saw a new Ram on the way home today - the one with the large wheel package. they must be like 20" rims or something. huge!
going to the chicago show tomorrow - getting there at 10am (when the doors open). usually the crowds build early and by noon it's tough to walk around - or get pictures without someone in your way. of course, I'll be just taking a whole memory stick full of Forester pics anyway.
Article in today's paper about GM's concept car the Pontiac Solstice convertible. They mentioned how GM was reducing the development costs by using a veritible spare parts bin to include "steering from Subaru".
There was a 2nd article about the CrossTrainer, Ford's latest car/SUV hybrid concept. "It's an SUV with the lower height and smoother ride of a car." Sounds like Ford is finally figuring out what Subaru's known for years! :-)
Yeah... if I recall correctly what I read, the Solstice has steering from the WRX and a transmission from the Corvette. Not a bad company to be in for Subaru.
The following is cut from an article about the new Nissan Altima, written by an Edmunds Editor:
Nissan in particular has been on a roll these past few years. Starting with the all-new Sentra, Maxima and Xterra in 2000, and followed up by a refurbished (and more powerful) Pathfinder and Frontier in 2001, the company has learned some basic truths about American buyers. Specifically, we Yanks like our cars roomy and powerful...
I agree about the power, but to a certain extent roomy isn't in Subaru's market. Remember, this is Subaru-- a successful, but tiny niche player.
They're not Nissan, Honda, or Toyota. They tried to compete head-to-head in the compact market around 1993 and it was a mistake-- Impreza sales were just a footnote for years. They should have brought the Impreza turbo in right away, and forgot about trying to matchup the 1.8L against the Civic, Sentra and Corolla. Even if it compared favorably those guys are on a whole different scale than Subaru. But yes, I do know that even Nissan, Honda and Toyota had to start somewhere.
So roomy in the current lineup with perhaps a minivan-- sure. Roomy in the sense of making bigger and heavier vehicles-- no, I disagree. Power... oh yeah, bring it on.
I agree with what both of you are saying, with the following exception:
While the current models are okay in terms of size, I do think—in time, that there could be a larger platform added to the lineup, as an addition—and not a replacement to any one model. Perhaps the larger GM/Subaru SUV platform will also produce a yet-to-be-announced sedan? Something similar to the Forester/Impreza relationship, only larger, with a wheelbase in the 110" neighborhood. Sort of a AWD value-priced Audi A-6, or Volvo S-60, or BMW 5-Series type of vehicle.
I basically agree with both of you. Colin, the article mentioned Yanks, roomy and Powerful, while I said the key words were Yanks and powerful. For the most part I like the size of the Subarus. Hopefully the new Forester has just a little more room in the back seat area. I'm sure Bob is right that there will be a larger van-type vehicle added in the future. Personally, what I can hardly stand is those big, enormous, two parking space taking vans/suvs you see at the grocery store every day. What I do really like is a nice size vehicle (Legacy Size) with power that makes me feel like I'm driving. Just my opinion.
<< I'm sure Bob is right that there will be a larger van-type vehicle added in the future. >>
This is a given. It's well known that GM and Subaru are developing a larger SUV, to be released around 2005 or 2006. It will be badged as a Subaru, and there will a GM version as well; GM division as yet to be announced.
I could see several future spin-offs from this platform: a larger sedan, as mentioned; and perhaps a larger pickup too.
I'm talking 5 or more years down the road. I think by that time Subaru will be a larger company, and can afford to expand their marketplace into areas they have not ventured into before. Remember, it wasn't that long ago when Honda was the same size Subaru is today. Anything's possible.
but I like my wagons and minivans. I know it is a shrinking segment, but I didn't buy it to impress anyone but me! We have had the Odyssey for two weeks, which replaces the '00 Windstar, which followed the '97 GC Sport. With each van, the car-like handling, power, braking, luxury just keeps getting better. Call me dull, but when we want to take my parents, friends, out to dinner, the mall - its one car, not two. Living in a rural spot 20 miles from anything, that is a big deal. No it won't hold luggage for 7 easily, but when we have traveled, the excess bags went in the soft pack up on the roof rack.
Beth wanted the sliding door, higher bucket second row when we got Emily as a baby. Her back just couldn't handle the stretch into the Toyota wagons with conventional doors.
With the Honda, the 'magic seat' stays in the well unless needed, leaving a space you could store another car in! Now if it only had AWD...
I'm not sure you really need AWD on a heavier vehicle like that unless you plan on doing lots of travelling on bad roads. Having had AWD cars - Audi/Subaru - for almost 20 years now and minivans for 8 I can say that a FWD minivan with good snow tires is more than adequate 99% of the time, add traction ocntrol and its 99.9% of the time. I am always amazed at how well our 00 Windstar and 00 Venture handle in the snow with snowtires.Admittedly, you also have to drive a little more "conservatively" but in terms of getting stuck, its never happened, unlike our previous FWD Honda/Toyota/VW or RWD BMW car products even with snowtires. But as I always like to harp on about, a good FWD or RWD car with good tires is better than an AWD one with bad ones (and bad includes almost every OEM "all season" when it comes to snow performance)!Anyone who thinks OEM all seasons do well in snow has obviously never driven the same vehicle with good snowtires on it!
There are a lot of places where it snows where snow tires would be overkill, impractical and/or too expensive. I live in one of them -- New Mexico. But it can snow enough -- enough inches, enough days, in enough places that AWD is a great thing to have. And I like to go skiing -- and here when you take that long drive to the ski area, you may encounter a long drive on dry warm roads, then hit snow and ice on the last 20 or 40 miles. Or in the summer, I might go camping and end up driving 20 or 40 miles on a well maintained dirt road in a pouring rain (I've done that, white knuckles on the wheel).
I think that a vehicle in which you can carry lots of stuff or people (or both) safely and conveniently is a great idea. I won't argue that snow tires are not very effective -- I saw a magazine article where snow tires on a RWD beat M&S tires on an AWD. Fine. But that makes sense only in a few regions of the country and during certain times of the year.
has a mini web site of both the new Forester and Baja. Both take a while to load. In fact, I never could get the Baja site to load properly. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did.
I did get the Forester site up and running, and there is more info and pixs. It appears that the Canadian Forester will be "contented" the same as the American Forester.
Went to the show yesterday (hope to have pics up soon). While I was taking a few pics of the Baja, the spokesperson ranting on the mic said that the Baja MAY get a different engine by the time the Baja is available. Hmmm, does Subaru know you're saying this?
Also, I'll be hitting the Milwaukee show this coming weekend (Feb 23). While it doesn't have nearly the selection of vehicles on display, I'll try to get more pics.
Thanks Bob. Really nice site. My wife is going to love this vehicle. Only thing I could not tell was if there is more room in the back seat area. Have seen and heard hints that it is larger but noone has posted they have actually saw the vehicle and it indeed does have more room. Did anyone go to the Chicago Show? Any response? I hope to see the new Forester at the Dallas show at the end of the month. Don't know for sure if it will be there. If it is it will really make my trip worthwhile. Thanks again Bob. You come up with a lot of stuff and comments I enjoy.
Saying it took a while to load is an understatement, boy that is one pathetic site.
Everytime you click on a photo you almost have to go through the same loading process, even when you click for the english version it is the same reload crap.
I had no problem with the site. Loaded quickly and ran beautifully. Cable modem, though, probably makes all the difference.
I just realized something on the new Forester. Still no power seat!! Ugh! I'd have to try it out, but I'm willing to bet that I still can't fit comfortably in this for long drives.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
which is probably why I have problems. I do have Flash Reader. I tried it on both Explorer and Netscape. Only Netscape would load the Forester site; it got hung up on the Baja site, and never fully loaded.
I really do wish Subaru of would offer non-Flash versions of their respective sites. And... when will we see an English version of the SOJ site—and not just an English version of what they sell in Europe, but what they sell in Japan? Think it will ever happen? If Subaru of Canada can offer both French and English versions of their site, is it too much to ask that SOJ do the same? Afterall, English is really an "international" language these days.
I'm still mulling over the idea of an AWD mini van. And as I do so I cannot help but think back on my (big) brother's VW bus. It was just a big box with an engine in the back. And it was to me, a twelve-year old kid, the coolest thing ever. Riding in the front seat was an experience that will be with me forever: flying, careening through traffic almost naked. It was a motorized box that held everything that was essential to a good time: diving gear, bikes, a hand-made platform with a six inch foam mattress for naps (so my brother said). I remember the day we went to Sears and got a primitive roof-rack, and then to the canoe store for something to put on the rack, and then to the river. That bus -- it was used under adverse conditions in Colorado, Florida, Ohio, and then New Mexico -- it was a hiking, biking, diving, backpacking base-camp. I remember splashing through huge puddles in Lincoln National Forest using my grandfather's theory about puddle driving -- drive like hell, with as much speed as you can, and try to push to the far side of the puddle before you get stuck.
Maybe it is only my memory (or my generation) talking, but I cannot see how an AWD mini van (or name it what you will) would not be a huge success. I mean, what are SUV's really, I mean really? They started out as big old station wagons set up to get over rough roads -- carry stuff and people. Maybe they've taken on a "style" of their own, but they're really station wagons and mini vans in disguise: just a box with a motor in it.
Man, I loved that VW bus. Of course, I didn't have to drive it.
Very odd. The Baja site loads right up at home but the Forester site does not. Just zipped to my office and the Forester site presents no problem. I have no explanation at all. The Canadian Forester seems to indeed be getting closer to the US equipment. It's being de-contented. I noticed, for example, that the tweeters are no longer standard on the "S" aka "XS". Sigh.
Thanks for the link rsholland. Did anyone else notice under transmissions, 5MT & Auto 4EAT with controlled variable transfer clutch (optional). Would that be like the center diff on the STI where you can adjust the amount of lock in the center diff or would it let you adjust the amount of drive to the front & rear? Very interesting. Also only XS' get the Viscous rear limited slip diff.
No, the controlled variable transfer clutch is the tried and true AWD system found on the 4EAT models. The AWD system used in the WRC is quite a different system from what I understand.
My wife says the Legacy is too small for her. I like small, nimble vehicles, but I can't even get her to test drive a Legacy GT sedan or LL Bean Outback.
So yes, I think using the 2005 SUW platform for a sedan, too, may be a good idea. In fact I think it could replace the VDC models in the lineup.
The minivan market is shrinking, and there are more and more models competing. It's pretty cut-throat, so I doubt Subaru would invest much to enter that market. So we'd get a Traviq instead of a new model. It's not a real Subie, though, so I pass.
Test drove the '02 MPV Friday. What a ride ! There's more power both off the line and at passing speeds, but considerably less body roll than our '01 Forester S+. The new engine and 5 speed auto really make a difference. Very quiet. Great feedback from the road, but not busy. Mazda has finally delivered the "zoom, zoom". No AWD, of course, but traction control. Brakes work great too. Overall the feature set is very complete. Love the 2nd row roll-down windows. Enough tow capacity to be useable: 3000 lbs + 500 lbs in the van. Need trailer brakes above 2000 lbs, and weight-distributing hitch for 3000, but that's all doable or already done in our case.
My biggest complaint on the Forester is the brakes. We'll hit 30k this year, and I'm going to do something to make it stop better, I just haven't figured out what yet. Not only is our pedal softer than we like, it's just plain reluctant. I want to feel the deceleration when I ask for it, please, thank you very much.
The '98 tested (Consumer Reports) very well (<130' from 60 mph), but the '00 tested only average (144' from 60). I think they did something to soften the system, but I haven't found anyone with the details.
first on the to-do list should be flushing the brake fluid and bleeding. that could possibly help quite a lot.
I use valvoline synpower brake fluid in all my vehicles. it performs very well, is affordable, and can be found at just about any autoparts store or even wal-mart.
anyway, just a thought. we should take this to maintenance & repair if you want to discuss further... interesting comments on the new MPV btw.
Yes, Ken, and without being a wagon or minivan, i.e. almost impossible. I think it's a conspiracy to keep us from spending cash.
Saw Brian's pix, great job BTW.
The Compass looked odd until I heard Jeep would try to sell it for $15k. If so, go for it.
The Mazda 6 is a looker. That is one sharp looking line of cars. 4 door, 5 door, wagon, no matter, all look great. MPV gets big improvements, too, though the ads with the Miata go a bit too far.
Brian likes the new 7, but he's in the minority I believe. I can't stand it.
2003 Forester comments:
* like the seatback map pockets, do they exist now? * rear seat still looks tight * cargo area looks the same, nice nets though * are those lights in the top outer corner DRLs? * seats look really bolstered, neat ratchets a la WRX * so THERE are the cupholders, like the Legacy * neat pocket in the passenger foot well * overall the dash looks like the Acura RL, go figure * nice glowing key ring, better than just a light * HVAC buttons within the round knobs * bottom looks the same: I see the fuel vapor canister, rear diffy, 13 or 15mm sway bar, exhaust with same turn as current model, less clearance in the front as it is now
So about what we expected, but nice to see it pictured.
I don't really care for the blank looking dash (replaced by that joystick thingy). After seeing it in person, I'd probably like a 5 series better. But, those are both not in the cards (nor practical) for us.
Couldn't check out the lights on the Forester (need the key!). I was wondering what that corner light was.
I saw the MPV/miata commercial yesterday. Guess Mazda doesn't think we get the point. "Zoom, Zoom, Zoom" played throughout the Mazda section of the show, btw.
We'll probably end up getting a mini-van of some sort within a year or so. Not sure we could wait for the Subaru SUW, or if it would appeal to us (read that as 'appeal to my wife')
I also never thought I'd say that I actually LIKE a Mazda. (thanks for the review Brian #2!)
I think I had the tow ratings a bit scrambled. I'm pretty sure is was trailer brakes above 1000# and weight-distributing hitch above 2000#. 3000# is the limit, and leaves 500# above the combined curb weight (3000# trailer + van curb weight empty) in the gross combined vehicle limit. There were also some restrictions on frontal area, but I didn't read them closely since we have a low-profile camper.
Up until last year, you could simply bolt on a sub $200 class II hitch to the Honda Odyssey and be on your way. I go ahead and buy an '02, only to find that now Honda requires coolers for PS & tranny, plus some other minor stuff, adding about $500 to the modification.
Guess when I have to tow, I will just do it with the OB.
Talked to my dealer yesterday. I was told, unofficially of course, that somewhere along the line, the new Forester will get a new 2.5l H4 turbo putting out 238 hp. The H6 doesn't appear to be on the horizon.
Interestingly I was perusing my owners manual on the trooper and it stated that due to federal/state laws they don't suggest towing anything over 1000lbs w/o trailer brakes! I regularly tow my 3000+lb boat trailer w/o brakes and haven't had any problems (even in panic stops) cause I had assumed anything at or under 3K lbs was fine w/o brakes! Go figure.
Towing limitations are set up through the legal department to lessen liability concerns, they do not represent the actual capabilities of the vehicle. There are varying laws from state to state on towing requirements, and the towing limitation is set to the most restrictive requirement.
Thanks tincup. I figured as much since the same vehicle in AUS has totally different brakeing rules! I was just suprised since I know Bob has complained on here alot about the forester requirement of brakes over 1000lbs.
Brian: I cut that "Zoom Zoom" song onto CD, it's actually the theme song from the movie "Only the Strong", about capoeira, an afro-brazilian martial art. People LOL when I play that song in my Miata.
238hp turbo sounds good to me! Where do I sign? Wow, I hope so. That's not light pressure, though, that's a full-blown 2.5l, perhaps sans intercooler.
tincup nailed it. The H6 Subies won a tow car of the year award, yet SoA's US lawyers still set the limit at a rather lame 1000 pounds on an unbraked (just about all) trailer.
Comments
going to the chicago show tomorrow - getting there at 10am (when the doors open). usually the crowds build early and by noon it's tough to walk around - or get pictures without someone in your way.
-Brian
Great, Brian. Check out the rear suspension, back seat, and the wheelbase, too.
-juice
There was a 2nd article about the CrossTrainer, Ford's latest car/SUV hybrid concept. "It's an SUV with the lower height and smoother ride of a car." Sounds like Ford is finally figuring out what Subaru's known for years! :-)
-Frank P.
--Bart
"hmm, lessee-- HEY! the Impreza rack will fit. let's say WRX, that's sexier."
-Colin
Bob
Nissan in particular has been on a roll these past few years. Starting with the all-new Sentra, Maxima and Xterra in 2000, and followed up by a refurbished (and more powerful) Pathfinder and Frontier in 2001, the company has learned some basic truths about American buyers. Specifically, we Yanks like our cars roomy and powerful...
The key words here are Yanks and Powerful.
I think he is right on target! What do you think?
Jim
I agree about the power, but to a certain extent roomy isn't in Subaru's market. Remember, this is Subaru-- a successful, but tiny niche player.
They're not Nissan, Honda, or Toyota. They tried to compete head-to-head in the compact market around 1993 and it was a mistake-- Impreza sales were just a footnote for years. They should have brought the Impreza turbo in right away, and forgot about trying to matchup the 1.8L against the Civic, Sentra and Corolla. Even if it compared favorably those guys are on a whole different scale than Subaru. But yes, I do know that even Nissan, Honda and Toyota had to start somewhere.
So roomy in the current lineup with perhaps a minivan-- sure. Roomy in the sense of making bigger and heavier vehicles-- no, I disagree. Power... oh yeah, bring it on.
-Colin
While the current models are okay in terms of size, I do think—in time, that there could be a larger platform added to the lineup, as an addition—and not a replacement to any one model. Perhaps the larger GM/Subaru SUV platform will also produce a yet-to-be-announced sedan? Something similar to the Forester/Impreza relationship, only larger, with a wheelbase in the 110" neighborhood. Sort of a AWD value-priced Audi A-6, or Volvo S-60, or BMW 5-Series type of vehicle.
Bob
Jim
This is a given. It's well known that GM and Subaru are developing a larger SUV, to be released around 2005 or 2006. It will be badged as a Subaru, and there will a GM version as well; GM division as yet to be announced.
I could see several future spin-offs from this platform: a larger sedan, as mentioned; and perhaps a larger pickup too.
I'm talking 5 or more years down the road. I think by that time Subaru will be a larger company, and can afford to expand their marketplace into areas they have not ventured into before. Remember, it wasn't that long ago when Honda was the same size Subaru is today. Anything's possible.
Bob
Beth wanted the sliding door, higher bucket second row when we got Emily as a baby. Her back just couldn't handle the stretch into the Toyota wagons with conventional doors.
With the Honda, the 'magic seat' stays in the well unless needed, leaving a space you could store another car in! Now if it only had AWD...
Steve
-mike
I think that a vehicle in which you can carry lots of stuff or people (or both) safely and conveniently is a great idea. I won't argue that snow tires are not very effective -- I saw a magazine article where snow tires on a RWD beat M&S tires on an AWD. Fine. But that makes sense only in a few regions of the country and during certain times of the year.
I did get the Forester site up and running, and there is more info and pixs. It appears that the Canadian Forester will be "contented" the same as the American Forester.
Bob
http://www.subaru.ca/
Also, I'll be hitting the Milwaukee show this coming weekend (Feb 23). While it doesn't have nearly the selection of vehicles on display, I'll try to get more pics.
-Brian
Jim
However, http://www.wrx.ca/ has an HTML link and a Flash link.
-Brian
Everytime you click on a photo you almost have to go through the same loading process, even when you click for the english version it is the same reload crap.
Cheers Pat.
I am so impatient at times I almost said to hell with it I do not have the time to wait for this, and I,m sure I am not the only one.
cheers Pat.
-Brian
I just realized something on the new Forester. Still no power seat!! Ugh! I'd have to try it out, but I'm willing to bet that I still can't fit comfortably in this for long drives.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I really do wish Subaru of would offer non-Flash versions of their respective sites. And... when will we see an English version of the SOJ site—and not just an English version of what they sell in Europe, but what they sell in Japan? Think it will ever happen? If Subaru of Canada can offer both French and English versions of their site, is it too much to ask that SOJ do the same? Afterall, English is really an "international" language these days.
Bob
Maybe it is only my memory (or my generation) talking, but I cannot see how an AWD mini van (or name it what you will) would not be a huge success. I mean, what are SUV's really, I mean really? They started out as big old station wagons set up to get over rough roads -- carry stuff and people. Maybe they've taken on a "style" of their own, but they're really station wagons and mini vans in disguise: just a box with a motor in it.
Man, I loved that VW bus. Of course, I didn't have to drive it.
Bob
Ross
Ken
-Dennis
-mike
Some STi models had the driver-adjustable center diff. Most of them did not, but yes, it was a normal production car option.
-Colin
I think you're right. The manually controlled AWD system is only for the rally car, not the STi.
Ken
My wife says the Legacy is too small for her. I like small, nimble vehicles, but I can't even get her to test drive a Legacy GT sedan or LL Bean Outback.
So yes, I think using the 2005 SUW platform for a sedan, too, may be a good idea. In fact I think it could replace the VDC models in the lineup.
The minivan market is shrinking, and there are more and more models competing. It's pretty cut-throat, so I doubt Subaru would invest much to enter that market. So we'd get a Traviq instead of a new model. It's not a real Subie, though, so I pass.
-juice
Sounds like your wife is looking for a big people hauler! That's gotta be frustrating -- not being able to sway her into the Subaru camp! :-)
That's okay. My wife doesn't get my obsession with our vehicles too. A little variety in the family doesn't hurt either.
Ken
-Brian
My biggest complaint on the Forester is the brakes. We'll hit 30k this year, and I'm going to do something to make it stop better, I just haven't figured out what yet. Not only is our pedal softer than we like, it's just plain reluctant. I want to feel the deceleration when I ask for it, please, thank you very much.
The '98 tested (Consumer Reports) very well (<130' from 60 mph), but the '00 tested only average (144' from 60). I think they did something to soften the system, but I haven't found anyone with the details.
I use valvoline synpower brake fluid in all my vehicles. it performs very well, is affordable, and can be found at just about any autoparts store or even wal-mart.
anyway, just a thought. we should take this to maintenance & repair if you want to discuss further... interesting comments on the new MPV btw.
-Colin
Saw Brian's pix, great job BTW.
The Compass looked odd until I heard Jeep would try to sell it for $15k. If so, go for it.
The Mazda 6 is a looker. That is one sharp looking line of cars. 4 door, 5 door, wagon, no matter, all look great. MPV gets big improvements, too, though the ads with the Miata go a bit too far.
Brian likes the new 7, but he's in the minority I believe. I can't stand it.
2003 Forester comments:
* like the seatback map pockets, do they exist now?
* rear seat still looks tight
* cargo area looks the same, nice nets though
* are those lights in the top outer corner DRLs?
* seats look really bolstered, neat ratchets a la WRX
* so THERE are the cupholders, like the Legacy
* neat pocket in the passenger foot well
* overall the dash looks like the Acura RL, go figure
* nice glowing key ring, better than just a light
* HVAC buttons within the round knobs
* bottom looks the same: I see the fuel vapor canister, rear diffy, 13 or 15mm sway bar, exhaust with same turn as current model, less clearance in the front as it is now
So about what we expected, but nice to see it pictured.
-juice
Couldn't check out the lights on the Forester (need the key!). I was wondering what that corner light was.
I saw the MPV/miata commercial yesterday. Guess Mazda doesn't think we get the point. "Zoom, Zoom, Zoom" played throughout the Mazda section of the show, btw.
We'll probably end up getting a mini-van of some sort within a year or so. Not sure we could wait for the Subaru SUW, or if it would appeal to us (read that as 'appeal to my wife')
I also never thought I'd say that I actually LIKE a Mazda. (thanks for the review Brian #2!)
must, resist, mini-van, must, resist....
-Brian
Guess when I have to tow, I will just do it with the OB.
Steve
Regards,
Frank
-mike
-mike
238hp turbo sounds good to me! Where do I sign? Wow, I hope so. That's not light pressure, though, that's a full-blown 2.5l, perhaps sans intercooler.
tincup nailed it. The H6 Subies won a tow car of the year award, yet SoA's US lawyers still set the limit at a rather lame 1000 pounds on an unbraked (just about all) trailer.
-juice