Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • ladywclassladywclass Member Posts: 1,713
    I HAVE an outback with cloth and no moonroof ... I just want to have one in the lineup when I'm ready to buy again .. .lol ... and with a daughter in college who KNOWS when I can safely get NEAR the fence !
  • gmanmdgmanmd Member Posts: 20
    I emailed Subaru with respect to the option of a moonroof with no leather and I got this response. It looks as though this will not be an option as Subaru is a "small" company. Overall a nice letter, but unfortunately for those of us who like cloth, it looks like no moonroof as well. As for aftermarket moonroofs as well, does the suspension need to be retuned for the added weight?

    Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your interest in Subaru
    products. As we do not have the specifications for the 2005 Forester models nor
    all of the information on the 2005 Outback models, I cannot speak of their
    specifications.

    As for the 2004 model year, all of the Outback models that are offered with a
    moonroof are also equipped with leather interior. For the 2004 Forester models,
    only the 2004 Forester XS Premium Package is offered with the moonroof and cloth
    seats. This model, however, is only available with an automatic transmission.
    This model is available with leather seats; but, they are optional and the cloth
    seats are standard.

    As most owners, which is not at all meant to lesson your wife's believes, want
    leather seats with the moonroof, you may have to order this model from the
    factory through your dealer. The normal delivery time for a factory ordered
    Forester is anywhere from 8 to 10 weeks. However, if you are interested in this
    vehicle, please reply to this message letting me know what color you are
    interested in, and I would be happy to search for you.

    As for special ordering an Outback or Forester XT with a moonroof without
    leather seats, this is not possible. In order to offer our owners competitive
    prices, we have to limit the options we make available, as we are a relatively
    'small' car company with many different models.

    As for an aftermarket moonroof, the following is Subaru of America's position
    on aftermarket products:

    We do NOT recommend the installation of any aftermarket part into any of our
    vehicles. Doing so may affect your warranty, but only on related failures. Any
    problems caused by the installation or performance of an aftermarket product
    will not be covered by your warranty; thus, you would be responsible for the
    repairs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think a power moonroof only adds 70 lbs or so, not enough to requite recalibrating the suspension.

    -juice
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    I've become increasingly disappointed with VW in recent years though I'd agree that they have a solid line of vehicles (the Passat is a real winner). The reliability is questionable and their service (IMHO) deteriorating, in part I suspect to the sheer volume of problems.

    I trust my by-passing the recently introduced mid-year '04 Passat GLS Wagon 1.8t 4motion (MT) in favor of an in-depth consideration of the '05 Outback will be a good move. I love the 1.8t that is the VW standard, and I'm a little concerned about the power plants in the Outback; I fear the 2.5i in the MT may be a touch too weak and the 2.5t overkill (and energy inefficient).

    Zman
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    But the 1.8T is no bargain either. It's got decent power, but I personally could not justify such a small displacement 4 in a larg car like the Passat, turbo or not. The standard 2.5 H4 in the Outback is pretty good, and it has more of a big engine feel (especially with a manual transmission).

    You can always test drive an 04 Outback to get a feel for the engine. For 05, the engine will be a little smoother and quieter due to a new exhaust design (takes out some of the characteristic rumble of the H4 for more refinment).

    Craig
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Thanks for the tip on KCSM. I didn't even know that show existed! How much footage was there on the new Legacy? Any live shots of it on the road?

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Found this link over at Nabisco:

    http://www.chrisco.nexgenis.com/legacyvsaudi.avi

    It's a Japanese video (subtitled in Chinese) of the Legacy Spec B AT, Legacy Spec B MT, Toyota Caldina, Audi RS6 Avant and Volvo V70 T-5. The cars are raced for 3 laps at Tsukuba with professional drivers.

    The Legacy MT beat out the RS6 Avant. The drivers comment on their experiences and the Legacy drivers kept commenting on how light their vehicles were.

    Ken
  • self_mechanicself_mechanic Member Posts: 95
    The segment lasted about 2 to 3 minutes. It is mostly live shots on the road with display of engine compartment for H6 engine, the moon roof and interior instrument gauges. On Tuesday, the program air before Motor Week. DW Auto, motor and sport is aired 7:00 P.M and Motor Week is air at 7:30 P.M. On Sunday, Motor Week is aired 11:00 A.M and DW Auto, Motor Sport is aired at 11:30 A.M.

    Check out the program at

    www.kcsm.org

    Alland
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Craig,

    You make a worthy observation about the 1.8t in the Passat. I've driven it only in the lighter New Beetle, and in that configuration, it is a very good match. The Passat, however, is bigger and heavier, especially now with the 4-motion, so I am even more inclined towards the Outback.

     That said, I have not tried the '04 Outback, but I have driven the '04 Forester in both the 2.5i and the 2.5t, and it is from those experiences that I make the comments about power. I was especially disappointed with the 2.5i in 4th gear on the hilly roads that comprise most of my driving. By comparison, I was floored (literally) by the turbo; it was a blast to drive--for me. My wife was less impressed.

    Zman
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Maybe you should have let HER drive! :)
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I clicked on your link, and Windows Media Player opens. After about 30 seconds, the 'tape' plays, but I get bubbling water (the "ambience") along with the audio. I cannot figure out how to see the video. Any ideas?

    Steve
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I think the gas mileage estimates for the Outback XT are going to be an important discriminator for many of us. If they are decent (to me that means at least 20mpg city) then the XT will be a no brainer. If the mileage is not good, I would be pushed towards an H6 model myself. I have an 02 LL Bean now with the H6, and I consider it to be the current "no brainer" choice of the lineup. Gets the same or better gas mileage compared to H4 models, is quieter and smoother, and has more power. Unfortunately, Subaru does not offer the H6 with a manual transmission. That would be pretty awesome if they did. And in the 05 models, it looks like you can't get the H6 without moving upmarket to the Bean/VDC models (for 04 you can get a base H6 model). So I think the XT is going to be the mainstream model for the people who want power, price, and a manual transmission. Hope the gas mileage is good....

    Craig
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    So far all we've seen is a short list of standard features for these models. Let's hope, that on the factory option list, a moonroof will be optional for the base Legacy GT and base Outback XT.

    Bob
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    Hey All,

    I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has kept my father and family in prayer and sending positive thoughts. God's been listening...

    My father went to see the surgeon and he reviewed my father's condition/situation. The surgeon doesn't think my father has a hernia in the esophagus but want's to see what caused my father's red blood cells to go as low as it did. My father will be going under another test this week to pin point and rule out everything the doctor previously told him (when hospitalized).

    Dad has taken into realization that God's grace is why he's still alive today.

    Thank you all again for your emails and support!

    I returned last night with my wife and son, believing that God is taking care of everything else.

    Well... back to Subaru news.. I guess nothing exciting yet until March huh?
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    Hope the news about your father continues being positive.

      Cheers Pat.
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Elm-

       Glad to hear things are looking up for your Dad.

    As for Subaru news, March is right around the corner.

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, Ken. Take that Audi. How much does that RS6 Avant cost? :o)

    I think VW's 1.8T is OK with a manual, but it's slow with the Tiptronic in the Passat, probably worse with 4Motion (SloMotion?).

    The 2.5l boxer mates up better to an automatic, IMO.

    My friend has a wagon with the tip and the 1.8T, he's had to chip *both* the engine and the tranny to get decent pulling power from it. That's $800 plus extra and no warranty on the engine or transmission.

    Good news Elm.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    And welcome back! Try to get to a nabisco meet one of these days! I'm sure the baby is taking up a lot of your time now. :-)

    -Dennis
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Steve: You probably are missing the right video codec to play back the clip. For starters, try going to the Windows Meida website and loading the codec. I'm not sure what encoding is used on this clip, but you might try going to the DIVX website.

    A few more notes on the video:
    - The driver in the MT Legacy comments at the start how he wishes it came with the 6MT, but he's happy with 20ps advantage over the 5EAT Legacy.
    - The driver in the Volvo complains about too much wheelspin in the turns.
    - The Audi driver notes how the vehicle handles pretty well even though it's 50kg heavier than the Legacy.
    - The Caldina and Legacy AT seemed to be pretty well matched. The drivers noted that the Legacy did have the handling and torque edge, however.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru was always the underdog.

    Reading more reviews like these is going to be fun. :o)

    -juice
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Craig,

    I can't imagine how they're going to get the fuel efficiency on the OXT to the 20mpg city range (I assume the OXT is going to be somewhat heavier than the current FXT, which I think manages only 17 or so).

    Ditto on the H6 MT. Oh well, what are you going to do?

    Juice,

    I have not driven the 2.5i boxer in the AT, but it was disappointing to me in the MT (Forester, not Outback). Hence, I have to figure the 2.5i (MT) in the '05 OB will be about the same.

    Elm,

    My thoughts too for you and your dad.

    Zman

    p.s. What is "nabisco?"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, if you look at the gearing, the OB XT will probably get mileage similar to the F-XT.

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    Is an irreverent name for the Impreza owners club.

      Cheers Pat.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    nabisco = nasioc = nasioc.com = North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club. There's lots of avid Subie folks there. It's a good crowd that compliments this site nicely. Many of the members there are much younger than audience found here however. Enter at your own risk. ;)

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    "Nabisco" => NASIOC (North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club) => formerly known as i-club.

    Ken
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    Enter at your own risk, that's putting mildly, unlike Edmunds some of the forums over there can get downright ugly.

     I regularly check the classifieds over there and sometimes have to chuckle at the lowball offers for stuff and at some of the more blistering replies.

     Cheers Pat.
  • pon1pon1 Member Posts: 196
    or 1001 ways to void your warranty.

    Someone reported there this week on about an easy 300hp on the dyno so far from a lightly modded Forester XT. That caught my interest, though the standard XT is quite enough car for me.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know, as I've had the unfortunate opportunity to participate in several.

    On the flip side, there are some folks over there who seem to have the inside track on a lot of new stuff. There are some really good people over there. Finding them can be a problem.

    Glenn Wallace (currently placing 4th in the Alcan Rally I believe) is one. Paul Hansen and Anthony (both from apexjapan.com) are two more. There are several others too: Seth, username, Jon [in CT], Mo plus a bunch more that I can't recall at the moment.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The new Legacy 2.5i just won AA Autocar's Car of the Year Award.

    http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=606

    Bob
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    What bugs me about Nabisco is that there are a lot of inexperienced drivers and young car guys over there, and it's tough to tolerate that crowd sometimes. I used to read the electrical and car audio forums on a regular basis, but got really irritated at all the people blowing fuses and frying their electricals because of dumb mistakes. I've made my share of dumb mistakes, but some of the ones you read about on Nabisco are real doozies. I get tense just reading them! Same goes for the other forums.

    That said, there are a bunch of great people over there too, it's just harder to find them! We're lucky, everyone here is nice and everyone has good stuff to share. And over here, we can laugh at our dumb mistakes!

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The difference is Edmunds is well moderated, plus the members are generally more mature. We filter out the trolls much quicker, too.

    -juice
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    That sounds great. As the article says, it keeps winning awards all over the world. The one thing that caught my eye though:
    "The Legacy also won the Sunday Star Times large car class award."
    I never thought of the Legacy as a large car class. I can't wait to test it out here.

    Mark
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    *Large cars* are much smaller in markets outside North America.

    Bob
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Elm - glad to hear that the situation is improving with your dad.

    Ken - thanks. I tried upgrading Windows Media Player to the latest (v9.0), but still getting, as you suggested a 'cannot load codec' error, and it won't play the video. I went to the Microsoft site, but it looks like other plug-ins are extra cost items. Oh well....

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, same in Brazil. Pleo would be small, Impreza mid-size, and Legacy large. The Outback is a flat-out luxury car there.

    A large-for-USA car like the Crown Vic would only be used as a limo, driven by a chauffer.

    Keep in mind minimum wage is about US $100/month and gas costs about $3/gallon.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's interesting to note that all the pictures off the '05 LL Beans show 2-tone models, with the lower cladding in the second color. The JDM LL Bean Forester is the same way too. I'm wondering if the 2-tone color scheme will become the LL Bean visual signature, meaning all LL Beans will be 2-tone?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's funny, I used to not like the 2-tone so much, but I think Subaru picked better color schemes on the pre-production 2005s. I kind of like it now.

    Dunno, maybe I just like the new design more.

    -juice
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    This is the first I saw/heard:
    "and higher towing capacity—up to 3,000 lbs. with the 6-cylinder engine." on the OB from MSN Chicago Show news.

    Hopefully that will be an across the board increase.

    Makes sense for different markets, different size classifications.

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think we've seen 2700 lbs for the others, 3000 lbs for the H6.

    Oddly, the H6 is geared so tall, and torque peaks at higher rpm than the turbo.

    Plus the turbo gets bigger brake rotors, and short gears for crawling. Shouldn't the turbo be the best tow vehicle?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    What I've heard was 3000 for H-6 models as well, and 2700 for all H-4s, including the turbo. I would think the H-4 turbo, with it superior torque would be Subie's towmiester.

    Bob
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Maybe they feel that a Turbo is not ideally suited for towing, more for performance? Either way, the 2700/3000 is an increase, finally.

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look at the final drive ratios...the turbos get the short gearing.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    at the Philly show, from one of Patti's cohorts, is that they may be concerned about the turbo overheating, although he wasn't certain.

    Bob
  • simon_txsimon_tx Member Posts: 42
    Some of you veteran Suabru followers please explain the lineup to me.

    I view tre Outback as the more rugged performance oriented vehicle and the Legacy as the model that would be more refined urban automobile.

    Yet the Legacy is not available with the H6, which would make it more comparable to most vehicles now sold to suburban families and instead gets a turbocharged H4?

    Personally, I would think the Legacy would be a better car and more competitive if it were offered with the H6.

    I don't understand the concept of the tubocharged 4 cylinder auto in car that size. If the gas mileage is worse and the perceived power is not that much better than the H6, then what's the point.

    Does anyone see the Legacy ever getting an H6 version?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The H6 is heavier, though, and that hurts performance and balance. It's also more expensive.

    They put the H6 in their SUV-fighter, the Outback. In that class 6 cylinders are the norm, 8 cylinder are optional. I'm talking about Explorers, Grand Cherokees, and TrailBlazers.

    The Legacy will battle with the Audi A4, most of those come with the 1.8T (4 cyl turbo). The Acura TSX also comes with a 2.4l 4 cylinder. Only the Mazda 6s comes with a V6 in that "smallish but sporty" segment.

    I think it makes sense.

    The Outback turbo is, IMO, the odd ball in the lineup. Though I guess you could say it'll compete with the Volvo XC70 2.4T and the Audi allroad quattro 2.7T.

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    One of the biggest doozies I read over at Nabisco was in the tire and wheels thread, guy buys 04 STI and then takes a pair of pliars to roll his fenders, he was complaining about the paint chipping when he was doing this.

      Cheers Pat.
  • simon_txsimon_tx Member Posts: 42
    Ok.

    But is performance the real selling point for the Legacy? I can't imagine the H6 degrades performance that much for the average buyer.

    However, I do see your point on the added weight and cost. I also agree on the Ouback turbo - adds to my confusion.

    When I look at Subaru, I see a lot of cars that don't quite fit in the categories they are trying to compete in - while it does make them stand out, I think it also will continue to limit their mass appeal.

    IMO - the Impreza line is the only one that directly attacks the other automakers - in other words, I can see how it directly compares to other cars in that class.

    The other Subaru's seem to be presented as an alternative to the norm in the other classes - while that can be good, it also makes the buyer work harder to figure out if the special features Suabaru offers are worth it - there are more lazy car buyers than exhaustive researchers - I think that hurts Subaru.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Pat: some people are just not worthy owners! Unreal.

    Simon: maybe not now, but for the 2005 Legacy GT I'd say absolutely Yes, performance will be the #1 selling point, like it is for the WRX.

    Subaru is a niche seller, so they're not trying to head-to-head, just offering an alternative to mass market vehicles in each segment.

    -juice
  • I have to agree with you, simon_tx. If I were shopping for a sedan today, I would look at the loaded Accord, Legacy, Altima, and 6. The Legacy is the only one without a 6-cylinder engine available, but it's the only one with AWD. As my lifestyle changes (less skiing and a baby coming), my need for AWD and passenger/cargo space is changing. The smooth, powerful nature of the Accord V6 would probably win me over.

    If the next Legacy is priced in the low 30s, then it also has to compete against the BMW 3 series, the Acura TL, and the Infiniti G35 AWD, all of which are VERY nice vehicles.

    For my personal tastes and needs out of a sedan, I'd like to see the Legacy get a little larger and sport a bigger 6-cylinder versus staying the same size and utilizing a turbocharged plant. But I'm just one buyer...
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