Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100 · June 2018

Ab.....good to have you back....glad it worked out better than expected.

driver100 · June 2018

The Carpet removal guys girlfriend was supposed to come today to remove the wallpaper from my brothers apartment. Tomorrow she was supposed to clean the place.

She phoned while we were on the way to say she couldn't find her car keys. I told her to keep looking, if she got home the keys are somewhere. We continued on and we have now removed about half the wallpaper ourselves.

She phoned every hour to say she was still looking for her keys. She says it is a rental car and she can't get keys until Tuesday. Once before she didn't make her first appointment because her kid wasn't feeling well. I have a feeling she had a late night or she has a problem like maybe a drinking problem.

She is supposed to meet me at 10:30 tomorrow at the apartment, her boyfriend will drive her in and she will buy new supplies because they are locked up in the car.

Does this story even make sense? I came to realize when I employed people.........when people start doing this kind of thing, it never improves. Last chance is tomorrow at 10:30 or she is toast.

roadburner · June 2018

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.

I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.

Sandman6472 · June 2018

Yep, rehab almost killed me so after about 36 hours, I left and after a few days at home, was feeling stronger. Had to use a walker in the house but back to my cane now 90% while using the walker at night. Got a shower chair which was the best Amazon purchase ever, thank you gift card from Coconut Creek Hyundai. Fits in our walk-in shower beautifully and today, took one in the kids bathroom just in case I do return to work in the morning. Still having some vertigo and won’t go if it persists but if it lessens, will go in tomorrow. Not going to push myself as I have a few doctor/dental visits coming up the next few weeks. “Easy does it” is my new motto going forward as never want to get that sick again...ever!!

The Sandman

dino001 · June 2018

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.

You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?

explorerx4 · June 2018

If there are any other BMW dealerships in the area, I'm sure they will appreciate the change.

roadburner · June 2018

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?

Yes.

sda · June 2018

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.

Throw the gavel at them!

roadburner · June 2018

explorerx4 said:
If there are any other BMW dealerships in the area, I'm sure they will appreciate the change.

Don Jacobs in Lexington isn't any great shakes either; I'll almost certainly go to BMW of Cincinnati North.
I'll stick with BMW of Louisville for parts/service unless they screw that up...

fintail · June 2018

Sure would be a shame if someone told BMW

How many dealers within an hour's drive? I'd pay to not have tinted windows, don't like it, and don't need it here.

If I deal on another new MB and the dealer nearest me devolved like that, I'd have no problem walking away. There are 4 dealers within 40 miles of me - it would be an initial hassle, but worth it not to deal with that garbage.

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville not a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...

abacomike · June 2018

fintail said:

Sure would be a shame if someone told BMW How many dealers within an hour's drive? I'd pay to not have tinted windows, don't like it, and don't need it here. If I deal on another new MB and the dealer nearest me devolved like that, I'd have no problem walking away. There are 4 dealers within 40 miles of me - it would be an initial hassle, but worth it not to deal with that garbage.
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville not a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW; On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores. BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...

That’s what I had to do, fintail. The dealer 1-1/2 miles from me refused to discount an S450 more than $1500. So I drove 45 miles to Palm Beach and got it there - $7600 below MSRP ($105,795)+ I had a USAA fleet discount of $2500. But I do go to my local dealer for car washes and service.

berri · June 2018

I find all this ironic as more and more buyers don't have the strong allegiance to a brand they had even 5 or 6 years ago. Load on the dealer packs and I'd just look at some competition instead.

abacomike · June 2018

berri said:

I find all this ironic as more and more buyers don't have the strong allegiance to a brand they had even 5 or 6 years ago. Load on the dealer packs and I'd just look at some competition instead.

I believe there is still quite a bit of brand loyalty - it’s dealership loyalty that is waning because they are not working hard enough to keep their loyal customers. I’ve ventured out in the past 15 years and purchased a Lexus, 4 BMW’s, and even an Infiniti. But I always seem to go back to Mercedes Benz. Their cars fit me right and I enjoy the ride and handling.

roadburner · June 2018

abacomike said:

berri said:

I find all this ironic as more and more buyers don't have the strong allegiance to a brand they had even 5 or 6 years ago. Load on the dealer packs and I'd just look at some competition instead.

I believe there is still quite a bit of brand loyalty - it’s dealership loyalty that is waning because they are not working hard enough to keep their loyal customers. I’ve ventured out in the past 15 years and purchased a Lexus, 4 BMW’s, and even an Infiniti. But I always seem to go back to Mercedes Benz. Their cars fit me right and I enjoy the ride and handling.

Same here, except with BMWs.

isellhondas · June 2018

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville not a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...

It sounds like they have turned into the kind of store that gives the business the reputation that they have.

I was lucky not to work in a store like that. I wouldn't have lasted long. Window tint? That makes a used car saleproof here in the Northwest where the sun rarely comes out!

dino001 · June 2018

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.

I think this would qualify as criminal, wouldn’t it? Literally, no hyperbole. Essentially willfully selling an incomplete product for full price. I’m sure there are laws against that, not just civil contract enforcement. There is still legally (I hope) a big difference between selling a product of little value for an inflated price and not delivering even that and taking the money.

isellhondas · June 2018

fintail said:
Sure would be a shame if someone told BMW

How many dealers within an hour's drive? I'd pay to not have tinted windows, don't like it, and don't need it here.

If I deal on another new MB and the dealer nearest me devolved like that, I'd have no problem walking away. There are 4 dealers within 40 miles of me - it would be an initial hassle, but worth it not to deal with that garbage.

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville not a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...

Do you think BMW would really care? And, if so, what could they do? As long as they move a high volume of cars (?) I doubt that BMW would care one twit! I guess I could be wrong?

oldfarmer50 · June 2018

stickguy said:
just booked a couple of nights in Saratoga (end of next week) for a little getaway with the wife (taking advantage of daughter being home to watch the dog). Now just have to plan some activities. I would consider the car museum, but not sure that will fly with her!

maybe need to hit the brewery first.

The museum was promoting a "cars of the 50s" exhibit so you might want to check. If it's something you like you could try holding your breath or stomping your feet until she let's you go.

roadburner · June 2018

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.
I think this would qualify as criminal, wouldn’t it? Literally, no hyperbole. Essentially willfully selling an incomplete product for full price. I’m sure there are laws against that, not just civil contract enforcement. There is still legally (I hope) a big difference between selling a product of little value for an inflated price and not delivering even that and taking the money.

It's definitely illegal; it's called theft by deception in Kentucky.

oldfarmer50 · June 2018

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.

Unbelievable. I suppose you'd have to recuse yourself but that would be one heck of a fraud case to bring to a grand jury.

imidazol97 · June 2018

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.
Unbelievable. I suppose you'd have to recuse yourself but that would be one heck of a fraud case to bring to a grand jury.

Does the Commonwealth have laws about that kind of thing?
Do they enforce them?

iluvmysephia1 · June 2018

I find all this ironic as more and more buyers don't have the strong allegiance to a brand they had even 5 or 6 years ago. Load on the dealer packs and I'd just look at some competition instead.

Interesting comment, berri, and looking at my own fun little faux searches that I do while planning out a purchase ~~dreaming~~ of my next car, it pretty much includes Kia, Nissan and the former Scion, which is now of course completely Toyota.

I followed and pulled alongside a Toyota Yaris IA in grey metallic last night, and, wow, I still love the little baby Mazda3 rear end of the Yaris iA, and the front still has a nicely jarring effect to the perky little subcompact. It was about 7:00PM or so, plenty of light left in the southern New Mexico evening, but I had ta glance over into this guy's Yaris iA. The thing I noticed, besides the alluring humm of the small car's engine, was his entertainment screen lit up and glowing from the top-middle of his dashboard. I would love it if Toyota would add Android Auto to the mix, but, Toyota is having automotive legal issues with adding that to it's cars at this time. They do offer Apple CarPlay, though. From the time I planned to trade the 2011 Kia Soul in on a black 2016 Scion iA in May of 2016, my love for the little sparkplug with Mazda mechanicals hasn't dimished one bit.

I could still see myself buying a later model CPO Toyota Yaris iA. The thing is, Nissan's Sentra is enticing me of late and I know I can always count on Kia to deliver a great car at a great price with an unbeatable Long-Haul Warranty.

Exciting times exist for a small car buyer like myself, and, try as I may to put favorite Kia Motors of South Korea down, I can't. At all. Still my fave carmaker. But your comment points out a truth about today's car market - sure, many, many car buyers still have allegiance to one and one carmaker only. But there's such a large competitive market out there and deals that are ever-changing as sales quotas have ta be met, that a person can change favorites in this new and CPO car buyer's derby overnight these days!

roadburner · June 2018

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...
When will they learn? Surveys? New sales figures? So they want to tun the store as it’s a Kia dealership. Won’t end up well.
I suspect that a disgruntled current(or ex) employee will soon rat them out. I've even heard that the mop and glow doesn't get applied unless the salesperson specifically requests it.
Wow. Just wow. I could not work in a place like that.
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.
Unbelievable. I suppose you'd have to recuse yourself but that would be one heck of a fraud case to bring to a grand jury.

It's not in my jurisdiction...

roadburner · June 2018

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:
You mean they sell it, take the money and NOT put it on?
Yes.
Unbelievable. I suppose you'd have to recuse yourself but that would be one heck of a fraud case to bring to a grand jury.
Does the Commonwealth have laws about that kind of thing?
Do they enforce them?

Someone would have to drop a dime on them or else one of the customers who got ripped off would have to file a complaint.

dino001 · June 2018

isellhondas said:

fintail said:
Sure would be a shame if someone told BMW

How many dealers within an hour's drive? I'd pay to not have tinted windows, don't like it, and don't need it here.

If I deal on another new MB and the dealer nearest me devolved like that, I'd have no problem walking away. There are 4 dealers within 40 miles of me - it would be an initial hassle, but worth it not to deal with that garbage.

roadburner said:
Well, it seems like I left BMW of Louisville not a moment too soon; AMSI has installed a new management team(the third since I started there in June 2016, if you're keeping score). The new guys have bumped up the Doc Fee to $599, and added a non-negotiable pack for $1,500- which gets you wheel locks, window tint, and mop and glow. On top of that, they've fired/run off all but a couple of the long time sales people and replaced them with young green peas who-as one insider commented-can't even spell BMW;
On top of that, the GM is also responsible for the Cadillac and Volvo stores.
BMWUSA will go nuts if/when they find out...

Do you think BMW would really care? And, if so, what could they do? As long as they move a high volume of cars (?) I doubt that BMW would care one twit! I guess I could be wrong?

One thing to make them care may be low survey scores, but the customers have to actually act on it. Also phone calls with complaints about packs may do something. Best cure would of course be drop in sales, but again, tne customers would need to consistently walk away in numbers for that.

abacomike · June 2018

Southeast Toyota’s headquarters are in Deerfield Beach Florida, about 4 miles from where I live. They are undergoing a construction program that replaces all their existing buildings - close to a $100 million investment. So, they have to soak all their dealers for as much as they can get.

If I was in the market for a Toyota, I would buy one out of the southeast zone. I would refuse to pay for stuff I don’t want added at their port of entry which I believe is Jacksonville. All cars manufactured in the USA for SET go to that port first for distribution.

fintail · June 2018

If they end up dealing with constant complaints, they might care. But that would take time, as would the volume of bad surveys needed to take any action, no doubt.

This is also the age of social media reviews, and a slew of yelp complaints might catch attention, too.

isellhondas said:

Do you think BMW would really care? And, if so, what could they do? As long as they move a high volume of cars (?) I doubt that BMW would care one twit! I guess I could be wrong?

graphicguy · June 2018

Thanks everyone for the kind birthday wishes. Birthdays are a privilege that some (many) do not get to celebrate.

I’d like to say I’m healthy, wealthy and wise. But, I’ll settle for one out of 3.

driver100 · June 2018

Dealers are being squeezed these days....they have to make money somehow. Their contract with BMW USA probably allows them to do add ons to make more profit.
Customers won't know they are being scammed or they will leave.....no reason to do a bad survey or do a review. I don't think it will matter. Customers getting turned off and leaving is best reply.

driver100 · June 2018

graphicguy said:

28firefighter said:
Happy birthday, @graphicguy!
Thanks!

+1 in case I forgot to do it GG!.....but I think I did

driver100 · June 2018

So the wallpaper removal and clean the apartment lady texted at 8 p.m. she found the keys in her coat pocket, 10 hours later.
Now she will come this morning at 11 a.m.

Sweet Lies.....sweet little lies....tell me lies..........

She didn't want to work on Sunday IMHO. She was going to get a ride in with her boyfriend....but, then she realized she would be showing up in her car, so the only explanation is "I found my keys".

nyccarguy · June 2018

Happy birthday to you & many more @graphicguy!

dino001 · June 2018

Hey, Honorable Burner (or just about, I guess) - can I make make "Sport" mode to boot automatically on a engine restart? After a year, my car "adjusted" to my rather cautious driving and now it got lazy and latent in downshifts in Comfort mode at times when I actually need it. It feels like it's telling me "I don't know, you usually don't do this, so why now", pretty annoying actually. I thought changing to "Sport" mode would do the trick and it did, but it comes back to "Comfort" on each engine restart. I don't see an explicit option or instruction how to make it start on Sport. I know "Sport+" always resets itself, but I thought "Sport" will stay. I played with drivers profiles, but to no avail.

abacomike · June 2018

Can you imagine what a $2500 tariff on imported cars will do to sales of German, Italian and other European imports? I would think that many of those manufacturers will expand their US assembly plants to handle more models and higher production. Lower retail priced imports will suffer greatly, but higher end models probably won’t affect sales significantly.

Trump is also considering tariffs on imported auto parts. That will affect all European imports significantly. BMW and Mercedes and VW import huge amounts of parts, engines, etc., to manufacture their vehicles at their US plants.

fintail · June 2018

The profit margins must be so high on most of the highline imports, German anyway, that the makers could probably absorb most of a tariff and have that be it.

If the makers of cars that people actually desire want to play hardball, it would be amusing if they threatened to shut down their US manufacturing bases - say they'll pull out, demolish the facilities, and leave those low tax low amenity areas spinning in the wind. As the corrupt cowards at the helm want to go it alone anyway, maybe the rest of the world will adapt. Might put a fear of something in someone. Or if the regime wants to play, threaten to end the moronic 25 year private import rule, which was bought and paid for by MB.

Consumers never win in a trade war. A trade war has even less precedent going for it than trickle down theory. It's as if this regime is just a bunch of cronies and not people with actual real world experience. Oh wait...

berri · June 2018

Trade war and tariffs = higher consumer prices and inflation that generally lead to a recession or worse.

ab348 · June 2018

POTUS has also threatened tariffs on Canadian autos and parts which would likely be swiftly followed by Canadian tariffs on US-made versions of the same. It is sheer lunacy.

An excellent article in the NY Times magazine about the Canadian view, well worth a read: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/09/magazine/justin-trudeau-chrystia-freeland-trade-canada-us-.html

snakeweasel · June 2018

houdini1 said:

Speaking of Honda, I just saw where they are bringing the Super Cub back to U.S. Neat little motorcycle.

Yes they are coming back an they are already listed on Honda's website. My understanding is that they will be available in limited numbers which I think is wise for Honda. The Cub is configured and priced very close to the Grom and I think it would appeal more to those looking for a little nostalgia.

Personally if I were looking at a small bike I'd spend the extra 8 or 900 and get the Rebel.

dino001 · June 2018

fintail said:
The profit margins must be so high on most of the highline imports, German anyway, that the makers could probably absorb most of a tariff and have that be it.

If the makers of cars that people actually desire want to play hardball, it would be amusing if they threatened to shut down their US manufacturing bases - say they'll pull out, demolish the facilities, and leave those low tax low amenity areas spinning in the wind. As the corrupt cowards at the helm want to go it alone anyway, maybe the rest of the world will adapt. Might put a fear of something in someone. Or if the regime wants to play, threaten to end the moronic 25 year private import rule, which was bought and paid for by MB.

Consumers never win in a trade war. A trade war has even less precedent going for it than trickle down theory. It's as if this regime is just a bunch of cronies and not people with actual real world experience. Oh wait...

Ahhh, they have all the money, so what's the problem argument. It kind of makes sense until you understand concepts of expected risk-adjusted returns and liquidity of markets/capital and "let them make less profit" argument quickly falls apart.

It's very strange if that MB would have been behind private import ban. Benz, Audi, or BMW vehicles are significantly more expensive in Europe (and anywhere else for that matter, including Canada and Mexico) than in the US for comparable configurations. Why would that matter for them if somebody was bringing something from there that costs double that it would cost here? Yes, there are unavailable models, so if you really want that B-class, knock yourself out, but it's gonna cost you dearly, even if allowed. Things just don't add up.

Michaell · June 2018

ab348 said:
POTUS has also threatened tariffs on Canadian autos and parts which would likely be swiftly followed by Canadian tariffs on US-made versions of the same. It is sheer lunacy.

An excellent article in the NY Times magazine about the Canadian view, well worth a read: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/09/magazine/justin-trudeau-chrystia-freeland-trade-canada-us-.html

Thank you for the link. Well written, and provides a good perspecitive of how Canada looks at these issues.

I have been an occasional business traveller to Canada (Ontario mostly, with a couple trips to Quebec and one to Manitoba). I have truly enjoyed the time I've spent there, and get frustrated when US citizens think of Canada as a sort of 51st state.

I'm afraid that Congress won't be able to reign in our commander-in-chief, and that US leadership in world affairs will be greatly diminished.

carnaught · June 2018

Hmm, this is getting too much in the relm of politics for me to want to participate.

fintail · June 2018

Nobody said there was no problem, but if it came down to it, they could afford to eat at least some of the tariff and possibly retain similar market share, which may be preferable to passing it all to the consumer and losing share/sales. Please do explain how this is undone by expected returns and liquidity. I won't hold my breath.

MB sought the 25 year rule during the grey market boom, as they thought it was impacting their sales. The grey market boom was in large part because MB failed to bring over the desirable models (we didn't get 500SEL until MY 1984). Those cars are more expensive in Europe largely due to taxation Nothing to add up, it is historic and objective fact that the 25 year rule was bought and paid for, MB directly lobbied for the Imported Vehicle "Safety" (sarcastic quotes) Compliance Act of 1988, and got what they paid for.

dino001 said:

Ahhh, they have all the money, so what's the problem argument. It kind of makes sense until you understand concepts of expected risk-adjusted returns and liquidity of markets/capital and "let them make less profit" argument quickly falls apart.

It's very strange if that MB would have been behind private import ban. Benz, Audi, or BMW vehicles are significantly more expensive in Europe (and anywhere else for that matter, including Canada and Mexico) than in the US for comparable configurations. Why would that matter for them if somebody was bringing something from there that costs double that it would cost here? Yes, there are unavailable models, so if you really want that B-class, knock yourself out, but it's gonna cost you dearly, even if allowed. Things just don't add up.

dino001 · June 2018

Trump and his accolades represent return to merkantilism, an economic ideology that developed in Renaissance and was a dominant world view until end of WWII. It essentially recognized limited resources, but it drew its conclusion that countries have to to engage in fight for dominance. It sees all economic activity, especially one done on global stage, as exclusively zero-sum game. No surprise it drove countries to endless wars for domination, as opening access to resources for "us" is essentially equivalent with shutting the access to "them". There is no possibility of "them" being better in anything. "They" are from different tribe, so "they" are clearly cheats, liars and no good for anything other than fish feed. The worst part about merkantilism is that it's quite attractive as it taps to basic tribal understanding of the world (us vs. them) and it appears to deliver at first on its promise. It actually can "deliver" for quite a while (think British Empire), but usually ends in some kind of calamity and reset. Also, lost productivity, or waste of capital are not obviously easily visible, as they slowly accumulate over time. They manifest themselves in colonial powers ratcheting up their exploitation of colonies, as growth becomes harder and harder to come by. Merkantilists also find very quick and easy explanations for everything that's ill in the economy - it's always "them", Dutch, French, English, Germans, now of course Chinese and apparently Canadians "stabbing us in the back".

fintail · June 2018

Good read indeed. If only more people realized how disastrous this could (and probably will) be. There's zero history of such trade action helping the overall economy, and it won't be different this time.

So when's the recession, Q1 or Q2 of 2019?

And now Merkel and Trudeau are the effective leaders of the free world, as the supposed one meets with a fellow tinpot dictator.

ab348 said:
POTUS has also threatened tariffs on Canadian autos and parts which would likely be swiftly followed by Canadian tariffs on US-made versions of the same. It is sheer lunacy.

An excellent article in the NY Times magazine about the Canadian view, well worth a read: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/09/magazine/justin-trudeau-chrystia-freeland-trade-canada-us-.html

dino001 · June 2018

fintail said:
Nobody said there was no problem, but if it came down to it, they could afford to eat at least some of the tariff and possibly retain similar market share, which may be preferable to passing it all to the consumer and losing share/sales. Please do explain how this is undone by expected returns and liquidity. I won't hold my breath.

Each economic activity has its expected rate of return. When the rate is reduced for one reason or another and the markets are liquid (majority of companies are traded on stock exchanges), capital will escape to support activities that will support better rates of return until the price reflects the new return. In other words, not only the profits go down, but also investors will be willing to pay proportionally less for those profits. In simplest terms, if company was earning a dollar per share per year and the investors will pay 15 dollars for it (PE=15) and the earnings go to say 90 cents without prospects of properly improving (the drop is not a one-off event, but it is sustained) and the expected future growth of profit is also reduced, the new price for that 90 cents won't likely be 15 times, but say 14, 13 or 12 times (just making up some numbers). So ten percent reduction in profit may reduce the price of the company by more than 10 percent. Reduction in that profit will also likely affect company's ability to borrow money at a certain rate. They may need to pay more in interest, which in turn may also reduce their profits further. And so on - until new balance is reached. And I mean it all long-term, not just one-day reaction that can often be very emotional and extreme. There is no doubt that if there is noticeable and sustained reduction in margin, there will be sustained reduction in access to capital.

BTW, I now recall hearing about that whole 500SEL issue on one of the car shows (this was before my time in the US). When it comes to pricing difference between Europe and US, taxation account for perhaps 20 percent. The rest is just the pricing strategy. US market is huge and very competitive, including upscale models. You don't see as much disparity in truly high-end brands (Ferrari, Porsche), as those guys have "global" pricing, but when you go lower (like 3-series, 5-series, even 7-series), the disparity is much more than just taxes. I looked up price of my 430 GC or my previous 328 wagon and in comparable German configurations cost nearly double of what I paid in the US, including taxes. It was close to 100 grand for my wagon (! - I paid about $47K including taxes), it's over 70 grand for my GC (paid less than $50K including taxes). I believe the first time US dollar was much lower, nearly 1.5 USD for 1 EUR in October 2011, now it's only 1.17. This would explain the spread coming down, as they kept their price in Euros and dollars more-less stable in both markets, so the spread can move up and down pretty dramatically. Either way, the price differences are not just matter of taxes - they're also matter of volumes, models and essentially what the company believes it can take. They take much more from Europeans (or they'll deliver to them much less for the same price - the same models reach much lower down market) than Americans.

isellhondas · June 2018

fintail said:
If they end up dealing with constant complaints, they might care. But that would take time, as would the volume of bad surveys needed to take any action, no doubt.

This is also the age of social media reviews, and a slew of yelp complaints might catch attention, too.

isellhondas said:

Do you think BMW would really care? And, if so, what could they do? As long as they move a high volume of cars (?) I doubt that BMW would care one twit! I guess I could be wrong?

I can tell you that in at least one part of our country, the local Honda Dealers have HORRIBLE surveys on Yelp and it's obvious that they don't care! all they care about is moving cars and they will pull whatever tricks are necessary. A lot of greedy customers don't care either! If there is a great store with excellent reviews some people would buy at the worst possible store in order to save 100.00! I have met and dealt with some of these people and I have ZERO respect for them!

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

I'm not sure BMW can do very much about it. Probably they would put on a face and say "We are shocked...SHOCKED...that such things are happening at one of our dealerships!"

Dealers are a franchise--they have certain rights, too. I wonder if prohibitions against such specific practices are written into the contract---I kind of doubt it.

dino001 · June 2018

isellhondas said:

fintail said:
If they end up dealing with constant complaints, they might care. But that would take time, as would the volume of bad surveys needed to take any action, no doubt.

This is also the age of social media reviews, and a slew of yelp complaints might catch attention, too.

isellhondas said:

Do you think BMW would really care? And, if so, what could they do? As long as they move a high volume of cars (?) I doubt that BMW would care one twit! I guess I could be wrong?

I can tell you that in at least one part of our country, the local Honda Dealers have HORRIBLE surveys on Yelp and it's obvious that they don't care! all they care about is moving cars and they will pull whatever tricks are necessary. A lot of greedy customers don't care either! If there is a great store with excellent reviews some people would buy at the worst possible store in order to save 100.00! I have met and dealt with some of these people and I have ZERO respect for them!

It's one thing to actually save 100 bucks, it's another to think you saved 100 bucks. Those bad stores will make you believe you did save, but will find a way to "recover" it and some. Unfortunately a lot of people focus on one metric and have hard time to follow more than three numbers at one time, making them vulnerable to "fungible" money. At least some will set a simple goal - $350 per month for 60 months, then they can still get it right. Unfortunately I know too many people will say something like I paid only "X" (which usually sounds great). Then you learn they had a trade worth 10 grand, which they didn't count toward the price, or they got a loan for 8 percent, or they bought a pack for 3 grand that has nothing real in it.

isellhondas · June 2018

All of the above are true.

Our store was in a high income area so we didn't get too many Credit Bandits but we did get some. We didn't get very many Payment Buyers either. As I've said many ties, I got lucky I chose the store I did!

dino001 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I'm not sure BMW can do very much about it. Probably they would put on a face and say "We are shocked...SHOCKED...that such things are happening at one of our dealerships!"

Dealers are a franchise--they have certain rights, too. I wonder if prohibitions against such specific practices are written into the contract---I kind of doubt it.

As we discussed - dealer pack is one thing, but taking the money and not even delivering on the that measily paint sealant is plain theft. It's no longer just a franchise contract issue - it's something for the district and state attorney to investigate.

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