Subaru Crew - Future Models II

FrankMc · January 2001

I know it sounds like a stretch for here, but try this out. There was a media analyst on the program and was talking about how broadcasting companies would have lower revenues due to the fact that the largest advertiser GM would have much lower ad's playing.
I know GM's market share is continuing to slip, I remember a couple of years ago that one of their execs was promising that the market share would go back to 30%+ (It was 29.6% at the time), due to their many new products. (Pontiac Aztec for one). It is now 27-28% (about a 10% decline). Does this mean that they spend $x per car on advertising and they just have lowered their projected sales... or that they have no new models to hype for awhile. It can't help their market share numbers either way.
I remember in Economics class talking about why the government should break-up GM since they had over 50% market share!
Hopefully Subaru will get more than it's fair share of it (more sales more variety!)

Frank

vanbojp · January 2001

...but just wondering if Sube is planning on a H-6 Sedan anytime soon. I just bought my wife an Outback Wagon, and I love driving it so much, I started looking at the Sedan for myself. Unfortunately, it's only offered with the 4-banger. Any insight? I can't be the first person to ask about this...

subaru_team · January 2001

We have a very strong initiative at Subaru to improve our customer/dealer relations. I'd really be interested in learning who your dealer is. Can you please call us? Ask the Rep. to start a case/file for you and let me know when they have the information.

I'm sorry about your experience. I'm sure we can make it better, so I hope you'll give us a chance.

Thanks.

Patti

FrankMc · January 2001

Subaru is pretty tight lipped about it's future plans in that way. (It might be waiting to see how sales are). We have been speculating about it, but I have seen no official anything about when/if the Legacy GT will get the 6 cyl engine. (I think it will need it as an option at least to remain competative).

vanbojp · January 2001

I agree wholeheartedly... look at the current crop of sport sedan's and coupe's out there. They all have 6 cyl. engines now. Subaru has to take advantage of their AWD niche, and start competing with Accords and Camrys... living in Wisconsin, I don't want just a front-wheel drive car in the winter.

FrankMc · January 2001

I just saw that Toyota is going to come out with a Toyota Matrix AWD wagon, (based upon a Corolla platform) and a Pontiac version to boot. The market is starting to get crowded and this should mean that Subaru will not be able to rely on being the only AWD choice available. Although I think that the 4 cyl is fine (for me), I know that there is a lot of interest in the 6 cyl, and I am sure that Subaru didn't develop the engine with the intent for it to be sold in small quantities. I believe that it will be on sedans and who knows what else. I have always said that more competition makes for better choices and keeps everyone on their toes. I was at the PA auto show this weekend and it is a small one (in Harrisburg PA) (so there are no exotics Ferrari's etc). But even so there are as my wife said "So many choices!"

Frank

rsholland · January 2001

if I was a betting man (which I'm not), I would wager you will see the H-6 in the 2002 Outback sedan and Legacy GT Limited sedan.

Heard that last week at the Baltimore Auto Show from a Subaru rep.

And... speaking of BaltimoreWAY TO GO RAVENS! Who let the dogs out? Who! Who!

Bob

drew_ · January 2001

It's out! But not for sale till MY2003:

Toyota Matrix:

Pontiac Vibe GT (IMHO, the way the Pontiac Aztek should've looked):

Read Edmunds.com's coverage of the Matrix and Vibe here and here.

Is it just me or does the Pontiac version look a tad like the new Chrysler minivans (maybe because of the lights?)? I hate to admit this also, but I think the GM version looks like nicer than the boy racerish Matrix!

Drew
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FrankMc · January 2001

they look interesting... More choices!!!

Frank

francophile · January 2001

I thought it was a Ford! The general shape from the front looks like a hopped-up Focus wagon, and the front end has an F-150-like grille. Too bad it's a Toyota, they are so often boring vehicles to drive.

Matrix and Vibe; same car with different badges. Less choice, not more. I wonder if GM is going to do to Toyota what it did to Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac.

Still, they both make the Forester look, well, frumpy. How do they compare to the Forester size-wise? My guess is that they're aimed more at competing with the PT Cruiser, which means a smaller vehicle than a Forester.

-wdb

FrankMc · January 2001

and everyone agreed with you that the Pontiac version had a better look than the Toyota version.

Frank

FrankMc · January 2001

in California that is owned by a joint venture that they both own. Other than that there is no joint ownership between GM and Toyota. GM and Toyota have shared the output from that plant for years (Toyota Corolla, Geo Prism). This is clearly an counter to the PT Cruiser, and I also saw a resemblence to the Ford Focus wagon version.

Frank

paisan · January 2001

that the camary comes off the same line as the malibu in marysville ohio IIRC.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2001

I think Toyota made a prettier front end, while Pontiac has a better rear. It looks small, though, maybe about Outback Sport sized or slightly bigger.

I think the Accord is built in Ohio, isn't the Camry made in Indiana?

Tom: interesting that you found the H6 peppier than the Highlander. Bob felt the opposite way, maybe yours had a few more miles and wasn't so green?

Subaru is small, so it's sad to see dealers that are not responsive. Let's get on them (with Patti's help) to improve that.

Way to go Ravens. Hutch, Bob, and Lucien ought to be happy right now.

-juice

aakerson · January 2001

Picked up our white VDC Saturday -- my wife's car, and she loves it. With the leather, unbelievable sound system, quiet 6 she feels like she has a luxury car. She and we have been driving OBs since 96 and as good as they were, this one's even better.

Happened to look at the Highlander Saturday just for fun -- I have more headroom in the OB (I'm 6'4") Upclose the Highlander starts taking on the "egg" look of the Previa. Back seats and the room behind them look great. Didn't drive it.

We ordered our VDC barely four weeks ago -- the dealer, Webster Groves Subaru in St. Louis, said it came unexpectedly quick probably because the car had already been built when our order by coincidence came in. Showed our dealer Tom's comment on waiting 4 1/2 months unsuccessfully for one. He was surprised. By the way, he has three VDCs on his lot -- and he says he does NOT sell over list. St. Louis is not as strong a Subaru market as Portland, Denver, or Vermont, to say the least. E-mail: Carl@WGSIS if anyone's interested. He's an unusual dealer -- small, started out 30 years ago or so selling everything from Citroens to Peugeots to Fiats.

brekke · January 2001

I converted the values from the Subaru Australia website for this table. Another Edmund's poster provided the Vibe info.

Also, using Australia's figs again, the Aussie WRX hatch weighs about 165 lbs more than the heavier version of the Aussie new impreza hatch.

	New Impreza	Vibe
Length	173.6 in	171.8 in
Width	63.2 in	70 in.
Wheelbase	99.4 in	102.4 in
Height	58.5 in	63 in

ateixeira · January 2001

So the Vibe is tall and wide, but not that long. It actually compares more closely in size to the Forester.

-juice

brekke · January 2001

Vibe Forester
length 171.8 in 178.5 in
width 69.9 in 68.4 in
wheelbase 102.4 in 99.4 in
height 63 in 62.8 in

Could I be taking this geek thing too far??? (Yes, if I actually
coded another table.)

ateixeira · January 2001

I don't think the Forester is that long. I though it was around 175".

So dimensions are closer than I thought.

BTW, anyone else read the C3 review? I found it more than a bit funny that the upgrade to AWD and twin-piston brake calipers costs a whopping $39 grand in that pickup, when those are standard on even stripped Legacys and Foresters.

-juice

robnis · January 2001

I was at the Harrisburg, PA Auto Show this past weekend and also drove the new VDC. Faulkner confirmed there will be a 6 cylinder Outback sedan this Fall.

kostamojen2 · January 2001

The Vibe is a baby Astek to me... Cant get over that tankish pontiac front end. On the other hand, the Matrix looks like a baby M-class, which is a great thing!

Yes, the forester is that long, and that length goes into the cargo room

drew_ · January 2001

Yup, Toyota and GM both worked together on the vehicles. Looks like Toyota did more work and is supplying more components though. That's a good thing. The Vibe may actually last! :-) I wonder how the GM mechanics feel working on the Celica engine. Heh heh...

juice, the Toyota Tundra and Sequoia are built in Indiana. Not the Camry (built in Kentucky, I believe). Some Camrys are still imported from Toyota city, Japan.

BTW, the M-class crew has joined the Subie crew in the Owner's club area. :-)

Alan, the VDC is a near or entry luxury vehicle. You can tell that to your wife :-) Glad that you're enjoying your new Subie!

Drew
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subaru_team · January 2001

add me to the Raven's wheeee ha group. I'm not eating crow/raven today!

Anyway - I don't think it will be long to see the H-6 in other models. While we are not hearing anything officially, it only makes sense for 2K2.

Patti

ateixeira · January 2001

H6 sedan sounds nice and makes sense, but gimme a manual!

The name "Matrix" cracks me up. Remember the movie? Guess we finally know exactly what the Matrix is! ;-)

Drew: I noticed you guys were there. It was only a matter of time.

-juice

kens · January 2001

Patti,

Do you think the H6 makes sense in the Legacy GT? Just curious about your personal opinion -- I know SOA is hush hush on this.

Ken

ateixeira · January 2001

...and which engine is more likely to end up in the Forester, the turbo or the H6?

Just your (insider's) opinion.

-juice

rsholland · January 2001

Sure. I think the H-6 fits perfectly into the Legacy GT family. I heard (unofficially) that only the GT Limited (not the base GT), and Outback sedan would get the H-6.

I wonder if they will also get the VDC? My guess is that one, but not the other would get VDC. The WRX automatic gets VDT (and not VDC), so, I wonder if the GT might get VDT, and the Outback sedan would get the VDC?

I also wonder if the Legacy GT would get the Sport-Shift feature. Japanese-spec WRXs have this feature, but not USA-spec WRXs. Sounds like victim of cost-cutting to me.

Bob

bluesubie · January 2001

What was the consensus on which engine that would most likely be in the ST-X? H-6 or S/C H4?
Cost cutting on the sport-shift? Can't you get one on a Hyundai Santa Fe?

Maybe if we constantly bug SoA, we'll get one.

Dennis

kens · January 2001

It's kind of strange to thing that the OB sedan would get the H6 and not the OB wagon. I would imagine a wagon would need more power over a sedan because of added body weight as well as the propensity to carry more cargo.

Here's my in-the-dark stab at the 2002 changes:

- The WRX will be the only turbo to be offered in 2002. The engine is new to the US market so it makes sense to play it safe for a model year.
- The H6 will find it's way into the GT Limited and maybe the OB Limited as an optional engine.
- Any vehicle with the H6 gets VTD standard (currently all 4EAT). VDC will still be "reserved" only for the flagship VDC wagon.
- No 5-speed yet for the H6. Hasn't happened on the JDM yet.
- 4EAT w/sport shift possible option for VDC/LL Bean. Most other vehicles in it's price range offer a similar feature and many of SOJs high-end vehicles have it.
- Minor changes for Forester -- a couple new features or two.

Anyone else?

Ken

rsholland · January 2001

I would hope that they combine some Outback models. There are just too many flavors of this vehicle being offered.

I would like to see the LL Bean and VDC Outbacks become one model.

I would like to see the H-4 Outback Limited dropped.

I would like to see the "All-Weather-Package" become standard with the base Outback, and offer the dual-moonroof as an option, as well as leather (so one could create a "Limited" level equivalent, if so desired). I would also love to see the H-6 as an option on this model.

Frankly, I don't think any of what I just mentioned will happen. Please Subaru, surprise me.

Bob

miksmi · January 2001

Bob rsholland Jan 27, 2001 7:11am C'mon now, you know I thrive on useless links. Thought you knew me better than than by now

Ken kens Jan 27, 2001 12:11pm Thanks for the menu translation. Very helpful.

Ok, finally came across a Japanese-English web translator, elingo. Only translates text, not text in images (like some of the tables on the SoJ site.

Alan, congrats on your wife's VDC.

Yeah WDB, francophile Jan 29, 2001 5:59am Toyota Matrix looks like a Focus re-engineered to remove rear seat headroom (a la Taurus) and load capacity. Maybe the production model will be more functional LOL. What is it with these sloped derrières on wagons? The Legacy/Outback are slightly guilty of this too. Practicality blocks my vision of the nice shape when I'm loading a rectangular prism (e.g., a TV, appliance in a box). It's amazing the Volvo V70 and Ford Focus are the only squared-off wagons (MB E320 is sloped, Drew

on the market (someone please correct me -- I hope I'm wrong).

..Mike

drew_ · January 2001

The Matrix and Vibe are the production models, LOL :-) The E-class wagon is pretty squarish at the back...I just looked at one this morning while dropping the ML off for service. The C320 wagon's hatch, OTOH, is really sloped! Thsi is presumably for aerodynamics/high speed stability, as well as the fact that it's cleaner the slopped design. I do know that one major consideration for them was that the hatch would not require a lot more room behind the vehicle to swing open. This slopped design, of course, at the expense of some cargo room.

Drew
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paisan · January 2001

That is one reason I love the Trooper AKA Box. I can put boxes in w/o a problem.

-mike

miksmi · January 2001

> [sloped] hatch would not require a lot more room behind the vehicle to swing open.

Good point, I'll acquiesce on that one. But just that one

Oh rats, I left out the VW Passat; ok that's 4 -- Focus, Passat, V70, E320.

C'mon, what do the rest of ye think? Am I just a square?

..Mike

[edit] paisan, that's definitely an advantage of an SUV.

rsholland · January 2001

backs are good. I've always liked Volvo wagons (except for the V40) for just that reason.

Bob

francophile · January 2001

doesn't have to mean ugly (Volvo) (sorry Bob). Take a look at the short-lived-in-the-US Peugeot 405 series wagon. I had one, and put an entire refrigerator in it (sans box, I was disposing of it). That thing was just one big empty space when the seats were folded down. ALL of the rear suspension was under the floor - no humps for shocks or wheels. Pretty slick engineering.

Cheers,
-wdb

rsholland · January 2001

Old Volvos = ugly
New V70s = georgous (IMHO)
Ultra-square back = smart!

Bob

rsholland · January 2001

Thanks for the translation link. Any translator is better than none.

Bob

miksmi · January 2001

vanbojp · January 2001

...but, what is the WRX?

paisan · January 2001

WRX is the new impreza sports sedan/wagon. It replaces the 2.5RS as the sporty car in the impreza lineup. The standard Impreza will get the 2.5l engine. The WRX has a 2.0l Turbo engine. That is it in a nutshell.

-mike

miksmi · January 2001

Jim, welcome! These links might help:

Subaru of America (SoA)
SoA WRX
Glenn Wallace's New-Impreza.com - MY01 Impreza & WRX
Gordon Diamant's Sube-Directory. Gordon is the man.

..Mike

ateixeira · January 2001

I'm with Bob and paisan on the square back. Function over form, even if it's ugly.

Small as the Forester looks, I've carried an in-box clothes washer, hatch closed. I've also hauled an entire organ, in the box, with the hatch closed.

OK, I had to move my seat forward two clicks, but it made it!

Future models? I hope 2002 has more changes than Ken mentioned, but he's probably right on.

-juice

amishra · January 2001

specs for 2002 Canadian impreza's, including the non-WRX versions!

http://www.subaru.ca/english/showroom/impreza_2002/

subaru_team · January 2001

In my opinion, I don't see how we could not include the 6 in future (near?????) GT's. I think that the GT is a perfect accent to the "performance" line of vehicles. Mathmatically, I think (I love to drive the GT + I love it in a 5-spd.+ I'd really love the 6 + what a nag/nudge I've been accused of being = I think it will happen!!)

Patti

ateixeira · January 2001

so you think H6 as opposed to turbos.

Probably makes sense for the US market. Also, the Legacy is built in Indiana, and so is the H6. The turbo 4 and WRX are made in Japan.

-juice

bluesubie · January 2001

Or how about the H6 in the Ltd. and a twin turbo in a GT-B ? Ok, I'll wake up.

Dennis

kens · January 2001

How much more does the H6 weigh compared to the 2.0 Turbo? It might not be such a bad solution if the weight isn't too different.

Ken

ateixeira · January 2001

Isn't it about 100-150 pounds or so, IIRC?

-juice

locke2c · January 2001

FHI says the EZ30 is 40kg heavier, which is 88lb.

A complete EJ25 with no fluids is pretty darned light... I'd wager less than 200lb.

-Colin

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