Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

paisan · September 2003

I agree with Juice.

Let me get this straight. You guys think that after 30K miles, he should get a BRAND NEW car for free? At the best I'd say they should replace it with a car with 30K miles, or give him a brand new one, less the depreciation of $.32/mile @ 30K miles on his current one.

This is the typical problem with subaru buyers, they want more than what's fair

-mike

jfl · September 2003

TWRX, You purchased a new car for $24,300. As much as we love our car(s), after 30,000 miles, it's no longer new. If your car were totaled, the insurance company wouldn't give you $24,300. Therefore, I think it's unreasonable to expect the dealer offer @24,300 regardless of fault.

Yes, you can pursue legal action but that takes time. What will you be driving while all the legal stuff is taking place? I still feel you should wotk on the Yellow WRX deal.

Whatever you decide, hope it all works out for you.

Jim

jfl · September 2003

Frank, I'm also in the Bay Area. You can email me and let me know where you're staying.

Jim

p0926 · September 2003

Sorry Jim, I didn't mean to leave anybody out. I'm staying in Pleasanton.

-Frank P.

twrx · September 2003

No I don't really expect to get $24 k for the car. I said that is ideally what I want. But isn't true that a car must be bought back under the terms of most state lemon laws? This dealer has rendered the car as useless as if it were a factory lemon. So next time I guess I should buy a Ford or Chevy which will breakdown without the help of the service department. I also want a dealer who is not trying to make money off the misfortune that they caused me.

As to what I am driving: it's a 1992 Toyota pickup with 122,000 miles. Darn! The 3 month 1000 mile free warranty I got from the mom and pop dealership I got it from last year is up!

(hope I still have a sense of humor as frustrated as I am)

tWrX

p0926 · September 2003

Bruce,

I thought we already covered that the lemon law doesn't apply in your case? Also, even at $4.8k, I seriously doubt the dealer is "Making money" off you. However, my contention is that he should kick in a little of his own money to make matters right.

-Frank P.

paisan · September 2003

Lemon Law: Wouldn't cover for various reasons: 1) not a factory defect, dealer is 100% responsible for the damage, similar to if you got into a car accident, manufacturer isn't responsible for that either, 2) Over the 12K of most state's lemon law clauses, 3) Even a lemon has 3 chances to get fixed, they could stick a new motor in there and solve it I would think

As for you not trusting the dealer, you could probably sue the dealer to have it fixed at another dealer or independent shop, but that would involve a lawsuit and would take time, time you would not have your car. Also you mentioned there are no other dealers in the area

I highly doubt the dealer is making money even on the $4.8K deal, don't forget the operating expenses involved in a dealership (insurance, utilities, rent, capital, etc) and they will probably lose money on the forester.

-mike

kens · September 2003

Will you be in Pleasanton the whole time? I'd be up for meeting up, but we would need to choose a location that's a little closer. Both Kate and I work just west of the San Jose area (Santa Clara).

How much free time do you have?

Ken

jfl · September 2003

Frank, if you have wheels you could probably head south on 680 and meet somewhere central to everyone.

Frank, I didn't mean to sound left out. Just wanted to crash the party! 8~O

Jim

kate5000 · September 2003

That would be great! I mean, to meet with you, Ken and jfi. I work in Silicon Valley, but live close to Pleasanton, so evening meeting will work out better for me if in the East Bay, but daytime will be more convenient if in the South Bay.

My husband is on a business trip this week, so I'll need a notice, to arrange for babysitter. Oh, and I can bring his new WRX to the meeting! Hee-hee.

I don't see your email in your profile. My email at work (the only one I'm checking often) -- please get it from Ken or Juice.

jfl · September 2003

Getting better all the time! I also live in the East Bay but work in Palo Alto. Just need to pick a place.

Jim

p0926 · September 2003

Cool! I've met a significant number of the east coast (DC area) contingent so getting to finally meet the west coasters will be great.

I should be done with my meeting early Thursday afternoon so I'll be free anytime after that. Sounds like somewhere in the Pleasanton area after everybody gets off work is best for Kate and Jim. How about you Ken?

Kate/Ken- Jim has my email address and cel phone number.

-Frank P.

kens · September 2003

Frank,

I'm the odd person here since I live in the Peninsula and work in the South Bay -- basically opposite of what Jim and Kate do. Going towards Pleasanton would be heading even further away from home.

I'd love to hook up with you all, but I don't want to make it harder for the three of you. Why don't you plan with Kate and Jim, keep me in the loop and I'll see what I can do. If it's early enough I just might be able to make it.

Ken

ateixeira · September 2003

Yes, it is reasonable to expect a replacement car - but not a brand new one. One that is similar in age and mileage to yours, sure. Not brand new. No lawyer is that good.

And yes, you probably do have a case for negligence against that dealer (not Subaru), but again, what will you win? The value of your car used, not a new one. That's a pretty big distinction. $9600 per paisan's formula. For exactly half you can have a new car with a Gold warranty. It's win/win.

So, bottom line, if you go to court and "win" $9600 less than you paid, you'd be worse off after paying lawyers fees and giving up the Gold warranty that is on the table. You call that "winning"? OK, go ahead...

The dealer has been horrific, no doubt. But Patti's trying to help out, and it's easier to accept her help than to hire a lawyer and lose even more money *and* lose the warranty (and more hair, which I'm losing just discussing this!).

But now they'll be fixing everything for you for free, and getting reimbursed by Subaru at a much lower rate than retail. I'm sure they'll hate that, they even are forced to offer you a free loaner! They are in your pocket for 7 years at no cost to you. NOW you got 'em back. Get my drift? The cherry on top will be Patti's chastising of their customer service.

You wanna get back at them? Buddy, open your eyes, TAKE THE WARRANTY!

-juice

ateixeira · September 2003

BTW, pardon my taking the position of Devil's Advocate, it's easy for me to play arm chair quarter back when it's not my car, my feelings, my being treated poorly.

<rant warning: please ignore if you are on medication of any sort>

What I really think would be justice would be letting Bruce have at the car of that mechanic, let him randomly disconnect a hose of his liking! HA! ;-)

Same for the people that would not return his call, and for whoever came up with that first offer.

Or perhaps a sledge hammer.

)

Just kidding. Don't try this at home. The Motion Picture Association of America has rated this post NC-17. Drinking alcohol can cause birth defects. No animals were hurt in the creation of this idea.

<rant over>

-juice

Kirstie_H · September 2003

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat -- Our topic tonight is "Warranties: Are they worth it?"

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

twrx · September 2003

Juice believe me I don't care much for the legal profession. Read my post from a couple of days ago about the lawsuit that was dumped on me for my year 2000 fender bender. I am sure I have encountered the internet version of ambulance chasers. They came up first on a Google search when I did one for the lemon law. So I filled out their form. 12 hours later I was told I might have a case and to send them paperwork. I am still waiting to get some paperwork for the last two repairs and I will fax it to them. At this point it can't hurt. They are surely a last resort. I am taking this day by day. For instance today I am hoping that either Geri from SOA contacts me or the field person she is sending to Evansville contacts me.

TWRX

twrx · September 2003

I sat in the drivers seat of a new Evo last night. Was that related to my situation? Well I thought so but I got quickly convinced that was not a way I want to go. My wife has had good luck with this Toyota/Mitsu dealer. The good news is that locally the Evo is easy to get (they have 2 and have sold 4 already), has only the sunroof and wing option, and the dealer is not trying to get any extra money over the list price as the local Subaru dealer is wanting $2000 over list for an STi.
But it is not for me: What is this no cruise control thing anyway? I hate having an aftermarket one put on. Despite plenty of headroom with the sunroof (something I can't say for the WRX equipped with one), great legroom and a excellent feel to the Recarro seats there is an ergonomic goof that is so bad it is unreal. The Recarros use knobs to dial the adjust the back angle which is too slow in the first place and the knobs can't be grasped when the seat is pushed back because there is not much room between them and the car's B pillar. What goofy design.

TWRX

ateixeira · September 2003

Keep in mind Patti is still MIA, I still haven't heard from her. I bet she'd be taking more aggressive action if she were out and about.

EVO? That's it, you're cheating on us, it's over! LOL

Next you'll try an SRT-4, *gasp*! ;-)

-juice

twrx · September 2003

In addition to everything else if I got top dollar for my WRX I'd still put out much $ for that car. Remember I just about have the WRX paid off and did not want another car loan. Every 5 minutes or so I change my mind on how to get out of the nightmare. I am likely going to Louisville this weekend. There are two Subaru dealers there. Must have a look at what they have. There is also an Acura dealer there. I really like the RSX. Not expensive, good performance and great gas mileage. (I know, time for Juice to inject anti FWD rant). If I do defect from Subaru it will be Honda/Acura. So why am I not anti FWD? Well for 24 years I owned one Honda or another and I am really used to its handling characteristics. I have had some really nice Honda products in the past. (How can you not be a Honda lover if you owned the first model year Accord?) My CRX, Integra and Delsol were totally fun cars.

The honor roll:
1976 Accord
1979 Accord LX
1981 Civic GL hatchback
1984 CRX
1987 Acura Integra LS
1994 Civic Delsol Si
Wife:
1984 Accord
1987 Ingetra LS
1991 Accord EX wagon

TRSX? TBAJA?

c_hunter · September 2003

I really sympathize with you -- I would be very upset in the same situation. I hope somebody gives you an acceptable deal on a new Subaru (I tend to side with you in this debate), but the RSX-S is a very nice car too!

Craig

ateixeira · September 2003

But it's FWD and...

LOL

Do what you feel comfortable with. Buy a car that you'll love and enjoy. If it can't be another WRX, then so be it. I'm an enthusiast and can understand, that comes first and foremost, you want to feel happy behind the wheel.

-juice

twrx · September 2003

Well the base RSX is only $20 k, gets 26/34 mpg on regular. At the $17.5k that the Sube dealer in Evansville offered that would be only $2.5 k difference. Plus gas bill on it would be much less than what I am spending now.

kate5000 · September 2003

East bay is not like thousands of miles away :-)Say magic words: "San Mateo bridge, east-bound" -- and you're there!

kate5000 · September 2003

What about 7 pm in some of Pleasanton restaurants?

I'm not very familiar with the local gourmet scene, so will gladly accept your suggestions, Jim.

ateixeira · September 2003

I figured you for a Type S at the mininum. Is a hatchback OK for your needs? I suspect you'll miss the torque a bit. What about a TSX? That at least has a 2.4l engine.

I won't suggest an LL Bean Outback, which comes with 3 years free service at your beloved dealership! ;-)

-juice

[Deleted User] · September 2003

The Acura TSX is a VERY nice car, and while it has decent power for a non-turbo 4-cylinder, it just doesn't have a lot of punch. Honda's 240 HP V6, on the other hand, is a FUN engine to drive. Have you thought about a V6 Accord Coupe with 6-speed manual tranny? Hard car to find in stock and a little more expensive than the other options you listed, but definitely worth a test drive...and it even gets decent gas mileage (20/30).

twrx · September 2003

Well the base RSX is only $20 k, gets 26/34 mpg on regular. At the $17.5k that the Sube dealer in Evansville offered that would be only $2.5 k difference. Plus gas bill on it would be much less than what I am spending now.

jfl · September 2003

Kate,
I'm from Fremont/Union City so I don't know much about the Pleasanton scene either!? (Not that there's a great selection in my neck of the woods either.)
Jim

twrx · September 2003

Well the TSX is a bit more than what I want to spend and I'm not thrilled with the 4 dr. styling. The RSX is the most afordable and if the deal was right I could afford the RSX type S (although I would be right back into the octane debate with that one) The Accord would be really sweet and the dealer is local. It all depends on if the Subaru dealer can finally acceptable repair my car, what the local Honda or Louisville Acura dealer will give me for it and whether the local Subaru dealer would be willing to offer me a better deal. (Yes I know I am expecting too much.)

TACCORD

kens · September 2003

So, is Frank not mobile? If we could meet, say in San Jose, that would work a lot better.

In any event, it'll be difficult for me to stay out too long since I do need to get back and help the wife with our baby. I think the best bet right now is to plan what's best for the three of you and I'll try to join.

"Magic Words" -- If it were only that easy to drive to the East Bay during commute hours!

Ken

p0926 · September 2003

Kate- Sounds good to me. I'm heading out shortly but will call Jim to get the details.

Ken- Don't be a wuss. How far of a drive is it for you? Us Atlantans don't think twice about driving 30 miles for dinner (in fact that's pretty much the avg commute).

-Frank P.

kens · September 2003

Actually, my commute is 30 miles, the drive from work to Pleasanton another 30 miles and the drive back from Pleasanton home another 30.

It's not the distance that concerns me, it's the time. Can you guys meet up any earlier?

Ken

ateixeira · September 2003

Yeah, but don't focus too much on price. Being the lowest cost option does not make it the best choice, else we'd all be driving Echos. ;-)

I think a base RSX is just too much of a step down from a WRX. Compare that to an RS sedan, those are cheap. $17,074 at Fitz, why don't you fly over to DC and hang with us on the 27th, maybe watch paisan race in Richmond. Then buy the RS and take a road trip home to break it in. It'll be a wild weekend but by Monday you'll be all set.

Or an Outback Sport or Forester X, but you get my point. The lighter Subies feel peppy with the 2.5l and we average about 25mpg or so.

Ken the daddy! Boy can I relate. Can you please explain to paisan why I've missed the last couple of track dates?

FWIW, I joke about XT envy all the time, but it's kinda cool to have the underdog engine. OK, not really, I sound pretty pathetic, but I gotta make myself feel better some how since Ross is in retirement! LOL

-juice

fibber2 · September 2003

As Ken already knows, I will be attending and presenting at the ISTFA (Int Symp for Testing & Failure Analysis) at the Santa Clara Conv Center (Great American Pkwy, down the street from Intel...) the week of November 2 thru 6. I will probably get in the afternoon of Saturday 11/1, out on Friday 11/7. So save some "party time" for me too!! And yes, I am mobile and don't mind getting lost...

Steve

kens · September 2003

You bet, Steve! I may even be at ISTFA.

Well plan some test driving! ;-)

Ken

ateixeira · September 2003

OK, she's alive and well, first off. She had a cyst removed from her abdomen last week. She notice it while driving the STi, oddly enough, and a sharp pain forced her to stop and call an ambulance.

I think the diagnosis was a swollen funny bone. ;-)

The good news? She saved the car.

JUST KIDDING!

)

I mean, the car was fine, but of course the good news is that she's OK, they removed the cyst and she's expected to recover fully. It was not in any way related to her back issues from last year, as we first suspected.

She'll only be back to work in 3 weeks, though, the stitches have to heal. She said she felt more pain than when she gave birth! Aye aye aye.

I did get a chance to ask about Bruce's situation. Without going into detail let it be known that strings were pulled and the $4800 offer represents a "definite loss" to the dealership. SoA sweetened the deal with the offer of the Gold Warranty (Patti's doing), but it ain't getting any better than that.

She said she misses the gang and will come back as soon as her doctor allows. :-)

-juice

rsholland · September 2003

for the heads up. Get well Patti!

Bob

jfl · September 2003

Patti,

Get well soon. I'll bet it hurts to laugh!

Jim

locke2c · September 2003

thanks for the update, juice.

and regarding the much discussed $4800 WRX switch-out... if were in this position it wouldn't be the money to me. it would absolutely be the emotional part of working with a dealer again after they did that to me. I'd want to be sure that they know what the did wrong and are earnestly making strides to improve.

I don't think I would demand someone's job over that... but I would definitely expect them to held accountable for their actions and NOT to repeat them without dire consequences. in short, the issue I would have would be having confidence that I'm not going to get similarly hosed by the same dealer again a few years down the road.

but again-- the dollars and cents look good. reasonable at the least. it is pointless to say that what you would do if none of this had ever happened, because it has happened. I'd definitely focus on what's best-- or least bad, perhaps-- from here out. I wouldn't consider an RSX remotely near a WRX replacement personally. Not even a type S...

-Colin

twrx · September 2003

Seriously, I do appreciate the all of the advice I'm getting. Feel as if I am in a holding mode till this latest repair is made. Hopefully the last.

Or maybe I should just try to find a 1965 Plymouth Valiant 200 with the 225cubic inch slant 6 and the three speed column shift like I drove in college. Life might be easier that way.

ateixeira · September 2003

While that's true, we all make mistakes working on our cars. Remember my story about the oil filter on the 626, how I left two filter gaskets on and it leaked, I had to limp home and change the oil again?

I told my wife she could fire me as her mechanic, but I work for free so she forgave me. ;-)

Point is, we're all human. You've never overtorqued a bolt and broken it? I'm sure we could share some funny miscues over a couple of beers (and I'd look forward to it).

The mechanic forgot one lousy bolt and he's probably paying for it dearly, if he still has his job at all. There was SoA involvement at the VP level.

The dealer is accepting the loss, this even after all the free labor/parts cost they've had to give up trying to work on the car.

SoA is assisting and handing over a $1300 warranty on a silver platter.

Patti is in on sick leave yet she was thoughtful enough to ask how the situation was going.

I dunno, what more we can ask for? For the CEO to pay a personal visit to your house and wax your car? Maybe subject that mechanic and his family to chinese water torture? Force the dealership owner to hear 20 insurance salesmen offer sales pitches?

Nah, that last one is too cruel. LOL

-juice

bluesubie · September 2003

Thanks for the Patti update! I'm sure she'll have about a bajillion emails when she gets back to work. :-)

Bruce - my recommendation is that you move to NJ. :-)
I really can't believe that #&** that you have been through! Yes, I remember those days back on the vmag forums. Like me, you went through so much with your clutch issue. And like me, you stayed dedicated to Subaru and bought a WRX.

Luckily, we have a lot of dealers to choose from here. Right after my problems, my previous dealer got rid of the Service Manager (hope my complaints to the District Rep. helped with that). Now, the dealership was bought out for the second time in five years.

Doesn't matter to me. I found an excellent dealer and I'm not going back to my previous one (even though I now travel twice the distance).

Is this the same dealer that you went to with your Forester TO bearing problem?

-Dennis

ateixeira · September 2003

I missed the irony earlier, you live in the same state where most Subies are built!

I'd avoid any v1.0, though, if you're not feeling patient this time around.

Our feedback can improve Subaru, that's part of the process, the purpose of the Crew (and some folks thought it was about sharing recipes for M. F. Cookies!). Dennis' is a good example of what can happen.

Let's see how the repairs go. Who knows, it may return to it's old self and all this was for naught.

I'll be in Tucson AZ the next week or so and I'm not sure if we'll have internet access or not, but I'll try. I'm definitely gonna miss the chat unless they offer web surfing inside our airplane! :-)

-juice

kens · September 2003

juice,

Thanks for the update on Patti. I'm glad to know that she's doing well.

Ken

fibber2 · September 2003

My sister-in-law in Fredrickburg, VA is looking for a painless way to sell her 2000 4-Runner. Do you know if a buying service (CarMax ?) in the area that I could direct her to?

Steve

fibber2 · September 2003

That sounds great! I need to start pricing airfare, etc.

Steve

kate5000 · September 2003

I was staying away from this discussion for a while... as much as I can feel you being upset with dealer etc, personally, I would have taken that offer ($4800 and Gold coverage). I think it's a pretty good offer actually, and I'm a cheapskate by nature.

kate5000 · September 2003

Glad to hear she's ok now!!!

ateixeira · September 2003

I know of a Car Max in Rockville, MD. They low-balled my cousin on her Outback, though.

I think she was offered $12,500, but ended up doing a private party sale and got $15k for it. (Edit: at least $5k depreciation in 2 years and 22k miles despite the higher private party sale price, see how good your deal is Bruce?)

She was forced into a minivan after the 3rd kid plus car pooling. Her Odyssey slid into a snow bank in the first storm! :-(

-juice

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