I do have a bulls' eye on me when I drive. Hmm, but then I'm stuck with FWD until it happens. Choices, choices...
Too much space? That's funny. Did you know the new Expedition has a center middle-row seat that can be moved forward, so the parents in the front can reach a baby in that seat?
See, the Forester was designed that way on purpose! ;-)
I think so too. Helical would imply how the gears are cut. Sounds like a type of Torsen to me. I guess Subaru wants to differentiate it with their viscous LSD without using the Torsen brand name.
While we're on the topic of "roomier" vehicles, I'd like to see Subaru build a mini-van similar to the Mazda MPV, second edition. It would need:
-3.0 V6 making 225hp -5 speed auto -AWD, ABS, VDC -4 wheel disc brakes w/EBFC -17" tires -Wider stance: 63" track -7 passenger seating -Rolldown 2nd row windows -"Side-by-Slide" 2nd row captains chairs, with extended fore/aft movement -"Magic" 3rd row seat -Dimensions similar to MPV (187" overall, 112" wheelbase, 73" wide, i.e. a little wider than MPV) -Dual sliding doors -Full size spare -Class II tow capacity -Curb weight under 4000# -5* crash rating, airbags, etc -Priced in the mid-20's real world
For those familiar with the 2002 MPV, this should look familiar. I see the MPV as a cross-over vehicle whose exterior dimensions are similar to a mid-size wagon, but with the interior flexibility of a mini-van, and handling similar to a sports sedan. The changes I'm calling for are mostly related to AWD, tow capability and minor tweaks to the MPV interior (wider, more leg room in the second row when 3rd row empty).
The MPV has been just another mini-van ever since they killed the REAL MPV (Front Engine Rear Drive or 4wd) I think it even had low range in that format too.
My bad. Make that an H-6. This may be heresy here, but the MPV isn't just another mini-van because it handles so nice, and it isn't a bus.
I think there's a market for a sporty people-hauler that combines some of the Honda's features with better handling, but maybe that's just me. The industry seems to think that people with kids don't want to have fun tooling around town. I think they've been listening to their own product placement pieces too much.
With Honda going to a 240hp 6 cylinder and the 5-speed this year, they've moved the bar again. On the other hand, at nearly 4500#, anything less would be underpowered.
The original MPV certainly had some nice things going for it, but it never really caught on.
Traviq is small for the US. Look at the new Odyssey (MSRP + mark up) and the old Odyssey (a flop). The Traviq even resembles the old Ody.
I'd be extremely pleased with Brian's list of features on an MPV-sized competitor.
paisan: the 2002 MPV got a long list of big improvements, that ought to make it very competitive. It's interior is the most versatile of any minivan, including the Ody (the rear windows open and the 2nd row slides to the side).
Power was down, but it now makes 200hp and has a 5 speed auto to put that down effectively, plus it's about the lightest van out there. Add traction control, power sliding doors, and factory entertainment options, and this is what consumers want (not you, I realize that).
Put is this way, which minivan would you buy today? Subaru/Isuzu doesn't make one. Not including the full size vans.
Oh it's a great Mini-van, but the market doesn't particularly like mini-vans. See comments in another thread about 30 and 40 somethings who don't like the mini-van stigma. I think AWD mini-vans are AWSOME as that is what 95%+ of the SUV buyers out there really need but are afraid to buy due to the stigma.
My personal favorite is the Safari AWD mid-van and in 2nd place the Aerostar AWD and 3rd the TC or SC Previa AWD mini-van
Yep, see when I buy a vehicle, that can hold say 8 passengers, to me that is 8 passengers plus all their gear. If you take these smaller mini-vans and actually use them to full capacity, they can't hack it. If I was buying a mini-van and only using 5 seats, I wouldn't get a mini-van I'd get a sedan or wagon! I like a vehicle that can handle all the people it says it can hold + their gear, which most vehicles cannot do very well! The Safari and Aerostar (note: it's a ford and I am praising it) can hold all the people and their gear that they say it can hold!
I guess at the time, they didn't have money for production. Features I like: - Engine: 3.0 Litre DOHC 4 cam 24 valve horizontally opposed 6 cylinder - Max Output:240ps/6000rpm - Max Torque:32.0kg-m/4800rpm - Tire:225/45R17 - The newly developed suspension system employs double wishbones on the front and a multi-link setup on the rear
- The Exiga is fitted with the advanced VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) active safety system, and the ADA (Active Drive Assist) system which is designed to anticipate and help prevent accidents caused by human error.
I don't know if I would actually buy a minivan. My wife wouldn't and not even my mom. Although there have been times that we needed one. When my parents were visting over the holidays, we actually drove both Scooby's to visit my mother-in-law (1 - 1 1/2 hour drive to Queens, NY)
OK, I'll go out on a limb here... Why not fix the stigma ? Subaru's built a tidy little business poking fun at the Excursion's of the world. And I think the SUV craze has probably peaked - everyone's got one, so what's the big deal. Add to that the downsides that a large portion of owners have now personally experienced (pain to park, handle like a ship at sea, guzzle gas, rollover risk, expensive, never took it off-road afterall, etc), and maybe the time is ripe to attack the stigma. Practically speaking, a mini-van is a better fit (rational, left-brain speaking here) for almost everyone that ownes a big SUV, excepting all those who actually tow big loads and do go off-road. No ?
You are a special case, though. Most minivan owners have 2-3 kids and just want a couple of extra seats so their kids can bring a friend or two. So usually it's 2 adults and the rest little tikes.
It's funny, our toddler takes up much less space now than she did as a baby. The difference is huge. We fit easily on trips now. When the 2nd baby arrives, we'll probably be tight, but again only for a year or so. So maybe a van is overkill, especially for a temporary need.
I'd like an Exiga-style vehicle, too, and maybe that's what the 2005 SUW will end up being. Let's see how much Subaru influence there is, and how badly the GM parts-bin is raided (hopefully little).
In fact, it probably makes more sense for Subaru to focus on that.
I think the big SUVs sales will drop, but SUVs like the Pilot (roomy mid-sizers with high seating capacity) will thrive in their place.
You make a good point on exceeding capacity, but I said 7 places, not 8, and on a smaller chassis, you're really talking 4 places plus gear, or 7 places and no (or limited) gear, which would suit me just fine.
Your point on not exceeding load capacity goes for any vehicle, SUV's included. How many people know that loading an Explorer or any other tall vehicle with stiff springs to capacity doubles the rollover risk ?
I'm a form follows function kind of guy. Not that I don't appreciate aesthetics, quite the contrary. But know what you want it for and how you'll use it before you put down the cash. And respect the design intentions of the builders.
I spent a lot of years working in Germany, and we saw that there too. Big cars depreciated like there was no tomorrow, but little cars held their value extremely well.
Our uses for a mini-van sound similar to yours, but I'd add regular trips to HomeDepot. As to a mini-van being overkill after the kids get past infancy, I tend to agree, which is why I like the MPV - it's less of a compromise over the longer term that we keep our vehicles.
Home Depot? Once in a while. I haven't really had a need for lots of room, and we're just going to have our mulch delivered.
I can see a van being useful while the kids are in school, maybe up until junior high, when image becomes a big issue. Then I'll drop them off in my 2008 SVX convertible. ;-)
That was the problem Ihad with the legacy wagon. I was all set to buy it til I realized it wouldn't hold 5 people + gear + trailer, whereas my Trooper easily holds 5 people + gear + trailer. I see your points though of not really using them for 8 people + gear, just using em for 7 or 8 people.
I took a look at the Exiga, and it looks to be missing the head room I like. That head room comes in handy for hauling boxing items like furniture, etc, that won't fit in a wagon (Oak Express anyone ?)
It's also nice on cross-country trips - you don't feel quite so closed in. Out here in the Mountain West, points of interest are a long ways apart. It seems like we drive 12 hours one-way no matter where we go...
We've got Oak Post. I got a dining table, 4 chairs, and 3 barstools, and we fit everthing inside my Forester and my cousin's Outback.
Exiga was a concept - so the 3 rows of seats in a powerful, luxurious wagon were just a hint of what they could do. Though in reality is was pre-2000 Outback, so I don't think it directly hints at the 2005 SUW.
I've been pleasantly surprised at what we get into our Forester too. Nevertheless, I still hit the limit occasionally. I should plan farther ahead and get stuff delivered more often... I'm refinishing our basement, and there's no end to what I need. With Spring around the corner, I'll be working in the yard next...
Agreed. I looked at that, and it would fit the bill. Unfortunately, I've used our RV parking space for our camper. I doubt the neighbor's would be thrilled with our parking a trailer next to the house...
Just read that in the print edition of Automotive News. Shame on Toyota. Pitiful treatment of their customers. Why should they have even had to sue to get engines fixed under warranty?
And the cars affected aren't cheap - Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, Celica, Highlander, and even two Lexus models (EX and RX).
We didn't get a chance to chat much about Chicago, and I was out of town, so I'll share some thoughts just to hear your reactions.
Terra4: GMC is overdoing everything, but the hybrid idea will happen. 4 wheel steer is good, and the retractable bed cover is very neat, as are the side loading doors. Stuff like that will see production, I bet.
HCD7: Hyundai never builds any of their radical concepts. I liked the HCD1 roadster, remember it was supposed to sell for $15k with 150hp? The rear of the concept was not figured out properly.
Maruader drop-top: just do it. Mercury needs all the image help it can get. It would be the roomiest convertible, and a cult car.
Bonny G/XP: FWD, 270hp? Pontiac needs AWD to be truly sporty. Or RWD.
Gran Prix gForce: styling is way overdone. Cladding is gone, but the styling is so radical the impression is still the same. Headroom will be poor, with low doors like the Intrepid. The rear looks like the Sunfire, a cheap car. 4 speeds only? Stabilitrak is needed to tame 280hp and FWD. See Bonny.
Sky: cute outside. I DETEST the center mounted dash, like in the awful selling Echo and Prius. What are they thinking? It's a dumb idea. I hope the whole idea dies an ugly death. It encourages back-seat drivers, what a nightmare. Third door is clever, as is the 2 or 2+2 seating.
Tundra: wow, that rear taillight is sooooo ugly! It looks like it's going backwards! Here is a truck with no utility. Smaller bed (they say it's the same width between the wheels, but the rest of the bed is far more narrow). And 245hp? In a sport truck? Compacts have that much, this is supposed to be in the big leagues.
Thanks for the link. Being new to Subie's I've never seen that concept. It got my curiosity piqued as I'm looking at a similar vehicle that will be out next year. You guys see the Chrysler Pacifica yet? Hopefully it doesn't go through the same disaster that the Jeep GC went through. Love the looks of the car and I am curious to see what the final version costs and looks like.
That has been a frequent request on the MPV boards . . . and in Japan, the new generation MPV is available with the same AWD system as the Tribute . . . not exactlyon the same page as the venerable system on the Subaru but not bad for a minivan. Now if we could just convince Mazda USA to import that AWD MPV to the states I think there would be a lot of takers.
Pacifica should be a hit. DCX sedans overlap too much. Intrepid looks like the Concorde, which looks like the LHS, which looks like the 300M, and so on. From the profile they are all clones. They swap the beak and the butt, that's it.
Tribute uses a part-time RBC (rotary blade coupling), though. It won't help torque-steer at all. I haven't driven the 2002 yet, so I'm not sure how well the FWD powertrain puts down the 200 horses. At least traction control is offered, so the axle is managed.
What do you guys think of the new Kia SUV? Looks kind of cute. Watch out, Santa Fe.
It's anything but cute. It's a full framed dealio! That truck should do great. It's a real truck and will have my beloved TOD system and RWD based and Low Range!
Apparently, a mini-van from Subaru is on the slate for 2005-2006. You can see pictures of what it will probably look like at www.subaru.net. Many pics form the tokyo auto show. Why they haven't moved this project along faster is beyond me. We would sell a ton of these vans in the northeast.
I only know what I here at sales meetings with the Subaru execs. But so far they were pretty close with information about the Baja, Forester and Legacy. Originally Baja and Forester were supposed to be supercharged. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
I'll check out the production cars from the Chicago show, including the Sorento. Hey, isn't that an Italian brand of cheese? It's named after your paisanos! ;-)
Ben: are you referring to the Traviq? That's really just a redabged Opel. Opel makes good cars, but they're not Subies, they're 100% GM.
For the US, I'd like to see a longitudinal engine layout and AWD, for the symmetrical powertrain layout they talk about so much in their ads.
Besides that, the Traviq is small for US tastes. It actually looks a little smaller than the original Odyssey/Oasis.
Dave: yes, there was a Forester Woody concept. Subaru recycled the wood from a display stand from a previous show. I say leave it as just a concept! It screams station wagon.
Fridays are slow, so I'll share thoughts on a few more new cars.
GM Pickups: too much chrome. Chevy looks worse, not better. They are the kings of ugly face-lifts. Cool turn-signals in the mirrors. 4WS a good idea. That steering wheel is UG-LEE!
Ram: that thing is a monster truck. People are going to love 'em.
Mustang SVT: Ford has ruined the nice retro lines over the years. I liked the ones that reminded you of the '64 1/2. The hood looks swollen, and it keeps getting uglier. 390hp, wow, that's 'vette territory. It's too heavy, though.
Liberty Renegade: purely cosmetic profit padding. I'm sure it'll sell well! Flares copy the VehiCross and Frontier. Lights look goofy. Remocable running boards? I don't even see the cool metal interior from the Limited in the photos. I prefer the Ltd.
Sorento: look out, Liberty and XTerra. Kia looks good, with a stylish SUV that looks like a face-lifted RX300 for half the price. Why just 192 horses from 3.5 liters? Honda makes 240 horses. Nice fender flares. Kia sales are up and will continue the trend. This is what the XTerra should have been - back-to-basics but affordable.
They have the Sonata (Hyundai owns Kia) to go after car-based SUVs, so this offers a truck alternative. Kia really nailed the styling. Eat your heart out, Lexus.
Comments
Too much space? That's funny. Did you know the new Expedition has a center middle-row seat that can be moved forward, so the parents in the front can reach a baby in that seat?
See, the Forester was designed that way on purpose! ;-)
-juice
..Mike
..Mike
-juice
Ken
-3.0 V6 making 225hp
-5 speed auto
-AWD, ABS, VDC
-4 wheel disc brakes w/EBFC
-17" tires
-Wider stance: 63" track
-7 passenger seating
-Rolldown 2nd row windows
-"Side-by-Slide" 2nd row captains chairs, with extended fore/aft movement
-"Magic" 3rd row seat
-Dimensions similar to MPV (187" overall, 112" wheelbase, 73" wide, i.e. a little wider than MPV)
-Dual sliding doors
-Full size spare
-Class II tow capacity
-Curb weight under 4000#
-5* crash rating, airbags, etc
-Priced in the mid-20's real world
For those familiar with the 2002 MPV, this should look familiar. I see the MPV as a cross-over vehicle whose exterior dimensions are similar to a mid-size wagon, but with the interior flexibility of a mini-van, and handling similar to a sports sedan. The changes I'm calling for are mostly related to AWD, tow capability and minor tweaks to the MPV interior (wider, more leg room in the second row when 3rd row empty).
look here
on a driven front differential they make a huge difference, since you can limit slip and also allow the outside wheel to turn faster.
-Colin
The MPV has been just another mini-van ever since they killed the REAL MPV (Front Engine Rear Drive or 4wd) I think it even had low range in that format too.
-mike
Bob
I think there's a market for a sporty people-hauler that combines some of the Honda's features with better handling, but maybe that's just me. The industry seems to think that people with kids don't want to have fun tooling around town. I think they've been listening to their own product placement pieces too much.
With Honda going to a 240hp 6 cylinder and the 5-speed this year, they've moved the bar again. On the other hand, at nearly 4500#, anything less would be underpowered.
The original MPV certainly had some nice things going for it, but it never really caught on.
I'd be extremely pleased with Brian's list of features on an MPV-sized competitor.
paisan: the 2002 MPV got a long list of big improvements, that ought to make it very competitive. It's interior is the most versatile of any minivan, including the Ody (the rear windows open and the 2nd row slides to the side).
Power was down, but it now makes 200hp and has a 5 speed auto to put that down effectively, plus it's about the lightest van out there. Add traction control, power sliding doors, and factory entertainment options, and this is what consumers want (not you, I realize that).
Put is this way, which minivan would you buy today? Subaru/Isuzu doesn't make one. Not including the full size vans.
-juice
My personal favorite is the Safari AWD mid-van and in 2nd place the Aerostar AWD and 3rd the TC or SC Previa AWD mini-van
-mike
Still, Subaru's a tiny niche player, and with 1% market share it's not like they'd need lots of conquest sales.
I remember they kept the Aerostar around even after the Windstar arrived because sales were strong. You love those full frames, eh? ;-)
-juice
-mike
http://www.subaru.net/prototype/exiga.html
I guess at the time, they didn't have money for production.
Features I like:
- Engine: 3.0 Litre DOHC 4 cam 24 valve horizontally opposed 6 cylinder
- Max Output:240ps/6000rpm
- Max Torque:32.0kg-m/4800rpm
- Tire:225/45R17
- The newly developed suspension system employs double wishbones on the front and a multi-link setup on the rear
- The Exiga is fitted with the advanced VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) active safety system, and the ADA (Active Drive Assist) system which is designed to anticipate and help prevent accidents caused by human error.
I don't know if I would actually buy a minivan.
My wife wouldn't and not even my mom. Although there have been times that we needed one.
When my parents were visting over the holidays, we actually drove both Scooby's to visit my mother-in-law (1 - 1 1/2 hour drive to Queens, NY)
-Dennis
It's funny, our toddler takes up much less space now than she did as a baby. The difference is huge. We fit easily on trips now. When the 2nd baby arrives, we'll probably be tight, but again only for a year or so. So maybe a van is overkill, especially for a temporary need.
-juice
In fact, it probably makes more sense for Subaru to focus on that.
I think the big SUVs sales will drop, but SUVs like the Pilot (roomy mid-sizers with high seating capacity) will thrive in their place.
-juice
Your point on not exceeding load capacity goes for any vehicle, SUV's included. How many people know that loading an Explorer or any other tall vehicle with stiff springs to capacity doubles the rollover risk ?
I'm a form follows function kind of guy. Not that I don't appreciate aesthetics, quite the contrary. But know what you want it for and how you'll use it before you put down the cash. And respect the design intentions of the builders.
It's funny, in Brazil there is no such stigma. Cars are small, and size is viewed as a luxury few can afford. So vans are highly desirable.
-juice
Our uses for a mini-van sound similar to yours, but I'd add regular trips to HomeDepot. As to a mini-van being overkill after the kids get past infancy, I tend to agree, which is why I like the MPV - it's less of a compromise over the longer term that we keep our vehicles.
I can see a van being useful while the kids are in school, maybe up until junior high, when image becomes a big issue. Then I'll drop them off in my 2008 SVX convertible. ;-)
-juice
-Dennis
-mike
Subaru will have a bigger-than-Legacy platform when the SUW comes out, so it'll be interesting to see if they build a bigger sedan off that chassis.
That might please even the paisan-sized among us. :-)
-juice
Express anyone ?)
It's also nice on cross-country trips - you don't feel quite so closed in. Out here in the Mountain West, points of interest are a long ways apart. It seems like we drive 12 hours one-way no matter where we go...
Exiga was a concept - so the 3 rows of seats in a powerful, luxurious wagon were just a hint of what they could do. Though in reality is was pre-2000 Outback, so I don't think it directly hints at the 2005 SUW.
-juice
-juice
-juice
It's a like a pool. It's better to have a close friend or neighbor that owns one, vs. owning it yourself.
-juice
And the cars affected aren't cheap - Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, Celica, Highlander, and even two Lexus models (EX and RX).
-juice
PS This affects 3.3 MILLION vehicles, wow!
Terra4: GMC is overdoing everything, but the hybrid idea will happen. 4 wheel steer is good, and the retractable bed cover is very neat, as are the side loading doors. Stuff like that will see production, I bet.
HCD7: Hyundai never builds any of their radical concepts. I liked the HCD1 roadster, remember it was supposed to sell for $15k with 150hp? The rear of the concept was not figured out properly.
Maruader drop-top: just do it. Mercury needs all the image help it can get. It would be the roomiest convertible, and a cult car.
Bonny G/XP: FWD, 270hp? Pontiac needs AWD to be truly sporty. Or RWD.
Gran Prix gForce: styling is way overdone. Cladding is gone, but the styling is so radical the impression is still the same. Headroom will be poor, with low doors like the Intrepid. The rear looks like the Sunfire, a cheap car. 4 speeds only? Stabilitrak is needed to tame 280hp and FWD. See Bonny.
Sky: cute outside. I DETEST the center mounted dash, like in the awful selling Echo and Prius. What are they thinking? It's a dumb idea. I hope the whole idea dies an ugly death. It encourages back-seat drivers, what a nightmare. Third door is clever, as is the 2 or 2+2 seating.
Tundra: wow, that rear taillight is sooooo ugly! It looks like it's going backwards! Here is a truck with no utility. Smaller bed (they say it's the same width between the wheels, but the rest of the bed is far more narrow). And 245hp? In a sport truck? Compacts have that much, this is supposed to be in the big leagues.
-juice
http://www.canandiandriver.com/news/020107na-6.htm
Just my $.02
Tribute uses a part-time RBC (rotary blade coupling), though. It won't help torque-steer at all. I haven't driven the 2002 yet, so I'm not sure how well the FWD powertrain puts down the 200 horses. At least traction control is offered, so the axle is managed.
What do you guys think of the new Kia SUV? Looks kind of cute. Watch out, Santa Fe.
-juice
-mike
I only know what I here at sales meetings with the Subaru execs. But so far they were pretty close with information about the Baja, Forester and Legacy. Originally Baja and Forester were supposed to be supercharged. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/bestcars/images/photo_pt_cruiser_woody.jpg
-Dave
Ben: are you referring to the Traviq? That's really just a redabged Opel. Opel makes good cars, but they're not Subies, they're 100% GM.
For the US, I'd like to see a longitudinal engine layout and AWD, for the symmetrical powertrain layout they talk about so much in their ads.
Besides that, the Traviq is small for US tastes. It actually looks a little smaller than the original Odyssey/Oasis.
Dave: yes, there was a Forester Woody concept. Subaru recycled the wood from a display stand from a previous show. I say leave it as just a concept! It screams station wagon.
-juice
-mike
-juice
Bob
http://www.apexjapan.com/
It may be that the Legacy is geared 7% shorter than the Outback, because noone thought the H6 was that much quicker in the Outback models.
-juice
Bob
-juice
GM Pickups: too much chrome. Chevy looks worse, not better. They are the kings of ugly face-lifts. Cool turn-signals in the mirrors. 4WS a good idea. That steering wheel is UG-LEE!
Ram: that thing is a monster truck. People are going to love 'em.
Mustang SVT: Ford has ruined the nice retro lines over the years. I liked the ones that reminded you of the '64 1/2. The hood looks swollen, and it keeps getting uglier. 390hp, wow, that's 'vette territory. It's too heavy, though.
Liberty Renegade: purely cosmetic profit padding. I'm sure it'll sell well! Flares copy the VehiCross and Frontier. Lights look goofy. Remocable running boards? I don't even see the cool metal interior from the Limited in the photos. I prefer the Ltd.
Sorento: look out, Liberty and XTerra. Kia looks good, with a stylish SUV that looks like a face-lifted RX300 for half the price. Why just 192 horses from 3.5 liters? Honda makes 240 horses. Nice fender flares. Kia sales are up and will continue the trend. This is what the XTerra should have been - back-to-basics but affordable.
They have the Sonata (Hyundai owns Kia) to go after car-based SUVs, so this offers a truck alternative. Kia really nailed the styling. Eat your heart out, Lexus.
-juice