Subaru Crew - Future Models II

francophile · June 2003

Wow, those guys really like the new Legacy :-) Even so it was a very informative article. Thanks for the link!

Now I have to decide whether to go buy an SVX or save my money...

Cheers,
-wdb

subearu · June 2003

I still think a higher performance Legacy is going to be more than what I'd like to spend, which is right about where the XT (and WRX) is. But, this talk about the XT AT not being as exciting as I expected has me wondering.

I may have to wait and see what the US gets when the Legacy gets introduced. Hopefully pricing will follow shortly after the intro.

I also will still test drive the XT, as I still think it's 'sleeper' factor is quite desireable. That mega moonroof still draws me to it...

-Brian

locke2c · June 2003

manual transmission Legacy H6... now you've got my attention.

-Colin

kens · June 2003

Wow, lots of reading in that write-up! Thanks for the link, Bob.

Ken

ateixeira · June 2003

Papa Bear: chassol is one of the few (only?) XT owner on Edmunds so far, he says the tranny has gotten a lot better with time. So maybe there is something to this adaptive claim.

-juice

subearu · June 2003

Juice: I guess I'm still a bit bummed that it doesn't get VTD. And we still don't really know what 'direct control' is.

-Brian

ateixeira · June 2003

As far as I'm concerned, it's a marketing gimmick. I felt no Direct Control at all, in fact I felt a complete lack of control, more hesitation than anything.

-juice

kens · June 2003

I wonder if Direct Control just refers to the throttle-by-wire.

Yeah, I thought Subaru should have put VTD in the XT given that they position it as the (auto) transmission for their sporty models. Then again, there's really nothing additionally sporty about the XT compared to the X/XS other than the turbo engine.

Ken

sweet_subie · June 2003

so, what is the bottomline, teixeira ?
Forester XT AT is not good ?

rsholland · June 2003

than a non-turbo Forester automatic. If you want a Forester automatic, this is the one I would recommend. If fuel mileage and the cost of fuel (premium vs. regular) is more important than performance, then the choice would be a non-turbo Forester.

Ideally the XT automatic will get, at some point, the 5EAT SportShift (w/VTD) that the all-new '05 Legacy is getting. Hopefully for MY05 or MY06.

Bob

wrxsoon1 · June 2003

So what's up with titling the page "2005 Legacy Wagon" and then not showing any pics of a wagon?

Only complaining because the wagon is by far better looking than the sedan (IMO of course). ;-)

-Ian

ateixeira · June 2003

Not good, no. By itself it's fine, probably the 2nd quickest SUV under $30 grand (the manual being the quickest).

I think my review was harsh because I was fresh out of the manual Forester. It could have been a combination of things. The auto had a greener engine, the tranny had also not adapted to any particular driving style with just 12 miles experience.

The thing is, while I'd still recommend an auto to someone who *must* have an slushbox, I would definitely encourage those waffling between the two to pick the manual.

The auto feels like a good V6. But the manual feels like a good V8.

-juice

sweet_subie · June 2003

is it noisy or as quiet compared to V6 ?
I would get to test drive in 2 weeks

ateixeira · June 2003

I felt it was very quiet, more so than the non-turbo 2.5l. The turbo smooths out the exhaust.

Subaru's H6 is whisper-quiet, though, and it's not that silent.

But I drove a Saturn Vue V6, and that V6 was coarse and loud compared to the 2.5T. So it's much better than Saturn's V6, but not as good as Subaru's own H6.

-juice

sweet_subie · June 2003

even without seeing in person, the new legacy seems to be the only Subaru product without any issues(like no power issue as in OB, space issue as in Forester/impreza & the looks not so contrversial )............
I will be surprised
if i won;t buy one &
i think this will become popular atleast as much as WRX.

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://autos.msn.com/vip/jedlicka.aspx?make=Subaru&model=Impr- eza&src=Home&pos=Edit3

Question: If STI has rear-seats fold down, why not the new legacy ? I remember reading somewhere it says Subaru thinks it is unsafe to do so in legacy

anybody has a clue ?

francophile · June 2003

I've heard two reasons:

1) It stiffens the body at a crucial place, namely right between the rear suspension mounting points.

2) There is an upcoming (US?) law that will forbid fold down seats in sedans. Subaru tends to like to be ahead of the curve on safety stuff like that.

rgds,
-wdb

rsholland · June 2003

http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=519

NZ will be the first country outside of Japan to get the new Legacy. They'll get it at least three months before any other country.

One interesting note: The wagon's cargo shade, when not needed will fit under the cargo floor! Hooray! Finally a carmaker has come up with a solution on where to put this thing, when you don't need it.

Bob

jlemole · June 2003

That's good news on the cargo cover, as mine tends to take up space in the garage, when not in use...and then I forget to ever put it back in the car altogether.

Jon

sweet_subie · June 2003

why is US always the last place for subaru, i am really p***ed off.

ateixeira · June 2003

Cool about the cargo shade. I've just removed the one from my Forester, since I carry big boxes so often.

-juice

cptplt · June 2003

>why is US always the last place for subaru,

because once any car companies engineers are done with a model going to the US market, the 5 million corporate attorneys with experience of US tort laws have to get involved so the company will still be in existence in ten years!

then they also figure the US driver is so naive what do they car about anything except the cupholders!

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/story.html?id=6EB7471D-84- C6-4A54-AA8B-787C180067DC

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/story.html?id=01832527-48- 55-405C-A4E8-C247F175B451

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=reviews&content_code=09093914&Search_Type- =STD&Search_ID=1341705&record=2

ateixeira · June 2003

the Forester can keep up with the Porsche Cayenne S and blow past the Mercedes ML500

OK, you guys aren't helping my XT Envy condition.

The story is a lot of fluff, though, I'm thinking Subaru put an embargo on measured performance data.

Autoweek says the Baja turbo will only come in automatic? Notice they say that with the extra weight it's not as fun as the XT.

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

will be released before the 5-speed is what I've heard. How long before the 5-speed will be released? I don't know.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

OK, Subaru...WHAT IS UP with the packaging lately?

I mean, COME ON. No H6 with a manual tranny. No XT 5 speed with a moonroof. No VTD on the auto XT. No Sportshift on the auto XT. No 5 speed on the Baja at first.

This is getting frustrating. We're being denied the best combinations of equipment. It's maddening because all the parts are on the shelf!

-juice

kens · June 2003

I noticed on the Autoweek article they mentioned "traction control". Bzzzzt! Only pure AWD in the XT!

Perhaps Subaru is afraid of becoming too successful by offering the combinations we all want. ;-)

Ken

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://www.subdriven.com/features/04_legacy/04_legacy.html

Seven new body colors express its sporty, high quality (satin white, arctic white, pearl *, brilliant silver, metallic, Obsidian black pearl, garnet red pearl *, legal blue pearl, Atlantic blue pearl)

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://www.subdriven.com/gallerytk/gallery2.php?mode=album&al- bum=Automobiles/Legacy/2004

http://www.subdriven.com/gallerytk/gallery2.php?mode=album&al- bum=Automobiles/Legacy/2004&start=24

locke2c · June 2003

drool... atlantic blue pearl sounds tasty and the shots (although not in that color, dang) look great.

man I really didn't want another car payment, but what the heck you only live once.

-Colin

sweet_subie · June 2003

me too..........
i am saved upto a $1000 on the SUbaru/mastercard. So, by the time i buy one, i should be getting 1.5k from it. that helps

ateixeira · June 2003

If Colin's talking about the light metallic blue, I've been asking for that for a while now.

I'll have a wagon in that color, huge moonroof, H6 or 2.5T (whichever) with a manual or at least a 5 speed Sport Shift. The latter would be easy to talk my wife into.

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

are over at nasioc, in the Baja forums, for those interested. I think it's the "I just spotted my first Baja Sport," thread, or something like that.

Bob

sweet_subie · June 2003

http://autos.msn.com/advice/standardart.aspx?contentid=4021835&am- p;src=Home&pos=Edit1

ateixeira · June 2003

IMO this site summarizes it best:

http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/need.html

-juice

lucien2 · July 2003

In case there was any doubt, a friend of mine is leasing one in France next week and was wondering if he could bring it back with him. So he called BATF. Whaddaya know, the 206 has been federalized recently! It's all approved in theory, so he is allowed to bring it back if he wants to.....

qbrozen · July 2003

really? i do like the looks of the puegeots... don't know anything about their reliability, resale, etc., though.

heck, it doesn't even appear in the "browse by vehicle" boxes on the left of this page.

ateixeira · July 2003

French makes have a real uphill battle right now, the timing is horrible. Maybe in a couple of years.

-juice

FrankMc · July 2003

and still couldn't make it in the US market... Of course offerings like "Le Car" didn't help them any.

Frank

lark6 · July 2003

I've seen plenty in the last six months, especially last week. ;-) The Peugeot 206 must have front and rear bumpers a foot long to meet crash test requirements, making them look more like the WRC version of the car. About one in three 206s I saw in Paris had dented front quarter panels, I imagine due in no small part to the fact that their front bumpers looked to extend no more than 2 inches from the sheetmetal. Their 406 Pininfarina coupe and 607 large sedan aren't bad looking though.

New generation Citroens - the C2, C3 and Xsara Picasso - are very ovoid and look like rubgy balls. The current crop of Renaults are very unattractive, especially the large Vel Satis and mid-sized Megane (which we dubbed "Migrane"). Very sleek bodies with odd vertical rear windows reminiscent of the Breezeway Mercurys (Mercuries?) of the 1960s. OTOH the Alpine A110s I saw last Saturday are gorgeous in that early-mid-'60s sportscar vein.

Ed

ateixeira · July 2003

My Big Brother just bought one of those Xsara Picassos for his wife. Looks like an egg. Ugliest car on the road there.

They are very roomy though, good 3-across seating.

-juice

lucien2 · July 2003

1st of all, Peugeot in 2003 is not even in the same solar system as Renault 1984. It is one of the most tautly run, successful business turn arounds anywhere in the world in the last 10 years....with the possible exception of........RENAULT! Whadaya know? The products are well designed and very well thought of across the EU. The 307 was European Car of the year in 2002. As for Renault 2003, well we know who is in charge there don't we? As for the designs, well, I stand in the minority on this one AND on BMW. Curent car design language is running damn low on new vocabulary, and these 2 companies are at least taking a stand. For BMW it is flame surfacing and integrating organic shapes into an inorganic form. for Renault, it is picking up the Gallic automotive ball of off-beat styling and curious looks (dropped at the beginning of the 70's) and running with it again. Seems to working, too. I know Bob reads it, but you all should spring for a copy of CAR Magazine (UK) once and awhile. You have no idea what we're missing. (Not only cars, but automotive writing and photography too).

I agree the timing isn't great, but this isn't going to happen tomorrow either. I suspect Peugeot is the farthest along, and is probably at least a year away still. I also doubt the opening markets for Pug, Renault and Alfa will be Souix Falls; LA, NYC, DC more likely, and a less likely to care still about all this French boycott nonsense. Having said that, the only resistance I am getting to French wine this month is because the Euro is beating the living crap out of the dollar, driving prices up (which WILL be an issue for the cars too). All of the freedom-fry-fallutin' jingo-speak that was ringing in my ears in May has completely, utterly vanished in the face of a new American Idol winner and the latest installment of the Terminator franchise. God bless America, indeed.

lark6 · July 2003

I'll stick by my obersvations, Loosh. The Peugeots aren't bad looking, the Citroens are an acquired taste, and I don't find the Renaults at all attractive. For that matter I don't find any of the new Nissans or BMWs attractive either. The Alfas on the other hand are very attractive, especially the 156 Sportwagon and the 147 GTA. The new crop of BMWs look awful; I think you could swap badges on the new 5 series and the new Pontiac Grand Prix and no one would notice.

I cannot speak to the build quality of any of the current French cars or the Alfas.

I read CAR regularly, not every month but almost every month, much to the chagrin of my wife when she sees me bringing home an $8 car mag filled with models we can't buy.

Ed

jlemole · July 2003

There's a large (but independent) quicky oil change place near me in New Jersey (just outside NYC). He's got a big sign out front that says "no longer servicing Peugeot and Renault". Of course he's not losing much business by taking such an insipid stand. But I still think the French cars will still have that extra burden to overcome if they want to re-establish a U.S. presence anytime soon.

Jon

qbrozen · July 2003

My tastes are pretty much in line with Lark. Except for the Z4. I think that is a great looking car. The Z3 made me go "eh, its ok." The Z4 makes me want one! But, yes, if the Alfa Spider were here, there would be no contest in my eyes (test driving might be a different issue, but completely unknown until such a thing could happen).

francophile · July 2003

If Peugeot had been selling cars in the US in 2000, I'd probably still be driving a Peugeot. I had a series of them up until then; a 505 sedan (automatic, ugh), a 405 wagon, and a 505 Turbo sedan. Peugeot ride quality, up until the last time I drove one at any rate, was a very unique, very pleasant experience. They feel soft at first, and they lean a bit in turns, but at some point it dawns on you -- hey, this car isn't even breathing hard here -- and you push it a bit more, and pretty soon you're going like stink with a big smile on your face. And rough roads are a-m-a-z-i-n-g, the car feels like it has been calmly, gently and oh-so slightly lifted while the tires bop away down below, hanging on to the road for dear life. The best way I can describe the ride and handling is that it maintains the car in a constant state of grace. It is very very hard to get a Peugeot to lose its aplomb. And the seats, mon dieu! They are the best I've ever plunked my butt down on. 8-way adjustable -- mechanically, no little motors to burn out -- and this was in the early 80's. Nothing else came close.

The cars didn't have major flaws but did tend to bother you with little stuff. Not up to the level of quality and reliability of a good Japanese or even American car. However, current popular mindset towards BMW notwithstanding, I always have, and still do, believe that -all- European cars will bother their owners with more problems than American or Japanese cars, with the possible exception of some of the Mercedes models. From that point of view I'd put Peugeot among the top of the European crowd for quality and reliability.

But now that I've driven a competent AWD car for a while I don't know if I can go bact to 'mere' 2WD, so if my next car is going to be a Peugeot it will have to be one they don't yet offer -- AND it will have to look better than the '04 Legacy, which at the moment I don't think is possible :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

lucien2 · July 2003

Ed- yea no kidding, I just hide the subscription bill when it comes. Ouch.

As for taste, well, if we all we there same, it'd be pretty boring. I'm with you on the Nissans, but the Bimmers are growing on me. And...I admit it, I really like the new Megane.

jlemole- ok, now THAT is the lamest thing I've heard all season. It's just mean-spirited; "I'm punishing you for the buying decision you made in 1988!" Why stop there? Might as well ditch the Japanese cars too.

francophile- That is true, and Merc is no longer immune. The M class and now the C class are suffering lots of quality control issues. I do think a new Pug 206 GTi would be a more painless new ownership experience than a new Focus SVT, though. Lastly, the new Espace I drove last month for a week made a convincing argument for minivan ownership- I loved having climate control on the door and the radio on a stalk. It just made more sense for me. It was all intuitive and I never had to take my eyes off the road. I just think there is a demographic out there, age 25 to 45 say, that is ready for something different. I imagine the success of the Mini is a window to that. Me personally I'll probably stick with Subies because I am no big fan of FWD and I still autocross (ok MAYBE a 206 GTi), but were it not for my elevated degree of interest in performance driving I would seriously consider one.

lark6 · July 2003

Loosh: One of the best things about CAR is the writing. I am a fan of Jamie Kitman's and I have to say his writing is more no-holds-barred in CAR than it is in the US' Automobile. The writers in CAR do seem to love Subarus; my observation has been that Britons and members of the Commonwealth (Oz/NZ)generally are among the biggest Subie fans on the planet. Here in the colonies we may soon catch up with them. Graham, if you're out there care to corroborate?

Be sure to check out my Alpine photos on nabisco in the Motorsports forum. PM me with a snail mail addy and I'll send you this French Subie mag once I'm done.

Ed

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