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Subaru Crew - Future Models
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Edmunds.miksmi == i Club.miksmi == Mike Smith
..Mike
-Colin
"The new Subaru high-output H6-3.0 features an aluminum crankcase, double-overhead camshafts and four valves per cylinder. A direct ignition system uses an individual ignition coil for each cylinder, eliminating the need for a distributor and sparkplug wires. The engine displaces 2,999 cubic centimeters (183 cubic inches) and produces 212 horsepower at 6,000 rpm and 210 lb.-ft. of peak torque at 4,400 rpm. By 2,200 rpm, the Subaru H6-3.0 engine is already producing a substantial 174 lb.-ft. of torque, providing quick response at lower speeds.
The H6-3.0 produces nearly 30 percent more horsepower and torque than the 165-horsepower
2.5-liter H-4 in the Outback Limited model, yet is only 20 millimeters (0.8-inch) longer than that four-cylinder engine. Like all Subaru models the new Outback H6-3.0 models run on regular fuel, but 91 octane is recommended for maximum performance."
Of the the two H-6s, I'm leaning towards the VDC model, rather than the LL Bean model.
Bob
Now, if they offered the VDC system on the L.L Bean, that would be a different situation altogether.
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/european/mbmc/m4608.html
A couple of turbos hanging off the 4-banger would do it, too .
Another GT fan,
WDB (hmmm -- maybe I should make that AWDB?)
Well, that would do it for me too, WDB Actually, I think I would prefer a turbocharged H-4 (like that in the WRX) to a NA (or even turbro) H-6 on a GT. Woops I forgot, they already make that it -- it's called the Legacy B4 RSK. I like power but I'm somewhat grounded with a desire for reasonably good fuel economy and I think the turbo H-4 of the WRX is a reasonable compromise. I realize I'm in the minority with this opinion.
Bob, I too am perplexed by the seemingly competitive LLB & VDC models. And I'm with Drew, VDC over LLB. Exciting news.
..Mike
..Mike
I think SOA should have put their energies into the Legacy GT line: then the Legacy name would become synonymous with continuing technological advances. The Legacy, with its lower stance, is also better suited to make the most of the 45/55 rear bias for enhanced performance driving feel.
And yeah, a turbo would be sweet!
Randy
I too would give the nod to the VDC model, since it sounds like the LLBean model is more into cosmetic upgrades. My guess is the folks here will pick the VDC, but the mass market will pick the LLBean for the name recognition.
The stock OB carries 21.2 lbs per horse, while the H6 carries 17.5 lbs per horse. Figure about the same 17% or so improvement in acceleration, maybe 2 seconds or so too 60 mph.
It won't be class leading acceleration, but it will be competitive. I'm surprised the torque peaks so high (4400rpm), but they say it produces 174 lb-ft at 2200rpm, or more than the 2.5l does at its peak (sweet!).
Hmm, no mpg stated. Maybe 20-25? Thankfully premium isn't mandatory.
Love that steering wheel. Though overall it feels so upscale the price will likely be higher than I was guessing (I think Colin was right on target there).
Though I did make the call on the Impreza: the 2.2l is gone. 2.5l and 2.0l turbos only, and 230hp is better than the 205hp that some mags predicted. That's sweet, even though it's not a full blown WRX, it ought to be enough for US roads, and a nice base for mods for I-Clubbers.
Hmm, a 6 speed next year? I'm salivating.
-juice
Though I'm sure SoA's number crunchers could prove me wrong. No doubt the Outback is their gem, and clearly they focused on their strongest model.
A Turbo GT would be sweet, and something I would consider buying (wagon, please). But keep in mind at that price level a 6-cylinder is almost mandatory. Smaller engined turbos get creamed in the marketplace, even when they are faster and more efficient that 6 (and 8!) cylinder competitors.
-juice
Drew
Premium isn't mandatory, but if you want to squeeze out that 212 hp and max torque, you'll have to pay for the more expensive stuff. I'd gladly pay the premium for more performance, even if gas is at its current high price (64.9 cents/litre of regular gas - NOT its highest price so far, BTW). I'm already doing so with my other cars, so it wouldn't be too unusual for me.
B6 with forced induction would be schweet. Even with only light boost, maybe 7-9 psi, would make a GT a stealthy sports sedan.
-juice
..Mike
PS - 45RandyClubs you took the words out of my mouth! Look at the VDC photo page 3 of the Outback H6-3.0 PDF and magnify it, say 125%. Note the badge below the left tail light:
Outback
H6-3.0
"H6" is clearly legible but I'm unsure about the next word; I think it's "-3.0" (which would mesh with text of the brochure). Bob, can you make out what it says with your fancy graphics programs? No mention of VDC in the badge (if my eyes aren't playing tricks).
So the official model names are:
Outback H6-3.0 L.L.Bean Edition
Outback H6-3.0 VDC
Not exactly catchy, at least to this enginerd.
..Mike
BTW, how many of you like the different design of the alloy wheels on the H6 wagons? I for one, despise them and would go out of my way just to get the dealership to swap those wheels with the standard wheels from a B4 Outback Limited. This is just all in my humble opinion, of course.
The Momo designed steering wheel is nice, but it seems exactly the same (except for the wood trim) as the regular steering wheel. I wonder what's "Momo" about it besides the name (which doesn't appear anywhere on the wheel).
Drew
I missed the badge on the front of the LL Bean. Upon further inspection of page 2 I notice (what looks like) an LL Bean badge between the front door and wheel well. On page 3 the VDC photo has something in the same spot. Don't know if the H-4 Outbacks have something there (like AWD).
..Mike
..Mike
WRT the wheels, I like the ones on the GT and the B4 Outbacks, but I absolutely love the ones on the Japanese & Australian market Legacys.
Now, regarding the L.L Bean edition, this is what the Subaru press release states:
"The Outback L.L.Bean Edition shares the interior comfort features of the Outback H6-3.0 VDC model, without the McIntosh Audio stereo system. The L.L.Bean Edition also adds an auto-dimming rearview mirror with integrated digital compass, an air filtration system and a standard security system. Exclusive identification and comfort features include two-tone beige/brown leather-trimmed seats embossed with the L.L.Bean insignia, an "L.L.Bean Edition" badge on each front fender, and floor mats embroidered with the L.L.Bean logo."
Interesting because the auto-dimming mirror, air filtration system and security system can all be added to the H6 VDC Outback. The extra badging and the two tone leather upholstery are only small things to me. I'm sure that I can create a "fake" L.L Bean model by buying the exterior badging :-)
Drew
I kinda like this one though--it's not too big, and it lets the intake manifold branches peek through and has that funky looking screen. Though there shouldn't be as many wires to cover with the direct ignition system(?)
BTW, I'm with everyone who doesn't like the new wheels--ugh. The 2000 wheels were already busier than I liked. The 98 wheels were just fine, and leave the gold at the anodizing shop.
I've been to a number of NY Autos Shows before... and I'm certainly not going to miss this one. My report will follow shortly thereafter.
I tend to agree with those who feel that their are two H-6 Outbacks because Subaru feels it can make more $$ that way. I still think they could have combined the VDC and LL Bean into one vehicle (although it might be a bit too pricey for the intended market). Sooner or later that engine will make it into other vehicles.
I'm also excited by the prospect of the new Impreza being marketed as the "sport" vehicle as opposed to the "entry-level" vehicle which had been it's previous role.
Bob
Drew
Garry
One more thing: the crowds were also huge. Just trying to get around and see vehicles was very tough -- not to mention trying to sit in vehicles. This was especially true around all the German brands. Those vehicles were almost impossible to see.
Anyway, on to the specifics:
Subaru: (you knew I'd start with this one)
Some surprises -- all good:
The new H-6 has a timing chain, and not a timing belt. No more belt changes at 60,000 miles Yes! They had a "cut-away" of the engine on display.
The front axle does NOT exit under the engine like I thought it would. It exits in the same old place, behind the engine.
The H-6 VDC model on display was a white pearl color. Very pretty. I believe Infiniti, Audi, and some other luxury brands have had a similar color for some time.
The badge in the grille and under the name Outback on the tailgate reads: " H6-3.0". On the front fender of the VDC it reads "VDC".
I picked up a brochure, which is the same as the PDF file which we all could download. It is an abbreviated brochure -- no colors, minimal features, etc.
The Subaru reps seem to think that the tow rating is unchanged from the current model (bad news for me!)
Both the LL Bean & the VDC had the same interior except the VDC has the MacIntosh audio system. Both had wood-toned trim on the console and dash. The LL Bean also had wood-tone trim on the power window switches. Both had map pockets on the back of the front seats, and a fold-down center armrest in the rear seat. I hope the map pockets and rear armrest make it into lesser Outbacks for 2001.
Prices (ballpark): $30K for LL Bean, a bit more for the VDC.
I was hoping for a 5-speed automatic, which is still not available. It's interesting to note that Subaru is now positioning these models against the Audi A4, Volvo Cross Country, and VW Passat 4-Motion -- all of which, have 5-speed automatics with tip-tronic capability. I guess they're counting on the extra HP of the Subaru to make up for that shortcoming.
Also, worth noting: There were no entry-level Subaru models on display. All were top-of-the-line versions of each model range. I'm wondering if the "L" (and Brighton) models will disappear from the Legacy lineup in the future. My earlier post (from the STi mailing list) indicated that the "L" may disappear from the Impreza lineup, with the RS 2.5 as being the base model. Only the Forester seems to be able to sell "L" models in any quantity.
The reps indicated that the H-6 models could arrive anywheres from late August - early October.
There was some mention that the H-6 might make it into the Forester at a later date.
OTHER MODELS:
2001 Rav4:
Very nice upgrade! And, in my opinion, very good looking. They got rid of those very uncomfortable door armrests, for a more conventional (and more comfortable) design. It still has a useless rear bumper.
2002 Highlander:
I swear, this vehicle looks like the offspring of an RX300 and a Forester. The styling is typically Toyota-bland, but should sell very well. It has a full-size spare tire, which is good. This vehicle could present the Forester (and Outback) some real competition in the sales department. It won't be on sale until next spring, so, Subaru has some time to prepare (upgrade!).
2001 Acura MDX:
Typical Honda/Acura bland styling. It's not bad looking, just bland. It has a 5-speed automatic (good), but no low range (bad). 235/65x17 tires standard. I don't know if it has a temp or full-size spare.
That's it for now. If anybody gets a chance to see the show, it's worth doing. Just bring a folding chair to rest. You'll need it at some point. If anybody has any specific questions regarding other new vehicles, I'll try to answer them as best I can.
Bob
Disappointment, in my opinion. I find the styling to be very awkward, and clumsy. No full-time 4WD available -- same unit as in Tundra. Split/removable 3rd seat is nice. Too bad they couldn't figure out some way to fold it into the floor like the Durango.
As far as I'm concerned, it broke little new ground in terms of engineering or features. However being a Toyota, I'm sure it will be reliable, powerful, and will sell like hotcakes.
2002 Q45
Best looking Infiniti sedan to date by far. It has everything but AWD.
2001 CRV Special Edition
Leather interior and some (very) minor cosmetic upgrades-- that's about it. Not worth the extra $$.
2002 Bravada
Better than model it replaces -- still doesn't do anything for me.
Pontiac Aztec
Many interesting features ruined by absolutely miserable styling. What was Pontiac thinking!?
Pontiac, can you say "Edsel"?
2001 Escape
Sure to be a success, as has been the Explorer. To me, this vehicle is exactly what the Forester should be from a size (actually wheelbase) standpoint. The body proportions are spot-on. Available 3.0 engine and 3500 pound towing capability -- which is what the Forester needs.
Dodge MaxxCab & GMC Terridine (sp?)
Great pickup concepts with many interesting features which I hope make it into production.
Back to Subaru:
No ST-X concept to be seen. The Soob folks thought it would steal some of the thunder from the new H-6 models.
Also, glad they're not using the word "Limited" in marketing the new H-6 models. That word is so over-used, that it means nothing anymore.
Bob
Chris
However, this is what I find rather interesting. Late model MB/BMW/Audi vehicles all have a flexible service system which means that the computers will monitor the oil quality, engine load, driving style, etc. and make recommendations as to when your next service is due.
It is because of this real-time system that service intervals can vary from about 10,000 kms to 18,000 kms. Currently, the FSS in my ML indicates that I have approximately another 13,000 kms to my next service. I did an unscheduled oil change (to Mobil 1 synthetic) at about 3800 kms and I'm now close to about 4600 kms. I switched to sythetic oil for piece of mind between the long service intervals. Part of my reasoning was because all BMW vehicles are also factory filled with fairly heavy viscosity BMW-spec synthetic oil (10W60??). BMW's switch to synthetic oil coincided with their introduction of the flexible service system. Strangely, new BMW M5 owners are reporting heavy oil consumption, but no such problems from AMG MB vehicle owners (all AMG high performance engines are factory filled with Mobil 1 0W40 synthetic).
Anyway, since the intervals are so spaced apart, these German vehicles likely to only have a few scheduled (free) services in their first 3 or 4 years. But, AFAIK, the Subies have no such flexible service system, meaning that Subaru will have to shell out more money since service intervals will be considerably shorter than that of the German vehicles. Then again, I'm sure that all of this was taken into the equation when pricing the L.L Bean model.
Drew
Wow Bob, great NY show report! Thanks for the Sube and non-Sube run-down. Hope I can make it next year w/you! No ST-X, bummer. ..Mike
..Mike
All the specs sound good. I wonder what the street prices will be like. If the MSRP is $30k, presumably they'll settle at or around $27k, though I'm sure it'll take a while for the initial demand to subside.
Did you get any photos? I'd be particularly intersted the in engine cut-away.
-juice
L.L Bean interior
B6 engine
Also, I just got an e-mail from Glenn (New Impreza web site), and he's pretty certain that the Legacy "L" and Brighton will be dropped. Whether it's 2001, or later, not sure. Also he was certain that the new Impreza would be offered in RS 2.5 sedan, wagon and Outback Sport. In addition the WRX will come in both sedan and wagon. He said there will not be a coupe. The base model for the Impreza will be the RS 2.5. He seems to have an inside track to future Soobs, especially the Impreza.
Bob
Bob
There is no hood scoop.
There is no monochromatic paint scheme.
There is no exiting of the front axle from under the engine.
I didn't expect two different models.
Bob
The engine does seem quite compact. It's very short, but wide, as is mandated by a boxer layout. Still, I'm sure the packaging under the hood would be quite tight.
I long time ago I owned a Mustang Ghia straight size, and there was enough room to sit inside the engine compartment. That was a good thing, because you were in there all the time!
-juice
PS Bob: I'll bet there'll be a monochromatic scheme on the GT/6 when it arrives, but hood scoops only on forced induction models
Neither vehicle had the hood open for view, but I'm sure Subaru did a neat packaging job.
I have mixed feelings about the wood/leather steering wheel. Yes, it looks beautiful, but I prefer a padded all-leather steering wheel from a function (and comfort) standpoint. This combining of wood and leather in the steering wheel seems to be the latest "rage/trend" for luxury car makers. It seems like everybody is doing it. I'm not convinced it's for the better.
Bob
By the way, the other "rumor" at the time was that they were also developing a new four cylinder with a shorter case as well.
-Colin
One added disadvantage (and this is somewhat of a safety issue) is that under some conditions, sunlight can reflect off the top of the steering wheel (specifically off of the shiny, good looking wood) and reflect into your eyes. When I drove a friend's rented Lincoln Navigator over a year ago, I was momentarily blinded (luckily it was on a straight highway) because of this.
Drew
Each of these may weigh little on their own, but as a group it adds up. C&D weighed an OB LTD at 3550 or so, so 3700 sounds about right.
On the other hand, some of these go along with the new engine.
Still, Bob's just being practical. I myself wouldn't mind a GT with the Boxer 6 w/VDC and the brakes, that's it. Keep the GT wheels even.
-juice
Re. WRX: Just passing on the word from Glenn, who seems to have a main line to key Soob folks in the know.
As to the extra weight, I can't help but think that the H-6 engine is heavier than the H-4. Maybe not the 200 or so pounds difference between it and a normal Outback Limited, but I would think 150 is not out of the question. The other extra weight is from other added content and reenforcement. The front brakes are indeed larger. I just compared the size (from my 2000 Outback brochure and my 2001 H-6 brochure). The size went from 10.7" to 11.4".
In any case, "any" extra weight hanging in front of the front axle is not good for handling.
As for prices... we'll just have to wait.
Bob
Subaru Canada Rally team's WRX:
Subaru Forester cutout:
Much larger versions (160+ and 200+ kb) versions of both of the Forester cutout pictures can be seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/aling_1/Forester_cutout_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/aling_1/Forester_cutout_2.jpg
A couple more pics to come later today. Enjoy!
Drew
Does the 4ETS system involve any additional heavy components or is it mainly just the ABS parts using different software? Anyone know where the weight's coming from?
Dan
Thanks for the great photos! I wish I could have seen the Forester cutouts in person. I like how they show off the shock towers -- pretty impressive.
The rep was nice enough to ask everyone to move back (over his P.A system) so that I could snap the pictures. I didn't even ask him to do that! I just brandished my camera and he stepped away immediately (this was between the "lectures"). I thought that that was very nice of him. Even the BMW folks didn't do anything like that. In fact, I found them rather snobby (it figures, doesn't it? ). Also, in order to minimise costs (I guess), they were only handing out full-line brochures. No individual model brochures. Even Daewoo and Kia were handing out individual model brochures, and we all know about the crappy cars that they make!! Kia even had several internet stations with flat screen LCD panels!
They only had one '01 Forester S there, so it was locked and mounted on an elevated display. However, the rep. did unlock it for me to sit in it though. There were a couple of other MY2K Foresters (S and an L) for everyone to sit in. I also picked the rep's brain about the AWD systems and he was actually pretty surprised that I knew so much about the Subaru AWD systems. Most people don't care about it, as long as it works and they don't get stuck in the snow
Were you able to get any more info on the new VDC system? I'm wondering if it will ever trickle down to the less expensive models.
Larger versions (500+ kb) can be seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/aling_1/Handout_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/aling_1/Handout_2.jpg
Drew
Hopefully, these details will trickle down as soon as the vehicles start arriving at dealerships. Considering that the system is probably cheaper and more efficient than the current Active AWD (90/10 or 50/50, both with the rear LSD), I'd imagine that it should trickle down to all Subarus in the near future. I guess they want to keep it exclusively for the H6 model for now.
Drew
P.S. Note the really trim curb weight of the Rally WRX