Lease Questions - Ask Here

aleksisa · April 2005

if it helps:
I was able to lease E350 (Sunroof Pkg, Navigation, Heated Sts) for 7% off MSRP (at Invoice price), my lease payments are 680. I'm in Maryland. Out of poket were
sales tax+first payment+tag/registration fees.

not_too_shabby · April 2005

Hey Car_man

This is the month, our Saab lease is up and we are leasing another. It should arrive in a couple weeks.

Do you have the April saab programs yet? I am interested in MF and residual info for 2/24 and 3/36K leases on a 2005 9-5 Arc Wagon. I saw the numbers for March, but I am expecting the residual to drop possibly for April. Also there was a $3000 lease incentive in march and $500 loyalty. I am wondering if they extended that or changed it. Thanks.

This is a great resource. With the info you provide I can calculate what the lease payment should be based on a negotiated selling price. That way I hope to not get ripped off when I get there.

forks2 · April 2005

What is it? Also, is it a good idea to get excessive wear and tear plan?

nospam · April 2005

Hey Car_man.

I may lease this weekend - see post 18540.

I'm not totally sold on the car - don't quite appreciate the interior, but at this time there is an 75% chance I will end up with the car (maybe even higher)

And if I had some idea if the incentives were going up or down in April - it may push me to try to get that same deal tomorrow when I visit the dealer again.

Thanks - you're the best

dwynne · April 2005

I saw this posted elsewhere, but I though I would get the opinion of folks here.

Someone leases a car and the dealer by mistake puts down 15,000 miles per year on the lease document. The customer desires a 12,000 mile per year lease. The payments and residual are all correct, but the lease "legal document" clearly says they are allowed 15,000 per year. I am assuming the customer did not notice the mistake when they signed the lease agreement.

The dealer calls the customer a week later in a panic - the lease bank will not fund the lease because of the mistake and wants the customer to come in and sign a new and correct agreement.

Obviously, the proper thing to do is sign the new agreement. The customer only expected 12k mile per year lease and the new contract will have the same payments, residual, etc.

The question then is, what would you do?

We hear all the time about terrible lease deals and that there is no "cooling off" period are any legal way to get out of them. In this case an honest mistake was made, but lots of customers have made "honest mistakes" signing bad lease deals and could not draw up a new one a week later and get the dealer to sign it.

One thought would be to agree to sign, but ask the dealer to pay you the mileage overcharge for the miles he is taking back (3k x ?? years x mileage charge). Since if you were to drive the car too many miles you would be charged for them. "In theory" if you do not re-sign the corrected lease you would not. So to protect yourself in the future you get payment for the miles now.

Anyway, the right thing is obvious but I just wonder what folks would really do?

Dennis

kyfdx · April 2005

I don't think it really matters. The contract isn't valid until approved by the bank (the Lessor). Residuals are set by the bank, so the dealer can't write a contract where the residual doesn't match the term and the mileage allowance.

In that way, it is just like a finance contract. Until the bank approves it, it isn't valid. Your only choice is to sign the new contract or give the car back.

So, the Lessee can't just say he has a valid contract, and ignore it.. There really isn't a choice.

Now, if the story was about the dealer calling and saying they used the wrong selling price, then we'd have an ethical dilemma, as the bank couldn't care less what the dealer sells the car for.

regards,
kyfdx

qbrozen · April 2005

well, if everything were to stay the same and just the total miles allowed changes, I'd resign. I mean, if I were to lease for 12K per year, its because that's what I drive. So, what? Am I going to force myself to go out and put on another 3K per year? No. So the extra 3K is going to do me no good. So why not keep a good relationship with the dealer?

dwynne · April 2005

I pointed out to the customer that most of the lease deals I have done the copy I got "At signing" was not counter-signed. Once the lease funded then I got my "Real" copy in the mail signed by the lease bank rep. If that is the case with this customer, then they don't really have a legal document - just a copy that they themselves signed.

I think the urge to NOT do the right thing is just because bad dealers and finance guys hosing folks so much over the years - it is just hard to "forgive" them making a mistake when they don't (usually) take the same approach.....

Dennis

kyfdx · April 2005

I actually had AHFC kick back a lease on my Accord, because the money factor was supposed to be .00236, instead of the .00239 that the dealer used.. I think it lowered my payment by about a $1.00/month. It almost wasn't worth driving back to the dealer to sign it, but they insisted.

regards,
kyfdx

dwynne · April 2005

They should have given you (and this other customer) something for the trouble. A free oil change coupon or something - just for having to come back in for a mistake they made. I think the customer would not have been wondering what to do if they had made some offer "for the use of your time".

Dennis

kyfdx · April 2005

I got a dollar a month... $36. lol

jlsellers · April 2005

I had this happen in reverse; the lease was set up with a 15,000 mi residual but the mileage was typed in as "12,000;" says something when the software does not do this automatically to leave room to adjust all of these, doesn't it? Anyway, I saw it when I got home with the lease (already countersigned), called, and the dealer ran a new lease for me with the right mileage, no questions asked. I think that when everyone knows there is a mistake, you should not try to take advantage of one in your favor if you expect the same behavior from others.

dwynne · April 2005

The customer has clarified - they negotiated back and forth on price, money factor, etc. They asked the dealer to fax them a copy of the lease contract with the best deal numbers on it so they could study it. They saw the 15k and figured the dealer had given them the extra miles to make the deal "sweeter" and to close the deal. So they went in, signed the same document, and drove off in their new ride.

I think the lease copy they have was counter-signed by the dealer.

I would tend to think it was an honest mistake, but I suppose the customer could view it as a "bait and switch" tactic. IF they had a question about could they keep under 12k per year - and then the dealer appears to offer them 15k for the same price. That could have been the last worry and got them to sign at the X.

If I were the customer, I would go back and sign a new contract but I would hope the dealer would give me some reward for helping me out.

If I were the dealer, I would have made such a reward offer when I called to tell the customer that there was a problem.

Dennis

love330conv · April 2005

Anyone knows April numbers for this car? I have as such locked in the deal at March numbers. I am very curious to know if April numbers are better or worse (or same!).

Thanks,
love330conv!

forks2 · April 2005

Dennis/Car_Man,

Do you know if you are "allowed" to tint the windows in a leased vehicle? Thanks!

dwynne · April 2005

IMHO, if done properly is does not detract from the value of the car - in fact it might enhance it. I would be shocked if they batted an eye at turn in time for a quality tint job. If you went against-the-law limo tint or home-brew tint w/lots of air bubbles then they would.

Tinting may be spendy to put on, but it could usually be cheap to remove.

The tinting on my BMW (first owner) is very, very nice. Not too dark and no defroster problems at all. It is hard to back the car in at night though

I am not too sure how much it saves on heat - unless you live where it gets REALLY hot.

Dennis

forks2 · April 2005

Good point(s)! Very helpful as always.Thnks

ltrain · April 2005

hi car_man,
in regards to post 18518, the dealer is still willing to honor the lease if i'm interested, i plan on driving over to look at the truck 2morrow, unless u think i'm getting ripped off. if u could let me know what u think regarding post 18518, i'd appreciate it.

thanks again,
ltrain

echiu · April 2005

Hi Car_Man,

Thanks for your reply a couple of days ago. Just checking in if there is any word on the April lease rates for BMW yet? I am interested in rates for the 2006 530i and 2005 545i with the following parameters: 36 months at 12k miles per year.

Thanks,

-Eric

dwynne · April 2005

>> 36 mo\15k, there is no selling price on the sheet but this is what is listed
>>MSRP $34,335.00
>>agreed value of vehicle and any items i pay for over the lease term (such as
>>taxes, fees, service contracts, insurance, and any outstanding prior credit or
>>lease balance-- $33,533.15
>>gross cap cost $35,118.98
>>acq fee $595.00
>>cap cost reduction $234.57
>>residual value $19914.30
>>rent charge $3038.17
>>total at signing $1000.00
>>total monthly payment $500.23
>>+ they're paying off my wife's old lease for $1050.00

Still not enough info, but I can tell you some things. The promo lease deal is good through 4/4/2005 - so the deal should be the same.

Your total monthly payment includes tax? If so, what is the rate - or what is the base payment w/o tax?

I plugged in your gross cap cost $35,118.98 and your residual $19,914.30 into my lease calculator with the promo 0.00154 money factor and I get $507.10 per month. It looks like of the $1000 at signing you are paying the tags, title, acq fee and $234.57 of the cost of the car. If I take this $234.57 off of the gross cap cost I get $500.23. So assuming your payment does not include tax, then you are getting the promo "buy" rate on the lease.

The invoice on the Pilot you are looking at is $30,936 if you add the old lease payoff of $1,050 to that you get $31,986. The difference between your gross cap cost and this number is a lot - $3,132,98.

What else IS in that number? Do you live in a state where the lease tax is paid all upfront? If so, what is the tax rate? Did you finance an extended warranty or something else (add on accessories, etc) into the deal?

Is this is not tax or stuff you wanted added on, then this is the dealer profit. So while they gave you the best lease rate, they way over-charged you on the Pilot.

Some dealers online are offering this Pilot for invoice or less!

Dennis

gman2005 · April 2005

I'm searching for some information on 36 mo/15k Odyssey leases (residual, money factor). My wife's lease is up in a couple of months, so I'm trying to find the "right" time to lease her the Odyssey she likes.

Thanks,

Jeff

dwynne · April 2005

Link to Lease-It! web page

Free to download and try. Actually not crippled - it just makes you wait each time you run it if you do not pay. But it is only $10 and is so slick!

No need to take a computer or web connection to the dealer - just take your Palm device and Lease-It!

It is so cool sitting there checking the numbers and playing what if. Waive the security deposit for a higher rate? Different term? Solve of money factor? Solve for payment? Solve for cap cost?

Really nice and guaranteed to blow the minds of the folks in the finance office

My Palm device is also my Kyocera 7135 smartphone - so I can use it to make calls, surf the Internet, and do all things Palm - including run Lease-It.

I am not associated with the person/people who wrote it - but I have been using it for years and it came in so handy last night on my wife's lease I though I would share it with everyone. I can't image going to the dealer without my own lease calculator and I know Lease-It has saved me much more than $10 over the years - if nothing else just in peace of mind. Once it saves your bacon on a deal, you will cough up the $10 registration fee too

Dennis

bway · April 2005

Eric,

I am looking at the same cars so am interested in these numbers, lets compare notes and maybe we can work out a deal for 2 cars. What do you think?

ben

bway · April 2005

Car_Man,

First of all I want to thank you for all the valuable information that I have read so far. I am new to edmunds.com and have been reading the forums daily. I really find it helpful when talking to the dealers.

If my pay-off is $28,500 on my current lease and Edmunds TMV is $25,203 can I assume that any dealer will base my "in-equity" on the difference. And what is the best way to structure the new lease, should I pay the difference upfront or roll it into the new lease. fyi, I have 9 payments left at $655 (including tax).

Thanks
Ben

synsat · April 2005

Hi,

New to forum but I faced part of this question myself. Here's what happened: I bought a Saab at balloon end (in TX this avoids paying personal property tax to register the vehicle each year; it's just like a lease). We had some advice to offer LESS than the lease end price to Chase and they took it; we saved roughly $3,500 (this is a hidden secret they don't like folks to know about - that in some cases they will take less). Anyway, guess what I got later? A tax bill on the difference saved! I argued that I had already paid tax on the way in for the original deal. The Texas state agency I contacted to complain told me the reasoning was that since the bank didn't get the residual value for the deal, they claimed a tax loss on the deal and the government goes after me to ante up the balance. I got nowhere contesting the matter.

gperr · April 2005

Dennis,

We got her the graphite pearl. Nice midway between silver and black. She loves it.

Gregg

synsat · April 2005

Hi,

New to this but here goes. Looking at SE V6 with some options that takes the MSRP to $27,052. I was offered an e-price of $24,197 on the vehicle which sounded fair (they were inflexible on going lower). I have top tier credit. If I wanted to do a balloon here in Houston (saves in yearly registration cost), for 3 yrs/36k miles, what are the relevant factors/incentives (the salesman said today that they expect Toyota to extend the current deals past the announced April 4 deadline). Thanks very much in advance. The postings are very valuable.

gperr · April 2005

Dennis,

I have the same phone and have used lease-it for years. GREAT APP. I use loan-util for loan calculations. Kyo 7135 is great, but can't wait for verizon to get the treo 650. It is truly amazing to see the look on some car dealers faces when I calculate the lease payments. It also helps me to not waste their time when I can sit down with friends and say- hey, no way you can get to that price, so no need to bother.

Gregg

ncsailing · April 2005

Car_man,

I am looking for the April 2005 money factors for the Infiniti G35 (2005). 36 and 39 months, 15K, no money down.

When they are out, let us know.

Thanks,

NCSailing

dwynne · April 2005

It is like we are twins

That was my wife's 2nd choice, we got her first choice "desert mist" - and I have to admit it does look nice.

I got the local dealer to come down another $100 (within $200 of the out of state dealer) so we avoided the 6 hour round trip to get it. The local dealer is where I get my S2000 serviced and part of the new car deal is to get a coupon book with coupons for discount oil changes and stuff - so I think I will get a good bit of my $200 back. We got the car, had a nice dinner, and were home in about the time it would have taken us to drive to the other dealer.

There were a couple of hitches in the deal, to maximize their profit (since I was giving them $18,100 for the car including destination) they chose a pre-price increase car for us. The invoice and dealer cost were $100 less than the others. That through off the residual by a bit which changed the payment. Also part of the deal was a $100 Internet "coupon" and they applied it not to the net cap cost but to my amount due at signing. I rolled the acq fee into the lease, got the security deposit waived by bumping up the MF by .24%, and paid the first month, tax, tags, and title only. Even counting their doc fee we were getting the car for > $600 under dealer cost and "financing" it on Honda's money at just over 1%. Hard to beat that deal! She is ahppy, I am happy, the dealer CLAIMS they are not

Dennis

dwynne · April 2005

Twins again

It has more than paid for the $10 I spent on it.

And you are right, they just flip out when I pull out my "phone" and work out the lease number for myself. A couple of the folks at the dealership told us that I was the "best prepared customer" they had ever dealt with. They took the numbers off of the "deal sheet" I wrote up back to stick in their computer. I knew all their numbers, factors, incentives, etc better than they did. I don't feel too bad for them, they did make some of the hold back off of me - darn, see I left money on the table

!

One time the BMW dealer tried to sneak a $600 "wheel and tire insurance" package into a deal I was working. I checked the numbers with Lease-it right in front of him and they didn't work out. Put in his payment rather than the cheaper one I figured and solved for cap cost - oops, there is that hidden charge for the insurance.

Last night with the small tweaks to the numbers I just brought up the saved calcs and made the changes and verified everything before I signed by the X.

It is so cool you can save out a bunch of different cars/scenarios - like rolling in the acq fee, rolling it in and skipping the deposit, just skipping the deposit, etc. Then you can bring each up in turn to compare.

Did you see on his/their web page that there is a loan calc applet coming out soon - in beta now. You can use it for home loans or car loans. I will probably buy it just to use when I help folks with loan questions. I have leased my last 5 cars now and I don't think I am going back to old-fashioned financing, unless there is just a heck of a deal doing it that way.

Dennis

echiu · April 2005

Ben,

Happy to compare notes. I have a silver gray 545i that the dealer is willing to sell to me for $1,500 over invoice. Since the March lease rates were good on that car, I did a rate lock with BMWFS (0.001 and 61% residual for 36mo/12k). In addition, I have a 2006 530i coming in on 4/12 which I have a deposit on. The dealer is willing to sell this car to me for $1,500 over invoice, but quoted me an outrageous MF (0.0027) which makes it more expensive than the 545i. Therefore, I wanted to get the April lease rates on both cars to compare so I can make a decision. By the way, I live in the SF Bay Area.

Best,

-Eric

ltrain · April 2005

dennis,
the $500.23 is the full monthly payment including the tax.
the only other thing in the $3,132.98 is tax...i live in nj 6%, other than that no acessories or add-ons.
thanks for your help dennis

love330conv · April 2005

Hey Car_Man & kyfdx,

Any idea about April lease numbers on 330 convertible? I am very eager to know

fun1 · April 2005

Thanks Car_Man, i bought the '05 LS 430, Blk on Blk with remote access and remote engine start+XM radio+dent and dink coverage+Lojack all thrown in for $67,000. Lease pmts at $1335. I was a happy buyer. Its drives absolutely fabulous. Still trying to get used to Satellite radio and blue tooth phone system. It appears that i dont have to have the key on me to start the car.

dwynne · April 2005

So NJ leases are all up front taxes on the full cap cost amount? I can go check this elsewhere if you don't know for sure.

As I said before:

The invoice on the Pilot you are looking at is $30,936 if you add the old lease payoff of $1,050 to that you get $31,986. The difference between your gross cap cost and this number is a lot - $3,132,98.

If we take the 6% tax on the invoice price of the car + your old lease payoff I get ($31,986 *0.06) $1,919.16 . That leaves $1,213.82 missing. Without other information I have to ASSUME this is the dealer's profit on the deal.

Around where I live - that is probably a decent deal for a loaded Pilot. There is $3,400 in profit in this SUV if purchased at MSRP - so this would be a $2,200 discount and the LOCAL TO ME dealers usually don't discount Pilots much.

Now if I go to carsdirect.com and put in a NYC zip code (for example) the price comes up $200 under INVOICE. So I know there is a Honda dealer in the NY/NJ area that will sell them marked down a lot. Keep in mind there is > $1,000 in hold back money on a loaded Pilot. So if you got one $200 under cost and there are no dealer incentives, they still make > $800.

If it were me, I think I would work on getting some of that $1,213.82 out of the deal. Maybe get them to discount the Pilot another $1,000 and let them keep the $213.82 and the > $1,000 hold back. If they will not lower the price, then try another dealership. I got a good quote from Jersey Honda (Open Road?) in Edison - but decided the savings were not worth all the miles/effort/shipping. You could also go through carsdirect.com since their pre-negotiated price is $1,400 less than your deal.

Of course, I may be missing something - some tax, some fee or something that you have to pay in NJ. Since I am in TN I can't know that - but based on what you posted that is the way it looks.

Dennis

nealintampa · April 2005

car_man,
i just leased a 2005 honda civic LX and was wondering how you thought i did... it was thru AHFC, 36 months, 12k, out the door with only the $230 (+ tax) first month's payment, absolutely no additional fees or payments.
i hope i get a thumbs up, but if not, i'd to know how much better i might have done... thanks for all the useful info on the site.

stalnaker · April 2005

Car_Man:

Also let us know about the G35x........same terms, 36 & 39 months at 15K.

Thanks!

Ernest

stein · April 2005

Carman,

My wife and I visited an Acura Dealer this weekend to test drive the MDX. We love it and want to lease one. I know about the great lease support that Acura is currently offering, but I have a couple of questions:

1) The salesman and his manager said that the current program is the best that Acura has ever offered on the MDX. Is this true?

2) What is the average program that is usually on the MDX?

3) Our current lease is due in July, we would like to wait until the end of May to get the car, but are concerned that the lease program wont be as good and it might pay for us to get it now. I see that Acura is selling less MDXs this year than last, do you think it pays to wait?

As always, thank you for your help.

bway · April 2005

Eric,

I live in SoCal and spoke to a dealer yesterday who said the MF rates were the same for the 2006 530 as the 545 but he gave me .0015 and 59 % residual for both. (36mo/12K) I also have a deposit on a gray 545i with MSRP of $57500, but he is willin gto sell it to me for 53500, not sure what the invoice price is.

I am going to see a dealer near my home tomorrow and will let you know what I find.

regards,
Ben

CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

I would be happy to take a look at your calculations, kracker2k. The first thing that I notice about your estimated lease payment is that you are subtracting the $4,000 customer cash that GM is providing on the 2005 Chevrolet Cavalier from your car's capitalized cost. Unfortunately, GM's normal customer cash incentives are not compatible with GMAC's lease program. The only cash incentives that you would be able to deduct from your car's selling price if you were to lease it through GMAC would be any bonus cash that is available in your area.

I will work up a sample lease payment on this car for you using GM's actual March lease program and Edmunds.com's TMV as its selling price so that you can check your calculations against what I come up with. According to my calculations, if you were to lease a 2005 Chevrolet Cavalier with an MSRP of $14,975 and a selling price of $14,244 (Edmunds.com TMV) through GMAC right now for 3 years with 15,000 miles per (using a lease rate of 4.5% and a residual value of 43%), I estimate that you would have a zero down, pre-tax monthly payment of around $256. Of course, this payment was calculated before the deduction of any available bonus cash and was not based upon the price that you would be entitled to by purchasing through the Supplier Purchase Program.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Thanks for the info, aleksisa. It's always helpful when community members share the details of their deals with everyone.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Not_too_shabby, Saab extended its March lease program through Monday April 4th. As a result I do not know what its new program will be like yet. Please feel free to post a reminder describing what sort of information you are looking for for me in a few days and I will be more than happy to try to give you an idea of what the new program is like. Talk to you then.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Hi forks2. Doc fees are really nothing more than dealer profit. Sure there are legitimate expenses that are associated with the sale of a new automobile, but in my opinion adding an official looking fee to deals to help pay for them rather than doing so out of the proceeds of the sale is a little deceptive. Having said this, nearly all dealers charge some sort of doc fee. Some of these fees are very reasonable, while others are hundreds of dollars. I always advise consumers to look at these fees as part of their vehicle's total selling price. If you feel as though your vehicle's total price, including the doc fee, is a good deal then go for it. If you think that you can get a better total deal at another dealer, shop around. For more information on doc fees, check out the following discussion that appears in this forum: "Documentation Fees".

Most banks are fairly reasonable when it comes to assessing vehicles at lease-end for excess wear and tear. I personally do not think that it is a good idea to purchase any additional wear and tear coverage on a leased vehicle.

Car_man
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smiton · April 2005

Car Man,

I am looking for the April 2005 money factor/residual for the acura tl with and without navigation for 36 months and 12K miles.

(Also) I am looking for the April 2005 money factor/residual for the Infiniti FX35 for 36 months and 12K miles.

Thanks.

CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Hey nospam. I believe, but am not absolutely positive, that Infiniti's March lease program was carried over through Monday April 4th. I would be more than happy to give you an idea of what its March lease program on the G35x is like. I believe that Infiniti Financial Services' March base lease money factor for this car is .00172 for any length lease. Unfortunately, it is impossible to predict what manufacturers will do with their future incentives with any degree of accuracy. If you don't end up leasing this weekend, please feel free to check back with me in a couple of days and I will tell you what Infiniti's new April lease program is like.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Dennis, if the bank won't fund this deal because the contract states 15,000 miles per year, but it is only a 12,000 miles per year lease one way or another the consumer is probably going to have to sign a new contract. If they really want to, the consumer could probably hold the dealer's feet to the fire and force them to lease the car with 15,000 miles per year at the same price, but that would only save a few dollars per month for additional miles that the lessee probably will not use anyhow.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Hey love330conv. I am sorry to say that I heard that BMW's lease program on its 3-Series convertibles got worse in April. I guess that I am not surprised, considering the fact that in most of the country top-down weather is rapidly approaching. I have not seen the exact details of BMW's April lease program yet though. Please feel free to check back with me in a few days and I should be able to answer any questions that you have about it.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Forks2, the exact policy on this matter probably varies from bank to bank. You definitely should check with the bank that you are leasing your vehicle through to find out for certain before tinting your vehicle's windows. As Dennis mentioned, if done properly, window tint probably would not be a problem, but if the tint was was really really dark, mirror tint, or done poorly (a do it yourself job that is all bubbly), then it might be a problem.

Car_man
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CarMan@Edmunds · April 2005

Hi ltrain. I just went back and looked at the description of this lease that you posted in message #18518. It doesn't appear to me as though you are being given much of a discount on this truck. Always remember that the selling prices of leased vehicles are negotiable, just as if you were paying cash for them. You may want to shop around to see if you can get this truck for less. Also, make sure to stop by the following discussion: "Honda Pilot: Prices Paid & Buying Experience". Tons of community members who are either in the market for or have recently purchased this truck hang out there. You should be able to get a good idea of what sort of price you should pay for the Pilot that you want from them. Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.

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