Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · February 2002

I do have a bulls' eye on me when I drive. Hmm, but then I'm stuck with FWD until it happens. Choices, choices...

Too much space? That's funny. Did you know the new Expedition has a center middle-row seat that can be moved forward, so the parents in the front can reach a baby in that seat?

See, the Forester was designed that way on purpose! ;-)

-juice

rsholland · February 2002

http://www.apexjapan.com/

miksmi · February 2002

Spock, explain! (a quick search didn't turn up much)

..Mike

ateixeira · February 2002

Isn't it a type of Torsen (torque sensing)?

-juice

kens · February 2002

I think so too. Helical would imply how the gears are cut. Sounds like a type of Torsen to me. I guess Subaru wants to differentiate it with their viscous LSD without using the Torsen brand name.

Ken

bsvoller · February 2002

While we're on the topic of "roomier" vehicles, I'd like to see Subaru build a mini-van similar to the Mazda MPV, second edition. It would need:

-3.0 V6 making 225hp
-5 speed auto
-AWD, ABS, VDC
-4 wheel disc brakes w/EBFC
-17" tires
-Wider stance: 63" track
-7 passenger seating
-Rolldown 2nd row windows
-"Side-by-Slide" 2nd row captains chairs, with extended fore/aft movement
-"Magic" 3rd row seat
-Dimensions similar to MPV (187" overall, 112" wheelbase, 73" wide, i.e. a little wider than MPV)
-Dual sliding doors
-Full size spare
-Class II tow capacity
-Curb weight under 4000#
-5* crash rating, airbags, etc
-Priced in the mid-20's real world

For those familiar with the 2002 MPV, this should look familiar. I see the MPV as a cross-over vehicle whose exterior dimensions are similar to a mid-size wagon, but with the interior flexibility of a mini-van, and handling similar to a sports sedan. The changes I'm calling for are mostly related to AWD, tow capability and minor tweaks to the MPV interior (wider, more leg room in the second row when 3rd row empty).

locke2c · February 2002

helical limited slip = torsen or some other automatic biasing differential with worm gears.

look here

on a driven front differential they make a huge difference, since you can limit slip and also allow the outside wheel to turn faster.

-Colin

paisan · February 2002

Never a V6, maybe an H6.

The MPV has been just another mini-van ever since they killed the REAL MPV (Front Engine Rear Drive or 4wd) I think it even had low range in that format too.

-mike

rsholland · February 2002

is Subaru's minivan, and on sale in Japan and elsewhere. It's an Opel, rebadged as a Subie, and with AWD.

Bob

bsvoller · February 2002

My bad. Make that an H-6. This may be heresy here, but the MPV isn't just another mini-van because it handles so nice, and it isn't a bus.

I think there's a market for a sporty people-hauler that combines some of the Honda's features with better handling, but maybe that's just me. The industry seems to think that people with kids don't want to have fun tooling around town. I think they've been listening to their own product placement pieces too much.

With Honda going to a 240hp 6 cylinder and the 5-speed this year, they've moved the bar again. On the other hand, at nearly 4500#, anything less would be underpowered.

The original MPV certainly had some nice things going for it, but it never really caught on.

ateixeira · February 2002

Traviq is small for the US. Look at the new Odyssey (MSRP + mark up) and the old Odyssey (a flop). The Traviq even resembles the old Ody.

I'd be extremely pleased with Brian's list of features on an MPV-sized competitor.

paisan: the 2002 MPV got a long list of big improvements, that ought to make it very competitive. It's interior is the most versatile of any minivan, including the Ody (the rear windows open and the 2nd row slides to the side).

Power was down, but it now makes 200hp and has a 5 speed auto to put that down effectively, plus it's about the lightest van out there. Add traction control, power sliding doors, and factory entertainment options, and this is what consumers want (not you, I realize that).

Put is this way, which minivan would you buy today? Subaru/Isuzu doesn't make one. Not including the full size vans.

-juice

paisan · February 2002

Oh it's a great Mini-van, but the market doesn't particularly like mini-vans. See comments in another thread about 30 and 40 somethings who don't like the mini-van stigma. I think AWD mini-vans are AWSOME as that is what 95%+ of the SUV buyers out there really need but are afraid to buy due to the stigma.

My personal favorite is the Safari AWD mid-van and in 2nd place the Aerostar AWD and 3rd the TC or SC Previa AWD mini-van

-mike

ateixeira · February 2002

Gotcha, the segment has been shrinking, with more competitors showing up to split a smaller pie (Sedona comes to mind).

Still, Subaru's a tiny niche player, and with 1% market share it's not like they'd need lots of conquest sales.

I remember they kept the Aerostar around even after the Windstar arrived because sales were strong. You love those full frames, eh? ;-)

-juice

paisan · February 2002

Yep, see when I buy a vehicle, that can hold say 8 passengers, to me that is 8 passengers plus all their gear. If you take these smaller mini-vans and actually use them to full capacity, they can't hack it. If I was buying a mini-van and only using 5 seats, I wouldn't get a mini-van I'd get a sedan or wagon!

I like a vehicle that can handle all the people it says it can hold + their gear, which most vehicles cannot do very well! The Safari and Aerostar (note: it's a ford and I am praising it) can hold all the people and their gear that they say it can hold!

-mike

bluesubie · February 2002

I still say Subaru should've built the Exiga (albeit a little cleaner looking :-) ):
http://www.subaru.net/prototype/exiga.html

I guess at the time, they didn't have money for production.
Features I like:
- Engine: 3.0 Litre DOHC 4 cam 24 valve horizontally opposed 6 cylinder
- Max Output:240ps/6000rpm
- Max Torque:32.0kg-m/4800rpm
- Tire:225/45R17
- The newly developed suspension system employs double wishbones on the front and a multi-link setup on the rear

- The Exiga is fitted with the advanced VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) active safety system, and the ADA (Active Drive Assist) system which is designed to anticipate and help prevent accidents caused by human error.

I don't know if I would actually buy a minivan.
My wife wouldn't and not even my mom. Although there have been times that we needed one.
When my parents were visting over the holidays, we actually drove both Scooby's to visit my mother-in-law (1 - 1 1/2 hour drive to Queens, NY)

-Dennis

bsvoller · February 2002

OK, I'll go out on a limb here... Why not fix the stigma ? Subaru's built a tidy little business poking fun at the Excursion's of the world. And I think the SUV craze has probably peaked - everyone's got one, so what's the big deal. Add to that the downsides that a large portion of owners have now personally experienced (pain to park, handle like a ship at sea, guzzle gas, rollover risk, expensive, never took it off-road afterall, etc), and maybe the time is ripe to attack the stigma. Practically speaking, a mini-van is a better fit (rational, left-brain speaking here) for almost everyone that ownes a big SUV, excepting all those who actually tow big loads and do go off-road. No ?

ateixeira · February 2002

You are a special case, though. Most minivan owners have 2-3 kids and just want a couple of extra seats so their kids can bring a friend or two. So usually it's 2 adults and the rest little tikes.

It's funny, our toddler takes up much less space now than she did as a baby. The difference is huge. We fit easily on trips now. When the 2nd baby arrives, we'll probably be tight, but again only for a year or so. So maybe a van is overkill, especially for a temporary need.

-juice

ateixeira · February 2002

I'd like an Exiga-style vehicle, too, and maybe that's what the 2005 SUW will end up being. Let's see how much Subaru influence there is, and how badly the GM parts-bin is raided (hopefully little).

In fact, it probably makes more sense for Subaru to focus on that.

I think the big SUVs sales will drop, but SUVs like the Pilot (roomy mid-sizers with high seating capacity) will thrive in their place.

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

You make a good point on exceeding capacity, but I said 7 places, not 8, and on a smaller chassis, you're really talking 4 places plus gear, or 7 places and no (or limited) gear, which would suit me just fine.

Your point on not exceeding load capacity goes for any vehicle, SUV's included. How many people know that loading an Explorer or any other tall vehicle with stiff springs to capacity doubles the rollover risk ?

I'm a form follows function kind of guy. Not that I don't appreciate aesthetics, quite the contrary. But know what you want it for and how you'll use it before you put down the cash. And respect the design intentions of the builders.

ateixeira · February 2002

In my case, I'd be taking 6-7 passengers for only short distances (car pool, sports, etc). Trips would be with only 4-5 passengers.

It's funny, in Brazil there is no such stigma. Cars are small, and size is viewed as a luxury few can afford. So vans are highly desirable.

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

I spent a lot of years working in Germany, and we saw that there too. Big cars depreciated like there was no tomorrow, but little cars held their value extremely well.

Our uses for a mini-van sound similar to yours, but I'd add regular trips to HomeDepot. As to a mini-van being overkill after the kids get past infancy, I tend to agree, which is why I like the MPV - it's less of a compromise over the longer term that we keep our vehicles.

ateixeira · February 2002

Home Depot? Once in a while. I haven't really had a need for lots of room, and we're just going to have our mulch delivered.

I can see a van being useful while the kids are in school, maybe up until junior high, when image becomes a big issue. Then I'll drop them off in my 2008 SVX convertible. ;-)

-juice

bluesubie · February 2002

Brian - Take a look at the Exiga above. I agree with juice with regards to the GM/Subaru SUW.

-Dennis

paisan · February 2002

That was the problem Ihad with the legacy wagon. I was all set to buy it til I realized it wouldn't hold 5 people + gear + trailer, whereas my Trooper easily holds 5 people + gear + trailer. I see your points though of not really using them for 8 people + gear, just using em for 7 or 8 people.

-mike

ateixeira · February 2002

Though I'm partial to smaller, sportier cars, my wife would prefer a large mid-sizer or even a full size car. I mean Avalon sized.

Subaru will have a bigger-than-Legacy platform when the SUW comes out, so it'll be interesting to see if they build a bigger sedan off that chassis.

That might please even the paisan-sized among us. :-)

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

I took a look at the Exiga, and it looks to be missing the head room I like. That head room comes in handy for hauling boxing items like furniture, etc, that won't fit in a wagon (Oak
Express anyone ?)

It's also nice on cross-country trips - you don't feel quite so closed in. Out here in the Mountain West, points of interest are a long ways apart. It seems like we drive 12 hours one-way no matter where we go...

ateixeira · February 2002

We've got Oak Post. I got a dining table, 4 chairs, and 3 barstools, and we fit everthing inside my Forester and my cousin's Outback.

Exiga was a concept - so the 3 rows of seats in a powerful, luxurious wagon were just a hint of what they could do. Though in reality is was pre-2000 Outback, so I don't think it directly hints at the 2005 SUW.

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

I've been pleasantly surprised at what we get into our Forester too. Nevertheless, I still hit the limit occasionally. I should plan farther ahead and get stuff delivered more often... I'm refinishing our basement, and there's no end to what I need. With Spring around the corner, I'll be working in the yard next...

ateixeira · February 2002

You need a utility trailer. Check Sam's Club, Bob saw a real nice one there.

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

Agreed. I looked at that, and it would fit the bill. Unfortunately, I've used our RV parking space for our camper. I doubt the neighbor's would be thrilled with our parking a trailer next to the house...

ateixeira · February 2002

Cover it with a large tarp or something?

-juice

bsvoller · February 2002

Yea, or park it around back or something. Our lot's not huge, so it is an issue... Maybe find someone with space and the same need and share ?

ateixeira · February 2002

I thought about sharing, too. My cousin and his neighbor want a trailer, but in the end I was still stuck storing it.

It's a like a pool. It's better to have a close friend or neighbor that owns one, vs. owning it yourself.

-juice

goldencouple1 · February 2002

Check out the Toyota sludge story at www.autonews.com. Don't fiddle with what works. Your Highlander may not be your best friend.

ateixeira · February 2002

Just read that in the print edition of Automotive News. Shame on Toyota. Pitiful treatment of their customers. Why should they have even had to sue to get engines fixed under warranty?

And the cars affected aren't cheap - Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, Celica, Highlander, and even two Lexus models (EX and RX).

-juice

PS This affects 3.3 MILLION vehicles, wow!

ateixeira · February 2002

We didn't get a chance to chat much about Chicago, and I was out of town, so I'll share some thoughts just to hear your reactions.

Terra4: GMC is overdoing everything, but the hybrid idea will happen. 4 wheel steer is good, and the retractable bed cover is very neat, as are the side loading doors. Stuff like that will see production, I bet.

HCD7: Hyundai never builds any of their radical concepts. I liked the HCD1 roadster, remember it was supposed to sell for $15k with 150hp? The rear of the concept was not figured out properly.

Maruader drop-top: just do it. Mercury needs all the image help it can get. It would be the roomiest convertible, and a cult car.

Bonny G/XP: FWD, 270hp? Pontiac needs AWD to be truly sporty. Or RWD.

Gran Prix gForce: styling is way overdone. Cladding is gone, but the styling is so radical the impression is still the same. Headroom will be poor, with low doors like the Intrepid. The rear looks like the Sunfire, a cheap car. 4 speeds only? Stabilitrak is needed to tame 280hp and FWD. See Bonny.

Sky: cute outside. I DETEST the center mounted dash, like in the awful selling Echo and Prius. What are they thinking? It's a dumb idea. I hope the whole idea dies an ugly death. It encourages back-seat drivers, what a nightmare. Third door is clever, as is the 2 or 2+2 seating.

Tundra: wow, that rear taillight is sooooo ugly! It looks like it's going backwards! Here is a truck with no utility. Smaller bed (they say it's the same width between the wheels, but the rest of the bed is far more narrow). And 245hp? In a sport truck? Compacts have that much, this is supposed to be in the big leagues.

-juice

cb70 · February 2002

Thanks for the link. Being new to Subie's I've never seen that concept. It got my curiosity piqued as I'm looking at a similar vehicle that will be out next year. You guys see the Chrysler Pacifica yet? Hopefully it doesn't go through the same disaster that the Jeep GC went through. Love the looks of the car and I am curious to see what the final version costs and looks like.

http://www.canandiandriver.com/news/020107na-6.htm

big_guy · February 2002

That has been a frequent request on the MPV boards . . . and in Japan, the new generation MPV is available with the same AWD system as the Tribute . . . not exactlyon the same page as the venerable system on the Subaru but not bad for a minivan. Now if we could just convince Mazda USA to import that AWD MPV to the states I think there would be a lot of takers.

Just my $.02

ateixeira · February 2002

Pacifica should be a hit. DCX sedans overlap too much. Intrepid looks like the Concorde, which looks like the LHS, which looks like the 300M, and so on. From the profile they are all clones. They swap the beak and the butt, that's it.

Tribute uses a part-time RBC (rotary blade coupling), though. It won't help torque-steer at all. I haven't driven the 2002 yet, so I'm not sure how well the FWD powertrain puts down the 200 horses. At least traction control is offered, so the axle is managed.

What do you guys think of the new Kia SUV? Looks kind of cute. Watch out, Santa Fe.

-juice

paisan · February 2002

It's anything but cute. It's a full framed dealio! That truck should do great. It's a real truck and will have my beloved TOD system

and RWD based

and Low Range!

-mike

subypower · February 2002

Apparently, a mini-van from Subaru is on the slate for 2005-2006. You can see pictures of what it will probably look like at www.subaru.net. Many pics form the tokyo auto show. Why they haven't moved this project along faster is beyond me. We would sell a ton of these vans in the northeast.

I only know what I here at sales meetings with the Subaru execs. But so far they were pretty close with information about the Baja, Forester and Legacy. Originally Baja and Forester were supposed to be supercharged. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

hypov · February 2002

Didn't this idea ran by on the Forester?

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/bestcars/images/photo_pt_cruiser_woody.jpg

-Dave

ateixeira · February 2002

I'll check out the production cars from the Chicago show, including the Sorento. Hey, isn't that an Italian brand of cheese? It's named after your paisanos! ;-)

Ben: are you referring to the Traviq? That's really just a redabged Opel. Opel makes good cars, but they're not Subies, they're 100% GM.

For the US, I'd like to see a longitudinal engine layout and AWD, for the symmetrical powertrain layout they talk about so much in their ads.

Besides that, the Traviq is small for US tastes. It actually looks a little smaller than the original Odyssey/Oasis.

Dave: yes, there was a Forester Woody concept. Subaru recycled the wood from a display stand from a previous show. I say leave it as just a concept! It screams station wagon.

-juice

paisan · February 2002

Is american, not Italian! Although Sorento I believe is a city in the Mother Land!

-mike

ateixeira · February 2002

OK, so it's named after an Italian city, close enough! :-)

-juice

rsholland · February 2002

They mention you can really feel the new-found extra power down low.

Bob

http://www.apexjapan.com/

ateixeira · February 2002

This says it all: "it is a lot faster than an RS 25, in all aspects and all scenarios".

It may be that the Legacy is geared 7% shorter than the Outback, because noone thought the H6 was that much quicker in the Outback models.

-juice

rsholland · February 2002

has been "tweaked." It's not the same as our current H-6. There's more bottom-end power.

Bob

ateixeira · February 2002

Bring it here, fast. The H6 is desirable but didn't get the press Subaru was hoping for. The tweaked one sounds like just the fix.

-juice

ateixeira · February 2002

Fridays are slow, so I'll share thoughts on a few more new cars.

GM Pickups: too much chrome. Chevy looks worse, not better. They are the kings of ugly face-lifts. Cool turn-signals in the mirrors. 4WS a good idea. That steering wheel is UG-LEE!

Ram: that thing is a monster truck. People are going to love 'em.

Mustang SVT: Ford has ruined the nice retro lines over the years. I liked the ones that reminded you of the '64 1/2. The hood looks swollen, and it keeps getting uglier. 390hp, wow, that's 'vette territory. It's too heavy, though.

Liberty Renegade: purely cosmetic profit padding. I'm sure it'll sell well! Flares copy the VehiCross and Frontier. Lights look goofy. Remocable running boards? I don't even see the cool metal interior from the Limited in the photos. I prefer the Ltd.

Sorento: look out, Liberty and XTerra. Kia looks good, with a stylish SUV that looks like a face-lifted RX300 for half the price. Why just 192 horses from 3.5 liters? Honda makes 240 horses. Nice fender flares. Kia sales are up and will continue the trend. This is what the XTerra should have been - back-to-basics but affordable.

They have the Sonata (Hyundai owns Kia) to go after car-based SUVs, so this offers a truck alternative. Kia really nailed the styling. Eat your heart out, Lexus.

-juice

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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