I think that Consumer Reports killed the Trooper. Fair or not, Isuzu could not recover from the bad press. Maybe they shouldn't have waited so long to change the name. I'm talking perception, here.
Even CR backed off when Isuzu updated the Trooper, but the look and the name stayed the same, so consumers probably didn't even know it was different.
I wonder if the production HM-01 will get a stretched Legacy platform or the Epsilon. If they get the latter, I hope they let Subaru engineer it, like Isuzu did with the small GM pickups.
Yeah, I'm not a biggie on names. I don't car if they call it the BLOG (Big Load of Garbage) so long as it performs and has the proper attributes which it won't!
They use the Pajero name in Brazil, Suriname, and Belize, too.
Given the bad press from the CR review, it wouldn't be bad timing to start using the Pajero name in the US now, too. Widen the track an inch and change the name, people will forget that article.
You know, come to think of it, an Ascender could be really nice. GM has the right platform and engine, and Isuzu could fix the styling and cheesy interior bits.
Build quality would be the only big "if".
Subaru better get with the program. My wife's car is now leaking oil, too. I found the mess when I rotated her tires (no oil on the driveway, oddly enough).
That means we may need something sooner rather than later. Gimme a B4 for the wife, manual, and hurry it up, please. The 2005 SUW is hopelessly far off for us, and the WX-01 doesn't exactly make me want to wait for it.
I'm going to be sentenced to a FWDer again, c'mon Subaru!
but given what's currently on the market, and your desire for a larger Forester, it sounds like the Highlander is the perfect choice.
The trick is getting one equipped the way you want it, and not paying a fortune for it. My guess is that they're more readily available now, so maybe the entry ticket won't be so painful in the wallet.
If anything, you owe it to yourself to take one out on a test drive.
Actually, the wife really does like the Highlander, too. She's the type that doesn't like wagons, but can't tell a Highlander is basically just that.
Let's see, V6, AWD, VSC, moonroof, roof rack, alloys, plus tint and towing, TMVs for $29,752.
That's about our limit, but it still only seats 5 (I'd prefer a 7 seater at that price). It doesn't have heated seats or leather, or a CD changer, or a lot of other little things, but we could live with it.
Also, prices will dip when the Honda MDX arrives. And if I were to buy the Highlander, I'd at least wait to see what Honda brings out. We can afford to be patient.
A VDC has more content and costs less, but she prefers the sedan (about $1k less). The base H6 sedan is $26.5k, and I expect a $750 incentive to appear soon, so that's mighty tempting.
I love the WRX, but I would feel selfish. It also still does not offer a moonroof here. It's also small, and that would make 2/3 of our cars small.
Another option is the Altima. V6 SE plus ABS, heated seats, mats, and moonroof TMVs for $24,569.
A TL TMVs for $28k, and she'd like that. But it's a lot of money for any FWD, regardless of content.
Her best friend bought an Avalon, but I hate the styling and wouldn't let her get that. The Camry, maybe, but it didn't turn her on when she saw it.
Finally, toss in the Odyssey and MPV. Though she resists, those will best meet our future needs.
To be honest, right now we're going to fix the 626, and of course we have the 3rd car as a backup. The 626 has never stranded us, but if I feel it's no longer reliable it has to go.
My wife also dislikes wagons - she says, they look like they have a big [non-permissible content removed]. When I see the long rear end, I think of gobs of useful cargo area. But I guess some (most?) women prefer the aesthetics to the utility.
The tall wagons, like Highlander etc., disguise the utilitarian platform with appealing SUV proportions, so no wonder they're popular. That's a good trend, and I can't wait to see what Honda brings to this game. It's supposed to be a Tahoe-fighter, much bigger than the MDX.
I would like to see what Subaru brings too, but 2005 is way too far off to get excited.
Don't get sucked into the Yoda crappola! What about an Axiom? They are due for a major discount in pricing, and IMHO it's far better vehicle than the Highlander. (AWD, RWD bias), active rear suspension, 4 wheel discs, 17" rims, etc. etc.
Yes, the nose is ugly. I actually measured out putting my hella 4000s in the bumper and they fit! The rest isn't ugly, just the darn nose cone I'm more of function of form so it doesn't bother me much.
* AWD * stability control * traction control * manual tranny * 3rd row seat * 200+ hp * ABS * heated seats * good payload, towing, capacity * moonroof
There are lots of basics, too, like A/C, CD, power everything, keyless entry, but pretty much all the alternatives have those by now.
I actually like the Axiom's in-your-face style. But look at my wish list and 4 things are missing. I'd like get them all, but most likely I'll be giving up just one or two.
I finally dragged to wife to test a minivan. Kia offered a free Shrek video to drive a Sedona, so I used that as bait to get her started (just looking, mind you).
It's actually nicer than you expect. The 3rd seat doesn't fold down, and I absolutely could not get comfy in the front seats, with lumpy lumbar support. That ruled it out for me right there, but the wife actually kind of liked it. She did find it a bit big and hard to park (told you she was going to like the smaller vans).
Price is rock bottom. $23.7k for a loaded model with leather and moonroof, though it does not offer heated seats or stability control, or AWD, or a manual. So it's not on our short list. Still, the engine was torquey, if a bit loud, and ride was good but with lots of lean.
But the point wasn't to sell her on a Kia, it was to lure her into trying a van. So we headed to Herson's Honda. They had one demo, that's it. None on the lot. 3 month wait, full MSRP up front. OK, then, hello to you too, sir!
Very nice interior. Folding seat is so trick that I don't think I could buy a van without it. Tons of room, even with the 3rd seat in place the well it leaves is roomy. Bummer - did not get to drive it because it was past 9pm. Seats were comfy, though. We both gave it a tentative thumbs up.
Even then, it does not have AWD, a moonroof option (big minus), or stability control. No manual, but that's OK, no vans have that. An EX with heated leather is $28,690, so IMO that's a better value than the Yoda, as paisan called it.
Next time we get around to it, I'll put her in an MPV and an Ody back to back, to see which one she likes. We have a long driveway she has to back out of, and she does not like big cars. We'll see how it drives.
The VDC wagon only misses on two points, no manual and no 3rd seat. Problem is, she doesn't like the wagon! Argh! The sedan would have 3 strikes against it, because it has less cargo space.
See my frustration? Almost anything I choose under $30k has 3 strikes or more against it.
It won't have AWD, so throw that out the door. At best it will have auto-4wd, which bangs in the front axle. Also it will likely be too big for your liking. It's gonna be long narrow, and not van-like at all. -mike
Did you find out when the 3.0 motor is going into the MPV? After driving my parents fully loaded ES MPV the only thing missing was the power. The 2.5 motor is bit overworked...a bit low on torque. Other than that, I actually prefer it over the Honda van despite or maybe because of it's smaller size.
Really? No full-time AWD like the Sierra C3 or Escalade? Seems like a step backward from TOD.
The 3.0l MPV should arrive any day now. I heard this month, we'll see. I'll ask when we take the 626 in to fix the oil leak.
Now, some cars you drive and love so much that your requirements fly out the window. A Legacy with a turbo could be such a car. WRX is close, but the wife is really pushing for more room, and the "she drives the Forester" suggestion was nipped at the bud, as I expected.
The AWD system in the escalade and the C3 are not suited for off-road duty as they have no low range. Any Isuzu should have far better capabilities than the puny GM so-called off road vehicles.
Just that the AWD system in the C3, Escalade, Denali aren't going to go in the Isuzu version cause it wouldn't be in line with the Isuzu target market which is off-roaders. Hopefully they'll include what cheesy skid plates GM now offers on the Envoy as std. equipment on the Ascender.
I think you'd really like the Axiom, have you driven it yet?
No, have not driven it, but I have sat in one. Fitz Subaru sells Isuzus too. It had that rather wild cream-colored leather, you know what I'm talking about?
But it doesn't do anything that the Rodeo and Trooper don't already do for less money and with 5 speeds. 16/20 mpg blows my mileage criteria away, no S/C or T/C, no 3rd row (aftermarket ones would kill any cargo space), no manual trans, more $$.
I'll put her in one just to see what she says, while we're looking at the H6s, but I'd be surprised because she doesn't like bulky vehicles.
Well it actually does a lot more than the Rodeo and trooper do...
It handles like a car, a sporty one at that, it's got 230hp, 232lbs torque, no need for an S/C or T/C, the 3rd row aftermarket ones wouldn't take any more room away than the 3rd row of the highlander, and it's much cheaper than the highlander. The milage is poor, but anything with that much room, AWD, and 230hp is going to get poor milage.
Hey worth a try to looksy at it. I haven't seen the cream interior, only the basketball colored tan/black interior.
Hey, weren't you criticizing the Axiom when it came out for the less practical, less boxy styling? ;-)
We need to come together on what type of vehicle we want. She likes sporty sedans, plus car-based SUVs. I want something that does a job different from the other cars in our fleet (small SUV, roadster). That means a roomy 7 seater, something along those lines. IMO there is a lot of overlap from the Forester to the Isuzus (for our purposes, remember we don't go rock hopping).
The forester and the axiom are kinda similar. Too bad you don't like the Safari. That would make a great vehicle for you. I'ts got AWD, seats 7 paisanos in comfort, plenty of power, and decent handling. Heck they even sell a 5" lift kit for it.
And yes the Axiom isn't nearly as boxy as the trooper, but then again no vehicle is!
Put it this way - I could probably sell her on a conversion van based on the Astro, but do I really want to?
The Trooper is it's own shipping crate. If you gave one as a gift, you'd just have to wrap ribbon around it! Scientists actually calibrate their straight-edges with it! ;-)
Unveiled in Japan by GM and FHI at the 35th Annual Tokyo Motor Show. Is this the future AWD 7-passenger minivan rumored for the US market? Sized about the same as a Mercury Villager, I would say it's possible.
I believe this is nothing more than a rebadged Opel, much more GM than Subaru and no AWD. We covered this pretty thoroughly a few posts back. This vehicle actually cheapens the Subaru name IMHO.
It's an Opel Astra with a bigger engine and a lower price. No AWD, in-line 4 cylinder mounted transversely, it's not a real Subie.
I think the 2005 SUW may be built on the GM Epsilon platform. At least I think the WX-01 concept was. The Traviq is on a small platform, so I doubt they'll share a chassis.
The 3rd seat is super-tight. You have to move the 2nd seat far forward to have any leg room at all, never mind actually getting comfortable. I want a livable 3rd seat, and cargo space behind it, if I go that route.
Also, no traction control, no stability control, ABS can be hard to find on them, and gas mileage is below my target, as is horsepower. That's a lot of misses in key categories.
I did like the Grand Vitara I drove at Edmunds Live, so I wouldn't have ruled Suzuki out without looking at it. I do thank you for your suggestion and welcome more of them.
The following info is from Chuck (tincup 47) who works for Land Rover. He posted this over in the SUV areas.
Some of the content added,
5 Speed auto transmission (with manual mode in both high and low range)
Shift-on-the-move Transfer range selection
Park Distance Control
Heated Rear Seats
Heated Steering Wheel
Automatic Tire pressure monitor
Dynamic Stability Control
Enhanced Hill Descent Control
Plus it's 9.4 inches longer, 2.6 inches wider
Of inteest to me is that the new Range Rover has a fully independent suspension, keeps the high and low range—and adds a "shift-on-the-fly" feature between high and low range—which I think is a great idea!
I'm wondering closely related this vehicle is to the BMW X5, since they were developed somewhat together? And, a concern—the ground clearance appears quite low. I'm wondering if there is any ground clearance height adjustment feature?
The Buick Rendezvous had park distance control, too. 3 little lights went on as you approach an object from behind. It's useful for huge vehicles, and for someone like my wife, to avoid parking by braille.
Full independent? Really? I wonder if they'll use a VC like the Freelander does. The Freelander also doesn't have much ground clearance.
Despite the Freelander's lack of a low range, everything I've read indicates it's a pretty good off-roader; at least the best of the so-called cute-utes.
Also, the new Range Rover looks remarkably like the original Range Rover, in terms of styling. I wonder if those "shark gills" on the front fenders are functioning air scoops?
The IFS/IRS RR does have an adjustable air suspension, that lowers itself at rest, hence the apparent lack of ground clearance in the photo. The new RR can sense rough terrain, and automatically raise its suspension accordingly.
Subaru pretty much offers most of the technology on the Freelander, except Hill Descent Control. They use VC is the manual tranny equipped cars, and a similar traction control setup on the VDC. It would be nice to see those systems trickle down into mainstream models, as well as to see VDC combined with a manual trans.
I like the idea of an adjustable suspension, but I would be concerned about the replacement cost (a la XT6) for those air bladders.
I almost prefer manually adjustable systems, because they are robust.
I'm here today. The vents are functional, they vent hot air out of the engine compartment at low speeds. The new Range Rover has an enhanced version of the Electronic Air Suspension, and the approach, departure, and ramp breakover angles are claimed to be equal or better than the current model. The new model has definite styling cues from the classic model, as well as the current one. Land Rover is very attuned to it's heritage and is proud of what it's vehicles are capable of. Juice, if you can afford a Range Rover, the cost of the air springs is small potatoes. Also air suspension has been on the Range Rover since 93, and is a very robust system.
I like it. It will definitely be in the running for my next vehicle. Except for the alteza tail lights I'll have to remove them and paint the silver backing body color.
Doesn't the ATs on the subies have "hill descent control/Grade Logic/etc" I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.
and would expect, that the new RR's suspension is beefy and robust. This is, after all, Land Rover's "Crown Jewel." I expect them to get it right—especially since the old RR has a somewhat shoddy reputation, as mentioned in the Oz article.
I wonder how long before we see an IRS in the Land Cruiser?
Is the air suspension air-bladders? Or is it just air-actuated manual system? The latter is better IMHO. Although I loved the air suspension on the XT6 when it worked.
The Hill Descent Control in Freelander is for off road use only. When engaged, it limits the vehicle to 6.5 MPH using the ABS system. It only engages in manual mode in low gear, and is overidden by the throttle or brake.
Comments
Even CR backed off when Isuzu updated the Trooper, but the look and the name stayed the same, so consumers probably didn't even know it was different.
I wonder if the production HM-01 will get a stretched Legacy platform or the Epsilon. If they get the latter, I hope they let Subaru engineer it, like Isuzu did with the small GM pickups.
-juice
Bob
Bob
-mike
-juice
-mike
Given the bad press from the CR review, it wouldn't be bad timing to start using the Pajero name in the US now, too. Widen the track an inch and change the name, people will forget that article.
-juice
Lutz wants Pontiac to target BMW. Sounds kind of Nutz, but he has the right idea - target ride, handling, and steering and not brute force.
-juice
Build quality would be the only big "if".
Subaru better get with the program. My wife's car is now leaking oil, too. I found the mess when I rotated her tires (no oil on the driveway, oddly enough).
That means we may need something sooner rather than later. Gimme a B4 for the wife, manual, and hurry it up, please. The 2005 SUW is hopelessly far off for us, and the WX-01 doesn't exactly make me want to wait for it.
I'm going to be sentenced to a FWDer again, c'mon Subaru!
-juice
I know you love sandy, but give him to your wife and buy yourself that WRX you are lusting after, as I see it this is a win.win, solution all around.
Cheers Pat.
The trick is getting one equipped the way you want it, and not paying a fortune for it. My guess is that they're more readily available now, so maybe the entry ticket won't be so painful in the wallet.
If anything, you owe it to yourself to take one out on a test drive.
Bob
Let's see, V6, AWD, VSC, moonroof, roof rack, alloys, plus tint and towing, TMVs for $29,752.
That's about our limit, but it still only seats 5 (I'd prefer a 7 seater at that price). It doesn't have heated seats or leather, or a CD changer, or a lot of other little things, but we could live with it.
Also, prices will dip when the Honda MDX arrives. And if I were to buy the Highlander, I'd at least wait to see what Honda brings out. We can afford to be patient.
A VDC has more content and costs less, but she prefers the sedan (about $1k less). The base H6 sedan is $26.5k, and I expect a $750 incentive to appear soon, so that's mighty tempting.
I love the WRX, but I would feel selfish. It also still does not offer a moonroof here. It's also small, and that would make 2/3 of our cars small.
Another option is the Altima. V6 SE plus ABS, heated seats, mats, and moonroof TMVs for $24,569.
A TL TMVs for $28k, and she'd like that. But it's a lot of money for any FWD, regardless of content.
Her best friend bought an Avalon, but I hate the styling and wouldn't let her get that. The Camry, maybe, but it didn't turn her on when she saw it.
Finally, toss in the Odyssey and MPV. Though she resists, those will best meet our future needs.
To be honest, right now we're going to fix the 626, and of course we have the 3rd car as a backup. The 626 has never stranded us, but if I feel it's no longer reliable it has to go.
-juice
The tall wagons, like Highlander etc., disguise the utilitarian platform with appealing SUV proportions, so no wonder they're popular. That's a good trend, and I can't wait to see what Honda brings to this game. It's supposed to be a Tahoe-fighter, much bigger than the MDX.
I would like to see what Subaru brings too, but 2005 is way too far off to get excited.
--Bart
Ken
-mike
-mike
Stephen
* AWD
* stability control
* traction control
* manual tranny
* 3rd row seat
* 200+ hp
* ABS
* heated seats
* good payload, towing, capacity
* moonroof
There are lots of basics, too, like A/C, CD, power everything, keyless entry, but pretty much all the alternatives have those by now.
I actually like the Axiom's in-your-face style. But look at my wish list and 4 things are missing. I'd like get them all, but most likely I'll be giving up just one or two.
I finally dragged to wife to test a minivan. Kia offered a free Shrek video to drive a Sedona, so I used that as bait to get her started (just looking, mind you).
It's actually nicer than you expect. The 3rd seat doesn't fold down, and I absolutely could not get comfy in the front seats, with lumpy lumbar support. That ruled it out for me right there, but the wife actually kind of liked it. She did find it a bit big and hard to park (told you she was going to like the smaller vans).
Price is rock bottom. $23.7k for a loaded model with leather and moonroof, though it does not offer heated seats or stability control, or AWD, or a manual. So it's not on our short list. Still, the engine was torquey, if a bit loud, and ride was good but with lots of lean.
But the point wasn't to sell her on a Kia, it was to lure her into trying a van. So we headed to Herson's Honda. They had one demo, that's it. None on the lot. 3 month wait, full MSRP up front. OK, then, hello to you too, sir!
Very nice interior. Folding seat is so trick that I don't think I could buy a van without it. Tons of room, even with the 3rd seat in place the well it leaves is roomy. Bummer - did not get to drive it because it was past 9pm. Seats were comfy, though. We both gave it a tentative thumbs up.
Even then, it does not have AWD, a moonroof option (big minus), or stability control. No manual, but that's OK, no vans have that. An EX with heated leather is $28,690, so IMO that's a better value than the Yoda, as paisan called it.
Next time we get around to it, I'll put her in an MPV and an Ody back to back, to see which one she likes. We have a long driveway she has to back out of, and she does not like big cars. We'll see how it drives.
The VDC wagon only misses on two points, no manual and no 3rd seat. Problem is, she doesn't like the wagon! Argh! The sedan would have 3 strikes against it, because it has less cargo space.
See my frustration? Almost anything I choose under $30k has 3 strikes or more against it.
-juice
3rd row of seats can be added easily through aftermarket.
MT is a dying breed on any SUV/Wagon/Van
SO it's just the stability control you don't get.
-mike
The Isuzu I'd be most interested to see would be the Trooper replacement.
Oh, did I mention I'd like 20mpg city or better? Picky, aren't I?
-juice
-mike
Stephen
The 3.0l MPV should arrive any day now. I heard this month, we'll see. I'll ask when we take the 626 in to fix the oil leak.
Now, some cars you drive and love so much that your requirements fly out the window. A Legacy with a turbo could be such a car. WRX is close, but the wife is really pushing for more room, and the "she drives the Forester" suggestion was nipped at the bud, as I expected.
-juice
-mike
-juice
I think you'd really like the Axiom, have you driven it yet?
-mike
But it doesn't do anything that the Rodeo and Trooper don't already do for less money and with 5 speeds. 16/20 mpg blows my mileage criteria away, no S/C or T/C, no 3rd row (aftermarket ones would kill any cargo space), no manual trans, more $$.
I'll put her in one just to see what she says, while we're looking at the H6s, but I'd be surprised because she doesn't like bulky vehicles.
-juice
It handles like a car, a sporty one at that, it's got 230hp, 232lbs torque, no need for an S/C or T/C, the 3rd row aftermarket ones wouldn't take any more room away than the 3rd row of the highlander, and it's much cheaper than the highlander. The milage is poor, but anything with that much room, AWD, and 230hp is going to get poor milage.
Hey worth a try to looksy at it. I haven't seen the cream interior, only the basketball colored tan/black interior.
-mike
We need to come together on what type of vehicle we want. She likes sporty sedans, plus car-based SUVs. I want something that does a job different from the other cars in our fleet (small SUV, roadster). That means a roomy 7 seater, something along those lines. IMO there is a lot of overlap from the Forester to the Isuzus (for our purposes, remember we don't go rock hopping).
-juice
And yes the Axiom isn't nearly as boxy as the trooper, but then again no vehicle is!
-mike
The Trooper is it's own shipping crate. If you gave one as a gift, you'd just have to wrap ribbon around it! Scientists actually calibrate their straight-edges with it! ;-)
-juice
Here's a link http://www.subaruwarranty.com/Traviq.htm
Stephen
I think the 2005 SUW may be built on the GM Epsilon platform. At least I think the WX-01 concept was. The Traviq is on a small platform, so I doubt they'll share a chassis.
-juice
The 3rd seat is super-tight. You have to move the 2nd seat far forward to have any leg room at all, never mind actually getting comfortable. I want a livable 3rd seat, and cargo space behind it, if I go that route.
Also, no traction control, no stability control, ABS can be hard to find on them, and gas mileage is below my target, as is horsepower. That's a lot of misses in key categories.
I did like the Grand Vitara I drove at Edmunds Live, so I wouldn't have ruled Suzuki out without looking at it. I do thank you for your suggestion and welcome more of them.
-juice
The following info is from Chuck (tincup 47) who works for Land Rover. He posted this over in the SUV areas.
Some of the content added,
5 Speed auto transmission (with manual mode in both high and low range)
Shift-on-the-move Transfer range selection
Park Distance Control
Heated Rear Seats
Heated Steering Wheel
Automatic Tire pressure monitor
Dynamic Stability Control
Enhanced Hill Descent Control
Plus it's 9.4 inches longer, 2.6 inches wider
Of inteest to me is that the new Range Rover has a fully independent suspension, keeps the high and low range—and adds a "shift-on-the-fly" feature between high and low range—which I think is a great idea!
I'm wondering closely related this vehicle is to the BMW X5, since they were developed somewhat together? And, a concern—the ground clearance appears quite low. I'm wondering if there is any ground clearance height adjustment feature?
Chuck—are you out there?
Bob
Full independent? Really? I wonder if they'll use a VC like the Freelander does. The Freelander also doesn't have much ground clearance.
-juice
Also, the new Range Rover looks remarkably like the original Range Rover, in terms of styling. I wonder if those "shark gills" on the front fenders are functioning air scoops?
Bob
-mike
http://www.drive.com.au/
Bob
I like the idea of an adjustable suspension, but I would be concerned about the replacement cost (a la XT6) for those air bladders.
I almost prefer manually adjustable systems, because they are robust.
-juice
Juice, if you can afford a Range Rover, the cost of the air springs is small potatoes. Also air suspension has been on the Range Rover since 93, and is a very robust system.
Doesn't the ATs on the subies have "hill descent control/Grade Logic/etc" I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.
-mike
I wonder how long before we see an IRS in the Land Cruiser?
Bob
-mike