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Comments
Stepping off the soapbox, now.
jg
Bit
Personally, I feel that the reduced force airbags pose an acceptable risk of injury during deployment vs seatbelts only. Additionally, seatbelts are also not designed to be non-injury inducing in and of themselves. There are risks to receiving injuries from seatbelts as there are w/airbags. Both seatbelts and airbags are designed to prevent death, not non-life threatening injuries. In other words, they are not designed for one to walk away from a serious accident but to survive and recover from injuries suffered.
Pull the fuse on your airbags if you think it wise but it would be a shame not to have you posting here should you (God forbid) be killed from an accident in your Trooper, especially if the airbag in conjunction w/your seatbelt could have saved your life. That would be a senseless, useless, and foolish way to prove me right! Sorry for the preaching but someone had to do it.
Stephen
What's this I hear about heated seats? Should of splurged for the S! :-)
Ken
Yeah, yeah. Back then I set the price limit at $20k, though, and my L was $19.4k. And remember how picky I was about the chrome grille? Guess I could have just ordered a black grille from Darlene.
Of course with all my mods and accessories it's now cost me about $175,000. I could have had that Testarossa!
-juice
I had the fronts done at the last minute before we left. Even though the installer was very good and did an exceptional job on the rears, I think I pushed him to hurry on the fronts. While drying the passenger side he accidentally got the outside rubber seal (at bottom of window) too hot and it distorted a little. I got a new strip but am a little anxious about installing it. Need to remove inner door panel. Anyone done a door panel removal on a 00 OB or Legacy?
Bit
-mike
-mike
Correct, seat belts are key. Air bags are an SRS, i.e. *supplemental* restraint system.
I take a multi-vitamin supplement, but I still have to eat!
$70 is unreal. Where'd you go?
-juice
-mike
-mike
I would never buy a car without airbags.
By the way, how can anyone know that an airbag did "more harm than good", unless the deployment flat out killed 'em? I'd say a heat burn, a broken thumb, and maybe some bruises on my arms from the airbag is better than whacking my head against the steering wheel anyday. I need all of my remaining brain cells. I used to think that seat belts prevented head impact on the steering wheel, but after seeing some crash test videos (on cars w/o airbags), it appears they do not (though the Subies explosive-driven seatbelt pretensioners help significantly in keeping the occupant against the seat).
A glaring exception: in the Chrysler 300M tested by NHTSA (I think), the dummy's head hit the steering wheel (bad!), then the airbag deployed, slamming the dummy backwards (really bad!). Ouch!
It is my understanding that most airbags deploy when triggered by switches several inches behind the bumper (ie: well into the crumple zone). Most /all of them don't use accelerometers...is this true?
SO, has someone confirmed that the Forester wheel/ tire (215/60R16) combo fits in the Outback spare tire well (and has the same lug pattern)? With ski trips coming up, I think I'll want that almost-full-size spare. Does Darlene sell Forester single wheel/tires?
Someone mentioned tint lasting 3 or 4 years? I added tinting (20%, I think) to my old Volvo and after 10 years of being parked outside in the sunny SF Bay Area it had no bubbles, peeling, or fading (though, it looks very slightly purple when you look through it now). Wow, $70 sounds cheap though! I paid $230 for 7 windows...10 years ago!
Anybody have a hitch & hitch-mounted bike rack? I'm eyeballing the Saris BAT rack, or the Bauer Evolution to hold two bikes.
Dave C.
ps: that "Scribble" button is dangerous. I didn't know it meant "erase"!
-mike
And I'd been meaning to ask you about the wheels. Glad those fit. I believe I did express my concern over the tires fitting. 205/70s are mighty tall, try 205/55s and put snow tires on the stock 14" rims.
Hey, you could rebuild the suspension with Forester struts and lift it - that would be hilarious! Have you decided whether to rebuild or replace the air suspension?
Darlene sells everything Subaru makes. That includes Forester rims but not tires; I checked a while back.
Dave: I have the OE hitch ($200 or so) and the OE bike rack ($160 if I remember correctly), which holds two bikes. Homepage.com is having serious problems today, though.
-juice
And now... going to our "Down Under Correspondents:" How about Graham and Gus? Am I correct?
As to the lug pattern, my guess (and it's only a guess) is that they're interchangeable.
Bob
I have been rear-ended 3 times (not once found at fault, unsurprisingly) and never have I hit my head on the steering wheel. You might think that I haven't been hit hard enough-- nope. My '85 RX7 was hit by a LeBaron doing maybe 40MPH and pushed 2 feet under the bumper of a Ford Econoline van.
Seatbelts are highly, highly effective restraint systems. Airbags add only a little on top of that and add a lot of potential for loss of vehicle control IF they deploy in error. For example, if I strike a 40lb dog on the freeway doing 70MPH, obviously my life is not threatenedI can maintain control of the vehicle IF my hands are not blown from it by a deploying airbag. New ones are getting smarter, of course, but I have no problems with no airbags.
Now, if you get in a VERY serious accident I would agree that every little bit of help is a good thing. But let's be honest-- in those VERY serious accidents isn't it chassis design and physics that determines what happens? A pillow isn't going to do much when the car deforms around a bridge pillar at 60MPH, therefore I concentrate on my driving and always wear my seatbelt instead of worrying about if there are airbags installed and what kind they are.
-Colin
As for the fate of the XT6... So far it's $650 to get the parts to convert it to non-air, but I have to find out if the upper perches are there for the springs. Once I get the KYBs and upgraded springs I'm gonna get Kuhmons for the 15" forester rims for auto-xing/ track events.
-mike
I will recheck sizes as i alwats forget what size they are but they are excellent Yokohama Geolanders fitted as standard to Australian spec cars. Vey difficult to break traction with them.
Cheers
Graham
I'm curious to know which Geolandar the Australian OBs get. While you're looking at your tires, could you also find out the model number. In the US, there are two types of Geolandar H/Ts -- model G035 and Y816. The Forester S here gets the G035 and I really like them.
Ken
http://www.overboost.com/images/273/thumbs/dscn8829.jpg
http://www.overboost.com/images/273/thumbs/dscn8828.jpg
Here's the article:
http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=273
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
Patti
Again, not to be a wet blanket, but I do worry.
The Aussie Outback is fitted with Geolander G040 which is a slightly more aggressive tyre than conventional road rubber but very good on road. Traction off road (but not too far off) is very good.
It is bucketing down with a misting but heavy rain which seems to be sweeping through my carport at present. We are wondering whether it is time to launch the boat. Even the ducks are wading rather than flying. Somehow, I think I will pass on crawling around reading the tyre placard for tonight.
Cheers
Graham
Bob
Is demand exceeding supply?
Dennis
#1 - G Forces do not trigger airbags. There are a number of sensors in your engine compartment, and in the side of the vehicle if you have side air bags. These sensors are connected in a circuit. If the circuit is broken because of an intrusion/penetration of the engine compartment, the air bags are deployed. The circuit is color coded, so that a trained mechanic does not accidentally set off the air bags. The collision has to be bad enough to trigger a break in the SRS circuitry before the airbags are deployed. The basic owners manual explains what types of accidents will set off the manual. If you dropped the car from 10 feet (which is a lot of Gs), the airbags would not deploy unless your suspension failed to keep the SRS circuitry intact. Side air bags work the same way. If the sensor on the side of your car is triggered by an penetrating impact, it will deploy.
#2 - "Leather seating surface" is just that. Most auto manufacturers do not make a complete leather seat for autos. Why would you want to waste leather on the sides of the seats? Take a close look at your leather seats from the assembly line, you'll see that only the seating surface is actually leather. The sides are reinforced vinyl. If you look under certain lighting, you'll see a difference between the surfaces. That stuff on you door is not from a cow but is made of leather-like vinyl. I'm sure that some cars do use real leather throughout, but I don't think any of them sell for less than $40K(US). When you apply leather conditioner, apply it to your leather seating surfaces only! You're better off with a vinyl protectorant for the non-seating surfaces. The manufacturer's catalogs do say "leather seating surface", consumers should not make any more of it. They try to stay away as much as possible from saying "leather seats". It's quite possible that the after-market manufacturers make full leather seats, I've never investigated this since I don't have the interest in upgrading any interior presently.
The princess would have been much safer in my old Loyale: I always make sure everybody's buckled up.
Dennis
I've done some pretty serious turns at high speeds in the OB, and the only thing that has ever happened is the tires start to squeal and then slip. That's it. Otherwise the car feels damn solid on the ground.
ash
Auto industry for 20 years and have working knowledge of SRS systems. All manufacturers use accelerometer switches to set off the SRS systems.
Some manufacturers use single point systems that incorporate the sensor into the SRS ECU. Check out some factory service manuals and they will give descriptions on SRS operation
"No lab tests perfectly predict stability. To measure it under realistic conditions, IIHS calculated what proportion of single-vehicle, fatal crashes involved rollovers."
Taken in reverse, this implies that all fatal single-vehicle rollover crashes were caused by vehicle instability. I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion. If I drive a car over the edge of a mountain road and roll it 35 times, it doesn't indicate that the vehicle is unstable on the road, just that it obeys the laws of physics when driven off a mountain. If my car slides off an icy road into a ditch and rolls, it doesn't indicate that the vehicle is unstable on the road, it just verifies the fact that vehicles roll over in ditches.
When human interaction and environment are involved, you can't make conclusions about a car's stability just based on statistical occurence of crashes. Example: What if it turns out that crash-happy drunk drivers are drawn to Pontiac Aztecs (hey, it seemed like a good choice) and Aztec rollovers skyrocket (along with sales). Does it mean there is a stability problem with the Aztec? Not necessarily.
I think this "low-key" quote sums it up:
"'So a single-vehicle crash involving a rollover could indicate an unstable vehicle,' says Julie Rochman, spokeswoman for IIHS, a trade group supported by auto insurers."
Yes, it "could", but that is far from a conclusive correlation. That kind of hypothesis would get tossed out in any serious engineering analysis.
As an engineer, I would trust lab/track vehicle stability and dynamics data over real world accident statistics any day. The lab/track tests are designed to specifically evaluate and measure stability, independent of any other factors. If you want real-world stability data, then you would have to go out on the road with the right equipment to measure stability under realistic conditions. Using accident data does not qualify as the right equipment to me.
Craig
Interesting. The Aussie OBs are fitted with the G040 while the US spec Forester S gets the G035.
From the description you give, they sound like similar tires. The G035 is H speed rated (up to 130mph) and has a slighlty more aggressive tread pattern than conventional passenger car tires. I've found mine to be very good in rain, light snow and light-duty off roading.
Ken
Who makes the Geolanders or is that the name of the manufacturer?
Thanks,
Ron
-mike
-Frank P.
There are so many factors that can lead to vehicle rollover that it seems laughable to try to look at simplified raw data and decide if it was the vehicle's handling traits that were responsible.
I also agree with Tincup on the SRS issue, but I'll hold further comment.
-Colin
I'm new and sad. My wife and me have just bought our 2001 Outback last Saturday. But the dealer will not let us drive it home on Saturday because we didn't have full cover insurance (We have already pay and signed all paper works).
So we went and got ourselves some full cover insurance on Monday and went back to the dealer to pick up our Outback. When we were checking over the car, we notice that the odometer has 8 miles more than what it was when we have just finish the test drive. So we ask where does the added 8 miles come form.
The sales manager said they take it out for a test to make sure everything is ok.
And my wife said that can't be, your were ready to gave us the car on Saturday night with out any test, why would you need to test it for the second pick up.
And then he said maybe they take it for gases fill up.
And I said that can't be eight, there is a gas station on the corner why would your need to drive 8 miles just to get gas and the gas tank was full when we test drive it.
Then he said maybe they take it to storage.
So I ask him where is this 8 miles far storage at and he couldn't answer me
Then he said I read it wrong (the odometer), or the sale guy wrote is wrong, or he wrote is down before the test drive, and it just 8 miles, and so on.
I am very mad about this treatment from the Subaru dealer (Jack Miller). First they won't let us drive it home (That is fine with us). But when we were ready to pick it up it has an extra 8 miles on it, and when ask about the extra 8 miles all we get was lying after lying and then was told it's just 8 miles. You know guys it's not about the 8 miles, it how they treated us when ask about the extra 8 miles.
Guys, Patti, I need your help here, I want to get back at the dealer (Jack Miller).
Patti, does Subaru dealer represent Subaru? How can they treat us (Subaru Customer) like that.
Thanks,
Ray
P.S. sorry for the long and sad first post
-mike
Good luck with the Crew topics! BTW, are you one of the crew chiefs? :-)
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
-mike
Now....as you've no doubt already figured out, your dealer most likely let someone else test drive your car over the weekend. This was probably an honest mistake on the part of a salesman who didn't realize that the car had been sold (it's unusual for a sold car to still be on the lot). Of course there is no excuse as to why they didn't just own up to their mistake. However, I'm not sure if you have any legal recourse, especially if you've taken delivery already.
You can and should call SOA and complain about your dealer's lack of integrity. Also, a good way to get back at the dealer would be to nuke them on the new vehicle customer satisfaction survey which should come in the mail.
-Frank P.
I'm now too mad to enjor our new Outback
Ray