in the snow. The front spoiler was like a snow plow.
-juice
Did you know the 5-series wagon is classified as a compact, while the Ford Focus wagon is classified as a mid-size?
Can you imagine a family "upgrading" to a Focus after owning a 540i wagon? I believe they'd also be upgrading, in size at least, if they chose a Legacy.
Bimmers are sporty, but very small. I believe it was Drew that pointed out their in-line engines (mounted longitudinally for better weight distribution) sacrifice a lot of interior room.
Note that all Subaru engines have been mouted longitudinally, but they're shorter because of the boxer layout.
-juice
I installed the bug deflector on my '00 OB for about 6 weeks ago and haven't had any problems. I have no idea whether it's actually helped deflect stuff over or not, but I don't have any chips or nicks on my windshield and haven't received any new ones on my hood. (I got the deflector because I got a nice chip the first month and was quite shaken). It did vibrate once at about 85 mph with a very strong crosswind. I noticed I had one attachment off a little bit and haven't had any vibration since. (Even took the car over 100 mph to test-FUN). There was a post a while back about someone who took it off when he washed and noticed wear happening through the wear pads (provided). I don't take it off to wash, just slip my rag between deflector and hood. I really like the look of it and I haven't seen any new chips.
Brett
L- Sedan 5 spd 19,200
Outback 5 spd 22,700
I can't believe that Subaru is going to all H6 engines... 43% of Legacy's are sold in "L" or Brighton's and if Subaru's go to 30,000 they will be priced out of a good portion of their market. Toyota and Honda have both 4 cyl and 6 cyl in their competing models.. (I also can't be the only one that thinks there is enough power in the H4 as it is). Juice has been (rightly) defending Subaru's power in these posts. I think it is a smart move to offer an H6 option, however I just don't see Subaru going that far upmarket.
Frank
Chris
-- "just too educated to be driving a Subaru Forester" (which sounds just plain weird and unlikely to me).
-- too poor to own a Subaru Forester (which is largely true; I got my '98 Forester L used. A 2001 Forester S with a moonroof is far enough out of my price range that it might as well be a Lamborghini Diablo. The Car Talk demographics chart seems to show your average Forester owner claiming to make somewhere around $80K-$90K. If that's household, I'm too vastly far below the norm, but if that's individual income, I oughta be hitting some of you dudes up for some spare change).
-- too frugal to be a Forester owner (perhaps true, see preceding).
-- too male to be a Forester owner (I have heard that Subarus skew a tad more toward female drivers than many other makes, though I'll note that my Forester certainly doesn't have a dashboard bud vase like the New Beetles do).
-- And, finally, I'm not "flaky" enough to be a typical Forester owner (which has to be a flaw in the survey format, I tend to think I'm surely at least as flaky as the next Forester owner ... well, at least until I read some of the more extremely tidy-minded posts in the "Cleaning exterior and interior" topic ... )
I'm NOT too vastly far below the norm" ...
Frank
Just got in from the Dairy Queen!
It's been getting hot. Sounds like the
Car-O-Scope Folks and the CR's Folks are
Two peas in a pod.
Paisan:
Howdy Partner!
You sure caused a wind storm on that "poor man"
comment. Can't say that I agree with you on
that issue, but who knows.
Subaru Owners were Country before Country was
cool,if you know what I mean! You can see us
getting outback on the weekends for a
bit of R&R. The Parks,the lakes and Rivers,the Mountains and the Beach. Being cool on the way to
these was'nt an original Objective. It just ended
up that way.
The Audi is a nicely Design car,and it's cool,but most Subie Owners are just making a Dollar holler.
Later Ya'll
There was however a joke on the phrase, told, I think by Rolf Harris and most appreciated by the non-English (James Power will understand why, after living there).
A drake goes out on the town and, having a successful pick up line, takes a cute lady duck home to inspect his etchings. She settles comfortably, only to wonder what he is doing as he attaches a spring to each foot and then one to each wing. "I am going to show you my four sprung duck technique!"
Now who could buy an Audi?
Cheers
Graham
What do all those have to do with my decision? First and foremost, I like to get as much bang as possible for my buck. The Peugeots I've owned were wonderful in that regard because I bought them used, and used Peugeots were absolutely dirt cheap. In the end though the Peugeot was costing me $150+ to fix this or that little problem almost every time I took it in for an oil change; that gets old after a while. I wanted to replace it with a car I could absolutely depend on, a car that would not be likely to begin nickel and diming me when the odometer got above 60k. I know, Audis are supposedly better in that regard - which brings me to my last point. Jaguars have been getting "better" in that regard too, since the 1970s. They still suck. The newest Ford-based piece might be ok, but the rest of them are best thought of as the kind of car that causes you to have two. Audis may genuinely be better than they used to be, but things like the C&D long termer that needed a new transmission make me wonder if Audi's newfound reliability isn't really mostly marketing. I admit that my thinking is based on past performance but when it comes to reliability there simply is no other accurate measure.
So. Give me a car that gets me good yelp for my yen, and give me demonstrated long term reliability. Give me a Subaru. A Subie with more schwup and sass - one of the B4s for example - heaven!
Cheers,
WDB
I posted this message on the General Maintenance & Repair forum and got no response. One of many factors that led me to buy a Forester S over an L was the interior upholstery. The fabric looked less cheap than that in the L and the multicolor pattern woven into the gray reminded me
of a butterfly's wing.
Well now it reminds me of a butterfly's wing for
other reasons. In the last 2 weeks I've done a lot of driving on the NJ and PA Turnpikes as well as the GS Parkway. As a result I've been driving more often than not with my arm resting on the top of the doorsill, in preparation for paying tolls. Now I notice that a small patch of fabric on the
doorsill where I've rested my arm is starting to
look worn down! I tried raising the nap with a
nail brush and a bit of Resolve fabric cleaner (see my post in Crew - Cleaning forum) but the
beginnings of wear are still obvious.
Has anyone encountered this problem? Suggested
solutions? I don't drive in that position very
often but I'd hate to think I never could. Thanks
in advance for your comments.
Ask around, lurk in those topice. Little has changed but the pretty faces.
Too educated? I thought we WERE the educators.
Flaky? Isn't that the Range Rover owners that never stray from the country club parking lot?
-juice
With that said. I believe that the 2002 lineup will be as such:
1) Impreza L/RS w/ 2.5l N/A engine Manual or Auto
2) Impreza WRX 2.0l Turbo Manual or Auto
3) Legacy L/Brighton 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto
4) Outback 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto
5) Outback Limited/GT 3.0l N/A Automatic
6) Forester 2.5l N/A Manual or Auto
7) Forester 3.0l N/A Auto-only
Subaru will wind up shooting themselves in the foot with only offering the 3.0l in an automatic as they did with the SVX, I'm also afraid they will push the price of the 3.0l versions so high up that people will say "I'm not paying $30K for a SUBARU" Subaru doesn't have a $30K reputation. I'm as much of a subaru fan as the next guy (my family owns 9 of em) but for $30+K I'll get myself an Isuzu Trooper with AWD and LOW gears and can fit a ton more stuff than the outback ever will. As I said, for the $ the subarus are good cars, but as soon as they try to break out of the box and go upscale, they wind up getting slapped in the face. SVX is a prime example.
-mike
I dunno about the Trooper, though. People stepping up will choose an A6 Quattro, E320 4Matic, or XC.
Keep in mind the $30-32k prices are full MSRP. They should sell for maybe $27-29k or so, which doesn't seem nearly as bad (I think $30k is a psychological barrier for many people).
The first few may sell at list, but wait a few months and prices will be more reasonable.
-juice
That's pretty amazing, considering it was mostly commuting to the city with the 2nd worst traffic in the country (DC).
I think they stopped using oxygenated fuel or something. Mileage has improved markedly lately.
-juice
-mike
Oh another note for the person looking for the hitch on their OB. Reese has a very low profile one that my dad has on his lincoln town car. And I've heard about a uhaul one that it totally hidden. I wouldn't worry about the angle of departure too much, the hitch won't get hurt by whacking into things.
Anyone know of the heaviest thing that has been towed yet on a scooby?
Also anyone in the NY/NJ area looking for a great dealer let me know. Mine is A1 no-pressure sales.
-mike
that thinks there is enough power in the H4 as it
is).<<
I think 165hp is plenty in my Legacy L Wagon w/5sp. If the H6 was an option, especially if it had to be an auto, I wouldn't have even considered it. I can relate to the folks buying used Subies, I was looking for something that would be somewhat economical to drive, and my psychological (and practical) barrier was $20k, not 30! Luckily I was able to get my new Legacy for under 20.
As for mileage, so far I've gotten 26-27 mpg in mixed driving, and the engine's just barely broken in. Highway only, I'll be surprised if I don't get at least 30 mpg as long as I don't have anything on the roof. Would a GT get better mileage due to better aerodynamics, or less due to larger contact patches and the temptation to drive it hard? Hmmm.
Dave
Congratulations! You'll love it. But then, you knew that, didn't you?
Dave
531I'm surely at least as Clubsflaky as the next Forester owner ... well, at least until I read some of the more extremely tidy-minded posts in the "Cleaning exterior and interior" topic ... )
LOL (laugh out loud). That's rich.
..Mike
..Mike
Heaviest tow I've seen? Drum roll please...
Dave Chen and his 2000 Outback! Pulled this 4Runner right out of a mud pile:
http://thejuiceman.homepage.com/rescue.html
That's probably about 4000 pounds or so.
Hey - technically, is that a braked trailer or an un-braked trailer?
-juice
Or was that towed for an extended period?
-mike
All Wheel Drive, 0-60 in 5, and it be a wagon. yea, buddy.....
Cheers,
WDB
I have one on my 99 S - works well for deflecting bugs etc. I also bought it to protect the leading edge of my hood - I was getting many rock dings. At high speed (140km) the side mirrors sometimes vibrate. As mentioned you need to check the pads and protectors to make sure they do not wear through to the paint. Also be careful if you are installing yourself - it is very easy to over tighten the bolts and crack the plastic.
Stephen
Argh, maybe it's too much trouble and you should just leave it . I not only have airbag warning stickers on my ML's sunvisors, but I also have a huge rollover warning sticker, with a nice picture of an SUV tipping on two wheels included ;-)
Drew
What gas octane rating do you use for your GT's?
Francisco
Me, well, I'm getting like 19 in the city and 26 on the highway. Vroom vroom...
Dana, child stowage, aka third seat, has been discussed before but no one here has done it (or in the newsgroup alt.autos.subaru AFAIK). That would be one serious modification! If Subaru ever decides to build one, the market of our resident down under (Graham Peters in Australia) will have it eons before the North American market. A third seat would help Subaru in its upscale marketing (with the recently-introduced H-6 models, it wants to compare itself with the likes of Volvo).
..Mike
..Mike
If a 3rd row seat is offered, the cargo area also has to be structurally rigid enough to withstand rear impacts. I wonder if the '00 wagon was designed for this in mind. When MB designed the E-class wagon, they did extensive crash tests (complete with child sized dummies) to ensure that the passenger cell could hold up to the punishment. They're so proud of this that they even printed it in the brochure :-) On the other hand, Saab doesn't offer a 3rd row seat because, "we don't believe in seating passengers in the crumple zone".
Drew
I run 87 octane although I have put one, possibly two, tanks of the midgrade stuff in. Silly me, I failed to take note of which they were to see if the mileage changed.[1] The car runs perfectly on 87, nary a knock or a ping, and there certainly was no great power boost from higher octane. So my opinion is that as long as its coming from a decent gas station[2] I'm going to go ahead and run regular.
Cheers,
WDB
[1] I may soon have the opportunity to test tank after tank after tank under similar driving conditions, in which case I will probably bother to collect more data on grades and average speeds and whatnot. Should make for good bedtime reading (as in, it will put you to sleep).
[2] There are stations that pump water and crud into your tank along with the gas, and there is gas that does not contain the additives that keep your injectors clean and your knock sensor quiet. (Back when Sunoco sold all those "blends" of gas they actually had only 2 tanks in the ground, one with their "260" grade which had all the additives in it and one with their "190" grade which had NONE of the additives in it. They mixed them in varying percentages to get all those grades of gas. One result was that their regular grade was garbage. I haven't bought Sunoco in 20 years because of that little stunt.) When buying gas I try to balance my desire for the lowest price with a modicum of common sense.
Drew, I've wondered this myself. Volvo and Saab (and MB?) attach the shoulder belt to the top of the seat back, so when you fold down the seat, it's out of the way. Nice design. I'm sure others have it. The compromises the enginerds must have to make. I'd get frustrated trying to design it "right" but within budget.
..Mike
..Mike
cheers
Graham
Dana
If you switch to a higher grade of gasoline, you may not see any difference (if any) after just one or two tanks. The ECU in car engines today will tend to 'set' it's timing advance based on an average of readings. Unless you do something to the ECU to make it 'relearn'(ie. disconnect the battery or drive under heavy load with the throttle wide-open) chances are you probably won't see any immediate difference.
Having said that, the 2.5L SOHC engine has been designed for 87 octane so it higher octane fuel probably won't improve performance. However, it is interesting to note that the very first 2.5L engine Subaru introduced back in '96 did require premium fuel. In the following year, Subaru made some modifications to not only allow the engine to run on regular, but they also increased power by 10 horses. This engine became the Phase I DOHC 2.5L that became standard in Outbacks, GTs and Foresters until the SOHC Phase II was developed. Who knows, maybe the 2.5L engine can be tweaked with premium? Any thoughts?
AFAIK, the only vehicles in North America that have the seat belt attached to the roof are the Honda Odyssey and the Acura MD-X. BTW, when you fold down the rear seats, can you detach the belt? In the Odyssey and MD-X, the lap and shoulder portions of the belt are seperate and have to be buckled up individually.
I'm curious as to what you mean by this. The positioning seems fine to me when I buckle up in the middle seat. In fact, it feels exactly the same as sitting in the middle rear seat of a car (not wagon or SUV) that has a lap and shoulder belt. I'd appreciate any further explanations.
Drew