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Comments
As for VDC being too expensive, when you are shopping in the 20's you are predominately looking for value/power. When shopping in the 30's, power/prestige/value, in the 40's it's prestige/power and beyond that it's just prestige.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Subaru can only garner a prestige perception if they are in that bracket to begin with. Hey, if it works for mundane cars like Volvo and Saab, who knows?
The H6 will not sell well until its selling below $30k. Still, I think it will move because some Passat 4-Motion buyers may come over. If as iscotts mentioned its just a tool to get into the $30k market then it will probably work. I think they will attract some Passat AWD buyers but will not attract any Acura, Lexus, Volvo, SAAB, or Audi buyers. To me that puts them in a very small market so perhaps limited supply was part of the plan to see if things work before they really get their feet wet. I really dont know.
For those who care:
McIntosh is known for all kinds of high end stereo components including speakers for home and auto. In my opnion their home speakers on par with, but not better than, Bose, Mirage, Polk, and perhaps some Advent stuff. I have only heard their car speakers one time as aftermarket in a 911 Carrera 4. They sounded fine but I was too busy driving the car to really listen to them. I dont get to dirve really fancy cars often so I was distracted. Their amplifiers have been reviewed very well and cost $$$$$$$$$$$ but I cant tell the difference. I think the the McIntosh system in the VDC could eventually be one of its selling points.
I dont agree. The A4 was a revolution not evolution. If you remember the 80/90 that became the A4/A6 it was night and day. I had the 80 (free) it was a piece of junk. The A4 play in a differnt league. I think the VDC was evolutionary. Subaru already makes good (great???) cars. They added more power, stabiity control, climate control, better stereo to the OB Ltd and raised the price $4000-5000.
From a Legacy GT owner,
WDB
Side point - at work we use an old (solid state, however), McIntosh 300W per channel stereo audio amplifer - probably from the 80s. It weighs just over 100lbs. Pretty amazing amplifier. I have never heard sound from it, but always am analyzing its output on oscilloscopes and signal analyzers (frequency spectrum analyzer). Its the only amplifier we have that can drive the big loads (<0.5 ohm) we need to drive without breaking a sweat.
-Howard
As much as I like my new Forester I should say that a few good things that my Subaru Loyale'92 had, were lost in Subaru Forester'01:
a) oil pressure and voltmeter gauges: much nicer to have a gauge than an idiot light!
b) you could not lock the door with ignition key inside (very nice feature for forgetful folks like me);
c) instrument panel had display of the gear you're currently in (no need to look down on the shifter);
d) display of doors ajar always showed which door(s) are not closed (now I have to run around checking)
e) back seats were more comfortable
f) cargo space was much bigger
g) lockable (from inside) gas lid
remember, the low-end Subaru car that cost under $10K had all these features back in 1992, how come high-end model of 2001 ($25K) does not?
Of course, Forester has a lot more safety equipment, and a better (hopefully) drivetrain, but still...
Hill-holder clutch
Dual-range transmission
Auto-up driver's front window... all very worthwhile and useful items!
Bob
"door unlocked light"
guages for oil pressure, volts, etc.
gear selector indicator on the dash,
headlight washers,
locking gas cap from inside
far more cumfy seats than the current models
Almost all these items are missing on the newer ones... Then again in '88 it was a $20k car, so that could have something to do with it.
-mike
I was saying that the A4 was a revolution too, but my point was different. I think that since Audi won a lot of new customers, or back some from the mid 80's, then if the VDC is a truly great car for the money then people will buy it even though it's 'only' a Subaru. My point was that Subaru has a reliable, safe reputation right now. That's better than Audi's unreliable, unsafe reputation before the A4 (thanks to the unintended acceleration fiasco-- a whole 'nother subject and a load of crap if I may say so).
-Colin
I pay so little attention to MSRP it's hardly worth arguing about. Retail is really a meaningless figure. Sure, the first-on-the-block set will pay it, but if it lasts more than a month I'd be shocked. The 2000 Outback sales prices dropped almost immediately.
Colin: I actually got my guesstimates from Automotive News, my favorite source. They were spot-on, as usual.
Can they sell at retail price? My guess is they won't even try for long. Knock about $3-4k off for real world prices, and yes I predict they will sell.
Be careful to compare apples-to-apples, though. Sure, a BMW 323i is cheaper, at about $27k. So get the Bimmer, right?
But a 330ix is more equivalent. I'll guess it'll start around $35k, but add leather ($1450), automatic ($1275), metallic paint ($475), moonroof ($1050), heated seats ($500), and the premium audio system ($675), and suddenly the $27k you though an equivalent Bimmer would cost you is actually $40,425. Plus luxury tax! Holy Cow!
OK, it's not a Bimmer. But the Legacy is a bigger car, and Bimmers sell near MSRP, while Soobs sell near invoice. So instead of asking if you'd pay $9000 for the VDC over the base Outback, ask yourself if you'd pay $10,500 for the equivalent Bimmer! And getting no extra equipment, just a name!
That's the angle, though. Look at it as a high value entry-luxury car.
BTW, FHI does not own Isuzu, it's just a partnership to build cars at SIA. GM owns part of both, so they're "cousins" at best.
The MD-X looks nice, but does not even offer traction control. It'll cost about $10 grand more in the real world, even with less equipment.
Lucien: it's interesting to look at the Passat Plus. I predict it will succeed, because the 4Motion models are a hit. Funny thing is they counter-punched Mercedes, since Benz hit their turf with their A-class and Smart cars. The A-Class sells, but brings no profits so Benz may retreat. That means VW gets the last laugh.
-juice
No love lost on the hideously ugly A-class, though.
Though the Smart roadsters are cute, and would make a nice 3rd commuter car. Price would be key, though.
But gimme a WRX for that
-juice
Drew
Since that time, it has changed ownership and has lost favour with every audiophile that I know, although its tuners are still desirable, especially the older ones.
Now, it still might put out credible equipment, but probably not much better than mainstream brands like Alpine, Bose, or Harmon-Kardon.
Another negative is in terms of name recognition: most audiophiles who know the McIntosh name don't care that much about car stereos, because audiophile sound can't be obtained in the car environment. People who care about car stereos (and I'm talking about caring in a BIG way) tend to be younger and into more bass-heavy music and sound reproduction, and don't know about McIntosh.
On the plus side, ANY car, with pretty much ANY half-decent quality equipment, will sound a lot better if the interior has been carefully analyzed regarding speaker placement and equipment (especially the amp/speaker) matching. Hopefully, McIntosh will do a bang up job in this regard.
My personal opinion is that the stereo will probably be a nice feature (because of design issues, not because of equipment), but doesn't warrant a specific model identity or ad campaign.
Randy
I wish I had my sources, but I'd almost bet $ that they are related in Japan on some level.
-mike
In my book, the mistique is still there for this type of american male.
Would they buy an OB? Dunno. Maybe if they also harbor a certain mid-century sense of thrift.
...All this is not to mention the audiophiles in Japan who will buy old Mac tube gear sight-unseen for outrageous prices... but that is another story.
As I see it, on paper and in real life, the advantage will have to go to the Subaru VDC. Of course real tests by perspective buyers and auto mags will be a better source of info. Can't wait to see.
Stephen
Anybody miss the old soobie wagons? Talk about ground clearance. Buddy of mine up at Darmouth had a turbo one loaded, digital dash, sunroof and dual-range. Thing would climb muddy roads with the best of them and refused to die. Funny how a 10 year-old soobie is better off-road than an Outback or Forester.
-Beanboy
http://subaruperformance.com/
Patti- what's the deal here??
Bob
Bob
Your numbers are the bumper-to-bumper warranty. What you are forgetting is the powertrain warranty, which IMO is the most important thing. (replace a bad power window motor versus an engine-- compare wallet.)
Subaru's powertrain warranty isn't bad, 5 years and 60k miles. Volkswagen's blows it away though, 10 years and 100k miles. Plus twice the rust warranty too, 12yrs versus 6.
saedave has a problem with this comparison though, or I'm behind the times. his dear passat 4motion was $32k for a sedan and we're talking about $32k wagon-- with obviously way more room, and more horsepower to boot. The passat wagon is ugly as sin. my question for dave is why he didn't buy an audi-- I would have if I were spending $32k.
-Colin
before "...or I'm behind the times" I need a sentence like "and there's no Passat wagon 4motion."
-Colin
Of course I will drive the H-6 in a year or so.
For those who said that Subaru couldn't attract an Audi owner I'm proof that that is not the case, but all wheel drive at a more reasonable price was the reason. I'm not sure that $32k is quite low enough. Perhaps the GM connection will help enough in parts purchasing to produce some H-6 models that are below $30k.
George
The Passat is a wonderful vehicle (I also love the styling...beautiful) but to insuate that it may be the overall better vehicle, especially on a Subaru forum will be met with a dearth of resistence. Being a proud, thoroughly reseach prone, new Soobie OB Ltd owner, I think that I made the more value added purchase. I see no reason why, when compared to the 4-motion Passat, the VDC OB won't continue in the same vein.
Stephen
George
Stephen
Drew: still don't like the A-class styling. Seems like a Euro mini-minivan. Popular in Brazil, though.
saedave: your Passat is nice, but it's also a bit slow and has higher real-world prices. It doesn't have all the equipment the VDC will have, either. It should have better NVH control than the previous generation Legacy, as the current Legacy easily bests the older Passat. EPA mileage figures have gone up, and dealers are independent anyway.
CR says the V6 Passat has 14% more problems than average, vs. 30% less than average for the Outback. 4Motion will only make that rating worse.
Like I said, the Passat is nice, but isn't is a little silly to claim victory over the VDC, especially considering you haven't driven it?
As for image, Subarus are "inexpensive and built to stay that way", but wasn't VW the "people's car" too?
For the record, I find both Passat wagon and sedan handsome. Also, the Forester has a full size spare, but I've never used it.
beanboy: yes, the vintage Soobs are great off road. Lots of lift kits available, too.
-juice
I hate the subie wagon dual moon roof things. The front where I spend 99.9% of the time, doesn't open. How else could this NYC driver flip people off out the roof?
-mike
since I got it from Autoweek, to which you
OBVIOUSLY subscribe ;-)"
Your fastpoll response was what I was referring to....
Cheers,
WDB
Hmm. A Legacy *coupe* could be a very interesting concept to explore, should Subaru desire to!
Cheers,
WDB
Ross
The C-class, CLK-class and S-class will all receive AWD as an option for MY2002. This means that with the exception of the SLK, SL and CL-class, the entire MB lineup will have 4-matic!! Not quite the 100% adoption rate of Subaru, but close enough.
Drew
lucien: you are VERY perceptive. I didn't realize you had already seen it. Funny thing is, I read over it and didn't notice it was my letter until later!
They even spelled my name correctly, which Drive failed to do.
-juice
Bob
http://www.drive.com.au/news/default.asp?section=news&page=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content/20000714/news/news3.html
You know what, if we get the real turbos, I probably wouldn't care if it looked like an Aztec.
OK, maybe not an Aztec, but still...
-juice
But here's the discussion. Some folks are pretty passionate about it, tell me what you all think:
http://www.impreza-rs.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/011190.html
-Colin
Pro: profile, fender bulges, C-pillar, hood w/functional scoop, overall look is nice and tight.
Con: wing is a bit over the top, round headlights will take getting used to, taillights straight from I30.
Overall, I wouldn't really call it controversial, though. Besides the headlights, it's basically a standard update from the current car.
But, what really matters is what they put under the hood!
-juice
http://www.new-impreza.com/latest.htm
I have to tell you, I sometimes get real upset when I read all the idiot's comments out there with their knee-jerk negative reactions about anything that's new or different. Yes, it looks "different" from the old Impreza -- what did you expect?
Obviously I like the styling. The tail lights could be better, but, from what I see here, it's far from "doom-'n-gloom."
You can bet your bottom dollar that it will be a "better" car than the one it replaces!
Bob
Yep, all the youngins (lol, I'm 24) did weigh in on the iclub with a lot of variations of "I hate it!"
-Colin
Bob
Base H6 Outback is $39,995 CDN (or 28500 USD)
VDC H6 Outback is $43,995 CDN (or 31425 USD)
They've started receiving H4 model 2001 OBs and Legacies already, but are not expecting the H6 for a little while.
-- ash
ash
I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself. I have no idea where this "ovoid" styling is coming from, but I don't like it. (only the headlights on the 'new impreza' pics bother me btw.) I like smooth, sweeping lines, not angular but not ovoid. C5 = good. Audi TT = bad. Focus ZX3 = very bad.
-Colin
$32K subaru doesn't = value
The new impreza will be whatever it looks like when it gets to the dealer, there aren't any official pics yet so let's not go speculating on something we can't change.
Personally I'm an all go, no show type person, it can look like crap but if it drives well....
-mike
Put it this way - it's nice enough that the looks certainly wouldn't keep me from wanting a WRX model!
Wow, Colin, you sure you're that age? The Focus is a major-league hit, especially among young folk. It's only the best selling car in the WORLD! I liked it from the first peek, except the interior's too quirky for me. Plus quality is a question (I've owned 2 Fords). And no AWD.
And the TT? Holy Cow! How individual tastes vary. The exterior took a while for me to warm up to, but the interior is awesome! It literally embarasses every competitor in its class. Heck, even the cup holders are exciting!
And this keeps coming up, but c'mon guys. How many people are actually going to pay the full $32 grand? The first on the block, that's all. The LTDs sell for at least $3k below list, so $28-29k is more like it if you can wait a few weeks.
And remember it comes LOADED. Leather, moonroof, AWD, H6, audio upgrades, side bags, stability control, the works. Those add usually $4-5 grand to most competitors. If you compare apples to apples, it has a $10k price advantage over most rivals - which to me equates to value.
Heck, at least compare the LL Bean to those competitors. It's a closer match with equipment, and still has many things standard that are options in other vehicles. With discounts, $25k would be a bargain, don't you agree?
An example is better. Take the $35,100 RX300 you mentioned. A bargain, right? Well, add roof rack, heated seats, CD changer, rear LSD, premium audio, Premium package for the leather, and a moonroof, and voila! You'll spend a whopping $41,794 and still not have traction or stability control, so it may be closer to the LL Bean.
Plus Subaru dealers will allow more haggle room. So, drum roll please...about $10 grand more than the VDC, and $14 grand more than a close-equivalent LL Bean.
-juice
-Colin