To everybody for your prayers and support, this news has to rank up there with every parents worst nightmare, she has to have shots for anthrax and smallpox and if I recall a large percentage of the soldiers that had anthrax shots had severe reactions.
I also ehco what a lot of the crew have already said if you go back down the years the US has been in bed with some of the worst scumbags the world has known, Osama Bin Ladin being one and Manuel Noriego was another.
More recent look who is calling the shots in Afganistan right now, anybody willing to bet that he is going to be a major headache somewhere down the line.
I'm also going to join in with the Crew members that are hoping for your daughter's safety. I've been watching the news coverage on families with members that are being sent to the Gulf. Your story hits the closest to home for me.
Brian- I read an interesting quote the other day attributed to France's Prime Minister (or equivalent) during WW-I: "If you want to do something, do it. If you only want to talk about it, form a committee."
While France, Germany and Russia can certainly question the US's motives for wanting to go to war with Iraq, the US can just as easily question their motives for not wanting a war.
Point taken. I'm all for action, where action is justified. But that's the rub, isn't it ? If you lead and no one follows, you're just out for a walk.
Let's assume for a moment that action is justified. The way our leadership has gone out of its way to thumb its nose at the rest of world, beginning in the early weeks of their administration (Kyoto, ABM, etc, etc), is hardly conducive to coalition building. Remember when they went on to loudly declare that they didn't need UN approval for war, and didn't need Congress' approval either. Remember ? Only after the polls showed weak support for war without international support did they grudgingly accept the need to try inspections. That wasn't lost on the world at large.
We don't live on an island, and our actions don't occur in a vacuum. What the rest of the world thinks does matter. My greatest concern is for the months and years after we win the war. By conducting this war in the absence of international support, we fuel the flames of anti-Americanism everywhere, particularly in the Middle East. Irrespective of whether the charges are true, we leave the strong impression that we really are a bunch of imperialists bent on oil and world domination. Perception is reality, in this case.
Does anyone outside of the administration really believe that waging war in Iraq will lay the foundations for peaceful, Western-style democracies in the Middle East? Moderate leaders in the Middle East certainly don't. The Europeans certainly don't. The Turks certainly don't. What do they know that we don't know ?
We're going to make an example of Iraq, and the bad guys will cower in terror before us ? Not likely. The bad guys are just as convinced that God is on their side as we are. They will react with the same righteous indignation and determination. In the absence of international sanction, we're simply the biggest bullies on the block, throwing our weight around and copping an attitude about it besides.
I don't doubt that we will win this war. I can see that the war might be justified - the jury's still out on that, IMO. But we have completely destroyed the ability for any moderate voices in the Middle East and elsewhere to support our actions - and have multiplied by many times the long-term costs of the war, to ourselves, the people of the Middle East, and to the world at large.
Even if we're doing the "right thing", we're doing it very much the "wrong way".
With all due respect to those who disagree with me,
bad things can, and honestly probably will, happen if the war drags on. the US' strategy keys on it being over quickly and decisively. now my question is that if saddam goes into hiding, how are you going to find him? if a new regime is installed while he's hiding, how stable with that be? (think about the infighting in Afghanistan.)
I just see too many contingencies on a quick, decisive win. the Iraqis are already surrendering, but I'm still concerned about resistance in cities and how to put a government in place that will stand.
but I do agree with Bob that force is needed. I'd just feel a lot better about it if I were confident it was as easy as they make it out to be.
oh and Ken, Juice-- surely a triathalon is in there. marathon plus swimming and biking... yikes!
A war based on a personal vendetta and the desire to snap up cheap oil for his financial backers is obscene. That he is willing to let the genie out the bottle that has been contained since 1945 shows the utterances of a madman, moron or both. For soldiers and civilians to die to hide a failed economic policy, to hide the rape of the environment and the suspension of the constitution is totally immoral. Has no one in the country read George Orwell's 1984? "War is Peace,, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength". By keeping the country at perpetual war the the population ignored the repression of Big Brother and fixated only on patriotism. Will we tell ourselves that the world is safer when the North Koreans invade South Korea, the Indians and Pakistanis no longer feel constrained to avoid use of the bomb and our hated occupation troops remain in Iraq five years from now wishing they instead could be the peacekeepers in Kosovo, Bosnia, Afganistan or any of the few dozen countries we have occupied to convince them of the benefits of western democracy? (hanging chad Supreme Court elections) Did we not learn the lesson of Vietnam?
Paranoid illusions aside, our current situation has real potential to be a no-win situation. We can attack Iraq with the goals of toppling a despot dictator, liberating his people and destroying his WMD, thereby making the world safer for everyone. However, as Colin pointed out, things don't always turn out the way you expect and we will, in all probability, have to deal with the long-term consequences of international ill will that Brian pointed out. On the other hand, if we listen to the peace at all cost movement, where does that leave us if a terrorist detonates a dirty bomb (traceable to Iraq) in NYC? Could you sleep at night knowing that you didn’t do everything in your power to prevent hundreds of thousands of deaths? Also, it’s easier for other countries to stay on the sidelines and take a wait and see attitude because they aren’t the number one target for anyone with an axe to grind.
I'm not in favor of war either but I've yet to hear a viable alternative. Are we just supposed to mind our own business and hope for the best? War may not be the answer but neither is ignorance.
In 1945 we didn't have the Internet, cell phones, and the information monster—television. It is a vastly different world today than it was 58 years ago, for better or for worse.
As I said earlier, we won't be able to contain terrorism unless we take a very proactive stance against it.
Ken: I don't recall the entire list, but some others inlcuded:
* stopping a soccer penalty kick * returning a tennis serve * hitting a fast ball
When I saw running a marathon made the list, I immediately thought of you psycological battle to finish the race. I get tired driving 26 miles! :-)
The list was the 10 toughest things to do, I think a triathlon would be considered 3 seperate things.
Although Ernest Hemingway said that the only 3 true sports are rock climbing, bull fighting, and automobile racing. The rest are kids' games played by men.
for some very well stated, yet civil arguments. I think we all agree that he is a very bad, very dangerous man (in this case i'm talking about Saddam, not George W.) ;-) While part of me wants to get this over with quickly, I am reminded about this concept known as international law. Some of what we are proposing, and doing, makes us look very much like the rouge state. Finding a balance is indeed difficult!
Dennis: In a previous search on the DigiTraveler (Radio Shack) I did come across someone who was fabricating his own proprietary to USB style cable. I was hoping that someone would report their experience with it before risking blowing up Beths new, most prized possession!
I am not a pacifist, although I respect their views, just as I respect the views of those who hold a faith different from my own. I believe that there is such a thing as a justifiable war - WWII comes to mind - but it is a VERY short list.
As to illusions, did anyone see Nightline last night ? They had a group called the "Project for the New American Century", who plainly stated that they have been planning and advocating for a war in Iraq since well before Bush took office. Their members include Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld, along with 7 other highly ranked officials in the Bush Administration.
I'll have to study the show's transcript and research this group more thoroughly, but they apparently believe that we should impose our way of doing things on the world at large - by force. Furthermore, they are quite prepared to toss overboard any principles of international relations that get in their way. They dropped strong hints that Iraq should be used as a staging base for attacking other nations in the Middle East that are not to our liking. Our relations with Saudi Arabia "should be reviewed" - in the context that statement carried far more weight than some academic policy adjustment.
One of the reasons that the rest of the world is resisting the US "initiative", is that we intend to make a massive, unprovoked, pre-emptive attack against a sovereign nation for the purposes of overthrowing its government. Although some would disagree with me, I do not believe that we have linked Iraq to 9/11, despite 2 years of intensive intelligence effort. At least I have yet to see compelling evidence - based on fact as opposed to conjecture, suspicion and paranoia. The only link between the two that Colin Powell offered to the UN was the alleged presence of Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq. Even if there are Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq, that doesn't mean that Saddam is supporting them. There are Al-Qaeda operatives in Canada, Great Britain and the US as well.
Saddam is not a nice fellow and bent on acquiring very dangerous weapons. So we attack Iraq and overthrow Saddam. The world is full of Saddams - many of these despots owe their positions to us. Where does it stop ? How many countries are we prepared to invade ? How long do we think the world at large will stand for this ? How can this policy be reconciled with American ideals and traditions ? It's no wonder the world at large is up in arms !
North Korea offers an interesting lesson to all the bad guys out there: if you don't have an A-bomb yet, get one post haste or else. What will we do if North Korea decides to make a pre-emptive strike against South Korea?
The civil implications of this administration's policies are just as troubling, if not more so. The Patriot Act gives the government the right to force book stores and libraries to reveal your reading habits - under a gag order, so that store clerks and librarians may not reveal under criminal penalties who the FBI is spying on to anyone, including their own family members. John Ashcroft's Justice Department has taken the official position that our government may unilaterally declare any person, US citizen or foreign national, here or abroad, an "enemy combatant", then suspend habeas corpus, deny the accused access to the legal system, and hold them indefinately in solitary confinement. They've proposed TIPS - systematic spying by Americans on Americans, ala East Germany at the height of the Honecker regime. Fact, not illusion.
By all accounts, Jose Pedilla, an "enemy combatant", is not a nice fellow. I wouldn't want to live next to him. I wouldn't want my son to consider him a friend. But he is an American citizen, born and raised in Chicago. He has the right to a trial by jury. Period. The government must be made to present their case against him, follow evidentiary rules, and allow him to defend himself. Period. This is the rule of law - the system of checks and balances that preserves our freedom. What John Ashcroft has proposed and instituted is rule by decree. It is un-American. It is wrong. It is not what our armed forces are going into battle to defend. It contradicts everything this country stands for. Our Founding Fathers must be writhing in their graves.
You can lose your freedom in many places. Freedom must be defended on the battlefield, yes, but also before the courts, in the legislatures, in the executive mansions, in corporate boardrooms, and in the voting booth. You can lose your freedom in any of these places.
Paranoid illusions? "It won't happen to me?" History, recent history, is full of people, millions of people, who lost their lives believing it couldn't happen to them. We are not immune.
Peace at all costs? No, thank you. Defend the country forcefully? Certainly. Abandon American ideals and traditions, undermine democratic institutions, suspend the rule of law, pre-emptively attack other nations at will without international sanction ? Certainly not!
Those are some tough sport examples -- especially hitting a golf ball consistently in a straight line. I have buckets of lost balls to prove that fact.
Yes, a triathalon -- especially the full Ironman ones -- are amazing. How about ultramarathons?
juice -- On the morning of our race, we boarded buses at the finish line to drive us up 26.2 miles to the start. I remember thinking "Man, I've got to run all this back?".
"... the Subaru WRX STi is essentially a street-legal rally car, with 300 hp, race-car handling, and all-wheel drive. Better handling not only makes a sedan more fun to drive, but typically adds to its safety by improving its accident-avoidance capabilities."
Sounds like CR has been listening to Subaru's ads. Pretty funny to see the STi mentioned in a periodical like CR.
Appreciated your text. I'm afraid I can be a bit out of control with what I say or type at times. I like the way you laid out the threat to our freedom from the present administration. Very well written and spot on. TWRX
Thanks. Emotions run high, and in a way, that's a good thing. It shows people really care.
It's hard to stay balanced and centered. Trouble is, these issues are so complicated, it's impossible to say anything meaningful and balanced without writing a novel.
Watching Nightline last night, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I have spent some time verifying the gist of their story today. To their credit, these "project" people state that their position should be debated.
The only difference between a justified war and an unjustified one is the reason you went to war.
If this is really about some bizarre "America will save the world crusade", fueled by paranoia, arrogance, self-righteousness and fundamentalism, I'm out. Way out.
And the civil liberties thing scares the h*ll out of me, frankly. I spent a month in East Germany in 1982 on a student exchange. I have experienced a police state first hand. It's a chilling experience, you really can't imagine. We're not there yet, but the signs are all pointing in the wrong direction.
Not sure yet if I'll be in chat tonight or not .... hope so ... I LOVE surprises !!!
Interesting to read you guys in here on the 'war' on Iraq ... I'm still formulating my opinion of it all but I do appreciate the way you guys can intelligently state a position while not just emotionally running all over each other ... a rare thing in today's world and something we should value as Americans ...
Sorry you couldn't get into chat, Patti. You've been missed by many.
It would've helped the mood - war and talk of war dominating the chat. Instead of watching the President I watched Rally Turkey on Speed Channel. You all have bought a lot of ad time on there - I must've seen the WRX "All-Wheel Driveaway" ad at least a dozen times!
Wild, wild chat, eh? Sorry 'bout that teaser, though it worked at getting solid attendance.
The surprise was...
Patti underwent surgery to alter her appearance and penetrate Iraq as a spy for the CIA. BTW, CIA customer service immediately improved to its highest levels ever!
Using much data gathered, they determined that the solution for World Peace was the Subaru B11S. It's so gorgeous to look at and drive that noone can even think of anything but peace. Even Germany is being swayed, probably because they have Autobahns and can wring this baby out.
She also determined the only good use for all that military power is to funnel all that technology into the engine bay of the B11S, hence the 400hp (grossly under-rated, I hear it's closer to 500).
Arab countries agree in principal to support her, so long as all the Sultans get a copy of their own.
Brian's post #13774. It summed up my feelings about the Iraq situation very well. I'm actually just as afraid of what someone like Saddam would do to the US of A as I am what Bush has & will continue to do to our country. Just to offer a bit of background on my upbringing; I was raised a military brat. My father was a career counter-intelligence officer. I lived half of my first 21 years of age overseas. Consequently, I'm not a pacifist. I don't, however, believe that war is always justified. It should be the last resort at all times. My father summed up Bush's war effort with Iraq when he says it has sickened him to see Bush take war and cheapen it to the point of shame. This comes from a man who gave 26 years of his life to the military and saw action in Korea & Vietnam!
Having said all that, I want to make it clear that I support our soldiers and my prayers are with them for a safe return. It hits close to home to be sure.
Ashamed of our "president" in Seattle, Stephen
PS: The speech by Senator Byrd to the Congress is one that every American should read and digest. It raises many of the same questions that Brian's post did.
My thoughts go out to our soldiers overseas, and I hope for their safe return.
Brian - I too appreciated your little diatribe. Well thought out and very well put.
Here I am, logging on to a car shopping site, thinking I'm going to read about cars and I actually get some of the most intelligent and level headed conversation I've had in years. It keeps me coming back, that's for sure.
Great to hear from you! Are you back permanently or did you just temporarily esacpe from the dungeon? Are you fixed up now? We've all been thinking of you and hoping that your recovery was going well.
After last night's CHAT, I'm losing my patience as to restraining myself. Might I suggest that the topic of Iraq be moved to a different site other than Edmunds. Otherwise it could get very ugly here shortly...
Comments
I also ehco what a lot of the crew have already said if you go back down the years the US has been in bed with some of the worst scumbags the world has known, Osama Bin Ladin being one and Manuel Noriego was another.
More recent look who is calling the shots in Afganistan right now, anybody willing to bet that he is going to be a major headache somewhere down the line.
Cheers Pat.
I hope we find a peaceful solution.
Ken
-juice
While France, Germany and Russia can certainly question the US's motives for wanting to go to war with Iraq, the US can just as easily question their motives for not wanting a war.
-Frank P.
Cheers Pat.
So what were the other sports? I'm curious to know.
Ken
Let's assume for a moment that action is justified. The way our leadership has gone out of its way to thumb its nose at the rest of world, beginning in the early weeks of their administration (Kyoto, ABM, etc, etc), is hardly conducive to coalition building. Remember when they went on to loudly declare that they didn't need UN approval for war, and didn't need Congress' approval either. Remember ? Only after the polls showed weak support for war without international support did they grudgingly accept the need to try inspections. That wasn't lost on the world at large.
We don't live on an island, and our actions don't occur in a vacuum. What the rest of the world thinks does matter. My greatest concern is for the months and years after we win the war. By conducting this war in the absence of international support, we fuel the flames of anti-Americanism everywhere, particularly in the Middle East. Irrespective of whether the charges are true, we leave the strong impression that we really are a bunch of imperialists bent on oil and world domination. Perception is reality, in this case.
Does anyone outside of the administration really believe that waging war in Iraq will lay the foundations for peaceful, Western-style democracies in the Middle East? Moderate leaders in the Middle East certainly don't. The Europeans certainly don't. The Turks certainly don't. What do they know that we don't know ?
We're going to make an example of Iraq, and the bad guys will cower in terror before us ? Not likely. The bad guys are just as convinced that God is on their side as we are. They will react with the same righteous indignation and determination. In the absence of international sanction, we're simply the biggest bullies on the block, throwing our weight around and copping an attitude about it besides.
I don't doubt that we will win this war. I can see that the war might be justified - the jury's still out on that, IMO. But we have completely destroyed the ability for any moderate voices in the Middle East and elsewhere to support our actions - and have multiplied by many times the long-term costs of the war, to ourselves, the people of the Middle East, and to the world at large.
Even if we're doing the "right thing", we're doing it very much the "wrong way".
With all due respect to those who disagree with me,
-brianV
bad things can, and honestly probably will, happen if the war drags on. the US' strategy keys on it being over quickly and decisively. now my question is that if saddam goes into hiding, how are you going to find him? if a new regime is installed while he's hiding, how stable with that be? (think about the infighting in Afghanistan.)
I just see too many contingencies on a quick, decisive win. the Iraqis are already surrendering, but I'm still concerned about resistance in cities and how to put a government in place that will stand.
but I do agree with Bob that force is needed. I'd just feel a lot better about it if I were confident it was as easy as they make it out to be.
oh and Ken, Juice-- surely a triathalon is in there. marathon plus swimming and biking... yikes!
-Colin
Did we not learn the lesson of Vietnam?
TWRX
-Colin
ps, although we are making money hand over fist these days. that happens when crude is high, it's simple economics of fixed and variable costs.
I'm not in favor of war either but I've yet to hear a viable alternative. Are we just supposed to mind our own business and hope for the best? War may not be the answer but neither is ignorance.
-Frank P.
At the least I'd be very upset, and probably dead along with bat1161
-mike
In 1945 we didn't have the Internet, cell phones, and the information monster—television. It is a vastly different world today than it was 58 years ago, for better or for worse.
As I said earlier, we won't be able to contain terrorism unless we take a very proactive stance against it.
Bob
* stopping a soccer penalty kick
* returning a tennis serve
* hitting a fast ball
When I saw running a marathon made the list, I immediately thought of you psycological battle to finish the race. I get tired driving 26 miles! :-)
The list was the 10 toughest things to do, I think a triathlon would be considered 3 seperate things.
Although Ernest Hemingway said that the only 3 true sports are rock climbing, bull fighting, and automobile racing. The rest are kids' games played by men.
-juice
* Downhill ski racing
* Tour de France
* Hitting a golf ball in a straight line (consistently)
-Frank P.
Steve
Dennis: In a previous search on the DigiTraveler (Radio Shack) I did come across someone who was fabricating his own proprietary to USB style cable. I was hoping that someone would report their experience with it before risking blowing up Beths new, most prized possession!
Steve
As to illusions, did anyone see Nightline last night ? They had a group called the "Project for the New American Century", who plainly stated that they have been planning and advocating for a war in Iraq since well before Bush took office. Their members include Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld, along with 7 other highly ranked officials in the Bush Administration.
I'll have to study the show's transcript and research this group more thoroughly, but they apparently believe that we should impose our way of doing things on the world at large - by force. Furthermore, they are quite prepared to toss overboard any principles of international relations that get in their way. They dropped strong hints that Iraq should be used as a staging base for attacking other nations in the Middle East that are not to our liking. Our relations with Saudi Arabia "should be reviewed" - in the context that statement carried far more weight than some academic policy adjustment.
One of the reasons that the rest of the world is resisting the US "initiative", is that we intend to make a massive, unprovoked, pre-emptive attack against a sovereign nation for the purposes of overthrowing its government. Although some would disagree with me, I do not believe that we have linked Iraq to 9/11, despite 2 years of intensive intelligence effort. At least I have yet to see compelling evidence - based on fact as opposed to conjecture, suspicion and paranoia. The only link between the two that Colin Powell offered to the UN was the alleged presence of Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq. Even if there are Al-Qaeda operatives in Iraq, that doesn't mean that Saddam is supporting them. There are Al-Qaeda operatives in Canada, Great Britain and the US as well.
Saddam is not a nice fellow and bent on acquiring very dangerous weapons. So we attack Iraq and overthrow Saddam. The world is full of Saddams - many of these despots owe their positions to us. Where does it stop ? How many countries are we prepared to invade ? How long do we think the world at large will stand for this ? How can this policy be reconciled with American ideals and traditions ? It's no wonder the world at large is up in arms !
North Korea offers an interesting lesson to all the bad guys out there: if you don't have an A-bomb yet, get one post haste or else. What will we do if North Korea decides to make a pre-emptive strike against South Korea?
The civil implications of this administration's policies are just as troubling, if not more so. The Patriot Act gives the government the right to force book stores and libraries to reveal your reading habits - under a gag order, so that store clerks and librarians may not reveal under criminal penalties who the FBI is spying on to anyone, including their own family members. John Ashcroft's Justice Department has taken the official position that our government may unilaterally declare any person, US citizen or foreign national, here or abroad, an "enemy combatant", then suspend habeas corpus, deny the accused access to the legal system, and hold them indefinately in solitary confinement. They've proposed TIPS - systematic spying by Americans on Americans, ala East Germany at the height of the Honecker regime. Fact, not illusion.
By all accounts, Jose Pedilla, an "enemy combatant", is not a nice fellow. I wouldn't want to live next to him. I wouldn't want my son to consider him a friend. But he is an American citizen, born and raised in Chicago. He has the right to a trial by jury. Period. The government must be made to present their case against him, follow evidentiary rules, and allow him to defend himself. Period. This is the rule of law - the system of checks and balances that preserves our freedom. What John Ashcroft has proposed and instituted is rule by decree. It is un-American. It is wrong. It is not what our armed forces are going into battle to defend. It contradicts everything this country stands for. Our Founding Fathers must be writhing in their graves.
You can lose your freedom in many places. Freedom must be defended on the battlefield, yes, but also before the courts, in the legislatures, in the executive mansions, in corporate boardrooms, and in the voting booth. You can lose your freedom in any of these places.
Paranoid illusions? "It won't happen to me?" History, recent history, is full of people, millions of people, who lost their lives believing it couldn't happen to them. We are not immune.
Peace at all costs? No, thank you. Defend the country forcefully? Certainly. Abandon American ideals and traditions, undermine democratic institutions, suspend the rule of law, pre-emptively attack other nations at will without international sanction ? Certainly not!
Respectfully,
-brianV
Don't forget the chat tonight, I promise a little surprise. That's all I'm gonna say about it until 9pm.
-juice
Yes, a triathalon -- especially the full Ironman ones -- are amazing. How about ultramarathons?
juice -- On the morning of our race, we boarded buses at the finish line to drive us up 26.2 miles to the start. I remember thinking "Man, I've got to run all this back?".
Ken
I still don't have DSL in my new house yet (dang phone company) so I'll attempt joining chat via dial-up. Hope it doesn't hurt.
Ken
Reasoning: I've hit millions and never once did it go straight!
Proof: therefore, by the law of large numbers, proof positive that the feat is clearly impossible.
-juice AKA "slice"
-Dave
No fair. I can't make the chat tonight - hockey game. Guess I'll read about the surprise tomorrow. Could it be our long lost friend is back???
Greg
"... the Subaru WRX STi is essentially a street-legal rally car, with 300 hp, race-car handling, and all-wheel drive. Better handling not only makes a sedan more fun to drive, but typically adds to its safety by improving its accident-avoidance capabilities."
Sounds like CR has been listening to Subaru's ads. Pretty funny to see the STi mentioned in a periodical like CR.
..Mike
..Mike
TWRX
It's hard to stay balanced and centered. Trouble is, these issues are so complicated, it's impossible to say anything meaningful and balanced without writing a novel.
Watching Nightline last night, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I have spent some time verifying the gist of their story today. To their credit, these "project" people state that their position should be debated.
The only difference between a justified war and an unjustified one is the reason you went to war.
If this is really about some bizarre "America will save the world crusade", fueled by paranoia, arrogance, self-righteousness and fundamentalism, I'm out. Way out.
And the civil liberties thing scares the h*ll out of me, frankly. I spent a month in East Germany in 1982 on a student exchange. I have experienced a police state first hand. It's a chilling experience, you really can't imagine. We're not there yet, but the signs are all pointing in the wrong direction.
-brianV
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/view/
Interesting to read you guys in here on the 'war' on Iraq ... I'm still formulating my opinion of it all but I do appreciate the way you guys can intelligently state a position while not just emotionally running all over each other ... a rare thing in today's world and something we should value as Americans ...
-juice
Cheers Pat.
Greg: Depending on the feed, I may be at the same game via ESPN, and make the chat too!
Ken: Dial up chat is survivable. Not so bad once the connection is up & running. Minimal lag.
Juice: Is your surprise illegal, immoral, or fattening? (It is Lent, after all)
Cheers!
Paul
Patti
-Dave
-Dave
Steve
Bob
It would've helped the mood - war and talk of war dominating the chat. Instead of watching the President I watched Rally Turkey on Speed Channel. You all have bought a lot of ad time on there - I must've seen the WRX "All-Wheel Driveaway" ad at least a dozen times!
Ed
Cheers Pat.
Welcome back - hope your healing well!
Cheers!
Paul
TWRX
The surprise was...
Patti underwent surgery to alter her appearance and penetrate Iraq as a spy for the CIA. BTW, CIA customer service immediately improved to its highest levels ever!
Using much data gathered, they determined that the solution for World Peace was the Subaru B11S. It's so gorgeous to look at and drive that noone can even think of anything but peace. Even Germany is being swayed, probably because they have Autobahns and can wring this baby out.
She also determined the only good use for all that military power is to funnel all that technology into the engine bay of the B11S, hence the 400hp (grossly under-rated, I hear it's closer to 500).
Arab countries agree in principal to support her, so long as all the Sultans get a copy of their own.
-juice
PS Welcome back Patti! :-)
TWRX
Having said all that, I want to make it clear that I support our soldiers and my prayers are with them for a safe return. It hits close to home to be sure.
Ashamed of our "president" in Seattle,
Stephen
PS: The speech by Senator Byrd to the Congress is one that every American should read and digest. It raises many of the same questions that Brian's post did.
Craig
My thoughts go out to our soldiers overseas, and I hope for their safe return.
Brian - I too appreciated your little diatribe. Well thought out and very well put.
Here I am, logging on to a car shopping site, thinking I'm going to read about cars and I actually get some of the most intelligent and level headed conversation I've had in years. It keeps me coming back, that's for sure.
-Ian
-Frank P.
Bob