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Comments
The Outback is heavier, though, but still close to the V6 4Mo. The H6 should blow VW away.
I think the Torsen diffy leaks more power, so it's less efficient than Subaru's AWD systems are.
Patti said they have some H6 models at HQ they're probably testing. Can't wait.
-juice
Specificly:
Legacy/Outback
We all know about the LL Bean/VDC H-6 models. What about the rest of the lineup? I know these models were new in 2000, but can we expect some tweaking and fine-tuning of vehicle content for the 2001 MY?
For example: I was at the NY Auto Show and saw the new H-6 models. I noticed that they both now have a fold-down rear armrest, like that of the 2000 sedans. Can we expect to see that rear armrest appear on all Legacy/Outback 2001 wagons, as well?
Can we expect to see any power increases in the 2.5 H-4?
Will Subaru delete any models Legacy/Outback models for 2001? I've heard that the Brighton wagon may disappear. Will Subaru now have four Legacy-based Outbacks: Base, Limited, LL Bean & VDC? Or, will they delete the H-4 Limited, and perhaps offer the dual-moonroof and leather as options on the base model? Subaru has a tendency to offer too many models. In Japan they offer 9 Legacy wagons, and 5 Lancaster (Outback) models for a total of 13 different wagons. That's way too many models, and I think 4 Outbacks for the US market is too many also.
Impreza
My understanding is that the new model will arrive next winter as a 2002 model. If that's the case, can we expect zero changes for 2001, since it is a lame-duck model?
Forester
You mentioned 2005 as the date of the next make-over for the Forester. I've read newswires saying that GM and Subaru would be offering a new, larger SUV based on the Legacy in 2005. Are you saying that this new model in 2005 will be a Forester? I was under the impression that the new model would be an addition to lineup, not the revamped Forester. Am I assuming incorrectly? 2005 seems like a long way off for the current Forester to exist. I would think the increased competition would force an earlier revamp of that model.
Bob
Rear armrest sounds good. Subaru typically does toss in a few running changes each year.
I say drop the non-ABS Brigthon, the L is a better value anyway. Also, the Limited is a bit redundant. It does fill a price gap, though.
Let's give Patti a chance to double-check on the Forester ETA. 2003 sounds more likely, given the Impreza would have already been out for a year and a half, and the Forester is based on that.
-juice
I believe that the "problem" with the 4-motion Passats is that it is equipped with the same 2.8L 190hp V6 engine that can be found in the A4 and A6. In those cars (and with the auto tranny), it has always been an underachiever. At 2.8L, it is already smaller than many other engines out there on the market. The AWD system probably also saps some power from the engine, which already has to deal with the extra weight. Yes, Audi has the 2.7T, but not everyone wants a twin-turbo charged vehicle (we know the kinds of problems that turbos can caused when they're old).
Drew
1.) Is it a good idea to pre-order from a dealer? I spoke to one of our local Southern California dealers and they said that they are now taking orders for the LLBean and VDC H6 Outbacks. The down side is that they said they were not sure yet on the color options that will be available.
Rather than order one, I decided to get more info. Also, they said they planned on early October or late September???
2.) Can you get a fair price if you pre-order? Do they have you by the hook? When is price negotiated? Before you even take a looksy?
3.) Model preference? Sounds like the major differences are the VDC, stereo and interiors (one has LLBean styling, the other does not). Is the VDC model suppose to be like the GT in sports handling, while the LLBean is supposed to replace the Limited? Both have leather though...?
4.) Does anyone know the inside scoop on the pricing? I've heard around $28k to $30k.
Sorry for the length. I am excited about the new models and can't believe that I have the decision-makers approval already
Good Luck!
Drew
Actually TorSen differentials have zero slip because they are gears. By nature, any slippage equals lost torque.
Volkswagen AG also uses the haldex AWD system... without getting into overly technical details, it's actually somewhat similar to Subaru's automatic transmission system-- shaft speed and inertial sensors tell it where the traction should be and it uses a computer controlled multi-pack clutch to distribute power.
-Colin
Bob
Yes, the Haldex system is somewhat similar to the auto tranny Subaru AWD system in that it uses a multi-disc clutch setup. The Haldex system is even more similar to the Porsche 959 PSK AWD system. Based on what I've heard and read so far, the Haldex system performs just as well, or maybe even better than the Torsen-LSD system, and at a lower cost, less weight, and less complexity to boot!
Considering I have been driving around in an '89 Isuzu pickup that she hardly will ride in, I think that is what is motivating her. Not to mention that she will get the added advantage of driving it most. Since I commute by train, I will get the leased Nissan so that we can lower our mileage rate.
-Colin
The Haldex center differential is similar to Porsche 959's PSK system mentioned in the above, it is only smaller, simpler and cheaper thus making mass production feasible. The center differential is mounted near the rear axle and just in front of the rear differential.
They are immersed in oil bath to reduce friction. Actuation is made by hydraulic pressure. Normally the input and output shafts rotate with a speed difference (could be implemented by different final drive ratio), therefore the discs are rotating relative to each other. When no pressure is applied, the clutch is not engaged thus torque will not be transferred to the rear axle. Increase the pressure on the multiplate clutch, the latter will be partially engaged, thus sending torque to the rear axle. The more the clutch engages, the more torque transfers to the rear axle.
The computer determines how much torque to be sent to the rear wheels. Normally it is 50:50, but in tight corners when wheels on one of the axles is slipping, the driver can easily feel the torque transfering from to another axle. 100% of the torque can be sent to either axle.
Compared with 959's unit, Haldex's unit has 7 fewer discs in the clutch. This makes the Haldex unit more compact and cheaper. The downside is that it is not capable of handling as much torque. The 959's discs were organised as 6 pairs of independent clutches, each actuated by individual hydraulic actuator. The Haldex has just one actuator acting on all six discs, again, this saves weight and cost. However, I suspect it could vary the amount of torque split as precise as independent clutches.
I'll go out on a limb and predict the H6 will return about 20/25 even with it's extra 22hp and be at least a full second quicker.
We'll have to wait and see, though.
As for pre-ordering, the main issue I'd be concerned with is price. They haven't even announced what it'll cost yet, and you don't know if the dealer will mark up the first few (i.e. yours). Just don't let the sharks eat you.
-juice
Ross
If so, we're not too angry
Prices are right on target with early forecasts.
-juice
I went to the Subaru's US site and read about the SPT Line for the 2.5 RS. I was unable to open the file, but I was wandering a few things. Does SPT work with the future Impreza that everyone is talking about, or the model we see right now. The reason I am asking this is because I planned on buying a 2.5 RS this fall. I questioned buying it because of all of the rumors and pictures of the new turbo. Basically the SPT could alter my opinion on which car to buy or wait for. If someone already posted this, I apologize. Thanks.
Kyle
-juice
I just dont get it. Sometime its seems like things are introduced just to be different (the Aztek thread from a few posts back). I'm a little far removed from my college days but I would like to have some of what the higher ups were smoking/drinking/eating the day they OKed that thing. The simple question that the big brains seem to have missed is "Is it just different (looking, performing, anything) or better (of the same)?". I learned to ask myself that question when I was about 12 years old.
For example in their meeting they must have considered:
Aztek-
1) Bad gas mileage (even worse compared to small SUVs)
2) Poor performance (in its class even with the V6)
3) Not for off road but I dont know about road manners. I have not driven it and likely never will.
4) Much less room than an SUV/minivan
5) Reliable? Probably not very
6) My wifes cats have coughed up better looking things. Ooops that slipped out.
7) Costs a ton according to the MSRP. I predict they will be offering $3000-5000 rebates or 0% finance for 60 months at some point to get rid of them. Remember the Bonneville?
Summary: So its got all the pitfalls of an SUV with really no benefits (other than smaller) AND its BUTT UGLY at no extra cost.
Which still leaves me with the question of what they were thinking????? Different? Yup, its different. That it does have. Overpriced? Ugly? Weak? Yup. Yup. Yup.
They have the right idea with the Buick Rendesvous: 3 rows of seats, copy the RX300's styling. That'll sell, so at least they can use the factory capacity.
-juice
1) There have been several build and they are in the STi division currently under "testing". Rumor. Rumor. AND more Rumor.
2) Probably will never hit US streets but is likely to go production in Japan, UK and AUS.
3) The show version is rumored to have OVER 300bhp. Since their 2.5L F4 turbo can get close to that I suppose it may be true. BUT then again its only 2.5L....small.
On the Aztek thread...I would choose just about every minivan on the market over the Aztek JUST based on its looks. Then when you add in anemic performance, small size, and poor fuel economy.......I still dont get it. Perhaps someone here will be able to explain what market they were REALLY after. I see the words "active lifestyle" associated with it quite a bit in the all the hype. In theory, that would make somebody like me the primary target. Yet, I realize that not all cars/trucks appeal to all people....BUT who likes the Aztek? Don't they test market by showing pictures to their target audience? EVERYONE seems to have the same reaction to it. Similar to the nails on the chalkboard sound.
On the other hand, as you stated the other Buick (Rendevous) looks like a winner much like the Ford Escape. Give people what they want...not what YOU (Pontiac) think they want.
The active lifestyle marketing is all hype. We went to Rock State Park, and there wasn't a single XTerra in the lot. 3 other Soobs, besides our group, though, and some were rock climbing.
-juice
2.5L turbos aren't original. JUN and a few other tuners have been doing that for a while, and suspiciously (or not!) their bore and stroke is identical to the standard Subaru 2.5L like you and I have. No replacement for displacement.
-Colin
So there is the Ford lesson already learned. Then there is the reception the New Beetle enjoyed, which should have pointed the way at least toward a nostalgic look like, oh, say, the PT CRUISER!! Folks at DC were obviously wide awake while the General continued to snooze.
Never mind the success, albeit modest, of the Xterra. At least NDI went out and actually QUERIED their demographic before building the bloody thing.
Add it all up, and I'd say even I could have done a better job of product development, and I have no auto industry experience....say, Patti, ARE you hiring??
Want to bet on the Forester outselling the Aztec, anyone?
-juice
Stephen
Look at this photo.
I'm serious - this could traumatize small children.
-juice
Scroll down for STi Forester and a minivan.
Oh, wait, $23k? Never mind. Bring it over!
Hmm, that van looks suspiciously like a Forester. Only the A pillar, fender flares, and hood/grille differ.
-juice
PS I thought they were passing on the van and making a bigger SUW instead
Will Subaru be able to pull some of those buyers over? They pulled me over from VW/Audi/Volvo but I'm pretty easily moved by facts and figures. Currently Subaru is not mentioned in the same breath as the aforementioned brands but do you see it going that way? Will there come a time when you test drive a Volvo, BMW, and Subaru and lean toward the Subaru because it carries more prestige?
Stephen
(nematode) Good questions, my man! You're right as to why buy people buy Volvo/BMW/SAAB/Audi/MB: status (good and bad) certainly crossed my mind when I was test driving. I think Subaru has long marketing road to survey, dig, and pave before they are mentioned in the same breath as beau monde (not to mention the environmental permitting process -- sheesh!). Would be nice, though. Unfortunately prices would follow suit.
..Mike
..Mike
nematode -- I think a lot of people are wondering how upscale Subaru wants to go. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the VDC H6 as well as other 'high end' models already exist in Japan. They're simply bringing them over to the US.
While I agree that Subaru will have a challenge competing against other pedigree wagons on the "prestige" end, they'll do well in offering better features for a similar price. Take the H6 VDC for example. No other vehicle currently has a similar integrated vehicle dynamics program.
Also, competing in upscale markets where European makes traditionally rule is not something new. Take a look at Lexus and Infiniti. Sure, they probably don't have the same prestige as BMW or Benz, but they sure have gained a foothold in a once exclusive market.
Ken: Good points on Lexus and Infiniti. I recall Consumer Reports saying (not recently) that Lexus is now the benchmark of quality, not MB.
..Mike
..Mike
BUT I'm just thinking that rather than fight the current image which sells very well....write a new play instead of creating a new character. What they seem to be doing is fragmenting their current line. I really dont like that because it may mess up their "brand identity". So, keep the current line the way it is (evolving ofcourse) and essentially start a Lexus like company.
One could imagine how they could use the same basic platforms, assembly lines, and stuff like that but up the equipment, power, stretch them a little (like the A6) and keep the price in below or around the current favorites like.....Accord/TL, Maxima/I30, Camry/ES300, Passat/A4. Basically start hitting he sub $35 sedans first. While the segment is dog-eat-dog I'm pretty sure AWD, clever ADs, and more power would win over the fickle segment.
I guess I started thinking about this after I looked at the Lincoln LS (V6 5spd). The Lincoln that was recently introduced had 2 of the three (great ADs and good price BUT really lacks power even with the V8) and is selling pretty well so far. The main reason that I did not get serious about the car is the lack of power.
So you add AWD, 250hp, HID lamps, 6 speeds, and other go-fast goodies in a further refined Legacy GT Limited like car then bring it in at or under $35k and I think it could work. If it could be done I am willing to bet that even BMW may get nervous. Which is what I was getting at in my original post. What can Subaru, with a fancy new puppet name, do in the $30-60k market (Acura TL to Lexus LS400)? Could they rock the automotive world? I'd sure love to see. Anyway, its a nice exercise in thought on a slow day.
Thanks.
Don
My Dad's 1989 Merkur Scorpio STILL looks great and kicks butt, and it is just criminal that this car isn't selling like hotcakes here. But no, rather than launch a new brand ala Acura, FMC stuck it in Lincoln dealerships filled with blue hairs who shunned it. The target market wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln dealership==dead project 2.5 years after intro.
I agree that Soob should stay Soob and that there is a lot of potential for a new upmarket brand. I just don't know if FHI, even with GM's help, has the resources to mount such a project. I think they would have to design at least one new platform with variants for the project, and that is a couple three mil right there, never mind tooling, dealer network and training, ad campaigns, etc. But you right, Piech, Strempp, Nasser and the guys at PAG, and...uh....damn, who runs BMW? ANYWAY, they'd all be very upset after pondering the potential of such a move by FHI.
Now, how would GM like FHI moving in on Saab's market share?????
lots of food for thought, thanks. Nighty Night.
-Lucien
Now I'll fall asleep dreaming up names for the new company.. ;-)
Ok, g'night for real-
Luciano
Bob
Sorry to pick nits, but Volvo also offers AWD, BMW has the 330ix on the way, and Saab's AWD is coming soon. That segment is CROWDED, folks, and with proven, upscale names.
Remember "inexpensive and built to stay that way"? It would take a paradigm shift (can't believe I just used that buzz phrase) for Subaru to join those ranks.
Yes, Lexus was a hit. But Acura was only mildly successful, and Infiniti kind of bombed. Mazda's Amati division folded before it even joined the party! Now compare the deep pockets of those divisions with Subaru's 160k sales per year!
I'm not saying they can't do it, it's just that I'd rather see their R&D funds go into product, not the marketing of a hyped up image brand.
I say continue to offer a better product than the mass market vehicles, but at a good value, priced below the luxury ranks.
Where to expand, then? Keep the Impreza, Forester, and Legacy. Distinguish the Outback and Outback Sport even more, to give 5 distinct lines of cars. Then throw in the bigger SUW and a minivan, plus maybe a bigger SUV. All three of those could come off the same platform.
That's 8 lines of cars, enough to serve almost any niche.
I actually think that if GM does decide to go in that direction, they'll take an existing Soob and dress it up for sale as an Olds or something, maybe even GMC.
-juice
Ross
Two tiny suggestions: power to the driver's side window with ignition off - I have to lower window to enter parking, turn car off, turn ignition on, raise window, etc.; adjustable illumination on clock - invisible with sunglasses.
So far the Audi 2.7T is gettig close. 250bhp and about 7sec to 60.
Just think: Subaru GT Wagon 3L F6 Sequential Twin Turbo (first small and then huge), 350bhp, AWD, 6spd.....A proper soccer dad mobile that can also be used to make Corvette owners cry. Hehehehe. Any takers?
Ross, agreed Subaru shouldn't forget its roots. It needs entry-level (read: affordable) models (e.g., Legacy Brighton or L). If the 2.2l/2.5l manufacturing cost and engine efficiency (fuel consumption) deltas are low, I understand why SoA might drop the 2.2l in favor of the Phase II 2.5l H-4 and 3.0l H-6 (fewer engines to support in the field) . The 2.2l is plenty big for an entry-level Impreza/Forester (ditto for my ex-91 Legacy L w/5MT).
..Mike
..Mike
That thing moves. 0-60 almost as fast as the RS, and it handles extremely well.
-mike
nematode: you can get the H6, and add forced induction, and it'd be close. When you do, invite me over for a test drive, k?
VehiX is a niche vehicle. Strange to the masses, but that's the whole point.
-juice
The total comes out to nearly $36k including the car give or take $2k by my seat of the pants calculations. It may take more than one company to complete what I would want.
From people who know more than I, this car in thought would produce 220-240bhp with reasonable reliability.