Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
The Ram was around a half tank, so it only took 14 gallons, but I filled up a couple of gas containers for the lawn equipment, and it got me to that $100 cutoff.
I was going to take the DeSoto out and fill it up tomorrow morning, but I haven't been approved for a second mortgage yet
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Agree. Impossible at that price...unless they were like the one '74 Monte Carlo that had its roof ripped open under a railroad underpass in my hometown, a mile from the dealer.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I'm impressed that there just wasn't a filler blank pushed in a hole for the no radio.
A Dodge Rampage done up in Shelby Turbo trim.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The Seattle area continues to grow and change, land becomes more valuable for other uses, this was posted to a history group today:
I'd say that car was ordered by the original customer. Someone, apparently, wanted the long wheelbase but perhaps didn't want the Bonneville's skirts but wanted the protection of a side molding, NA on a Bonneville.
It wouldn't stop me from buying a Bonneville, if I found one that turned me on otherwise, but it's just one of those details I don't really care for.
Funny, in '66 only, the Ventura Custom option on the Catalina got you skirts.
Many Seattle area old timers (that is, there before Y2K maybe) bemoan the changes, but that's what happens when population growth is insane and there's only so much developable land. Of course, if you ask some of these people if they'd trade the development away for not having their insane real estate equity, you won't get much agreement, some areas aren't behind trendy CA places in terms of housing cost and appreciation.
Post office, where my Dad worked. A WPA project in the early thirties. For the size of the town, pretty neat. Andre, this was when I mailed that envelope to you:
Not sure how, but in the '70's, in this little town that was not a suburb, the parents of Watergate figure John Dean, and the parents and sister of actor David Soul, lived in the town. I can only guess this was due to the small college in town, Thiel.
Anyway, Soul's parents (the Solbergs) went to church here. Rumor would get around town when David was back to visit, and the word was attendance was double normal on those Sundays.
Their little historical society is looking for weekend docents this summer. I'm so tempted but I get the hairy eyeball for even mentioning it.
Yellow and black '55 Ford Sunliner, in Memorial Day parade in the city I currently live. Later I saw it in the cemetery with the hood open.
The post office in the small town where my mom lives, I think this also has the old fashioned PO boxes intact:
And almost across the street, the similarly styled city hall, both showing maybe a little art deco/moderne influence:
Speaking of 55 Fords, saw a mild custom 55 (I think) Ford wagon on the road yesterday.
Dark green 95/96 Maxima SE. Looked decent navigating rush hour traffic.
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
They used to be everywhere.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
But yeah, I remember when that '95-99 Maxima was everywhere. The previous models ('89-94 and '85-88) were common sights for awhile, too. I liked the '89-94 style a lot. The '00-03 style seemed common for awhile, but I wonder if by that time, the Altima was starting to cannibalize some of its sales. And then when they came out with that "buck toothed" style for 2004, it sort of lost its charm with me.
I liked the 2009-2014 (2015?) style Maxima, and can remember actually being a bit enamored with it at the time. But, when I look at pics of them now, whatever allure they had to me seems lost. Isn't the Maxima supposed to be discontinued in the near future? If it hasn't been, already?
I wasn't crazy about whatever years looked just like a model of Infiniti. Last time I rode in one, my coworker picked me up at my house for us to drive across PA for work and before we left my town, his 'Check Engine' light was blinking, so we took my Cobalt instead.
fin, that second building reminds me of a smaller version of the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Museum.
Oddly, it looks like they took the divider strip and window glass out of both rear doors on this fox-based LTD!
This was one of the later episodes, done in the 90's. Kinda cool that, even that recently, first-gen Mustangs were still a somewhat common sight. And I see a late 60's Suburban back there, too. That has to be fairly rare.
Last night when I was looking for some bedtime reading I pulled a random copy of Collectible Automobile off the shelf, the April 1995 edition. I must have only read it once when I first bought it because I have no memory of any of the articles it contains. It has a lengthy article on the '62-'64 Plymouth which contains some new information I haven't heard mentioned before.
No question that the finny '57 Plymouth sold like gangbusters - the article quotes a figure of 729,369 units. That far exceeded any number they had ever achieved before. Plymouth did about 500,000 units a year between the 1949 to 1951 model years before dropping off, then rebounding to between 500,000 and 600,000 a year for '55 and '56. After the quality problems for '57 became known, combined with the 1958 recession, '58 sales were 433,989 and '59 resulted in 458,061 units. The article then goes on to discuss the original proposals for the '62 models, including the bizarre asymmetrical proposal with different design features on either side of the car. The author, John Katz, frames that as Exner trying to find something that would be the next big thing knowing that fins were no longer a winner.
Where the article gets interesting is when it delves into the office politics at Chrysler during that time. William Newburg, then a Chrysler Executive V-P, misinterpreted some chatter he heard at a weekend social event from Ed Cole that Chevy was going to downsize their big cars, when in reality Cole was talking about something else. The piece quotes Bill Brownlie, then a stylist under Exner who later rose to executive ranks himself, as wondering why nobody questioned this piece of news given how well Chevy was doing with their big cars, but apparently nobody did except Exner. But Exner's main ally, Chrysler President Tex Colbert, was under fire for corruption within Chrysler's executive ranks and had his power reduced, leaving Newberg calling the shots and Exner mostly out in the cold.
A lot of the above has been written about elsewhere, but what is new to me was that Newberg then issued some very specific orders to the design and engineering people for the crash downsizing program they had to execute. This included things like a width no more than 72 inches between the door posts, a wheelbase no more than 116 inches, no curved side glass, limits on total glass area and bumper size, limits on bright moldings and metal-finishing of body seams, and even body-sharing with the Valiant/Lancer. The original full-size proposals for the '62 models were ordered to be junked, so there would be no turning back. You can only imagine how design and engineering reacted to that sort of micromanagement. As one person was quoted in the article said, "It got so bad...the engineering division, to protect that 72-inch (width) dimension... developed a four-man police force to come over to styling to measure every drawing! It was a really nasty few months... total chaos, because things were changing by the moment".
Colbert, by this time neutered, stepped down as President in April 1960 and was replaced by Newberg. But in July, those same corruption charges were made against him, and Colbert returned to the President's office. Newberg then tried to get Colbert fired by making charges of corruption against him as well. Soon Colbert was gone again, opening the door for Lynn Townsend, from Chrysler's accounting firm Touche Ross, to take the Presidency. It was Townsend who initiated another crash program to bring the cars back into the mainstream for '63.
The article says Townsend gave Exner assurances he would not be held responsible for the '62s, but when they were so poorly received by dealers and the public, someone had to wear it other than the departed Newberg, and Exner was fired in November, 1961, not long after they were introduced. It goes on to discuss how Townsend then hired Elwood Engel away from Ford to replace Ex. It tells a story about his first few days in the building after Exner had left. Looking at the proposed '63 redesigns, he reportedly said to Townsend "These are good-looking cars. What's the big deal?"
The '62 models were indeed a sales disaster, selling just 182,520 units, not much different than the bizarre 1961 from what I can determine. The revised '63 boosted that to 263,292, and the '64 improved on that, increasing to 297,293 units. But even at that, you could argue that the assertion by Mark in Adam's recent video that these marked the end of Plymouth being a competitor in the low-priced three segment was true. But they overlook the '65, once again a full-size vehicle, did great business, selling over 300,000 copies. The bigger problem Plymouth was facing was the 1960s competition from Pontiac, who were building a very appealing product in that era which Plymouth just could not match. Starting in '62 Pontiac went on a roll, selling over 500,000 copies, then by '64 they were almost up to 700,000 annual production, and in '66 they went past the 800,000 mark. They were a juggernaut, and Chrysler had no chance of competing. I would suggest it wasn't the '62 Plymouth that led to that make's later woes, but Pontiac.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
In 1959, for example, the top Plymouth 4-door, a Fury was $2691, with a standard V8. The cheapest Dodge 4-door was the Coronet, at $2587, but it came standard with a 6-cyl. If you wanted the V8, it was $2707. But then above that, Dodge had the Royal and Custom Royal, while Plymouth had the Savoy and Belvedere on the cheaper range, so there really wasn't much overlap. Oh, Plymouth did have the Sport Fury that year, offered only as a hardtop or convertible (the only Plymouth convertible) and standard with a 318-4bbl, but it was fairly low production.
For 1960 though, they changed the structure, merging Plymouth, DeSoto, and Chrysler/Imperial, and leaving Dodge on its own. To compensate the Dodge dealers, they got the Dart, which copied the full-sized Plymouths model-for-model, (Seneca/Pioneer/Phoenix to Savoy/Belvedere/Fury), but were much easier on the eye (although that can be subjective) and only priced about $20-30 more. The Dart lineup essentially replaced the old Coronet, while Royal/Custom Royal were renamed as Madator/Polara.
The Dart was a smash hit, and managed to outsell the full-sized Plymouths that year, although Plymouth as a whole still beat out Dodge, when you add in the Valiant. The Matador/Polara didn't do so well, although it's a bit difficult to tell how they did compared to the '59 Royal/Custom Royal. My old car book lists roughly 14,807 Royals and 21,206 Custom Royals, as opposed to 27,908 Matadors and 16,728 Polaras. However, for 1959, station wagons were a separate series. Dodge sold 17,719 Sierras and 5,871 Custom Sierras.
For 1960, there was a Dart Seneca wagon, a Dart Pioneer wagon, a Matador wagon, and a Polara wagon. But my book doesn't break out individual production figures for '60. I imagine the bulk of the '60 wagons were Darts, though, and the Matador/Polara wagons were pretty rare. Plus, the Polara wagon was actually a hardtop, which probably made it even more low-production.
Sometimes I wonder if things would have been better, if Mopar had come out with the shrunken '62 models, as intermediates, like what Ford did with the Fairlane and Meteor, but made more of an effort to keep their big cars around? Although, to do that, they would have had to cheapen the midsized cars, as they were priced more or less like standard-sized cars. And from what I've seen/heard of the proposed '62 big cars, they probably would have failed miserably. If they made a big '62 Dodge look more or less like the Custom 880, from the get-go, maybe it wouldn't have done too badly, but that was an after-the-fact, stopgap measure. I'm sure a big '62 Dodge, designed on the normal styling schedule, would have been a disaster.
While Pontiac is normally viewed as a step up from something like a Plymouth, by '62 they were actually pretty close in price. A '62 Fury 4-door was $2,670, if you got the optional 318-2bbl V8. But a Catalina, with a standard 389-2bbl, was only $2,796 for the 4-door. By that time Dodge had changed the Dart lineup to Fleet Special/330/440. The top Dart 440 4-door sedan was $2691, again with the optional 318.
Dodge's Polara that year was limited to a 2 or 4-door hardtop and convertible. But, the 4-door hardtop was $2960. Meanwhile, the Catalina Vista 4-door hardtop was slightly less, at $2936. However, in this case, the Polara was sporting a somewhat hot 361-4bbl with 305 hp. The standard 389-2bbl that would have come with a base Catalina manual shift only had 215 hp! However, I'd imagine most of them had the automatic, where it had 267. If you moved up to the 389-4bbl, you got 303 hp with a Catalina automatic.
The Catalina was definitely a lot of car for the money, and its easy to see why Pontiac, in general, was such a hot brand in the 60's.
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
I like the looks of the big '61 Oldsmobiles. I've heard they weren't that popular though. They had sort of a trim look to them, especially compared to the models that had come before. But I think buyers were put off because the cars might not have looked substantial enough. Up front, the grille/headlight area looks a bit small, in relation to the overall width of the car, and that's a look that can be hard to pull off. But for some reason, I kinda like it. Overall the car seems like it's stuck in transition, with a bit of that jet age/space age 50's style still trying to hang on, to a car that's trying to be more trim and conservative. There was a lot of that still going on in the early 60's, although Pontiac seemed to shake off those 50's excesses earlier than most.
I also very-much like the '61 Oldsmobile two-door hardtops. There's a light green one I've seen pics of somewhere lately, that looks nice. Styling is very clean.
All the '61 GM two-door hardtops make me think of "The Jetsons"....the glassy greenhouses I guess.
For some reason, I don't notice the short hood/long deck styling on the Buick-Olds-Cadillac cars like I do on the longer-wheelbase Pontiac models. While I like the three-round-taillights on each side of the '61 longer Pontiacs, I can't hack that rear overhang.
I don't like the cantilever rooves on the four-doors, of any of the divisions.
In '62, I like the Bel Air Sport Coupe, but as we've talked about, I'm not convinced there's one out there that hasn't been converted to 409, 4-speed, and dog-dish caps. Make mine a 327 with whitewalls and full wheel covers. I sincerely don't believe such a car is out there anymore.
I know people like the '62 Starfire, but it (and the '61, too, now that I think about it), has way too much going on down the body sides for me. I like the Grand Prix concept better--plain down the sides, maybe with a rocker molding.
I thought I had a better picture of dad's 59 Catalina but can't find it. I did find this one. We lived in Baltimore for about 6 months while dad was supervising a bridge construction. Mom wrote on the back of the picture 3807 Mary Ave, Baltimore, 1964. I just googled that address and the townhouse is still there but not real pretty.
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
I believe Cadillac used an X-frame from '57-64 (or '65 if you count the limo/commercial chassis?), but it was beefed up compared to the Chevy X-frame.
I want to say Pontiac used an X- in '58-60, but then went perimeter from '61-64.
Oh, another interesting little variance. Since the Slim Jim transmission was physically smaller than the older HydraMatic, I believe the floor pans were different. Catalinas (and early Grand Prixs) of that era used the Slim Jim, and had a slightly smaller transmission hump than Star Chiefs and Bonnevilles, which used the older 4-speed Hydramatic.
So, in an odd twist of fate, in that Slim Jim era, even though the Catalina was a smaller car, you actually got a bit more interior room than if you bought a larger Star Chief or Bonneville! Or, rather, a slightly more comfortable center front seat position, at least.
It looks like the rear axle is moved back a bit, in relation to the back door, compared to a Chevy. It looks like the wheel opening cuts less into the door. But where Pontiac goofed it up on the Star Chief and Bonneville, is that they move the axle a few inches further back than this even, but uses the same door as a Catalina, so you just have a wider section of metal between the door and the wheel opening. Then, of course, Pontiac just stuck a few extra inches, at the back, as well, which made it look more awkward.
Here's a Star Chief, for comparison. Not the most glamorous example, but it shows pretty clearly how they just pulled the axle back and filled in...
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
And, back in 2009, the neighbors had a pretty nice Grand Marquis...
re: Baltimore, my grandmother's family was from there. I recall a couple of my great aunts lived in 40s era townhouse/row house style places that reminded me of Lemko's house in Philly, and a great uncle lived in a neat Victorian style brownstone that would be worth a bajillion dollars in NYC. I have a feeling all of those places aged poorly (they all moved on or passed away 25+ years ago).
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav