Subaru Crew - Future Models II

miksmi · March 2001

WDB, my thoughts exactly - steel on steel, they must be nuts. But what an implementation!

I hadn't considered CVT's impact on engine design, i.e., tuning an engine for a narrow power band. Wow, further decoupling of the driver from the machine.. electric motors at each wheel, an acceleration lever a la diesel-electric locomotives, here we come!

And thanks for working cupholder into the discussion

Did you read Mark Wan's site about the Nissan Extroid CVT? Thoughts on Nissan's roller design vs. Audi's chain?

..Mike

leomort · March 2001

What is rally racing? I've heard of NASCAR and INDY 500 racing. Is this dirt track racing or something? I take it AWD is important is this type of driving? (told you it was a stupid question)

Leo

bluesubie · March 2001

I don't know where to begin. It's pretty much opposite of Nascar. It's on every type of terrain (mud, snow, ice, asphalt, desert) and the cars are timed. It doesn't go round and round and the spectators stand near the road. There's a US Pro-Rally (www.scca.org) and a World Pro Rally. The world rally is sanctioned by the FIA. Here's a good site with World Rally info: http://www.rally-live.com/en/

Subaru won the manufacturers championship 3 times in the mid-90's.

Dennis

vadp · March 2001

2001 Television Schedule

Monte Carlo Mon, Apr 9 9pm ET, 10pm PT
International Swedish Rally Mon, Apr 23 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally of Portugal Mon, May 7 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Catalunya Rally Mon, May 21 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally of Argentina Mon, Jun 4 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally of Cyprus Mon, Jun 18 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Acropolis Rally Mon, Jul 9 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Mid Season Review Mon, Jul 23 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Safari Rally Mon, Aug 13 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally Finland Mon, Sep 10 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally of New Zealand Mon, Oct 8 9pm ET, 10pm PT
San Remo Rally Mon, Oct 22 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally of France (Corsica) Mon, Nov 5 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Rally Australia Mon, Nov 19 9pm ET, 10pm PT
Network Q Rally (Britain) Mon, Dec 10 9pm ET, 10pm PT
End of Season Review Mon, Dec 17 9pm ET, 10pm PT

ramon · March 2001

I see.... hahahah RTFM now I get it! you guys kill me!

leomort · March 2001

what type of brakes will it have? front/rear disc brakes w/ ABS?

Leo

vadp · March 2001

front disks/rear drums with ABS.

ramon · March 2001

3 WRX sedans arrived yesterday. Saw them this morning when I brought my car in for maintenance. Boy those WRXs are loud! Even with their stock exhaust, it is almost as loud as my Borla.
Look pokemon as usual. Seats are nice as usual. The 16" wheels look dinky on the new dsign. The wheel well is very large. Worse than the RS. The guys prepping the cars still thinks that my RS is prettier. yay!

All are sold. Lucky pricks!
OK you might not like this, but the MOMO steering wheel doesn't feel as meaty as the RS/Legacy GT leather ones. Why? It feels good. But it does not have a good feel. It feels hard. It's like a leather wrap on some hard plastic wheel. Me don't like.
Overall the car is good and it will be a great seller. I am not stupified by it because I have yet to taste the 227hp pumping. Wait till May when i get to thrash one then I'll give a better review. My car had the opportunity to be parked momentarily with a silver WRX and they were a few customers walking around and they were drawn to my car than the WRX.... Hmm... Oh yes it is taller than the older model.
Did I say the car is loud! It's a nice growl tho. It gives a much better sound than the wimpy exhaust from the stock Imprezas. It is not obnoxiously loud. Just nice for me. If it werent' for the restrictive nature of stock exhausts I would leave it alone because the sound level is just nice.

barresa62 · March 2001

Nice bits of info but you and I know the real test (for proper perspective that is) is to drive a stick WRX. Very different car than the new RS and significantly faster (when turbo kicks in) and structurally more solid than 01' and older RS.

BTW, my WRX wagon will be ready for p/u on Mon, 3/26. Just got the call from my salesguy today!

Stephen

ramon · March 2001

I suggest you install a really good alarm for your WRX! There's cases of stolen WRX in Canada already! Yikes!

Make mine a Pearl White STi WRX wagon!

kostamojen2 · March 2001

Really? At idle you could barely hear the car! And until you hit the 4000rpm line, its rather quiet... Especially inside! :P

ramon · March 2001

it's a good sound dude. It's not meant to slide it. it growls loud whenever you step on the pedal. better sounding than the regular imprezas...IMHO.

paisan · March 2001

I have to agree, it's almost silent compared to the RS. Until you hit 3500rpms and the turbo kicks in. Maybe they have some special mufflers north of the border!

-mike

ramon · March 2001

cus that exhaust note was rumbling like no other stock exhaust Impreza I know of. yes a 2.5RS stock exhaust is much more quieter than the growl of the WRX. It's not overly loud but you definitely know this ain't no regular car!

leomort · March 2001

but how does the Forester do with light off-road duties? Looking at gravel or dirt back country roads and also getting up onto logging roads. Should I get skid plates and rear differential protector plates?

Leo

ateixeira · March 2001

Leo: you said "light", so my answer is "just fine". So long as you don't expect to climb any boulders, it'll be fine on things like sand, gravel, grass, etc.

Check out some photos I took here:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1400062

Open the Forester Photos album, then look at photos 1, 3, 5 (modded heavily), 12, and 15. The last two are mine in action.

I have the rear diffy protector plate and I'm impressed with how sturdy it is. You can also get aluminum plates for the front, and, if needed, taller springs.

-juice

paisan · March 2001

I'd definitely get the diffy. My dealer will order any factory or PIOs @ dealer invoice for the buyer so for $65 you can get that. Front skid plate would be nice if you plan on doing it often. 1 oz of prevention is worth a 1 lb of cure!

-mike

texsubaru · March 2001

Leo, I've driven my Forester along a pretty darn minimal, small and twisty BLM dirt road (mostly dirt, some it was just bare rock) outside of Moab, Utah, and it was fine. I wouldn't try to jump logs or boulders in it, nor would I be altogether comfortable striking off cross-country on a roadless stretch of desert in it. But on a dirt or gravel road that isn't too badly washed out or too deeply rutted (keeping in mind you don't have the ground clearance of, say, a Land Cruiser), I'd think you'd be fine. I do have the rear diffy protector; don't know for sure if it's ever actually protected me from anything yet, but it does provides some decent peace of mind at a relatively low cost.

texsubaru · March 2001

First time I've posted since they added the flags. Wish I could have a Lone Star flag rather than generic USA, but there doesn't seem to be a "Republic of Texas" listed on the profile's country pull-down list, alas ...

miksmi · March 2001

Republic of Texas LOL!

..Mike

leomort · March 2001

thanks guys:

No, I'm not looking to jump logs or climb over rocks. Since I hunt, I was looking to see if it would pull double duty. Need to pull up into dirt/gravel roads and parking lots and logging roads during winter (ie snow and/or mud conditions) here in western Pennsylvania. Let's say my Toyota Paseo didn't do a very good job at pulling up into the dirt/gravel parking lots on the state games here during the winter. Forget about logging roads if they weren't dry. Hoping the Forester would do better on those wet, muddy and/or snow covered logging roads. Don't need to drive far back on them, just enough to get me off the main drag. Main concern is not get stuck on the wet, muddy logging roads or snow cover gravel/dirt parking lots. Sometimes they can be mud holes. Very light duty work. Forester looks like the vehicle to fill the niche. Has enough cargo space for my hunting gear and maybe even haul that buck if I get lucky

Then there's fishing, but that's not nearly as demanding duties.

Leo

leomort · March 2001

thanks guys:

No, I'm not looking to jump logs or climb over rocks. Since I hunt, I was looking to see if it would pull double duty. Need to pull up into dirt/gravel roads and parking lots and logging roads during winter (ie snow and/or mud conditions) here in western Pennsylvania. Let's say my Toyota Paseo didn't do a very good job at pulling up into the dirt/gravel parking lots on the state games here during the winter. Forget about logging roads if they weren't dry. Hoping the Forester would do better on those wet, muddy and/or snow covered logging roads. Don't need to drive far back on them, just enough to get me off the main drag. Main concern is not get stuck on the wet, muddy logging roads or snow cover gravel/dirt parking lots. Sometimes they can be mud holes. Very light duty work. Forester looks like the vehicle to fill the niche. Has enough cargo space for my hunting gear and maybe even haul that buck if I get lucky

Then there's fishing, but that's not nearly as demanding duties.

Leo

lucien2 · March 2001

This from the Legacy boards over at i-Club (remember that the Legacy forum is a pretty sane, balanced group of slightly older demographic. Nor unlike this place.)

"I was watching speedvision and they were doing a spread on the Audi All-road (or whatever) that was a 2.7L twin turbo putting out 260 hp or so... so FHI should be able to bring the B4 over, right?
I have to disagree with the sentiment that the WRX be the guage for SOA to determine if the B4's will be brought over. I think the market for the two isnt similar enough to warrant a viable comparison.
Bah, I'm jealous of those with B4's, Turbos, and the yuppies who will enjoy the feel of the twin turbo All-road. SOA needs to get their [non-permissible content removed] in gear...
Mike
(my 2.5 needs a turbo... bad.)"

Food for thought.....

ateixeira · March 2001

You Texans crack me up. Don't mess with Texas! :-)

Leo: I'm sure the Forester would be fine for those conditions. Though for hauling a buck I'd pick an ST-X any day. The Forester's roof can only hold 150lbs, and I can't imagine you'd like the smell if it were inside.

I disagree with that Legacy owner. Let the WRX be the gauge! It's already succeeded!

What else would be the guage? The current Legacy GT? Forget it - the Outback outsells it 3 to 1.

If the WRX is not the guage, we'll never see a Legacy turbo.

-juice

paisan · March 2001

That's my motto! Let's see a beefed up 3.0l H6 in the Legacy GT!

-mike

lucien2 · March 2001

Juice sounds like Seinfeld: " Let the WRX be the gauge! It's already succeeded! What else would be the guage?"

)

I agree with you, actually. I'll take the guage that is already pegged, thanks very much!

ateixeira · March 2001

Put the turbo in the GT, the H6 in the SUV-ish Forester and Outback. To me it just makes more sense this way.

The Forester and Outback have to tow and haul gear. We're still not sure if the WRX can tow at all!

The GT hauls something else.

-juice

paisan · March 2001

The people IMHO who will be targeted for the Legacy GT are 30-60yo americans. Who grew up on muscle cars, and larger displacement engines w/o turbos. They prefer to see a 6 cylinder 3.0l than a smaller turboed engine. I don't care what anyone says, the 6s give you more seat of the pants acceleration than the 2.0l turbos any day of the week.

-mike

ateixeira · March 2001

SOTP, yes, because most people won't rev beyond 4000 rpm on a daily basis anyway. Down there, the H6's displacement wins, but it has to be geared right (the VDC is too tall geared).

I wonder which engine is more expensive to produce?

-juice

paisan · March 2001

Is more expensive to build and service. Don't forget americans don't like to do oil changes at the proper intervals, etc, etc. The turbo is great for a sports car, where the user generally knows the proper care. But for something mainstream aimed at a generally lazier market, the NA version is probably more reliable and cheaper for SOA in the end. Also SOTP tests is what sells cars. You can spout 0-60 #s, HP figures, etc. etc. But in the end the SOTP test is what will sell the cars.

-mike

ateixeira · March 2001

For a mainstream model, you're probably right.

But for a performance model, like a Blitzen, for example, good press is essential, so the numbers play a far bigger role.

Guess it depends on what they want to offer.

-juice

francophile · March 2001

Paisan, you have the age right--I'm 39 and counting, just like Jack Benny --but not what cars I grew up on. I drove sports cars and Minis and Bimmer and VW sedans (if you can call a Beetle a sedan) and funny looking Saabs. Mostly 4 cylinders, a couple of 6 cylinder cars. Once, I actually owned a V8. But just once.

I'm not saying that every would-be Legacy owner is like me. What I'm saying is that the folks who want displacement can find it with no trouble under the hoods of Chevy Impalas and sported up Ford pickup trucks and the like. Folks who gravitate towards Subies are not folks looking for big engines.

The way I see it, the difference between a (twin?) turbo 4 and a larger displacement 6 is one of intended market. If they want to engender a more luxurious image then the 6 is the motor they should go with; if they want a sporting image then go with a turbo 4. Take my Peugeot 505 as an example. In 1988 one could purchase a Peugeot 505 sedan with: a normally aspirated 4 cylinder motor; a V-6; a turbo 4 (the most powerful engine of the 3). Those 3 models came with very different options too: the normally aspirated 4 was sturdy and workmanlike; the V-6 had luxury appointments; the turbo 4 had most of the luxury stuff plus a sport-tuned suspension, wider wheels and tires, and a cute little lip spoiler on the back edge of the trunk. Each iteration of the car was tailored to the type of buyer being targeted. This is pretty typical stuff, I know :-)

IMHO Subie is not going to sell enough Legacy GT's to justify having both engines available in a sporting model. They have to choose between the luxury approach or the sporting approach. Speaking solely for myself I sure hope they choose the sporting approach. Then again, if they want to hang a couple of turbos off the 6, I won't complain! But from a practical standpoint I don't think I'll ever see that. A turbo 2.5? Maybe...

Cheers,
-wdb

ateixeira · March 2001

Well, there is no question that the WRX launch was far, far more successful than the VDC. VDCs are being given away at below invoice prices already, while customers are waiting in line to pay (in some cases) above MSRP.

So it seems to me that the sporty approach beat the luxury approach hands down.

-juice

paisan · March 2001

You are not the typical american buyer. For you, SOA will target the WRX. SOA also shouldn't be targeting their current audience. Why court the girl you already have? They need to expand out and reel in new customers, not cater to the old ones.

Also don't forget the turbos aproximately suck with the 4EAT, I can tell you that they really don't kick in well until you are well into the 4K RPM range. Most of the people who are going to buy a Legacy GT are going to be getting the auto-tranny, so you have to look at the SOTP test with a 4EAT and say "would I buy a Legacy GT with the 4EAT + Turbo?"

-mike

ateixeira · March 2001

Gotta be careful, though - don't want to venture into the mainstream too much. Remember what happened when they tried to take on Honda and Toyota?

Quirky is good. And profitable.

-juice

locke2c · March 2001

I think maybe you're talking about throttle response and not seat-of-the-pants performance.

A 2.0L turbo can get better gas mileage on the highway than a naturally aspirated 3.0L. In vacuum-- which nearly all highway cruising will be-- the low compression 2.0 turbo isn't using much fuel at all.

I think a lot of the turbo lag can be resolved with higher compression and lower boost. This ultimately costs peak HP, but you can certainly make 227HP from a 9:1 2.0L making ... say 8-10psi. The lag could further be reduced by using a better turbocharger-- the Mitsubishi TD04L used on the WRX is nothing special at all. A Garrett GT25 would have been a much better choice-- much more expensive though.

All in all the WRX is an excellent vehicle for the money. More money could build a better car, absolutely. I do think that besides R&D a 2.5L turbo wouldn't cost significantly more than a 2.0L turbo and would perform better in every way.

-Colin

ateixeira · March 2001

There has to be a catch with more less boost and higher compressions. Let me guess: the best gas is an absolute requirement?

-juice

francophile · March 2001

That can be a good matchup, because autos don't have the big dropoff between shifts and so can be set up to keep the turbo spinning (although the mind reels at the positive prospects of a turbo + CVT matchup). I'm unclear on your reference to the "SOTP test"; did someone finally do a write-up of an auto WRX, or *any* WRX besides the 5MT sedan for that matter? Because I'd really, really like to read a road test of the auto, and one for either version of the wagon too. If you could point me to them I'd appreciate it.

Speaking of road tests, I came across an interesting website last night. www.crazydriving.net has videos of all kinds of cars going fast under all kinds of conditions. There's a British road test of the new WRX under their "Test Drives" section. Beware though, there are some VERY large files on the site.

I see your point about the the WRX being aimed at me. Among all the Subies available today, that is the car they want me to want. However the back seat and trunk aren't quite big enough, and the appointments are probably a bit too econocar for my tastes. Neither of those would stop me from buying a WRX, but both would cause me to shop among competing brands before settling for a WRX. It is a brilliant car, perfectly executed IMHO; I'm sorely tempted, and if I hadn't just bought a new car last year I'd probably be rationalizing why I bought one at this very moment ;-) But I'm not in a hurry to replace my GT with one. I might do it, in a year or two, but I hope that by then I'll have something more in the Legacy lineup to choose from. Hence my constant harping on these boards :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

paisan · March 2001

Seat of the pants Test!

I test drove an Automatic WRX for about 1/2hr the other day by myself. And I was totally un-impressed with it's performance.

-mike

locke2c · March 2001

No juice, the catch is highly accurate fuel delivery and ignition timing. This takes a more expensive ECU of course... Case in point, the Audi TT Quattro's 225HP 20v 1.8L uses a 9.0:1 compression ratio. (the 150/170HP versions in other VW/Audi platforms are 9.3:1)

Premium fuel is a given at a certain specific output (HP/liter), no doubt of that.

-Colin

lucien2 · March 2001

I gotta go with the turbo on this GT issue, too. I hear you, paisan, but the demographic for B4 Legacy is the same as an S4 Avant, and VW doesn't seem to worried about American oil change intervals on those puppies. Ditto Volvo T5-equipeed cars. Even the garden variety Passat has one, AND needs high octane fuel. Hasn't exactly hurt sales around here, though.

You are right about the tranny though. then again, soob already has a good one overseas...we just don't get to have it!

ateixeira · March 2001

Colin: I thought the more powerful TT also added an intercooler.

I believe all Passats require premium fuel.

-juice

locke2c · March 2001

Yeah, added one as in it had one and the 225HP version has two. Weird.

Anyway, that's not the point at all. The point is that it's very possible to have an engine that runs very well with high compression and boost.

-Colin

barresa62 · March 2001

If you want the most excitement for the buck stay w/the 5spd. The auto. was totally unimpressive to me (well, more so than my 00'OB Ltd!) and really changes the nature of the beast, too much so for me and for most of the core WRX buyers. Still, w/the auto. one is going to get a quick car but a few quirks like the "hunting for the right gear" that drive me crazy.

BTW, got my 5spd silver WRX wagon last night. Posted a short (ok, relative term) impression under Meet The Members.

Stephen

bluesubie · March 2001

Also, the new plant being built in Indiana will be producing H4's not 6's. Could there be that big of a demand for n/a H4's? Or could there indeed be some surprises in store?

Dennis

ateixeira · March 2001

Can you say "2.5l turbo"?

That would be sweet.

-juice

paisan · March 2001

Isn't the S4 using a 2.7l v6 bi-turbo? If so there is a v6. The other thing is that there is no way no way that people here in the US will put the Leg. GT in a class with the S4. Just as the VDC isn't in the same class as the other high end vehicles...

-mike

miksmi · March 2001

Loosh, paisan, speaking of the S4 Avant, I think this Washington Post article should be required reading for SoA Product Planning: This Wagon Hauls, in More Ways Than One. The Post is not exactly an enthusiast's periodical and in this article Warren Brown relates how a mainstream consumer, a woman with a dog, needs the S4 Avant. Substitute "Subaru" for "Audi" and "B4 Touring Wagon" for "S4 Avant" and ship it to SoA Product Planning

Agreed, turbo GT.

..Mike

miksmi · March 2001

Oops, did I rain on the parade?

Hehe, I must of jumped in too late.

Read that Post article; when I read it, all I could think is Subaru's market is described right here in this article.

..Mike

paisan · March 2001

Hey guys, the Axiom is gonna give the OB a run for it's money. It's bigger, more powerful, handles slightly (but not much) worse, can tow 5K lbs, and you can see the interior and exterior temps at the same time! Real car like ride on it, even has an adjustable suspension.

-mike

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