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Comments
Denice
I have a few questions reguarding the Outback Limited. I see by the sales brochure that the Limited has 8 speakers, where are they located? Does it mean the Limited comes with the tweeter kit? How much headroom is lost due to the moon roof? I am really not happy about leather seats in a car, too hot in summer and too cold in winter. I know that in the winter the seats are heated but are there any Limited owners out there who have some creative,tired and true ideas for keeping the seats cool in the summer? How does the leather hold up to dogs and kids? I really want to go with a standard Outback but, I want the in glass antenna, seat back pockets, moon roof, and variable intermittent wipers. So unless Subaru changes a few things in 2001, Limited it is!
(I do not think I can go the extra money for the VDC, darn it!!!)
Both methods will keep your seats cool in the summer and warmer in the winter. Of course, the sheepskins look a lot classier than the utilitarian neoprene covers (which actually suits the Outback's "character" better).
Good Luck!
Drew
We should have seen the trend start when the 2.2l engine was dropped after '99. Now Autoweek is reporting that the 3.0l will be made standard in all Legacys for MY2002. In just 3 model years! I still say keep the 2.5l in an L model.
Hmm, what to call the Impreza? I say go ahead and use the WRX name. Save the 22B for a future torquier model, and the "Type" models for limited editions down the road.
-juice
Subaru just barely meets the standard, at exactly 27.5mpg (that IS the minimum, any less and you pay fines). That was for 99.
For 2000, the EPA estimates on some 2000 equivalent models went up slightly, but is that enough to offset the new H-6? They also dropped the 2.2l in the Legacy, which will hurt.
The bigger question is: how will they meet this and future more stringent standards? The 2.0l turbo may not be a volume model, though it should help a bit. When they drop the 2.2l altogether, will they work to make the 2.5l more efficient?
Finally, we have not seen the H-6's EPA ratings, but let's hope they're 20/25 or better.
Who failed? For cars: BMW, Ferrari, D/C, Lotus, Porsche, and Volvo. For trucks, GM, Land Rover, and VW.
But here's the wierd part, and one that I hinted at earlier. Isuzu's average for trucks is listed at 21.5, easily over the 20.7 minimum.
But look at the score, are they NUTS? What are they smoking? Try 16mpg, IF it's perfectly in tune! Even the very few 4 cylinder, 2WD models they sell likely don't average that.
-juice
The Ltd wagon has the tweeter kit as standard. The speaker location is the two tweeters on the A-pillars, four door speakers and two speakers on the C-pillars in the cargo area.
"I really want to go with a standard Outback but, I want the in glass antenna, seat back pockets, moon roof, and variable intermittent wipers."
There are no seatback pockets on the 00'Ltd wagon, this is a change made for 01'Ltd's.
"How does the leather hold up to dogs and kids?"
Leather is much easier to keep clean, especially w/dogs and kids vs. cloth/velour.
I've had my 00'Ltd wagon for 2 1/2 mos and love it. I'll probably keep until it's paid off (in 5 years) and then trade it in on the H6 OB Ltd. I chose the Ltd over the regular OB because I wanted all the bells and whistles (especially the sunroofs) that the Ltd offers. If I were to choose between the two in 01', there would be no contest....H6 power vs. H4! Hope this helps.
Stephen
Forester: Why does the Forester have to get bigger? For me, it is currently a perfect size. I thought I needed the extra space when we originally got a Legacy GT wagon, but I don't. The Forester can handle four people and stuff just fine. Anyway, 95% it's is just me, her and the dog. I now enjoy the fact that my car is not dragging its [non-permissible content removed] along behind. It sure makes for a nimble, quick, easy-parked vehicle. If we really need a bigger SUV-styled Sube, make a Grand Forester out of the (stretched?) Legacy platform, but don't lose the plot - the Forester is a gem because of its size and Impreza roots. A UK magazine called it an off-road hot-hatch estate (translation sport utility wagon coupe). This makes it a near-unique vehicle. The Forester should be developed as the new Impreza platform becomes available, and perhaps adding a light pressure 2.0 turbo as an option in the S (as in Europe/Japan).
(New) Impreza: Sedan and wagon 2.5l base with a bit more cargo room in the wagon. Keep the price down to give an entry level at about cnd$20, and go head-to-head with the Focus. Mid-price OBS retained with 2.5l and turbo versions. WRX in coupe (mirrors the WRC rally cars) and sedan (to allow those with kids to join the party).
Legacy: Drop the Brighton. Offer the 2.5l L sedan and wagon with all the expected power stuff at an entry level price (Subaru must sell something at or below cnd $25k or the Loyaleists will give up and go somewhere else). OB with 4 cyl, OB Limited with 6. GT sedan and wagon with choice of 6 cyl or 2.0 turbo from WRX.
That's it, JP (now with huge Forester bias)
Ross
Denice
I just compared the 00 Legacy wagon with the VW Passat 4Motion wagon (both AWD): 21/28 vs 17/24 MPG. 17 in the city? No thanks VW. (4Motion is too new for EPA Fuel Economy Guide, Oct 1999; instead, from Fuel Economy, choose Find and Compare Cars.)
Denice, thanks for providing the X chromosome viewpoint; hopefully we won't criticize you too badly here and you'll keep posting. We need someone to rein in the testosterone around here.
..Mike
..Mike
You're right, gas milage on the new H6s will be ower than the current H4. Power is one of those things that you kind of get used to. I used to drive a Toyota Camry before and I used to think the power was adequate. Now that I'm used to my Forester, I probably wouldn't want anything with with a lower power-weight ratio.
Your Legacy L does well with the H4 because it's a lighter vehicle than the Outbacks (and also because it's a stick). The heavier Outbacks were getting a little sluggish with the current H4s and were being 'outgunned' by other sports wagons.
Now if Subaru offered a turbo, that would probably help with the whole power and milage thing.
I do think the Brighton should be dropped. I have mixed feelings about the Legacy L. If the GT gets a more powerful version of the H-6, I'd say keep it.
I really think folks who are looking at "L level" vehicles, are buying Foester Ls. So, to me, the loss of the Legacy L is no big deal.
Bob
And I hope they keep the Legacy L in the lineup (ideally, with the H6 as an option). Otherwise, I'll probably never be able to afford to add a decent-sized, late-model Subaru sedan to my corral. Besides the fact that the acceleration could be a little better, my only gripe with the Legacy L was that it only has a dinky pass-through port instead of a split folding rear seat.
Turbos: not for me, thanks. Folks tend to forget that they need to feed turbomotors premium gas if they want any kind of decent operation. Sit down with your favorite number crunching device and figure out the miles per DOLLAR instead of the miles per gallon, and I suspect that some of the blush will come off the turbo rose. Not to mention the added complexity and stress a turbo imparts. A normally aspirated 6 sipping regular is just fine for me, thanks.
Cars moving upscale: that's where the markets are going. Subaru is a niche player, and as such has to go where its most profitable niche goes. I believe AWD is The Next Big Thing in the automotive world, and if I'm right there will be new players coming in at lower price points should Subaru decide to abandon them.
Cheers,
WDB
The premium for premium?
Let's very quickly run through a few numbers about why this is nuts.
Let's assume high mileage, say 25,000 per year,
and a high delta for premium over regular unleaded, say 30 cents per gallon. Let's also say that they've chosen a car that gets only a total of 20MPG.
That's 1250 gallons consumed and if the car uses premium, that's an additional $375 out of pocket versus regular.
More realistic numbers this time, say 15000 miles per annum, 25 MPG and 20 cents more for premium gas. Now we are only consuming 600 gallons and premium costs us $120 more to operate per year.
Impreza turbo is rated about 24/30 if my metric conversions are right. Yes it will get much worse gas mileage if you drive like me, but if you are more 'normal' premium isn't going to break the bank. Right now my RS is averaging 22MPG and it seems to have acquired a thirst for premium, but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.
-Colin
What will affect mileage? Well, there are more frictional losses in a 6 cylinder, simply due to greater surface area. Let's say a more efficient design can overcome that deficit. So far, it's even.
There is also 20% more displacement, though, so if it's geared similarly, a big if, it would be fair to guess a similar drop in EPA mileage (unless it's running more lean). So the current 22/27 would drop to about 18/22.
Now back to that IF. It'll probably be geared less agreesively, since the H-6 produces more torque even at 2200rpm that the 2.5l does at its peak. It also may not need to rev as high to do the same amount of work. That'll put it back at about 20/25mpg or so. That's my guess, anyway.
Oops, forgot to take added weight into account. Well, if my guess is high, that's why.
Grand Forester? My dream. Yes, please. No question, no doubt, I'd buy the first one. H6 and three rows of seats, and keep it under $30 grand.
Or a WRX wagon. I keep waffling.
-juice
However, real world fuel economy indicates that there is only about a 2-4 mpg difference between the two engines, despite the ML430 having a higher curb weight (by 90kg) and wider tires (by 20mm - 255 vs. 275).
With all of this in mind, I'm think that your figures of about 18/22 or 20/25 are probably about right. But, personally I'm guessing 19/24 or 19/23.
Drew
has a design that will last and last some
more. I know the car has been own the road
now for months and we've seen them day afer
day. But, I still can't breakaway from how
much I admire the design of this car.
Ford's Designer J Mays said that (Pinin) Farina
was his second most inspirational designer.
Perhaps this may explain my admiration since
there exist this influence.
I've seen this car change over the years, but
the more it's change's the more it stays the same.
That's it, Its the same kid, just growing up.
It will be around in 5 years,just maturing into
one of the worlds most sophisticated Wagons
and with it's younger brother (Forest) who will in time prove worthy for a entirely different call. None other than the strongest Son.
The H6 will be something,but for all zero year
Legacy Outbacks and L's Owners a place as
been reserved for this car in History.
Later Ya'll
BTW when I heard Subaru redesigned the Legacy for MY00, I just had to get one (ok, and my wife was ready to move out of her 91 L). For me, computer enginerd, "legacy" means this:
A computer system or application program which continues to be used because of the cost of replacing or redesigning it and often despite its poor competitiveness and compatibility with modern equivalents. The implication is that the system is large, monolithic and difficult to modify.
Programmers don't find legacy applications sexy; writing your own new code is more fun than maintaining someone's (probably) poorly-written, documentation-free, and hacked old code.
Combine that definition with a rollover to the aughts, and you get:
"Y2K Legacy" -- a wonderful overrefinement! Sign me up! And I did.
..Mike
..Mike
Maybe I'm just sucking on a sour grape because of my dear departed Peugeot; were it not for the turbo I'd probably still be driving it. Then again, were it *not* for the turbo I probably would never have bought it!
Yin/yang,
WDB
My .02 on power v. economy: Mea culpa for contributing to global warming and hastening the exhaustion of fossil fuel resources, but I've been driving underpowered and unsafe econoboxes for years when I could afford no better. Now I have a family. A loaded OBL is just too heavy for the H4. Now that I can finally afford a new car, I want to be able to pass and merge without having to plan it ten minutes in advance, and I want the increased options power gives me in traffic avoidance situations. I expect to pay more per mile, more on insurance, and more at the pump, for premium. As long as the operating cost increase over an H4 OB is not astronomical, I don't even bother with the calculations. The power-to-weight ratio of the H4 OBL is just unacceptable to me, but the H6 makes the car feasible. It's that simple.
2001 Outback VDC / LLBean H6 = 212HP, 210lb-ft, 3700lb. 17.5lb/HP, 17.6lb/lb-ft
2000 Outback GT = 165HP, 166lb-ft, 3440lb. 20.8lb/HP, 20.7lb/lb-ft
1999 (legacy) Outback 30AE Limited = 165HP, 166lb-ft, 3200lb. 19.4lb/HP, 19.3lb/lb-ft
The H6 will be better but too bad it gained so much weight.
Just for fun, since this is the future models topic:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS = 165hp, 166lb-ft, 2840lb. 17.2lb/hp, 17.1lb/lb-ft
2000 Impreza Turbo 2000 AWD (basically what we are expected to get in 2001 except RHD) = 218HP, 214lb-ft, 2717lb with UK bumpers-- figure 2800lb in US trim. 12.8lb/HP, 13.1lb/lb-ft
Mmm... less than a year now...
-Colin
Subaru has a great opportunity to grow its sales within its space if they can increase public awareness (want to have Subaru come to mind when people think of VW/Toyota/Honda etc) and critical mass (people SEEING the cars on the roads more, good press coverage). Both of these things are happening.
It is natural for Subaru to increase its range at both ends, in order to dip into new market spaces and provide an "upgrade path" for existing customers. I don't think it is losing focus, I think it is broadening its vision.
Frank
I would hope GM could help with the manufacturing of more Subarus (minus the UAW). I know GM has a lot of excess factory space, that Subaru could put to good use. Here in Maryland (Baltimore), GM assembles the Chevy Astro Van and GMC's sibling. There is great concern here that GM is going to stop producing those vehicles because of slow sales in the near future -- with no known vehicle replacement. Because it's a very old factory, in need of major upgrades, there's a very good chance the plant could be shut down, thus affecting (laying off) thousands of workers. Could this be an opportunity for GM and Subaru?
Bob
tex: the Sequoia is a truck and will be priced pretty high once it's equipped. The Highlander would compete with a Grand Forester, but I think there's room for car-based, 3 rows-of-seats SUVs. All current offerings are enormous trucks.
Subaru would be unique in offering car safety standards, full time AWD, and competitive pricing for a given level of equipment.
Frank: not yet. GM announced that its minivan platform will offer AWD, but it won't be Subaru's. The Aztec will have it first, then the Rendezvous, Montana, Venture, and Silhouette.
I was kind of surprised, but I think GM had already developed that AWD system beforehand.
Hmm, a revamp of the Baltimore factory would be nice. Make it state of the art, and move Forester and Grand Forester (OK, I'm an optimist) production here.
That way, we could plan a group visit and check out the assembly process (it's 45 minutes from where I live).
-juice
http://www.thejuiceman.homepage.com/directory.html
Then follow the link to Subaru Crew @ i Club. Check out that personalized plate! Also, look closely at the 2.5RS's on the i Club page, notice how many "i" logos are in the grilles? Most of them have it.
The last three pages in that directory are new, check 'em out.
-juice
You're right, they were very friendly and open to all kinds of Soobs. A few walked up to admire my Forester, and check out some of the aftermarket stuff I've done.
-juice
I want the gauge pack that is available as a dealer installed extra for $495 on the Forester.
The Subaru Press release for the ST-X mentions a gauge package with a face that only shows when the vehicle is turned on. Is this the same gauge pack(volts-oil temp and Vacuum) that is an extra on the Forester? I would rather have Oil pressure than vacuum.
Any Forester owners have this gauge pack. Where is it located on the ST-X.? The ST-X doesn't have a popup tray on the top center of the dash like the Forester. Is this pack available on the OB? Thanks for any response
Perhaps that's why I still don't have my password?
-juice
I wonder if anyone who saw the show truck recalls what the gauge pack consisted of and where it is located in the dash? Anyone heard when it will start production? Spring 2001?
Sgtjim
When you say 2002 for the Forester, you mean calendar year, right? It'll probably be model year 2003, since the 2001 is just out.
Thanks for the info, and keep us posted!
-juice
..Mike
I should have been more explicit. You are correct in assuming calendar year 2002 for the next Forester which in most likelihood will be a 2003 model (so I'm told).
As for the 2001 Forester S with premium pack, the vehicle is "hot". Quotes of 2 1/2% over invoice seem to be minimum dealers are willing to negotiate in the Chicagoland area. There is a "shortage" of cars on the lot and not that more available in the "pipeline" at this time for the dealers for the coming month. Outback LTDs are also becoming harder to find in quantity.
Don
Mike - thanks for those links, knew we could count on you.
-juice
My 2001 brochure has Specifications printed. Additional specs are included with the "News and Information" PR release. If you want any of the data, let me know!
Don
Meant to thank you, Don, for that great post earlier but I only had time to post the links. Good to have someone with connections to contribute info, rumors, article excerpts, or otherwise.
I have been told that Subaru are currently
building a plant in Japan to produce the H6 engine. There has been some talk of perhaps building additional plant in the U.S. but this cannot be verified at this time.
Hmm Don, you raise an interesting piont. Do you know if H-4 for Legacy/OB are built at the SIA plant or are they imported from Japan? Your statement implies engine and vehicle assembly are in different plants. Did I read too much into this?
..Mike
..Mike
He said in Indiana all the engines and transmissions arrive as units, presumably from Japan.
That's if I recall correctly. It's been almost a year.
-Colin
According to Cherry Hill customer service department, all Legacy H-4 engines are built state side. The H-6 we will see later this year will also be built state side. No information is available as to when we may see a manual trans for the H-6, let alone a GT with the six!
My source who told me of the plant to be built in Japan feels the demand for the H-6 will call for additional capacity which currently is not available in Indiana.
Don
Do
Don
-Colin