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Subaru Crew - Future Models

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  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Interesting. Thanks both of you for the feedback. I'd love to tour the SIA plant when my kids are a little bit older. Colin, that's not humility rearing it's ugly head, is it? j/k I enjoy your "frankness".

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • taxmanjefftaxmanjeff Member Posts: 14
    A couple of years ago AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE ran a piece on the then upcoming 2000 Legacy series. It contained a photo and an artist's rendering of a concept based on a stretched version of the new platform called the Exiga or Sportvan that was slated to go into production as a 2001 or so. The vehicle was a minivan / SUV hybrid with modular seating for seven and was powered by the coming flat 6. I also came across references to this proposed vehicle in the foreign automotive press.

    Anyway, since then I have not been able to find any further information on the Exiga / Sportvan. Has anyone else heard of it and Subaru's production plans for it? Seemingly it has been canceled.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Here's a link on that vehicle:

    http://www.irvinesubaru.com/tomorrow/exiga.htm

    Bob
  • taxmanjefftaxmanjeff Member Posts: 14
    Thanks for the info Bob.
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    Hey, that's pretty cool looking, and, for some folks who need to do serious people hauling, the third-row seating could be quite nice.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't hold your breath. That concept was to show the direction for the current Legacy.

    I would, however, like to see them build on the idea of 3 rows of seats, perhaps on a hybrid based on the Outback, but taller. Call it the Forester Plus or the Grand Forester.

    Note the cool, integrated seat belts, the swivel rear seats, and the raised roof that hints at the Outback.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Legacy and Outback wagons getting three seats down the road, perhaps as an option, much like a Volvo V70 or MB E320 wagon.

    I could also see a larger hybrid, about the size of an RX 300. But please don't call it a "Grand" (whatever). That word, along with the word "Limited" should be banished from automotive lexicon. They're both so overused, that any meaning is completely lost.

    Bob
  • taxmanjefftaxmanjeff Member Posts: 14
    Bob, I am familiar with the photo on the web site you posted. However there was another "Exiga" concept vehicle on the auto show circuit several years ago which looked completely different. While the photo you posted resembles a wagon, the vehicle I was referring to sort of resembled the new Mazda MPV except with four swing out doors. AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE ran auto show photos of it back in February 1997 as well as an artist's rendering of the proposed production version which was tentatively named "Sportvan" by Subaru. There was also a reference to this vehicle in a 1998 edition of CONSUMER REVIEW which stated that Subaru was in fact planning a 7 passenger SUV / minivan hybrid vehicle with modular seats, the flat 6 and a stability control system. If I can find a picture of what I'm talking about on the web I'll post it or the site it's at. Anyway all this is probably moot since it looks like Subaru has since put the cabash on any production plans it may have had for this thing.

    Jeff
  • taxmanjefftaxmanjeff Member Posts: 14
    I found a picture of the Exiga I was referring to. I'm having trouble posting the web site but if you feel like practicing your typing it's at: http://www.virtual-sho.../believable-concept-car-appearance.htm

    Or go into www.INFOSEEK.com and type in a search for SUBARU EXIGA SPORTVAN. The first or second link will take you there @ NEWS & REVIEWS.

    Jeff
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A lot has changed since then, though.

    After GM bought into Subaru, it'll be unlikely to see Subaru venture (pardon the pun) into minivan territory.

    But a hybrid with 3 rows, I can see. Once the Pontiac Aztec bombs (we know it will) they may give that mid $20s hybrid niche to Subaru to exploit.

    -juice

    PS Anyone else see the Legacy ads touting IIHS safety scores? They show the Malibu and say that the competition is banging their heads up against the wall. Has GM seen this yet?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jeff: good link. Too bad they didn't build it.

    The Streega came next, and the Forester was based on that concept.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru's Japanese web site has info on the new H-6. They have just introduced a new Lancaster (our Outback) with the H-6. Like ours, it's available only in automatic.

    The following is the link:

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/

    Please note, I had trouble loading a number of pages from this site. They just redesigned the site, and it must still have some cyber-bugs in it.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    Just took a look at the Subaru of Japan's website. The site is pretty slow, but I managed to get some of the highlights:

    Options:

    - Only the new Legacy Lancaster-6 gets the H6
    - The H6 is available only in AT (4-speed), but it comes with a low-range
    - VTD 4WD (similar to a Torsen differential) is standard with the Lancaster-6 and VDC is an option
    - Standard Momo steering wheel
    - Standard 6-speaker CD changer audio, optional McIntosh system
    - Standard ISO FIX child seat attachments, optional side air bags

    Stats:
    - Fuel milage 10.4 km/l (vs. 11.4 with the 2.5L SOHC)
    - Compression ratio: 10.7
    - Max Power 162kW(220ps)@6000RPM
    - Max Torque 289 N-m (29.5 kg-m)@4400RPM

    Here's a cool graph with the torque and HP curves for the H6 and H4 superimposed:

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/l_caster/img/lc_dr01p.gif

    Here's a cool split-schematic showing the H6 and H4 to demonstrate how the H6 is only 18mm longer:

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/l_caster/img/lc_en04p.gif
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So they get the H6 in the Legacy first, eh?

    Low range, momo,...man, they always get the good stuff.

    ISOFIX is the new child seat attachment standard. It's basically a metal bar that seats will clamp onto, eliminating the frustration with belts. Good to know Subaru is on the ball. This should trickle down to other models within a year.

    The compression ratio is higher than ours (10:1). No wonder premium is recommended (though not required).

    Oddly, the graph shows it makes less torque than the 2.5l until 3500 rpm or so.

    Mileage drops 8.7%. Lessee, it's 22/27 for the auto now, so that's about 20/25 mpg. Not bad, that's actually what my guess was!

    -juice
  • nvynvy Member Posts: 74
    I've notice that the wall thickness between
    pistons is reduced. Just out of curiosity
    will this effect the noise level of the new
    H6. Will we hear more engine growl or tapping?

    Does anyone know if this engine will run hotter
    than the H4 due to it's density being increased
    over the H4?

    Thanks for the Link Bob.


    Anyone?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think you're wrong about the low range with the H-6. They do offer the low range in the H-4, 5-speed manual Lancaster though.

    I was able to find the the "Spec" page where they listed all the various Lancasters, and if I'm not mistaken, the H-6 didn't offer the low range.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Overall, it seemed like the H6 VDC we'll be getting here this year is a Lancaster-6 with all the options (ie. VDC, Momo).

    I was also suprised to see that torque is lower than the 2.5L. I wonder how that would translate into the driving experience.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Oops! Bob, you're right. The dual range is offered only with the 5-speed in the the standard Lancaster. The 4EAT doesn't come with low-range:

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/l_caster/lc_data/feq_seid.htm

    juice -- On the engine spec page, both the H4 and H6 have premium fuel as "recommended". There's a note on the bottom that states that you can use regular but at the expense of performance.

    What then would be the effect of using premium in the US version H4?

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm assuming you're of Japanese ancestry and can read Japanese? Assuming I'm correct, you may be our "key link" to the Japanese web site in terms of translation. Is there anything there we're missing?

    I know that VDC, which we're just getting, has be available from day one on several of the high-performance Japanese-spec Legacys.

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    re#232,

    not at all, why would you think so?

    if you want a real world example, try the vw vr6. it innovated the close bore spacing that actually worked without overheating.

    -Colin
  • aling1aling1 Member Posts: 225
    Ken, shouldn't you be driving a Suzuki? ;-) Like you haven't heard that one a million times before.
  • nvynvy Member Posts: 74
    Just living and learning?

    Thanks for the post.

    Perhaps I'm relating larger W/ louder. That question was somewhat impulsive.

    OK, that answers my question "close bore spacing"
    Hmm...YOU FOLKS KNOW YOUR STUFF.

    All ears on this subject from now on!

    Later
  • nvynvy Member Posts: 74
    Just in case, that was my question not yours!
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob -- You guessed right. I'm Japanese-American and I'm fluent in Japanese. I normally keep an eye on the Subaru of Japan website for new info (see my previous posts) but this one sneaked by. I think it was updated quite recently. In any event, I'm happy to help translate all the cool stuff they keep bottled up over there.

    Drew -- Yeah, I get that comment all the time. Imagine if I bought a Grand Vitara or something. True story, but when I was growing up there were virtually no other Japanese-Americans in my home town of Brooklyn, let alone Suzukis. We would occasionally get phone calls from people asking if they could bring in their motorcycles for repair. Of course, they wouldn't believe us when we told them that it was a residential listing.
  • aling1aling1 Member Posts: 225
    Well, at least you bought something with a "Su" in the front, so I guess it's close enough :-). By any chance do you watch "Iron Chef" on the Food TV Network to listen to what they actually say in Japanese? :D

    On another note, I downloaded a fair number of racing video clips (of stock Japanese cars) from a Honda website a few months ago. I wish I could understand what the drivers are saying though (it's all in Japanese) because they get pretty excited at certain points. Oh, and I just recalled that they race a white Subaru WRX (I think) against about 5 or 6 other super cars on a race track. Guess who won? The Subaru, of course! It's too bad that I can't remember where I downloaded these clips from, because I'm sure that you guys would get a kick out of it.
  • aling1aling1 Member Posts: 225
    Here's the link: http://www.vtec.net/civic/typer/

    Download the video clips under the Tsukuba Challenge. I guarantee that any Subaru fan who watches these video clips will get a huge kick out of them. Also note the very fluid heel-toe accelerator and brake maneuvers that the drivers use.

    Enjoy!
    Drew
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    A 6 cylinder engine will of course generate more heat than a 4 cylinder engine, all things being equal; there are more friction surfaces rubbing, more valves opening and closing, more explosions in more combustion chambers. The question is not whether it will make more heat, but whether it will "run hotter". The answer to that lies in many areas such as engine design and materials, cooling system efficiency, radiator size, and so on. My '00 GT H4 has what is, in my Peugeot-tainted experience, one heck of a fine cooling system. The car comes to temperature very quickly and the gauge never EVER has gone over midpoint. What a difference from my Peugeots, 2 of which had a propensity for overheating, and one of which had what can only be called a woefully inadequate cooling system - not even an overflow tank! That the Subie does all this without an engine-driven fan is a wonder to me and high testament to their engineering prowess. Not having a fan also makes the car's engine whisper-quiet at idle, which brings me to the next point - noise.

    A 6 cylinder engine will make more noise than a 4 cylinder engine, all things being equal. See the paragraph above for reasons why. Modern, well designed and executed motors such as the H4 make darned little noise however, so my guess on the H6 is that darned little + a little more is going to = darned little still. As for the famous boxer grumble - I'm looking forward to it!

    Cheers,
    WDB
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    KenS: do they even offer the 2.5l in Japan? I though it was 2.0l and 2.0l Turbo, or is that for the Forester?

    That Suzuki story cracked me up.

    -juice

    PS I'll have to check out those clips when I get the chance
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Glad to hear you're willing to be our resident Japanese translator.

    Along that same thought, I've often wondered, when seeing anything in writen Japanese, as to why there is often "English" words/letterforms (and numbers) mixed in with the Japanese letterforms? Are there no direct Japanese translations? I'm especially interested as to why numbers are not shown in Japanese? I find it hard to believe that there are no Japanese number/letterforms. How do Japanese express mathematics in writing?

    I have (as I'm sure others have) been frustrated that the Japanese Subaru site is not offered in English, as well as Japanese. I know there is an "English version" that you can choose, but it is of Euro-spec Subarus, not Japanese Subarus.

    I have e-mailed SOA several times regarding this matter, in hopes that my message would get to the right parties. So far nothing has happened.

    I would think the Japanese web site offers a way to offer comments and suggestions. Is that something you can do? Would it require that your computer needs to be able to set Japanese letterforms, or can it be done in English?

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Drew -- Very cool videos! I downloaded the entire Tsukuba set and watched them. The vehicles in the race are (in order of finishing):

    Subaru WRX Impreza (twin turbo, of course)
    Honda Integra R
    Mitsubishi FTO Version R
    Honda Civic R
    Toyota Levin BZ-R (racing version of a Corolla)
    Honda Civic SiR
    Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IV

    Note that I got this off the very last clip.

    Based on the drivers' comments, I would guess that they all kind of know one another since many of the comments are pretty funny. The commentary seemed to focus on the Impreza and Civic R. Basically, the Impreza kicks the Civic R's butt on the straightaways -- the Civic R driver comments that he looses on the straightaways while he's waiting for VTEC to kick in.

    Let me know if there's any particular 'scene' you want translated.

    Ken
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    why there is often "English" words/letterforms (and numbers) mixed in with the Japanese letterforms? Are there no direct Japanese translations? I'm especially interested as to why numbers are not shown in Japanese?

    Well Bob, I don't know anything about Japanese so let me speculate ;) I'll WAG that it's a limitation of the website development software tool, which I'll call a webpage editor for brevity but not accuracy. Microsoft FrontPage is an example of a low-end webpage editor (not appropriate for the complexity of the FHI site, just using it for example). I don't know in which tool FHI developed the site.

    Many webpage editors are written by English-speaking programmers (USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, India). I'm guessing the webpage editor in which FHI wrote (developed) the site forces you to write the original copy in English, then translate it to other languages like Japanese, English, or whatever. On the FHI & Subaru sites, most of the English text is on menus or tables, whereas the Japanese text is in the "free form" areas containing "simple" copy (i.e., it's not used for navigating the site).

    It's possible that the author of the webpage editor is busy adding features instead of fleshing out the nuances of the translation functions (which ought to be done). I could be totally wrong but hey, I develop software. Developers are lazy (actually a good thing but I won't digress); developers are constantly pressured by the marketing folks, who are pressured by the, well, market. :)

    Drat, no Subaru content again!

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    For those of you who use MS Internet Explorer, you can download 'language packs' free from the MS Website that enable your browser to read text of other languages. It won't help 'translate' the Japanese, but it will at least get rid of the garbled text you normally get if you browser is set only for the Western Alphabet.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks for the lessons! They really were very helpful.

    It really amasses me SOJ has not done a direct English translation of their home site. Most companies that have a large international presence, offer two versions of their web sites: one for the native audience, and the other English. English is, after all, really "the" international language.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that make no sense at all... I remember years ago, one could get quite a chuckle out of reading owner's manuals from Japanese vehicles! I'm assuming today's owner's manuals have improved somewhat.

    Bob
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    You are of course correct Bob, but after thanking me I just have to poke some fun (and I am quite kidding.) I think FHI does offer two versions (well, even more) of their site:
    • JDM (Japan Domestic Market) [you know but others might not] site in Japanese
    • SoJ site in English for mostly North American models (because many think English = NA)
    • SoA, SoC, IM (UK), SoAU, etc. for models available in each respective country
    That being said, I agree with you SoJ ought to translate the site to English (might even be the push of a button!), and not just for enthusiasts.

    Ken, Interesting comment that it's considered more 'fashionable' to have English words peppered through product descriptions. Those fool marketing types again ;) I guess marketspeak is the only international language.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The WRX in first is expected, but the Evo last???

    So the Japan-spec Forester are the C/20 (2.0l), S/20 (2.0l), T/25 (2.5l VVT), and S/tb (2.0 turbo)? Do they give power ratings? Guess it would be metric, actually.

    Bob: I figures out the mystery! They don't WANT us to know they have variable valve timing and turbo models at home!

    Brazil is the same way. English words get thrown in all the time, especially in marketing. The top selling cigarrette is called "Hollywood" and it's pronounced oh-lee-UU-jee.

    -juice
  • beanboybeanboy Member Posts: 442
    Hmm, don't think the aftermarket is gonna like the H6... I thought the 2.5L was already borderline strength-wise when a supercharger or turbocharger was added. Of course, only about 0.25% of people care...

    Any word if the 2.5L is going to gain 10-13HP as mentioned in the auto mags a few months ago? Believe I read it in the caption for a Soobie show, not positive though...

    Finally, Subaru release any specs on the supercharged engine that have in the STX Brat Wanna-Be show vehicle?

    -beanboy
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There has been much speculating here as to the future direction that Subaru is moving. Is Subaru moving upmarket? Should Subaru move upmarket? If they move upmarket, what is going to happen to their original core customers?

    Well, having looked at the SOJ web site, here are some more observations: (Ken, I may need your help here)

    The home-market Legacy sedan is offered in three models: B-4, B-4 RS, and the range-topping twin turbo B-4 RSK. It appears that the base-level B-4 is much the same (content-wise) as our base Legacy GT. There doesn't appear to be a Legacy "L" level sedan sold in Japan. (Ken, am I right?)

    The Legacy Wagon in Japan is known as the Touring Wagon. They offer nine variations of this wagon. I can't speak to trim levels of the various Touring wagons, but I would assume there is a base-level choice among the nine models. (Ken -- HELP!)

    The Lancaster Wagon (our Outback) is offered in four different trim levels, topping out with the recently added H-6. The H-6 appears to be very similar to to our new H-6 VDC. (Ken, need your help with trim levels -- is there an entry-level Lancaster that matchs our base Outback?) If you include the the nine Legacy Touring Wagons, Subaru offers 13 Lagacy-based wagons for this tiny island's home market. Boy, talk about over-kill!

    Granted, Subaru's home market needs are different than ours, but perhaps an international marketing trend can be spotted here?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that Subaru, over the next five years plans to increase their sales 30%, and to double their profits. There is also news that Subaru and GM are teaming up to develop a (larger) SUV/wagon to be introduced in March of either 2003 or 2004. Juice, you may get your wish!

    Bob
  • luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    I received a Subaru magazine in the mail today from Subaru Canada. Has a page dedicated to the proposed Subaru pick-up/SUV combo, the STX. Cool options on this vehicle. Perhaps this is old hat for most, but the article says it will come with a "supercharged" four. Can anyone confirm?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Please! But keep GM out of the engineering room. Let's see, if the wife gets pregnant next summer (she plans WAY ahead), that means juice jr. in 2002. I could stretch it if I knew it would arrive in 2003, so PLEASE build it!

    The ST-X adds an Eaton supercharger to the 2.5l Phase II for 230hp. Sounds like fun! Hope they sell it like Toyota does with TRD, i.e. as a stand alone add on, dealer installed. Hey - you guys need a guinea pig? Anyone out there? Hello?

    Yeah, the 2.5l will probably creep up in power, though don't expect anything too dramatic. Should offset weight gain due to higher equipment levels, and then some.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I thought the 2.5L was already borderline
    strength-wise when a supercharger or turbocharger was added.


    You might check out the last few issues of Sport Compact Car's project Impreza RS. The long and short of it is that if you tune it properly and keep detonation at bay, the EJ25 is strong.

    -Colin
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Mega Rex! Three days, 1200 kilometres and a white STi four-door WRX. Read it and get fired up for 2001 or 2002, whenever it arrives in North America! (Apologies if Graham already posted this.)

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    I was on vacation for the last two weeks and didn't get to respond to your post #256 regarding various Legacy trims in Japan.

    No, there isn't a base Legacy sedan sold in Japan. Like you wrote, there are only three trims available (RS, RS Type B and RSK). The main differences between the three is the engine and AWD system.

    As for the Legacy Wagons, there are 9 different models with the TX being the most basic. The TX comes only with a 2.0L engine and has very few options. On the other end are the GTs with the dual stage turbos and "European tuned" suspension (Bilstein shocks).

    Finally, for the Lancaster wagons, there really isn't one that matches our base Outback. The standard Lancaster is the closest, but it comes with the 2.5L DOHC engine with variable valve timing.

    Hope this helps,

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The 2.5 engine (Lancaster) with variable valve timing, that is sold in Japan, does that engine come with a SOHC, or a DOHC? Also, do you know if it comes with a timing belt or a timing chain? Lastly, what is the horsepower of that engine?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bring it to the US!

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    The 2.5L engine in the Legacy Lancaster comes with DOHC. The stats are:

    Max Power: 123kW (165HP)@6000RPM
    Max Torque: 235N-m (173ft-lbs)@6000RPM
    Displacement: 2457cc
    Compression ratio: 10.7

    Unfortunately, I couldn't find any detailed info that would address timing belts or chain usage.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's funny that the VVT engine has the four cam design (SoA dropped it with the Phase II engine).

    I noticed it was tuned for extra torque.

    The ADA sounds a bit like the adaptive cruise control I believe Mercedes (?) offers.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I was curious about the timing belt (or chain?). As you know, the new H-6 has a timing chain, not a timing belt like other Subarus. I'm wondering if all future Subaru engines will be thusly equipped.

    Bob
  • abhidharmaabhidharma Member Posts: 93
    Sorry, but I can't get excited about a "safety" feature that takes the responsibility out of the driver's hands and encourages the driver to become even more passive in responding to road stimuli.

    Mind you, I feel the same way about Cruise Control.

    Just my $.02

    Randy
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