Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · January 2003

Yes, but there are rumors, and then there are rumors; meaning some you can pretty much take to the bank, and others you can discard without any worry.

Just because it has the word "rumor' attached to it, I don't automatically reject it.

Bob

jimmyp1 · January 2003

Just save a little $ for you-know-what, because I'll be buying a Legacy something-or-other.

Jim

paisan · January 2003

I'm workin on it Jimmy

Hopefully they'll hold off on the legacy power just long enough for your car to depreciate for me

But that will be my daily driver/auto-x car when the time comes

-mike

locke2c · January 2003

Ken,

I suspect the 2.5L turbo's output is only limited by what the drivetrain behind it can endure.

300HP isn't a great deal from it. Perhaps it's tuned for good low-end response.

Although I can't figure the 9,000 rpm tachometer in the 2.5L STi. Why? I doubt it revs higher than 7500.

-Colin

jimmyp1 · January 2003

there's probably room for a little more reliable horsepower, but at 125 hp/liter, it's more high-strung than the WRX's 2.0 liter.

Jim

locke2c · January 2003

right, but the previous STi made 280 horsepower from 2.0L... 1995-present.

It should have decent low-end torque. Lower RPM, lower HP versions should have *very* respectable torque. should make the 3.0 H6 moot, IMHO.

-Colin

jimmyp1 · January 2003

and good point about the H6 (212hp). It's kind of lost now, isn't it?

Jim

subearu · January 2003

to make the H6 'hot', at least with a LPT. ;-)

-Brian

jimmyp1 · January 2003

B4 and WRX Sti boards on the other side of the pond, and they are really talking about the new engine. Is the 2.5t in the Forester confirmed in New Zealand? Because they sure are talking like it is, in which case, that's pretty much confirmation for Paisan, IMHO. I know, I know, it's not NA, but it is that engine in the Forester.

Jim

kens · January 2003

Good point. A low pressure 2.5T would make the H6 moot. More reason that Subaru turbo that engine too. ;-)

I wonder how the 2.5 block will hold up to boost. As far as I know, this engine has only appeared in NA form in Japan.

Ken

jimmyp1 · January 2003

I'll bet you these engines are so tightly engineered that they know exactly how to tune them to pass the CAFE requirements. Turboing cars is a great way to do that and offer excellent power outside the parameters of the test.

Jim

bluesubie · January 2003

Don't recall this being mentioned yet. I wonder if more Imprezas will get it.

You can see it in the brochure:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=297627&referrerid=767

-Dennis

paisan · January 2003

Any AT options on the STi?

-mike

locke2c · January 2003

BLASPHEMY!!!

rsholland · January 2003

I'm assuming you mean automatic transmission? If so, no.

Bob

locke2c · January 2003

quote: I wonder how the 2.5 block will hold up to boost. As far as I know, this engine has only appeared in NA form in Japan.

Ken I think it'll be just fine. The 2.5L @ 300HP should be lower rpm than the 2.0L @ 280HP, so it should be less strain.

-Colin

rsholland · January 2003

2004 Impreza WRX STi Press Release

Subaru Impreza WRX Gets Bold Redesign for 2004
The Original "Rally Car Tamed for the Street" Gets New Look and Functional Enhancements

DETROIT, Jan. 6, 2003  The Subaru Impreza WRX, which established the performance benchmark in the sport-compact segment when introduced two years ago, will turn even more heads for 2004 with its bold new front end redesign. With the introduction of the extreme-performance WRX STi for 2004, the standard WRX remains the high-volume performance model in the Impreza line.

The WRX and WRX STi debut the front and rear redesign of the 2004 Impreza line, which also includes the 2.5 TS Sport Wagon, the 2.5 RS Sedan and the Outback Sport wagon - a look that mixes equals parts form and function. The expressive new design is the direct result of close consultation with Subaru Tecnica International (STI) engineers and the Subaru World Rally Team to help reduce air resistance, optimize lift force balance and improve engine cooling.

Rallying to Improve the Breed
From the front, one will immediately notice the addition of larger headlights, now combined in a 4-element arrangement to create a bolder, more aggressive appearance. To maximize airflow, Subaru World Rally Team designers added sharp edge character lines beginning at the headlamps and grille area and extended them onto the redesigned hood. All 2004 Impreza models adopt revised air inlets on the front fascia, and WRX models add projector beam halogen fog lamps to the list of standard equipment. The taillights and rear bumper are also redesigned. As before, Impreza WRX is available as both a sedan and a Sport Wagon.

In addition to its bolder styling, Impreza WRX gains new sport-design front bucket seats with integrated head restraints that would not look out of place in a competition car. A redesigned instrument panel relocates the tachometer in the center and includes a new cruise control "engaged" indicator. Silver trim rings add a touch of style to the new gauges.

New seat fabric enhances the comfort and appearance of the driver-optimized cockpit, which includes a standard leather-wrapped MOMO® brand steering wheel and a new color-matched audio faceplate. Also new for 2004, Impreza WRX is available with an optional moonroof and an all-weather package consisting of dual mode heated front seats, windshield wiper de-icer and heated exterior mirrors. New Java Black Pearl and San Remo Red exterior paint complete the color palette for 2004.

New Look, Same Great Performance
The exterior may have changed, but it's what Subaru didn't change that will move enthusiasts to celebrate-the intercooled/turbocharged 2.0-liter 4-cylinder engine that powers WRX models. This horizontally opposed, double overhead-cam powerplant produces 227 horsepower at 6,000 rpm and 217 lb.-ft. of peak torque at 4,000 rpm.

Two Types of All-Wheel Drive Technology
The standard Subaru Full-Time All-Wheel Drive system powers all four wheels all the time, giving Impreza WRX optimal grip on all types of road surfaces, dry or wet. All-Wheel Drive acts as both a performance advantage and an all-weather handling aid, especially when compared to front-wheel or rear-wheel drive cars.

When equipped with the standard 5-speed manual transmission, Subaru Impreza WRX uses Continuous All-Wheel Drive. A viscous-coupling center differential built into the transmission case divides engine power 50 percent front / 50 percent rear. Wheel slippage at the front causes more power to shift to the rear, and slippage at the rear transfers power to the front, ensuring that the wheels with the best traction receive the most power. The 5-speed manual transmission features a hydraulic clutch for smooth operation and low maintenance. A flexible flywheel helps ensure smooth shift action.

When equipped with the optional 4-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission, Impreza WRX uses an advanced Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) All-Wheel Drive system. The VTD automatic transmission uses an electronically controlled, continuously variable hydraulic transfer clutch that works with a planetary gear-type center differential to control power distribution between the front and rear wheels. In steady state driving, the VTD All-Wheel Drive system splits the power 45 percent front and 55 percent rear. The slight rear-wheel bias enhances the performance-driving feel. VTD All-Wheel Drive monitors throttle input to account for weight transfer and responds to driving conditions to continually optimize power distribution on all road surfaces.

With either All-Wheel Drive system, all WRX models are equipped with a viscous limited-slip rear differential, which helps ensure that the rear wheel with the best traction receives the most power.

"High-Density" Sport Machines
Subaru designed Impreza WRX to convey the look and feel of a "high-density" performance car. Inspiration for the sedan's wider track and blister-fender design was transferred directly from the Subaru World Rally Championship rally car. The functional hood scoop supplies outside airflow to feed the intercooler.

Aside from the front view, WRX Sport Wagon's body design is uniquely different from the sedan, characterized by pronounced fender flares instead of fender blisters. A hydroformed front subframe along with tailored-blank welded B-pillars and side sills provide an exceptionally strong structure that's very stiff in bending and twisting strength. The high degree of rigidity improves handling response and ride quality while helping to reduce interior noise.

Impreza WRX excels in safety. The new-generation Impreza achieved the highest possible rating ("good") for crashworthiness when subjected to a 40-mph frontal offset crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), also earning the Institute's "best pick" designation (2002 sedan). The sport-design front seats integrate head/chest side impact airbags into the backrests, and all Impreza models are equipped with the LATCH system (Lower Anchors and Tethers for Children) for securing specially equipped child seats in the rear seat.

rsholland · January 2003

High-Performance Throughout
In addition to the 227-horsepower intercooled/turbocharged engine and Full-Time All-Wheel Drive, Impreza WRX models come equipped with a full roster of standard high-performance equipment. Sport-tuned 4-wheel independent suspension provides sharp handling response and a compliant ride. The front suspension features a Subaru-optimized strut layout, and the rear uses a dual-link strut arrangement. Impreza WRX struts now utilize multi-phase valves to improve jounce/rebound characteristics. WRX Sedan features a front track that's 20-mm wider than that of the Sport Wagon.

Standard 4-wheel disc brakes with twin-piston front calipers and 11.4-inch front brake rotors provide ample stopping power, and a standard 4-channel, 4-sensor anti-lock brake system (ABS) provides added vehicle control when braking hard. Both Impreza WRX models come equipped with standard 16x6.5-inch alloy wheels with 205/55 R16 Bridgestone Potenza RE92 tires. Subaru dealers can offer available 17 x 7-inch BBS® forged aluminum alloy wheels or 17-inch Subaru 5-spoke aluminum alloy wheels with recommended 215/45 R17 tires.

Fully Equipped
2004 Impreza WRX models come fully equipped, with standard comfort and convenience features including:

* 60/40 split fold down rear seatback (Sport Wagon)
* Air conditioning
* AM/FM 80-Watt stereo with logic-control cassette, in-dash six-disc CD changer and six speakers
* Body-color power mirrors
* Cruise control
* Fold-down rear seat center armrest with trunk pass-through (sedan)
* Front seat head/chest side impact airbags
* Front seat height adjustment
* Remote keyless entry system
* Power door locks
* Power windows with driver's auto-down
* Tilt-adjustable steering column

Rally Heritage Pays Dividends on the Road
The turbocharged Impreza WRX performance models demonstrate the value of a racing pedigree in a road car. Subaru captured the grueling World Rally Championship (WRC) three years in a row with a specially prepared turbo Impreza. Rallying encompasses all-weather, high-speed driving on pavement, hard-packed gravel, mud and snow.

For 2003, Subaru of America, Inc. will return to SCCA ProRally competition in collaboration with STI and the Subaru World Rally Team representative, Prodrive. The team won the SCCA Pro Rally manufacturer's title in 2001 campaigning a Group N car and an Open Class car.

Subaru of America, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. of Japan. Headquartered near Philadelphia, the company markets and distributes Subaru vehicles, parts and accessories through a network of nearly 600 franchised dealers across the United States.

rsholland · January 2003

a "cruise engaged" light!

Bob

paisan · January 2003

I'd have seriously considered it with an AT/manumatic....

-mike

p0926 · January 2003

Hey, what's up with the seat redesign? Virtually every review I read of the first gen WRX raved about how wonderful the seats were. Has Subaru redefined perfection?

-Frank P.

cptplt · January 2003

No, we are all getting fatter :-)

locke2c · January 2003

well there you have it, Bob. better put your deposit down NOW!

;-)

neither of my vehicles has any sort of indicator and I'm happy. seems to me that if I take my foot off the gas and it doesn't slow down, the cruise is on. if I put my foot ON the gas for more than a few seconds after I had been using cruise, I turn the system off.

too simple?

-Colin

paisan · January 2003

On all my cars if you accelerate it will keep the system engaged. For instance I can accelerate and then let off and it will return to the original speed, so long as the brake hadn't been depressed.

I, like bob, like to have the CC Engaged Lamp.

-mike

paisan · January 2003

At least for me @ my dealer

-mike

kens · January 2003

No mention of a WRX wagon in that press release though. :-(

They talk about a "Sport Wagon" but I think they're refering to the TS and Outback variants.

Ken

rsholland · January 2003

I didn't expect to rekindle the "cruise engaged" argument from 3+ years ago... Or, maybe I did...

Bob

lark6 · January 2003

paisan/Colin: Play nice. It's okay by me that the STi doesn't have AT. I would like to see the Sportshift in the WRX (I guess I should call it the "base" WRX now) and now that the Cold Weather Package and moonroof are available it can't be far behind. Now if they want to introduce a clutchless, paddle-shifted sequential manual, I'll listen...

Ed

lucien2 · January 2003

waiting to see what those towing limits are gonna be.....

Maybe SoA is just going to let go of the H6 as a bit of a costly mistake? Or maybe use it to power up the Baja in its role as trucklet.....?

wrxsoon1 · January 2003

I believe this should set the debate straight...

http://impreza.subaru.com/microsites/impreza/news/news_main.jsp

Since they mention the "Sport Wagon" in the "WRX Pres Release" I think we can be sure there is an 04 WRX wagon in addition to the TS and OBS.

I'll take one in silver with a moonroof and cold weather package. Thank you very much. Now if we can get them to at least make those cool anthracite 17" wheels they have in Europe an option I'll be pleased as punch.

-Ian

kens · January 2003

Ian,

Thanks for the link. I'm glad to know that Subaru isn't dropping the WRX wagon from the lineup. The brochure didn't explicilty mention a wagon.

Are you refering to the 17" pressure cast wheels on the B4 (not the super-expensive BBS ones, but the more "affordable" ones)? Those are available as a dealer option today.

Ken

rsholland · January 2003

I was just looking at the WRX/STi brochure over on NASIOC, and noticed something to the effect: "the sedan can be equipped with a moonroof and the AWP..." Does that mean it's only available on the sedan, and not the wagon? I sure hope that's not the case!

Also, the STi (but not the WRX) gets an ambient temp gauge. I was hoping the regular WRX would get that feature this year. Finally, the WRX wheels are the same as last year's wheels.

Bob

locke2c · January 2003

aforementioned brochure:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=297627

bandwidth-challenged users-- the STi information is only on pages 5-8. (you can probably tell that by the thumbnails, but just in case.)

notice on the spec sheet (page 8) that the STi's tires are described specifically as "summer radials"? that's because the car cannot achieve good test numbers (skidpad, slalom, braking) with all-season tires. but yet if they ship it with summer-only tires and some pinhead doesn't change them out in real wintry conditions they might *blame* Subaru for making something AWD yet dangerous in the snow.

personally I think it's the right call. the car should have 17" wheels with summer performance tires stock. and then every owner who will drive it in ice & snow should buy a set of 16" wheels with winter tires (preferably) or at least all-seasons.

-Colin

lucien2 · January 2003

I'll take mine in silver (but a wagon if you please)

http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/blitzen2003/

I guess no manual offered on B4 now, huh? Bummer. I'm not sure I can commit to an auto-manual. I really, really, like rowing my own with a clutch and all. Hard to tell without knowing Japanese. All the pics of the interior show the auto-manual, but the closeup of the pedals shows, well, 3 pedals plus the dead pedal. Hmmmmm. Ken, what's it say?

gvmelbrty · January 2003

I like Paul's line of thinking over at NASIOC. Basically, a 2.5L turbo Forester/Legacy/Baja, even in a rather de-tuned state, could easily have 250hp. This is much better than the 200-215hp we've been anticipating for the Forester turbo.

I don't know if grown men would cry or start dancing in their cubicles as they did with the STi announcement, but it sure would put a big grin on my face

- and a turbo Forester in my driveway!

-tom

-- Post #1 ---

Well, other than the STi and WRX, there are several turbo vehicles from Subaru coming soon - the new Forester Turbo, a Turbo Baja, and the new Legacy Turbo.

If the STi proves to be reliable in the marketplace at 300hp/300ft/lb's of torque, then 250-270hp versions of the 2.5-litre turbo should be even more reliable in high-mileage vehicles like the Legacy, along with running on even possibly regular gas.

Look at Nissan's 3.5-litre V6 and all the uses it's being put to to get an idea of what Subaru is planning...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

-- Post #2 ---

With highly pressured engines, yes. Something that was necessary with a 2.0-litre to make power from it. But the 2.5-litre, due to it's displacement, doesn't need as much pressure to make the same power.

In fact, if the 2.5-litre was running in exactly the same spec as the 2.0 JDM STi motor, it would be making 375hp. So you can see how de-tuned the motor is to "only" be making 300hp. If it was running at even the USDM Evo 8 state of tune, you'd be talking 339hp. This means that, even in this 300hp/300ft/lb's of torque application, this is a less-stressed motor than the USDM Evo, and much less stressed than the JDM 2.0-litre STi motor.

And this is the high-power top of the line sport application. If it's then further detuned for 250hp/250ft/lb's of torque, which is still enough to move the "pedestrian" Forester or Legacy (which are both close in weight, if not lighter, than the STi) quite quickly along. Low stress, low-boost, possibly a much lower octane of gas needed.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=294351&perpage=25&pagenumber=7

lucien2 · January 2003

goodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoodygoody

rsholland · January 2003

if the turbo Forester/Baja would put out 250 HP. That would put it well ahead of the base WRX, which I can't see happening.

Now if the base WRX were to get a de-tuned 2.5, with say around 260 -270 HP, then, yes, I can see a 250 HP turbo Forester/Baja.

Bob

kens · January 2003

The 2003 Legacy Blitzen does come in a 5MT.

Interestingly, the engine output is DIFFERENT based on the tranny type:

4EAT
HP:191kW (260PS )/6000rpm
Torque: 319N-m (32.5kg-m )/5000rpm

5MT
HP:206kW (280PS )/6500rpm
Torque: 343N-m (35.0kg-m )/5000rpm

Ken

sweet_subie · January 2003

Hi Pros:

I am sure you all must have noticed this.

If you read the article in Edmunds/MSN Carpoint on WRX STI unveiling.......SOA Sr. VP publicly announced that more Perf. vehicles from Subaru are coming.

I take that as official !

bluesubie · January 2003

Same thing with the JDM EVO. They have a de-tuned manu-matic type EVO. Maybe putting out around 250 h.p., IIRC.

-Dennis

lark6 · January 2003

We've sort of been operating under the unspoken assumption that the Subaru ATs are "beefier" than the MTs based on the number of failures seen in the MT-equipped WRXes. I'm aware the WRX STi 6-speed MT is a different beast altogether but I don't know if the JDM Legacy 5MT differs from the North American 5MT in any respect. If not - and if we can find out if/how many/what kind of 5MT failures are seen in the JDM - then that points to driver abuse as a cause of 5MT failures here.

As to lowering the power output of ATs cf. MTs, 'taint fair, McGee. ;-(

Ed

rsholland · January 2003

There have been a lot of folks complaining about clutch chatter, with not too many miles on their vehicles. Has Subaru addressed this issue yet?

Bob

kens · January 2003

Bob,

I've read about people hearing from their dealers that Subaru is working on new clutch material that chatters less. Let's see...

Ken

wrxsoon1 · January 2003

Ken,
Yes, they are similar to the less expensive option wheels offered in the States but they are an anthracite (read dark gray) color rather than the usual silver color. I have a picture of them on a new body style wagon from Poland that some guy posted, but I can't figure out how to show it here. Oh well...

-Ian

bkaiser1 · January 2003

Hi Bob,

I was fortunate enough to have my dealer call me out of the blue and offer to put the redesigned clutch in my outback, which has had a HORRIBLE shuddering problem since I bought it new 2 years ago. The clutch became available around Dec 16 and was installed on the 17th in my car. They replaced the flywheel, clutch disk, something else, and the bearings. I hope this cures the problem.

The service manager at my dealer said that they would not replace my clutch sooner because the material was the same as what was in my car and it would be prone to the same chatter/shuddering.

Unfortunately, my car has been in service for the past 3 weeks and I've yet to drive it more than a few miles since. I hope to get the car back by next week.

Anyway, let's hope this puts to rest the infamous "crappy drivetrain" chapter in Subaru's history. Bring on the twin turbos!!

brian

rsholland · January 2003

Thanks for the update. Do you know if this new clutch is now being used in all new Subies?

Bob

bkaiser1 · January 2003

I'm not sure Subaru will be using the old style clutch or the new one -- but I can't imagine that they would go to the trouble of redesigning the entire clutch assembly for the 2.5l model and NOT use it on all new cars.

It seems like this is a VERY common problem (in talking to the 800 customer service line and with my service manager), but some clutches are clearly worse than others. Some people talk about a minor "chatter" that occurrs when starting out; mine was sometimes so violent that it sounded as if the whole dash was coming apart with the help of a jack hammer. I'm just glad there's a new clutch in mine...hope it proves to be better than the last one!

B

rsholland · January 2003

I just would like to know, as would any new customer, that whatever I buy, would have the new-and-improved clutch.

Bob

kens · January 2003

Brian: Please keep us updated on how the new clutch works out. I'm sure many people would be curious.

Bob: I would be surprised if Subaru didn't phase the new material into all their clutches.

Ken

rsholland · January 2003

Me too. But is the new material being used on all new models now? Or, will it come on '04 models?

Bob

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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