Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Aside from the hybrid powertrain, I don't think it would take a whole lot to get this production-ready. Honda and Acura are famous for showing thinly disguised production vehicles as show cars. They did it with the Ridgeline, Civic, RL and others. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's the case here too.

    I'm betting we are looking at the next (B5) Impreza, with just a few tweaks here and there.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    On that I agree. It's a pretty good indicator that we will see an Impreza with fewer doors.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103251
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Huh? The Edge models' front grille, bumper underbuard, side sill garnish(!), roof rail and wheels will "play a significant role in altering one's mind set."
    Wow. Either the marketing guys have been sniffing some rubber cement fumes or they've got a sick sense of humor. The only way those extras would "alter my mind set" would be when I saw how much extra those visual "improvements" cost. Although in the long run, "psychological restoration" in this form may be cheaper than paying a psychiatrist's fees.
    Personally, I'd be more likely to achieve psychological restoration after driving that Blitzen wagon. Definitely gotta agree with ya on the Blitzen, juice, though I could live without the bling-inducing wheels.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The whole release is written in Japanglish. Don't try to make sense of it, you'll go dizzy. :D

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    I really think Subaru is on to something good here.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    drives the B5!

    http://www.highlander68k.co.uk/my07/sm07.pdf

    Lots of info here!

    Bob
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    that's nice.

    Bob, pick an expensive place to dine, Juice really missed this one lol.

    John
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Nah, I'll be gentle. ;)

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    • The wheelbase of 2,670mm is the same as the current 105.1" wheelbase of the Legacy and Outback.

    • The overall length of 4465mm is the same as the 06 Impreza - 175.8".

    • the height is at 59.1" (1500mm) tall, which is exactly the same height as the Outback 3.0R L.L Bean sedan

    Also, according to Paul Hanson, Subaru may drop the "Impreza" name all together.

    Bob
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    but wow that B5 is a hottie at 42.5 mpg and 260bhp and 246 torque.

    bob, i hated the earlier rear pics that were posted at nabisco that were indoors but these outdoor pics look fantastic.

    once again WOW :)
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    is 2 years too early for a dealer waiting list? :)

    and the torque is actually 249
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    he didnt get to drive it, subaru had one of their drivers do the honors.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    from edmunds inside line...

    What the B5-TPH isn't, Subaru is keen to stress, is the next Impreza. This funky concept — part coupe, part wagon, part SUV — is "purely a show car," the company said.


    i am so glad they arent coming out with a 42.5 mpg car and will coming out with a 20 something combined mpg car :mad:
  • chassolchassol Member Posts: 95
    The Subaru B5-TPH looks great awesome, BUT the competition is putting out for '07 models (in '06) at 40 MPG+ and under $20K.

    The B5-TPH looks like it could match the MPG, BUT at under $20K? - I don't think so.

    I know the R 2 & R 1 are not hybrids (however check out http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=1233&nl=y# ), but they have high MPG and a Super Charged version and it can (supposedly) right now meet the tough U.S. Motor Vehicle crash tests AND at under $20K.

    Subaru does not have many, if any, "true" 30 MPG all wheel drive vehicles. They really need to wake up to the R 2 or R 1 as a "very extremely soon" vehicle in the USA & Canada.

    If this - http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-09-28-nissan_x.htm - is any indication they really need to do it in the next year or be prepared to play expensive catchup.

    As long as gasoline stays above $2.50 (I personally think this amount is here to stay - permanently) there will be a continuing need for high MPG cars.

    Any one else have any thoughts on this too?
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Maybe that's a good thing, swampy. This could be an offering in addition to Impreza. Sort of a Forester coupe. :) It's the guts of the thing that I want them to bring to market ASAP.

    I searched the forum for the chart of upcoming models (from Jon in CT?), but couldn't locate it quickly. Anyone recall if the B5 shows up on the chart? Wasn't there some mention of utilizing the Legacy platform for additional production vehicles that we assumed would mean a Saab use?
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Anyone else do a double take and think that there was a hood scoop on the B5?

    image

    It's the gaurdrail behind it! LOL!

    Ken
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Regarding competitors, sure you can get the combination of reasonable price and great gas mileage, but can you do both while offering B5's kind of performance numbers? Everything else, I agree with you on. Subaru says its hybrid system is substantially less expensive, so let's say it's only $2500 extra instead of $4000-5000. (That would make a WRX w/hybrid technology about $28k MSRP.)

    At a 15k-miles/year average, I'm calculating about $600/year in gas savings with 42mpg instead of 27mpg and with gas at $3/gallon. So it'd take a little over 4 years to recoup the extra $2500, which would make it a much better deal than current hybrids. Of course the $2500 is speculation, as is gas holding at $3/gallon for 4 years, but it gives ya an idea.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Heh heh. It got me for a second too, Ken.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Boy was I ever wrong...

    and happy to be so wrong!

    Comments on the B5:

    Don't like those wheels, too busy
    Grille is also busy
    I like the headlights, Lexus GS-ish
    Not sure I like the doors dipping below the rocker panel
    Profile looks HAWT
    Rear is much less successful
    Steering wheel looks like the Civic's
    Interior is plasticky
    what's with the lime green? Concept, OK
    check out the alligator carpets
    NAV screen is there
    looks like a start button
    seats are concept fantasy
    love the wide opening hatch

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Paul's photo of the grille from above looks great, IMO. Definitely the best angle so far. It really captures the texture and shape of the front, I'm liking the front better now. Still not a fan of the rear end.

    Interior looks a *lot* like the Civic, digital speedo and all, plus that steering wheel.

    Yeah, swampy, 249 lb-ft, because 246 just wouldn't be enough! LOL

    42.5 mpg, are you kidding me?

    Ken: YES, I thought that for a second also. Had to look at the other pics to make sure it wasn't!

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Scion xA is not selling as well as the xB. The Aveo is doing OK for what it is, but we're still talking about small volumes at a very low price level.

    Unless Subaru needs the CAFE credits, it's still a tough sell at this point.

    The B5, or something like it, could sell at $28 grand profitably and earn more than enough CAFE credits. If so, it would be tough to make a business case for a car selling for half that much.

    I'm just not sure Subaru could make a profit selling the R2 at around $14 grand like Scion charges. Honda's Fit and Nissan's Tiida close could sell for as little as $12 grand.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    42.5 mpg, are you kidding me?

    i kid you not....

    and they were only 1 lb-ft of torque away from the magic 250 hehehehe
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    As you know being a concept, they go overboard in some areas, such as the blue-chrome trim, goofy tail lights inside the rear window, green headrests, bubble-pack carpeting, etc.

    I'd like to see a lower liftover for the rear hatch. I'm impressed that it has the same wheelbase as the Legacy, so I would assume it has Legacy-like legroom, which is great.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This is a very good sign. Basically the over-the-top things that I do not like are most likely concept items that will be dropped anyway.

    I love the overall shape, you'll recall I drooled over the Chevy Nomad at NAIAS. I think this is great news for the Impreza replacement.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    the thriller is the drive train. Like it was said above just bring the guts over and start putting them into the existing shells and many of us will be happy campers.

    John
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I too loved the Nomad, and yes, I absolutely see the comparison; same with the Saab 9-3 Sport Combi concept from last year—which may likely share this platform. Coincidence? I doubt it. ;)

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There is a picture of a clay mock up in the photo gallery of a certain un-named Subie site out there, that is probably very close to what the production version might look like.

    Note the rear side windows are different, and probably closer to what we might expect. However, the front and profile are a dead ringer for this concept.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's show some Nomad love...

    I can't believe GM isn't producing it. It would be SOOOO much cooler than the HHR.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "The B5, or something like it, could sell at $28 grand profitably and earn more than enough CAFE credits. If so, it would be tough to make a business case for a car selling for half that much."

    Therein lies the problem, juice. $28k is a lot of money for a commuter car. I'd gladly lose 100hp for a $10k+ price reduction and even better fuel economy in a smaller package. (Of course I'm not sayin' this drivetrain/vehicle shouldn't be offered as well! Gotta have the option for WRX-level power.)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Though this eventually became the 9-3 SportCombi.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But since when has Subaru specialized in commuter cars? Never, if you think about it.

    I'd like to see a "base" model, sans turbo, to go up against Prius and HCH, sure. Use the same 2.0l engine, normally aspirated. I still imagine a $22-24k price tag, with AWD, though.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I say that despite the fact that I would very likely be shopping such a car. I just think Subaru's survival is more important that me getting an R1 to get to work each day. ;)

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I know, I know, but since they earned mini car of the year in Japan, I think they could be considered a commuter specialist, just not in this country. I agree it'd be good to go base B5 vs. Prius/Civic, but I'd like to see a sub-$20k Subaru that gets great mileage. You shouldn't have to spend $25-30k to be fuel-efficient. Don't want to see a hybrid B5 eliminate any possiblity of getting R1 & R2 here. And for pete's sake, if they choose to bring an R1, go banzai and make it the R1e! Subaru needs to be a technology leader not just in development, but in production.
  • chassolchassol Member Posts: 95
    Juice,

    I hope I'm only joking (not choking) on this - but would it not be better to sell 25,000 units at $17,000 - $20,000 than 2,000 units at $28,000+?

    Also, I might be low on the gasoline being at $2.50 minimum, it's highly possible $2.70 :sick: and up might be the permanent low going forward.

    With all high performance models being premium gas - (I have 2005 GT Ltd Legacy and 2006 Tribeca Ltd) - hurts as we put 40,000+ total (90% back & forth to work) on both cars yearly.

    So at 20 MPG this is about 2,000 gals@ $2.999 or almost $6,000 :cry: in gasoline. So about $400 over regular gas. We were use to budgeting $300/mo for gas - now it's $500+/mo. If Subaru came out with a $18,000 vehicle @ even 36 MPG - would be about $150/mo savings (even if premium gas remained). Quite a difference.

    I'm a diehard for Subaru and AWD.

    I'll be able to cut my daily work commute from 26,000 miles per year to under 8,000 miles per year in about 18 months. Just gotta survive those 18 months ;) . :shades:
  • chassolchassol Member Posts: 95
    I SECOND THIS................
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This is a chicken-and-egg scenario.

    I think this class of cars needs some sort of boost, either a tax break, HOV lane access, free parking, basically something to give them a fighting chance.

    And Subaru would be at a *huge* disadvantage if they wanted to offer AWD. $1750 extra on a $35k Tribeca? No biggie, no brainer really.

    But $1750 on a $12,000 city car? Suddenly it's almost $14 grand, and the most expensive car in its class. Probably the least efficient also, since the others would only be FWD. You could get maybe 5% of that market in the snow belt, but that's too small a niche even for Subaru.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When you put *that* much emphasis on economy, you pretty much have to drop AWD. Let's admit that.

    Subaru could not be Subaru if they went chasing the fuel economy crown. That's what Honda does, and Toyota to some extent. Both companies have deep pockets and more than 10 times the R&D funds that Subaru has (just a guess, it's probably MUCH more than that).

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    Subaru could not be Subaru if they went chasing the fuel economy crown. That's what Honda does, and Toyota to some extent. Both companies have deep pockets and more than 10 times the R&D funds that Subaru has (just a guess, it's probably MUCH more than that).

    Juice, I don't fully agree, my Forester 5MT gets better mpg than the equivalent Toyota RAV and Honda CRV 2wd models.

    I speculate that the boxer engine offers a bit more efficiency, but the Forester is more sleek also. An AWD mpg hit should only be 1-2 mpg in the 30+ range.

    John
  • dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    Why make a city/commuter car almost $2k more expensive than other cars in its class by adding AWD anyway? How many shoppers in that segment, using the car primarily for that purpose would need AWD, or even want it? Certainly not enough to justify the risk of drastically lower sales figures.

    Might as well make leather and moonroof standard also. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Careful, though, AWD is their identity. Without it it's just another econobox without any real competitive advantage over Honda Fit, Toyota Echo, Scion xA, Nissan Tiida, and Chevy Aveo. Justy never sold well and might have even hurt their image a bit.

    Forester is relatively efficient, as is Baja, but we're talking about cars here, and Subaru would carry a disadvantage. CR lists the Legacy and Impreza as among the least efficient cars in their class, because they don't distinguish between AWD and FWD.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, let's turn this around, instead of what they can't do, what could they do?

    Take the sporty angle, response to the Accent SR concept was very positive.

    If you sell sporty, then AWD becomes an asset. It could still be efficient, not necessarily a fuel miser but at least efficient while still being fun.

    Nissan's sport concept was also a hoot, though I'm sure the production model will be toned down a lot. It could go chasing Mini Coopers if they did it right, though. The Tiida is boring and tame compared to the concept they showed in NY.

    Something like that. Every segment has sporty entries. I think that's more do-able than chasing the fuel economy crown against the deep pockets (black hole almost) that Toyota has.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
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  • dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    Of course AWD is their identity. I never meant to question that.

    The question is whether or not they can even fit into the ultra-efficient commuter/city niche. It just doesn't fit their image or previous design intent.

    Would Audi, Volvo, or BMW try to squeeze themselves into that particular market, not to mention at the same price range as Toyota and Nissan? I realize those are greater extremes, but the point remains - how marketable is an AWD plain jane compact hybrid? To me, it doesn't make much sense, unless you go after the sportier segment that will include the new Accent SR, like you mentioned.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    how marketable is an AWD plain jane compact hybrid?

    I think very marketable in core Subie areas such as New England and the snow belt in general.

    Bob
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    of an AWD Mini-Cooper killer. I do want some sport with my economy.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They can't copy the FWD hybrids, so I say innovate.

    I'd love to see a through-the-road AWD system. What if the rear axle got only electric power? This is how the Highlander and RX400H work, but they send electric power to both axles. What if it only went to the rear?

    It would be the only non-FWD mini-car.

    When they had the FWD Imprezas with 1.8l and 2.2l engines, their sales were weak. They're not going to try that again. It has to be something different.

    -juice
  • dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    I think very marketable in core Subie areas such as New England and the snow belt in general.

    You may be right. They'd probably just rust away on dealer lots down here in the south, though. Then again, from what I hear at the local dealership, non-WRX Imprezas already do just that (in this region).
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