Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100 · July 2023

@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.

venture · July 2023

I got ice cream at a baseball game yesterday. It came to $6. I gave the young girl a ten and a one. She got that far away look in her eye.

I should know better by now, I guess.

venture · July 2023

I think I saw this here before. Anyway...this is very clever, if true.

28firefighter · July 2023

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.

I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.

roadburner · July 2023

When we bought our current home in 1992 I borrowed enough extra to buy an E24 M6.
Three decades later my only regret is that I sold it.

pensfan83 · July 2023

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.

So much this.

I would also add that a better ROI could be realized by parking that money in the stock market or other investment vehicle(s) of choice, especially if the rate one is being charged is nominal.

kyfdx · July 2023

Don't forget the part about how no one wants to work, any more.

Michaell · July 2023

kyfdx said:
Don't forget the part about how no one wants to work, any more.

When we opened the cooking studio, we had just one employee, who worked every event - classes, camps, parties.

Now, we have 7 or 8 kids who work a few hours here or there. Patching the schedule together is a big pain for my wife.

FYI, we start our employees out at a rate above minimum wage - $14/hr.

oldfarmer50 · July 2023

pensfan83 said:

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.
So much this.

I would also add that a better ROI could be realized by parking that money in the stock market or other investment vehicle(s) of choice, especially if the rate one is being charged is nominal.

That’s why I took out loans when I had the ability to pay cash. On a 0% loan it’s a no brainer if you have the discipline not to spend the cash. Even on my 1.89% loan I was making 5%+ on the money I didn’t spend. I did this knowing that if everything fell apart I still had the cash to pay off the loan.

While not specifically trashing the youngsters it does seem that many people don’t have that financial discipline and end up burning the candle at both ends. Incurring debt for college or a home mortgage or even a business can be appropriate but blowing it on a depreciating asset like a car probably isn’t in most cases.

Michaell · July 2023

oldfarmer50 said:

pensfan83 said:

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.
So much this.

I would also add that a better ROI could be realized by parking that money in the stock market or other investment vehicle(s) of choice, especially if the rate one is being charged is nominal.
That’s why I took out loans when I had the ability to pay cash. On a 0% loan it’s a no brainer if you have the discipline not to spend the cash. Even on my 1.89% loan I was making 5%+ on the money I didn’t spend. I did this knowing that if everything fell apart I still had the cash to pay off the loan.

While not specifically trashing the youngsters it does seem that many people don’t have that financial discipline and end up burning the candle at both ends. Incurring debt for college or a home mortgage or even a business can be appropriate but blowing it on a depreciating asset like a car probably isn’t in most cases.

I think the issue is this - most people need a car to earn a living. Public transportation, outside of major cities, is pretty much non-existant, or at best, inconvenient. And, without work, nobody has the savings to buy a car with cash. As we've discussed, yesterdays $2000 hooptie is now $5000.

Only a handful of states mandate some sort of financial literacy class for HS graduates. And, that's only as good as the curriculum allows. Colorado is not one of those states, it turns out.

andres3 · July 2023

Auto insurance is going through the roof; either we deal with left lane campers immediately, or we will inevitably have more uninsured drivers irresponsibly causing damages due to going uninsured because auto insurance is becoming less affordable.

andres3 · July 2023

I read Audi fired the Audi of America CEO. Good riddens. On of the reasons I don't buy cars more often is because other than the TT models, they haven't made a vehicle I'd buy post 2016 or so, unless it's 6 digits in cost, which isn't really what most would call "affordable."

The next CEO has to do better. There's also a lot of grumbling that QA/QC isn't what it used to be.

explorerx4 · July 2023

Audi invented the Diesel Cheap System, so not much sympathy from me.

snakeweasel · July 2023

SonOfSaul said:

@kyfdx said:

The dealer fee can be whatever the dealer wants it to be, depending on your state. Acquisition fee varies by financial institution

Hey everyone,

I went to the dealership today. They have a $7,500 Privilege To Buy Fee. So the lease was $605 per month 🤦‍♂️. The salesperson was nice and mentioned that the $7,500 is where some negotiation can happen. I left.

OK I am off for a little while and I come back to this? Yikes.

The funny thing is that they break Federal law and charge you $295. for it.

snakeweasel · July 2023

jmonroe1 said:

kyfdx said:
Offer whatever you think is fair for the vehicle. You don't have to run away, just because you see something stupid.
————————————————
The reason I would have left quickly is because when I hear, “$7,500 is where some negotiation can happen”, I don’t want to stick around to hear anymore game playing which I’m sure they will try. Kinda like… “a man has to know his limitations”.

jmonroe

I have to agree with you on that. $7,500 is 30% of the sticker price of the car. At that point there pretty much no use negotiating on the price as it is evident that their floor is higher than a reasonable ceiling for a buyer.

snakeweasel · July 2023

kyfdx said:
@imidazol97 That's true..

We hit 66666 on the wife's 2017 X3, last Friday, on a trip to Fort Wayne. I knew it was coming, but then forgot about it, so you'll have to take my word for it.

I hit 123456 on the Sonata just the other day. Picture will be posted soon.

snakeweasel · July 2023

roadburner said:

imidazol97 said:
I have a Jeep question. I notice that some people take the doors off their Jeep, usually in spring and then in summer. If an accident occurs and the occupant(s) are injured more seriously because of the lack of the doors in place, is the other car, if at fault, responsible for the additional injuries above what would have occured to the occupant were the door in place during impact? I assume the NHSTA testing takes place with the doors intact...

Any legal minds here with that answer?

I thought about this again when I saw several Jeeps with doors missing driving around the Park when we visited the Great Smokies a few weeks back. Some were local from rental places probably typical of scenic tourist areas, but some Jeeps were plated in other states apparently by the driver/owner in the Jeep.
There's an old legal adage "You take your plaintiff as you find him."- and I believe that would be the case here. What those Jeepers are doing is not illegal and I don't think comparative negligence would apply either.

I'm not to sure about that. If you take the doors off and someone suffers an injury that would have been prevented or mitigated if the doors were in place you could find yourself in court.

snakeweasel · July 2023

driver100 said:
"driver100">It seems to me a lot of motorcycle accidents happen when cars make a left turn in front of them, it is hard to drive a motorcycle defensively in those cases no matter how good of a helmet you got!

@ roadburner Did you read my post? You have to assume the worst in that situation- that's why you roll off the throttle and cover the brake whenever there's an oncoming car and an intersection on your right.

Yup, well I skimmed it, I am pretty busy these days. But I bet all the motorcyclists who got hit by drivers making a left turn thought they would stop in time. And how many slow down and get hit from behind, which happens a lot.

Not saying it is the motorcyclists fault. There are a lot of car drivers who don't see or judge motorcyclists. They make a left turn and don't seem to even see a motorcycle coming, often when it is too late for the motorcyclist to stop or take evasive action. One lady passenger was killed recently when the motorcycle driver slowed down to make a right turn....he may have eased into the turn better, but still, hard to drive defensively when you get slammed from the rear....and a lot of car drivers are on their phones or are texting.

Defensive driving is an excellent way to avoid an accident, but it isn't completely "foolproof"......like getting hit from the rear when you stop for an amber light, and you get slammed by a giant garbage truck.

OK here is my story from two days ago. I am on US 52 south of Dixon, IL where the road is straight (one lane in each direction) and flat and the weather was perfectly clear. I am on the bike doing 60 +/-. At one point I approached a line of cars going the other way and some %$#@ decided to make a pass. So I suddenly found myself playing a game of chicken that I wasn't going to win and closing in on each other quickly. So I quickly let off the throttle, downshifted, applied brakes, moved over to the right and started flashing my brights. When we passed each other I was on the white line and he (she?) was still partially in my lane.

I then found the nearest store and bought some underwear.

jmonroe1 · July 2023

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:
"driver100">It seems to me a lot of motorcycle accidents happen when cars make a left turn in front of them, it is hard to drive a motorcycle defensively in those cases no matter how good of a helmet you got!

@ roadburner Did you read my post? You have to assume the worst in that situation- that's why you roll off the throttle and cover the brake whenever there's an oncoming car and an intersection on your right.
Yup, well I skimmed it, I am pretty busy these days. But I bet all the motorcyclists who got hit by drivers making a left turn thought they would stop in time. And how many slow down and get hit from behind, which happens a lot.

Not saying it is the motorcyclists fault. There are a lot of car drivers who don't see or judge motorcyclists. They make a left turn and don't seem to even see a motorcycle coming, often when it is too late for the motorcyclist to stop or take evasive action. One lady passenger was killed recently when the motorcycle driver slowed down to make a right turn....he may have eased into the turn better, but still, hard to drive defensively when you get slammed from the rear....and a lot of car drivers are on their phones or are texting.

Defensive driving is an excellent way to avoid an accident, but it isn't completely "foolproof"......like getting hit from the rear when you stop for an amber light, and you get slammed by a giant garbage truck.

OK here is my story from two days ago. I am on US 52 south of Dixon, IL where the road is straight (one lane in each direction) and flat and the weather was perfectly clear. I am on the bike doing 60 +/-. At one point I approached a line of cars going the other way and some %$#@ decided to make a pass. So I suddenly found myself playing a game of chicken that I wasn't going to win and closing in on each other quickly. So I quickly let off the throttle, downshifted, applied brakes, moved over to the right and started flashing my brights. When we passed each other I was on the white line and he (she?) was still partially in my lane.

I then found the nearest store and bought some underwear.
————————————————
The experienced bikers I know carry a spare pair or two in their saddle bags.

jmonroe

snakeweasel · July 2023

oldfarmer50 said:

Oh yeah, we also go to witness a police hot pursuit of runaway horses….yep, horses.

Mustangs or Pintos?

oldfarmer50 · July 2023

Michaell said:

oldfarmer50 said:

pensfan83 said:

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.
So much this.

I would also add that a better ROI could be realized by parking that money in the stock market or other investment vehicle(s) of choice, especially if the rate one is being charged is nominal.
That’s why I took out loans when I had the ability to pay cash. On a 0% loan it’s a no brainer if you have the discipline not to spend the cash. Even on my 1.89% loan I was making 5%+ on the money I didn’t spend. I did this knowing that if everything fell apart I still had the cash to pay off the loan.

While not specifically trashing the youngsters it does seem that many people don’t have that financial discipline and end up burning the candle at both ends. Incurring debt for college or a home mortgage or even a business can be appropriate but blowing it on a depreciating asset like a car probably isn’t in most cases.
I think the issue is this - most people need a car to earn a living. Public transportation, outside of major cities, is pretty much non-existant, or at best, inconvenient. And, without work, nobody has the savings to buy a car with cash. As we've discussed, yesterdays $2000 hooptie is now $5000.

Only a handful of states mandate some sort of financial literacy class for HS graduates. And, that's only as good as the curriculum allows. Colorado is not one of those states, it turns out.

So the old chicken and egg conundrum? You can’t afford a car unless you have a job but you can’t get a job without a car.

A lot of young people solve the problem by relying on family or friends for transportation but I suspect some people don’t have that network any more.

I agree 100% about the lack of financial literacy courses in school but I think it was the same in the 60s when I was in school. Personally, I tried to educate myself but even then I had to learn from my mistakes sometimes.

ab348 · July 2023

oldfarmer50 said:

Except for zero interest deals I would always pay off loans early as possible because I hate paying interest and you never know when you might get caught short for payments. I bet that’s what happens to a lot of repo cases.

Well, they don’t usually repo cars where the payments *are* being made… 🫤

stickguy · July 2023

toured a house tonight, even though it went under contract yesterday. Selling agent let if go on with the caveat that it would be for backup offers only in case the contract fell apart.

steep budget related but had some advantages. the biggest of which was a very large 3 car garage. Which was actually the best part of the house by far. overall a disappointment and showed how a good photographer can put lipstick on a pig! or make a bit tired place look good.

Not worried about being under contract. we would not have made an offer anyway.

Still looking at a few new builds. Going to lot walk with the sales agent for one of those on Saturday. only a 2 car garage but it is very large (22' deep and 26-27' wide)

snakeweasel · July 2023

OK here it is...

oldfarmer50 · July 2023

stickguy said:
toured a house tonight, even though it went under contract yesterday. Selling agent let if go on with the caveat that it would be for backup offers only in case the contract fell apart.

steep budget related but had some advantages. the biggest of which was a very large 3 car garage. Which was actually the best part of the house by far. overall a disappointment and showed how a good photographer can put lipstick on a pig! or make a bit tired place look good.

Not worried about being under contract. we would not have made an offer anyway.

Still looking at a few new builds. Going to lot walk with the sales agent for one of those on Saturday. only a 2 car garage but it is very large (22' deep and 26-27' wide)

Have you thought about buying a house with enough land to expand the garage to as many bays as you want?

oldfarmer50 · July 2023

snakeweasel said:
OK here it is...

I remember when my 69’ Plymouth turned over 100k miles. Wanted to stop and buy myself a drink to celebrate. Of course that was a much bigger deal back then.

qbrozen · July 2023

@stickguy said:
toured a house tonight, even though it went under contract yesterday. Selling agent let if go on with the caveat that it would be for backup offers only in case the contract fell apart.

steep budget related but had some advantages. the biggest of which was a very large 3 car garage. Which was actually the best part of the house by far. overall a disappointment and showed how a good photographer can put lipstick on a pig! or make a bit tired place look good.

Not worried about being under contract. we would not have made an offer anyway.

Still looking at a few new builds. Going to lot walk with the sales agent for one of those on Saturday. only a 2 car garage but it is very large (22' deep and 26-27' wide)

I must have missed something. You JUST moved, right?! Are you trying to be the breld of houses?

snakeweasel · July 2023

@qbrozen said:

@stickguy said:
toured a house tonight, even though it went under contract yesterday. Selling agent let if go on with the caveat that it would be for backup offers only in case the contract fell apart.

steep budget related but had some advantages. the biggest of which was a very large 3 car garage. Which was actually the best part of the house by far. overall a disappointment and showed how a good photographer can put lipstick on a pig! or make a bit tired place look good.

Not worried about being under contract. we would not have made an offer anyway.

Still looking at a few new builds. Going to lot walk with the sales agent for one of those on Saturday. only a 2 car garage but it is very large (22' deep and 26-27' wide)

I must have missed something. You JUST moved, right?! Are you trying to be the breld of houses?

If thar is the case maybe we should have a chronic house buyers forum.

stickguy · July 2023

@oldfarmer50 said:
Have you thought about buying a house with enough land to expand the garage to as many bays as you want?

Yes. I told the wife if we found something that had everything we wanted but the extra garage space but enough side yard I’d consider building a spare garage.

stickguy · July 2023

@qbrozen said:

@stickguy said:
toured a house tonight, even though it went under contract yesterday. Selling agent let if go on with the caveat that it would be for backup offers only in case the contract fell apart.

steep budget related but had some advantages. the biggest of which was a very large 3 car garage. Which was actually the best part of the house by far. overall a disappointment and showed how a good photographer can put lipstick on a pig! or make a bit tired place look good.

Not worried about being under contract. we would not have made an offer anyway.

Still looking at a few new builds. Going to lot walk with the sales agent for one of those on Saturday. only a 2 car garage but it is very large (22' deep and 26-27' wide)

I must have missed something. You JUST moved, right?! Are you trying to be the breld of houses?

We moved to relocate. The market was crazy at the time and long distance shopping hard so we did make a few compromises. Overall the house is very nice just not perfect. We basically bought a house to get us up here instead of moving into a temporary rental.

stickguy · July 2023

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/23-Legends-Way_Ballston-Lake_NY_12019_M47164-40733

Sandman6472 · July 2023

Only financed once back in 1981 & paid off after we got home from our honeymoon. Wife told me flat out, "we don't finance" and besides the condo & eventual house, we've always paid cash or we didn't buy. For my next vehicle though, will finance a part of it so hope they have 0% financing. Don't want to sell any assets to pay for a new vehicle since I can use the dividends/work income to pay the loan down. A smarter way to do things at this stage of life.

Sandman6472 · July 2023

But don't see us purchasing anything automotive quite yet since they'll both be nine years old come December. Most likely scenario will be for us to wait till at least the tenth or eleventh year unless some major issue crops up as she has no tolerance for something undependable. If they are still running like they should, there's no time limit I guess. Like many women, once it leaves her stranded, it'll be gone in short order. I have a tendency to fix a bunch of small issues and can always manage without a vehicle for awhile. Don't drive much anymore anyways so could manage with just one vehicle in the household...for awhile.

houdini1 · July 2023

sda said:
Certainly not the same car but the

design language between the two is similar. Note the shape of the roof line, wheel arches and wheel design.

Honey, I shrunk the Passat.

Michaell · July 2023

Sandman6472 said:
Only financed once back in 1981 & paid off after we got home from our honeymoon. Wife told me flat out, "we don't finance" and besides the condo & eventual house, we've always paid cash or we didn't buy. For my next vehicle though, will finance a part of it so hope they have 0% financing. Don't want to sell any assets to pay for a new vehicle since I can use the dividends/work income to pay the loan down. A smarter way to do things at this stage of life.

Don't hold your breath on the return of 0% financing. I suspect interest rates are going to stay high for the forseeable future - at least, until inflation is back to a point where the fed is comfortable with it.

houdini1 · July 2023

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.

Agree 100%. Simply no way a young person can buy a car today without taking out a long loan. Same way with me 50 years ago, but a shorter loan.

tjc78 · July 2023

0% could return if car sales really slump. No different than a large rebate, but would be very appealing these days as an incentive. Doubtful it would be for 72 months as we’ve seen, but I could see 36 or 48.

explorerx4 · July 2023

Stickguy didn't like the snowblower, so he wants to move.
That house has a nice big garage, the full size pickup fits in there with room to spare.

ab348 · July 2023

explorerx4 said:
Stickguy didn't like the snowblower, so he wants to move.

I blame myself. I think I convinced him to buy that snowblower. 😄

jmonroe1 · July 2023

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:
OK here it is...

I remember when my 69’ Plymouth turned over 100k miles. Wanted to stop and buy myself a drink to celebrate. Of course that was a much bigger deal back then.

————————————————
You deserved a full bottle for keeping a Plymouth on the road that long.

jmonroe

stickguy · July 2023

ab348 said:

explorerx4 said:
Stickguy didn't like the snowblower, so he wants to move.
I blame myself. I think I convinced him to buy that snowblower. 😄

Someone here badgered me into it. Though late in the season I actually used it a few times and it was handy. I believe it was after I Carvana’d my truck so I could fit in in the garage. Not happening now which will be a problem next winter.

That garage on the house listing is quite large but that’s a Colorado so a midsized truck. But an F150 would fit.

explorerx4 · July 2023

@stickguy,
It's a Silverado in the garage pic.

stickguy · July 2023

When did the Silverado get weird shaped rear door windows? Profile looked like a Colorado.

My bad. But yesterday there was a GMC suv (equinox size) in that spot that really fit fine!

Sandman6472 · July 2023

Beautiful home but isn't it a bit large for only two of you? Looks to be almost 2400 square feet I'd bet which is a really nice size...for a family of four or five I'd guess. But, since y'all think you're current home just isn't large enough, makes sense especially if it could be done with no mortgage. Personally, once retired, best to no longer have a mortgage as it's usually a big chunk of the monthly budget...we just chose to pay it off as early as we could so we could put those extra funds away for retirement. That "living below ones means" philosophy that I was brought up with tends to stick with ya after so many years.
Not really familiar with that part of New York as we lived about 32 miles north those years we did live there. Got as far north as Wappingers Falls as I recall as a kid so not really familiar with your location. But it's in snow country so guessing y'all get your fair share of the white stuff.

stickguy · July 2023

That one happens to be 2,700SF. But still 3 beds + an office which is what we want. Bigger than our actual target of about 2,200, it just happened to be very cheap for the neighborhood.

We really just want our house but with some more space in a few areas. And not looking to spend a ton more money, but it will likely cost some. Would still be paid off well before retirement. No mortgage is non negotiable item for pulling the plug on work.

driver100 · July 2023

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.

I'll stand by what I said. Of course you have to borrow money to buy a house or to buy a car, you may even have to buy a TV set on payments if you don't have the money saved. But, there is too much buying on credit, and people getting into trouble. They buy a car or a house based on the monthly payments, not realizing that interest rates can change or the item has other costs associated with it.
A niece just got married, it was nice that they saved to buy a house, they wanted and bought all new furniture and appliances and they are stretched to the limit financially.
Too many people go to university and rack up a big bill, and they take courses that don't lead to a job that will pay back the money spent. I am surprised so many agree with you that debt is fine. Debt is necessary, but my rule would be to try and keep debt as low as possible.

When we started our business we had a line of credit. We were making good money after a few years, but we plowed it back into the business, spent carefully, and always paid suppliers on delivery, not in 30 days, not 60 days, basically C.O.D. Suppliers loved us, when they had good product they came to us first....where else would they get C.O.D.? Our lawyer told us we must be crazy to pay suppliers immediately...no one does that!

When interest rates went sky high our competitors had to cover interest payments by raising prices, we didn't owe money so we didn't have to raise our prices.

Debt is a necessity if used wisely. It can become a noose if not used carefully.

Michaell · July 2023

@driver100 - I'll agree with you. When we opened the studio, my wife and daughter went to training with two other new owners. One in NC, the other in Michigan. My wife found out that both of them went into debt to get the doors open. 4 years later, both studios have closed.

The only debt we have on the business is about $15K in personal CC debt that we are paying off. Everything else is like you - pretty much COD. They have, and use, a business credit card to accumulate points, but it gets paid off after 2 or 3 months of use.

pensfan83 · July 2023

driver100 said:

28firefighter said:

driver100 said:
@oldfarmer50 I'm like you, I like to pay off loans asap. I hate to pay interest, and I think being disciplined about spending is good for me.
I don't think many young people think that way.
I think this is a common misconception that passes unfair judgment on a generation that came up at a time where salaries have not kept up with inflation, cost of living is at an all time high, and educational costs are dramatically higher than ever leading to astonishing amounts of student debt.

It's wonderful that many of us here are financially capable of making choices to not use or carry loans. However, having debt does not make someone financially irresponsible alone and I'd strongly recommend not passing judgment in broad strokes.
I'll stand by what I said. Of course you have to borrow money to buy a house or to buy a car, you may even have to buy a TV set on payments if you don't have the money saved. But, there is too much buying on credit, and people getting into trouble. They buy a car or a house based on the monthly payments, not realizing that interest rates can change or the item has other costs associated with it.
A niece just got married, it was nice that they saved to buy a house, they wanted and bought all new furniture and appliances and they are stretched to the limit financially.
Too many people go to university and rack up a big bill, and they take courses that don't lead to a job that will pay back the money spent. I am surprised so many agree with you that debt is fine. Debt is necessary, but my rule would be to try and keep debt as low as possible.

When we started our business we had a line of credit. We were making good money after a few years, but we plowed it back into the business, spent carefully, and always paid suppliers on delivery, not in 30 days, not 60 days, basically C.O.D. Suppliers loved us, when they had good product they came to us first....where else would they get C.O.D.? Our lawyer told us we must be crazy to pay suppliers immediately...no one does that!

When interest rates went sky high our competitors had to cover interest payments by raising prices, we didn't owe money so we didn't have to raise our prices.

Debt is a necessity if used wisely. It can become a noose if not used carefully.

The point he was making is that for some individuals debt is an unwanted, yet unfortunate requisite in today's society because sometimes there are circumstances not within their control that mandate carrying a debt load. Those individuals should not be looked down upon or otherwise judged because they choose to carry said debt and others choose to live debt free.

driver100 · July 2023

One more thought about prices....these are the prices from about 50 years ago....1972.
Average annual household income: $12,900 (minimum wage: $1.60 per hour)
new home: $32,500
new car: $3,200
gallon of milk: $1.31
gallon of (reg.) gas: $0.40
first-class stamp: $0.08
A new car in 2023 is $48000 but that increased by 30% over the previous year. A lot of things are about 10X as much as they were.
Household income is about $90,000 today.
Average individual income was about $6500 in 1972, and $68000 in 2022 (about 10X)

I think it is harder for young people to get established, to buy a home, to buy a car etc., but I think the principles of staying out of debt as much as possible, don't get in over your head, have a Plan B still apply.

driver100 · July 2023

Michaell said:
@driver100 - I'll agree with you. When we opened the studio, my wife and daughter went to training with two other new owners. One in NC, the other in Michigan. My wife found out that both of them went into debt to get the doors open. 4 years later, both studios have closed.

The only debt we have on the business is about $15K in personal CC debt that we are paying off. Everything else is like you - pretty much COD. They have, and use, a business credit card to accumulate points, but it gets paid off after 2 or 3 months of use.

Many businesses close because of debt. Almost impossible to run a business without some debt, but the less debt the better. Not only because of the reasons mentioned, but because it shows discipline and that carries over into the operation of how the business is run. The principals may be able to get by with the office furniture they have, and not go out and buy new stuff every year........discipline! Try to cut back and be more careful if supply costs are rising. Sometimes that is the difference whether the business can survive or not...and your situation and the other owners is a perfect example.

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