Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    It will be interesting to watch FHI "uncork" this engine for the JDM. :-)

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on the Forester turbo, is around $27K. I hope it will be less, however.

    If the Legacy is introduced this summer, it will be for Japanese consumption. My guess is it will be shown at next year's Detroit show (a year from right now) as a MY05 model, and will be on sale here, a year from next spring or summer.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    MSRP may be even higher, but street prices ought to be around $25 grand.

    Today you can get a Premium model with leather and automatic for $24 grand. So gimme a turbo minus those two things for close to the same price.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the MSRP will be several $K over the WRX's MSRP. Just a gut feeling...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It'll depend on how they equip it, and the power level.

    I'm hoping for 200hp or a little more, at the prices above, with the same equipment from the Premium model (but no leather and no automatic).

    If it only comes with leather and auto, it'll be $29,995, watch.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I bet it gets ~ 215-220 HP.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think you're right - I think it'll exceed what we are currently expecting.

    I just hope I can afford one. If they go too overboard I may end up waiting for the 2005 SUW.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    puts out 177 HP. If you increase 2.0 to 2.5, that's a 25% increase. So, if you multiply 177 by 1.25, you get 221.25.

    Since larger cylinders aren't quite as efficient as smaller cylinders, my guess would be in the 215-220 range, all things being equal.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Also, Subaru needs to be careful not to step on the toes of the WRX owners. Imagine their HP envy if the Forester turbo not only got the 2.5, but it made more horses!

    I wonder how Subaru will position the turbo Forester, however. Will it be a plush premium model to top the current XS or a sporty alternative? The leather and auto tranny would do better for the former.

    Ken
  • joybelljoybell Member Posts: 275
    Too bad if there are no bug eyes. I fell for those. It seems a truely Subie look and reminded me of the older Subie models like the Chaser I had when I was single. Bug eyes are sporty. Oh well, I still have the Forester brochure...keep sliding it over to my husband at the table. Caught him looking at it a few times. He asked what the insurance cost was for this "SUV"! Ha! Told him it is a wagon and cheaper to insure than the Impreza (true, but not by much!). What do you think? Will I get my first wish....the Forester? I have one problem though...someone told me that there are GM parts in the Forester that are not on the Impreza (Impreza more truely Japanese than the Forester). Possible?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    bug eyes have been banished from the new Impreza.

    As to GM parts in the Forester, probably no more than are in the Impreza. Both these vehicles come from Japan, and are made in the same factory.

    I thought you had ruled out the Forester, due to its higher MSRP?!?!

    Bob
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    I think Subaru is forced to sufficiently distinguish the Forester demographically from the WRX wagon. So the turbo Forester will most likely be pretty complete, probably with leather standard. If they allow a manual/auto choice, this nicely covers for the current lack of leather as an option on the premium manual model. Again, if you want a turbo in what is not a bare-bones sports car, you are likely to want other amenities as well. That won’t fit all customers, but has the advantage that they will make money on the extras to cover for the fact that the market doesn't allow them to charge much for the turbo alone. My guess is ~$1500 over the current premium ($26.5K MSRP manual, $27.3K auto, both incl. leather), with lower street prices as we see now. I believe the current market does not allow more than that.

    - D
  • joybelljoybell Member Posts: 275
    Yes, the Forester is C$5000 more, and no, I did not rule it out. My husband did. Maybe he will change his mind. I think the kids' sleds would fit better in the Forester than in the Impreza, amoung other things. Can't use the trucks unless I tie down the toboggan. Also, the Forester has better safety ratings, maybe that is why insurance is cheaper than on the Impreza. I like the Impreza (with the bug eyes) because it looks sporty, but the Forester is more practical. I do however, like the older model Forester better too, since the new one is "shaped" too much. It has a "quilted" look about it. I guess I like really boxy wagons, if I want a wagon, and really sporty looking cars if I want a car. No, my preference has been a Forester since day one. Do you know why I can't get a Forester L anymore? Did they stop making them or are they just not sold in Canada?
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    "...Also, the Forester has better safety ratings..."
    They're pretty close actually.
    On nhtsa.dot.gov, the '02 Forester got 4 stars for front driver and passerger. The '02/'03 Impreza gets 4 for the driver and 5 for the passenger. For the rear side tests, the Impreza gets a 4 while the Forester gets a 5.
    On iihs.org the '02 Forester and Impreza both get "Good" overall.

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The new Forester L is now called the Forester X, at least here in the USA. It fills the same market slot, as the entry-level Forester? It comes with steel wheels, rather than alloys, and dark gray lower body cladding just like the old Forester L.

    Is that not available in Canada?

    Bob
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    is available in Canada and does replace the old L model.

      Cheers Pat.
  • joybelljoybell Member Posts: 275
    OK, looks like it is the Forester X. The X still looks like it has lots of stuff. Howerver, the one I saw in the showroom was the fancier one and did not have the plastic lower body cladding. Do they do this to save on steel or what?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    One of the advantages of Subaru, IMO, is that they offer a lot of standard content on all models, even base models. I like that. You probably disagree, judging by your posts.

    All Foresters have plastic lower body cladding, of some sort.

    Bob
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    "All Foresters have plastic lower body cladding"

    For clarification, Subaru just saves a few bucks on the X model by not painting it.

    I'll absolutely scream if the turbo Forester doesn't come with a MT option!!!!!!!! I'm hoping that Subaru goes the "sporty" route and just offer a turbo without leather or a bunch of other bells & whistles that only serve to increase the purchase price.

    -Frank P.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm hoping the turbo will be a stand alone option, that would be available on either the the X or XS model. I think that would be the perfect solution, but I think it's highly unlikely to happen. I hope I'm wrong.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That would cost a lot in production to have the turbo as a stand alone option. I don't think that it's been a stand alone option since the '80s on subies.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd like to see the turbo engine as a stand-alone $600 option, like GM does in much of its lineup.

    I realize pigs are more likely to fly, but that's what I want. I still have a soft spot for the unpainted cladding on the bargain Foresters. Imagine, you could get a turbo 5 speed for about $20 grand!

    Subaru won't do it because most people will be willing to pay $25k or so for a loaded up turbo, myself included. Though it'll be a much tougher sell to the wife, who wants a BIG vehicle for that kind of money.

    Monica: that lower cladding helps it ace both the IIHS bumper basher test and crash tests, something extremely difficult to do. There is no metal behind it on the bumpers because it's not needed. There is sheetmetal on the lower doors, though.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << I'd like to see the turbo engine as a stand-alone $600 option, like GM does in much of its lineup.

    I realize pigs are more likely to fly, but that's what I want. I still have a soft spot for the unpainted cladding on the bargain Foresters. Imagine, you could get a turbo 5 speed for about $20 grand! >>

    If it did happen, it would be segment first. Usually turbos get packaged as top-dollar models. I think Subaru could pull a real "fast one" (pun intended!) on the competition by offering this engine in bottom-feeder models, as well as top-dollar models.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Forester would cream every competitor across the board, and at all price levels.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Yes, a standalone turbo option would be great, but we all know it aint gonna happen.

    Premium options have a synergistic effect. The more you bundling together in one vehicle, the easier it is for a manufacturer to sell a bunch together at a higher price than each alone. It's kind of like those infomercials -- "but wait, there's more!".

    Bundling options is a very common pratcice. We even do it with our multi-million dollar test equipment.

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I don't think Subaru has the volume to creat a turbo a stand alone option. Think of how many different combinations they'd need to produce? When you "order" a car you really aren't ordering anything, they produce the cars and then you get them out of "stock", that stock might be from the factory. GM can afford to do stand alone options because of volume, let's say they produce 1000 Buicks with the SC option and 1000 w/o SC and 1000 w/SC + Leather and 1000 w/o SC but + Leather, chances are they'll sell all 4000 vehicles. If Subaru did the same thing, they'd be sure to be stuck with some cars when it's all said and done.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It seems to me that Subaru is cultivating two groups of customers: Those who want turbos, and those who don't. The hard-core performance fans here favor turbos, while the average non-enthusiast prefers naturally aspirated engines. With that thought in mind, I'm suggesting that Subaru may offer a larger 3.5L H-6 when the new Legacy/Outback debuts, or shortly thereafter. Here's why I think that may happen:

    &#149; Subaru seems to like to work in units of 500cc, hence my prediction for a 3.5L. Currently there are 1.5L, 2.0L, 2.5L, and 3.0L engines already on the market. Yes, there is also a 1.6L H-4 for Europe, and we had the the 2.2L for some time, but I think Subaru's first "instinct" is to work in 500cc increments.

    &#149; Nissan has a superb 3.5, with various horsepower ratings, that begin around 240 and go up from there.

    &#149; Honda has squeezed 240 HP out of their 3.0, but then again, Honda always get more HP out of any given engine size.

    &#149; Toyota/Lexus have just introduced a new 3.3L V6 for the new '04 Sienna and RX330. Surely that engine will work its way into the Camry and other models too.

    &#149; I think a 3.5L H-6 might appeal more to customers of the upcoming 7-passenger crossover, than a turbo 3.0L H-6, no matter how good that turbo engine may be. I really think there will always be people who will be suspicious of turbos, especially those who may be attracted to this type of vehicle.

    &#149; The new 7-passenger crossover will inevitably be compared to the 3.5L Honda Pilot, the 3.5L Nissan Murano, etc. The larger 3.5L H-6 will make it easier for Subaru to compete.

    &#149; I think Subaru may feel pressure to develop a 3.5L engine, if for no other reason than to match bragging rights with the others.

    &#149; It's probably cheaper to build a simpler 3.5L H-6, than to build a far more complicated 3.0L H-6 turbo.

    &#149; Hopefully Subaru has learned its lesson of not offering enough engine from the "git-go," with the Baja. If that vehicle had a more powerful engine at the startup, I'm sure the sales would be much stronger than they are.

    Also, I would be very hesitant to say it will never happen, or that it is very unlikely. Remember, there were a lot of people who said a 2.5L 300 HP turbo would never happen too. Finally, I don't think a 3.5 H-6 will replace the current 3.0 H-6, although it could in certain markets. I just see it as an additional engine, added to Subaru's current engine portfolio.

    Bob
  • wrxsoon1wrxsoon1 Member Posts: 158
    I don't know how you come up with this stuff... I swear Subaru should hire you as a product planner or something similar. You've got some great ideas and they all seem very well thought out.

    -Ian
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm just an unrepentant car nut, and I've been that way all my life. ;) I think that love for cars, plus my 30+ years in graphic design and marketing, allows me to think like a product planner.

    I just hope SOA is listening. Speaking of which, Patti, I hope you're back to snuff. We haven't heard from you in some time.

    Bob
  • dsattlerdsattler Member Posts: 135
    Well, Bob has been in advertising/marketing/graphic design for a few decades... :)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Hey, David! Haven't seen you in a while (too long!)... Did you ever get your WRX wagon? Do you ever see any of the old AGAS gang?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Opel = GM

    We can see the GM push happening already. This IMHO is not a good sign for 10 years down the road.

    -mike
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Subaru doesn't have the capital to launch a whole new dealer network in a new country, so they'll use an arm that is already there?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I was just thumbing through the latest issue of UK's CAR magazine, one of my favorite car rags, and noticed that that VW is considering gullwing doors for their next-generation supermini, the Lupo. If the illustrations are anywhere near acurate, the car will be an absolute "stunner," IMO.

    This got me to thinking: What if the neo-SVX (or whatever it will be called) that GM and Subaru are working on, had gullwing side doors?

    The gullwing is remembered very fondly because of the MB 300SL from the 1950s, and I'm sure Subaru would want to offer a feature to make it unique. Gullwing doors could just do the trick. Unlike the old SVX's goofy side windows, gullwing doors offer real practical features, one being that it works for both front and rear passengers.

    If you think about it, a gullwing is based on the same principle being used on wagon hatches. A number of Japanese-only wagons, as well as the new Dodge Magnum concept wagon that was just shown at the Detroit show, have rear hatches that open well into the roof, just like a gullwing. The same principle could be applied to side doors.

    One of the issues that was raised in the VW Lupo article was that of safety. I the car rolled on its roof, how would you open the doors? That was answered by VW's big cheeze, by saying, the windows would pop out via a airbag-type firing mechanism. Might just work...

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I was reading through the teaser WRX/WRX STi brochure I got in the mail yesterday, and noticed that the STi's seats are covered with "Ecsaine" which is the same fabric found on a version of the new Montero and the '04 4Runner Sport.

    I REALLY like this material. I loved it on the Montero that I test drove a couple of months ago. It looks very upscale, and it very much resembles suede. It's comfortable, and grips you like glue. I'm really glad they opted for this, rather than leather.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No offense but if you've ever read about the SVX you'd know that the "goofy" windows on the SVX were more for practical reasons than for looks. You can't have free glas that curves inward, that is the primary reason for the goofy glass because the top half of the glass curves up toward the roofline, this gives the car a much better aerodynamics (.27 or .28 on the SVX IIRC) as well as the cockpit gets better visibility.

    I'd like to see gullwing doors, they help achieve similar aerodynamics.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Also used in the SVX :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware most people hated those windows. They didn't like the black horizontal line created by the setup, and I've heard of complaints by people trying to pay tolls at toll booths, in that the windows made paying tolls more difficult. You may disagree, but those are complaints I've heard from other owners.

    Subaru also had the problem of not being able to "sell" the advantages of those windows to customers. A lot of potential SVX owners just did not like those windows. Subaru lost a lot of customers because of those windows.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Functional Yes. :)

    I don't pay tolls so it's not an issue for me (EZ pass is everywhere from DC->Maine and as far West as Ohio)

    My windows are also tinted now so the black line is not as obvious. Most people I've spoken to are annoyed for about 1 week, then your eyes are trained to not notice the line kinda like wearing glasses for the first time.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    was not available until fairly recently, and even today, not everybody has that. I don't have EZ Pass, because rarely do I encounter tolls; so that was/is a valid complaint.

    As to getting used to the black line, yeah I supposed so. The problem was not enough people bought into the idea in the first place. By that I mean they were turned off in the showroom, so they never became owners in the first place, or had a chance to get used to the windows.

    It was not a good marketing move. Subaru ended shooting themselves in the foot with those windows. I think if the SVX had conventional windows, it would have stood a much better chance of surviving in the marketplace.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    We've had EZ Pass for almost 10 years. I agree mainstream windows would have sold it better. If you ever pay tolls, even if it's rarely EZ pass can save you 20+ minutes.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    only in the NY area, where you are constantly running into tolls, is EZ Pass a real advantage. For most of the rest of the country, it's not worth getting, IMO.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Maybe cause I have TDD it always helps me. Even crossing the deleware river bridges it helps. Besides it costs you $10 deposit on the tag.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    or if I traveled a lot of toll roads, I would probably get it. But I don't, so I don't need it. I probably encounter tolls maybe 3 - 4 times a year&#151;if that.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Or will it use a Saab engine? The boxer-engined Subies have not, in the past, lent themselves to other engine configurations

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    From the story:

    "Sources say Saab will sign a deal in March with Subaru holding company Fuji Heavy Industries to build a Subaru Impreza-like car with a boxer-four engine and tag it as the 9-2. "

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Next time maybe I'll read it with my eyes open. ;)

    If this proves successful, does that mean we'll see more Saabarus in the future? And if so, will that put a ceiling on Subaru in terms of how far up-market the Subaru brand can go?

    Bob
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