Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

brorjace · December 2001

tsjay, have you always used Mobil 1 in this vehicle?

Perhaps the oil you used before left behind a little bit of sludge and varnish and the mobil synthetic is just cleaning that up?

I found that when I used Castrol Syntec and then switched to something else like Mobil 1 or Valvoline Synpower, the following oil would look dark quite quickly. I tried not to let it bother me.

I suggest you get the oil analyzed if this is really bugging you. If the old oil is sitting in a container in the garage awaiting recycling, you'll have to really shake it up before taking a sample.

Or, you could merely have the NEXT next oil change's oil sampled and tested.

--- Bror Jace

ronstoy · December 2001

That oil analysis a few posts back sounds like the multivitamin that I take (or supposed to) take daily.

BTW, who does these analysis, Pep Boys?

Ron

tsjay · December 2001

My Jeep is on her second round of Mobil 1. I used regular oil for the first 5K and then switched to Mobil 1. I had the oil changed at 10K with Mobil 1 for the second time, and this is the oil that is currently in the Jeep. The Jeep now has 13,500 miles on it.

I really think this relates to the fact that the Jeep sits so much of the time without being driven. I am trying to drive it one day a week to work for a round trip of 54 miles of highway driving. I think I'll have the oil changed Monday, and then start checking the new oil at least once a week for color.

I will see how long it takes for the color to start getting dark next time.

Thanks

tom

brorjace · December 2001

ronstoy, take a look at the topic in this sub-forum entitled "Oil Analysis Sites" and that has some places in it.

tsjay, I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter how long a vehicle sits (within reason) as long as when it is finally driven, it is driven for at least 20 minutes to allow the PCV system to rid the crankcase of any accumulated moisture. So, avoid short trips if you can. If you can't, change the oil & filter a little more often.

I think it's the variations in vehicles that's the cause of your darker oil. Maybe your rings are taking longer to seat or maybe they won't seat as well as the other poster's Jeep. Annoying as that may be, it's not likely to affect the longevity of the vehicle. Just oil consumption and/or color of the oil.

--- Bror Jace

bidandsell · December 2001

I go 7500 between changes and the oil is maybe a dark amber at worst. I use 4.5 quarts of Mobil1 15w50 and 2 quarts of Maxlife 20w50. I also use a Motorcraft FL1a filter or its equivalent , this filter is a little larger than factory but has the same gasket, thread and relief valve. It also allows an extra 1/2 quart of oil or so. BTW it has 128,000 miles on it.

adc100 · December 2001

Personally I would not change after that length of time. Is the filter easy to change on the Jeep? Can you do it yourself?

tsjay · December 2001

I have the oil changed at a place where I can hang around and watch the whole process. There's a GM dealership in the town where I work that changes oil and filter and lubes the vehicle for $5.95 when you bring in your own oil and filter.

There is also a small shop just a half a mile from my house that offers a similar deal.

In either of these places, you are allowed to hang out right there with the guy doing the work and "supervise."

I am putting so few miles on the Jeep now that my 5K oil change interval would be probably nine months or more. I know lots of you guys in here go a year on oil changes with synthetic, but apparently you are not seeing the oil get as dark as mine has.

I will spend a few bucks and have the oil changed tomorrow and then will pay close attention to the change in color as time goes by on the next cycle.

The peace of mind will be worth the money I spend on an oil change. I can get six quarts of Mobil 1 and a good filter for about $35 and spend another $6 to have it changed.

I am so grateful to all of you guys who have taken time to respond, and I will definitely keep all of you posted on how things are progressing during that next cycle.

thanks to all of you

tom

tsjay · December 2001

I wish all of my buddies here a Happy New Year!

I also want to thank all of you who have provided great info on the different types of oil and on oil change frequency.

I especially thank all of you who have responded to my recent questions about the oil in my Jeep.

May your oil stay slippery and clean!

tom

gmlover1 · December 2001

Sorry Greg I wasn't trying to scare you. What I was trying to show is that all engines are different even when their the same. If it runs fine I wouldn't worry about it. The engine your talking about is a 40 year design, it could probable go 200,000 miles with a minimum of maintenance.

gregb882 · December 2001

No problem, I was just kiddin' around. I, too, feel the 4.0L is a workhorse and the dark oil doesn't mean it's going south anytime soon. In fact, my brother-in-law bought my old Jeep almost 5 years ago and loves it. He hasn't had any trouble with the engine/grive train. If I remember correctly, the 4.0L is an old GM design (speaking of 'gmlover') that Jeep licensed back in the 60's. I'm not sure where I heard that but I think it's correct. Had you heard that? Have a good New Year!

gmlover1 · December 2001

At one time back in the 60,s jeep bought the GM 3.8L, then GM bought it back in the 70,s. In the 80,s when AMC was on it,s last legs it was using the GM 2.8L v6 in the Cherokee. As for the 4.0L I believe it,s an AMC engine that went anywhere from 232ci to 258ci.

gregb882 · December 2001

Thanks for the info. It's always good to get the facts straight!

mrdetailer · December 2001

I thought I would go directly to the source since I am seriously considering Mixing 3 quarts of Maxlife with one quart of Synpower. I contacted Valvoline directly. Here is what they said.

Yes, you can mix the two oils. We don't recommend mixing two different
brands of oils or two different oil viscosities. For more information,
please call our technical hotline at 1-800-254-8957.

I don't see how mixing Maxlife with MobileOne falls within the oil recommendations.

mrdetailer · December 2001

I have had a car that has had a rough 7 months. Bad spark plug, engine fouling, timing off, replaced timing belt tensioner, bad PCV Valve, MAP, and oxy sensor. Finally fixed. Engine runs great now.

When I sent the oil in for Analysis, QS syn blend, it was much blacker than I had ever imagined. However, the analysis showed that it was still in excellent shape.

So color alone is not an indication of a problem.

csandste · December 2001

What's the big deal with that? I always thought that if you mixed a quart of 5W30 with a quart of 10W30 that you'd get two quarts of 7.5W30. Can somebody explain Valvoline's comments.

mrdetailer · December 2001

I used QState Syn this summer 5W-50. Didn't like the gas mileage result. When I replaced the filter I put in 5W-30. It now has half 5W-50, and 5W-30. It's run fine and gotten improved mileage.

adc100 · December 2001

I have heard that your reasoning is not correct. The theory goes that half of the molecules have a viscosity of 10 and the other half 5. In actual practice though I would think the mixture would be somewhere in between also.

csandste · December 2001

But since this is a fluid, it should mix. I would think the idea of identical molecules for a particular weight might be applicable for syn. but certainly not dino.

dhanley · December 2001

I didn't notice a change in mileage/performance when i dumped 15w50 in, but i suppose engine design may be a factor there. Also, i didn't track mileage well enough to eliminate all potential factors, so i may in fact be taking a small mileage hit.

dave

wain · December 2001

Consumer reports magazine in the big taxi test a few years ago said mixing was OK, weights, brands, etc.
Old wives tales they said about not mixing.
They also said all api graded oils were the same.
people do not like to hear that

brorjace · December 2001

Mr. Detailer, it sounds like you got the standard, pat answer ... maybe they didn't read your question carefully?

Anyway, the guy I talked to on their 800 line a year ago was very knowledgeable (probably a chemist ... he knew what PAO was) and he should know if the two oils have additive packages which might interfere with each other.

Of course, what he may be allowed to say might still be dominated by a bunch of CYA nonsense. I'd like to think there are a few companies that are immune to this ... but I'm probably just kidding myself. <:^(

--- <b>Bror Jace

yurakm · January 2002

I have a following problem with my 98 Malibu (base model with then optional 3.1l v-6 engine): When it is freezing outside, the car moves very slow at first. It happens when the outside temperature is even just a notch below 32F / 0C, but probably not every time. More pronounced when I have to start faster.

The problem started this fall, with the first morning frosts in October, at about 45K miles.

The first time I did not expected this and it was really dangerous: I had to make left turn across a street from driveway, and to merge into traffic in a place with bad visibility, between two small hill tops on the street. And the car crawled, not moved.

Today it was about 23F / -5C outside. When I glanced on the instruments they show 3,000 rpm at 10 mph; after the first 100 yards or so rpm switched to something like 2500 rpm, while the speed increased to 15, than 20 mph. I moved uphill, so the second set of parameters would be more or less normal for starting, while the start was unusually slow.

I believe, this behaviour is related to transmission or to its electronic controls. Probably it does not shift from the 1-st gear for too long when it is cold.

The last winter the car used to stick on the second gear when starting in frost, but not on the 1-st one.

The car had transmission service in May, at 40K miles. Mobil-1 synthetic ATF liquid, and the $80 Delco transmission filter.

Uses Mobil-1 5W-30 engine oil, and Pure One filter. So I do not expect problems in this department.

mrdetailer · January 2002

I called Valvoline about this issue due to what I thought was their strange response. Their reasoning was that if you mix 2 different viscosities you don't get exactly what you think you'll get. Like mixing a 5W-30 with a 10W-40 doesn't give you a 7.5W-35 weight oil. Couldn't give a stronger reason than that. It still should be compatible.

With the vast majority of those here, I remain unconvinced if you want to do it.

armtdm · January 2002

Sounds like the ole days when the trannyluid had to warm up for the car to shift properly. are you sure it is Mobil 1 in there?

yurakm · January 2002

You wrote: are you sure it is Mobil 1 in there?

I definitely bought 15 quarts of Mobil 1 ATF at Pep Boys, brought the liquid for transmission service, and the shop returned one box (6 quarts) still packed.

I am servicing my cars at the shop for 5.5 years. This is a reputable shop, recommended by AAA. I like the owner, and have absolutely no reason to suspect anything unproper.

Any case, I thought it must not happens with natural oil based ATF either. Previousely the car used to stick on the 2-nd gear till warmed, but never stick on the 1-st gear.

However, I called the Chevy dealer today, and a very experienced service adviser told me this is normal for such a weather.

My wife pointed that it is the first winter without snow nor icing. Previously we used to clean the car from ice/snow in cold mornings, with working engine, till the windshield and windows became clear, and when we started to move, the car usually was warm already.

Additionally, we moved recently. Currently we are driving up a step hill for the first hundreds yards, while previousely the terrains were more or less flat, even a bit downhill.

In the future I will warm the car and will put it for minute or two on the neitral gear before driving, when it is cold. Or possibly even will buy a remote starter...

goodguy2 · January 2002

After talking to 4 local GM service managers I have received essentially the same information regards the first oil change.

Leave it in until either the vehicle tells you its time for an oil change or 3000 miles, whichever comes first.

When asked about changing the oil in order to flush out engine shavings before 3000 miles I was told that is no longer a concern with GM vehicles as the engine has been flushed out (along with shavings) before it was installed.

Also was told that the original oil is nothing special. Just 5w-30 special weight.

Wait 3000 miles until you use any synthetic brand.

If you have any doubts contact your service manager. Don't take what you may have read on the net as gospel. A little common sense will go a long way.

adc100 · January 2002

I wonder how he rationalizes the first syn oil change at 3K when Corvette (Chevy Engine) comes filled with syn oil??

goodguy2 · January 2002

What's your source?

adc100 · January 2002

Several years ago I saw a sticker in a 'Vette-under the hood. It's pretty common knowledge. They needed to use synthetic to delete an oil cooler. The engine space is pretty restricted-engine runs hotter.

vetteryan · January 2002

The Corvette engine is not a high revving engine, nor necessarily High Output. An Acura RSX type-r or Celica Gts is H.O. and high revving. Each have 100 horse power per liter displacement and rev up to 8200 rpm. If a vette had that much HP per liter, it would have 570 HP not 345.
It is true though that they did switch to Mobil 1 synthetic in 1992 with the LT-1 engine in order to get rid of the oil cooler. People race vettes, thats why it is needed, not because it is H.O. or high revving (it doesn't need to be!)

vetteryan · January 2002

An added note, my 93 Geo Prism has 68 hp per liter, while a new corvette 1999 has only 60 hp per liter displacement.

amorales · January 2002

factory with Mobil 1. Unless your recently re-built your engine. Let the rings seat and wear out the hone marks on cylinder walls, say 1500 mi then switch to Full Synthetic.

brorjace · January 2002

What's true for Mobil 1 and other PAO-based synthetics may not be true for something like Redline. On Redline's bottle they warn not use their oil in cars with fewer than 3,000 miles on it.

Yes, Mobil has been advertising for years now that their Mobil 1 has been the factory fill in Chevy Corvette, Porsche, Volvo, Aston Martin, Mercedes AMG, and possibly others.

--- Bror Jace

mrdetailer · January 2002

like Valvoline Maxlife, Quaker State Higher Mileage Engine Oil, or Castrol Syntec (Gasp!) These are highly refined oils, often called hydrocracked, which have great anti slugging capabilities, higher detergents to clean the engine. Maxlife sent me documentation that conventional oil would thicken about 250% in 75 hours. This would only thicken 50%. Now this test heats the oil and stresses the engine so it is specifically designed to turn oil into sludge. Synthetic is of course better on this test, but doesn't help seal hairline cracks in seals like these oils are designed to do.

But Hydrocracked oils don't have as good of a cold temp start. -37 degrees centigrade instead of over -55. But that's a heck of a lot colder than it ever gets in my area.

I believe that you get about 75% of the synthetic oil protection at a generally much lower price.

I don't try to get extended use out of hydrocracked oils myself.

My experience with seal leakage on my current cars.

Dodge -- Conventional oil. Valve cover Leaked at 115,000, and 165K. Replaced with new valve cover as per TSB hopefully it will last longer. Will stay with conventional since recent oil analysis showed that it was working just fine and I only want it to last for another 30K.

Subaru -- Blended oil until 18 months ago, converted to synthetic. camcover and crankcase seals replaced at 90,000 (pre-conversion), and camcover gaskets at 125K. Very Hard working engine, will stick with synthetic.

Mazda -- Synthetic Blend only. Valve cover replaced at 115K, Cam and crankshaft seals, along with timing belt softened by oil leakage 120K. An expensive repair. Since I have replaced many significant seals recently,I'm converting this to Maxlife.

chuasan · January 2002

I am currently using Castrol GTX 10W-30. The car seems to run OK. However, I would like to know how other brands perform compare to Castrol. What I really wanna know is will different brand of engine oil change the fuel consumption, acceleration and engine wear? Thank you

adc100 · January 2002

And really dino oil thickens as you drive and thus your milage will be a function of the amount of deterioration to the oil. I supose the oil that has the best additive package would do the best over a specific amount of miles. It all boils down to how often do you change your oil. And that may not be very significant. Test that might be done by the oil research departments would never make the public domain.

csandste · January 2002

I think I asked this question before (maybe in synthetic thread) but I don't think I got an answer.

Most of the dino oil on the shelf passes SL/ILSAC GF3. The synthetic still seems to be SJ/GF2. Is this just old stock being cleared out, or is there a reason? i.e. Mobil dino meets the new standard but Mobil 1 still lists old standard.

brorjace · January 2002

chuasan,
We tend to compare and contrast synthetics more than dino oils. Since all the dinos have been reformulated once in the last few years, I'm pretty sure they're all comparable. I sort of favor Valvoline (based on reputation alone) but neither I nor anyone here is really "in the tank" for one brand over another.

The discussion about synthtics has more 'meat' to it because of the different formulations and the controversial shift from PAO to hydrocracked crude.

csandste, I think the recent shift to SL classification necessitated some reformulation on every dino's part ... so you see new bottles proclaiming "new & improved". Meanwhile, only SOME of the synthetics have new labeling. I've seen new Castrol, new Valvoline, etc ... but not all. I don't think I've seen a new Mobil 1 bottle yet.

--- Bror Jace

gmlover1 · January 2002

In any ones opinion which nonsync oil is the best.

mrdetailer · January 2002

Valvoline Maxlife, or any syn blend will be better than pure conventional oil. Conventional Valvoline.

vidtech · January 2002

Can anyone tell me what changes were made to the new SL rated oil?

bobistheoilguy · January 2002

here is the Current/Active U.S. Passenger Car Engine Oil Specifications

between the sh,sj,sl oils.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/currentapitest.htm#SJ

GF-3 oils must pass stiff tests in a number of areas that relate to better mileage and engine protection.

Volatility Cold-temperature gellation Foaming tendency High-temperature / high shear-rate viscosity Filterability Fuel efficiency Catalyst compatibility Low-temperature viscosity

gf2 oils were in fact a step down from a gf1 oil. so the gf3 is now suppose to be better than the old gf1 and of course the gf2 oils in respect to oxidation,antifoam,and such.

bobistheoilguy

csandste · January 2002

Extremely helpful. Is there any way you can bring these two standards up side by side for easier comparison?

csandste · January 2002

I'm sure this has been discussed in this forum. This was one of my favorite threads and I didn't want to see it drop off the first page, so here goes.

I got in a bit of a discussion in the Elantra GT thread. A buyer's mother was going to change her oil at 1K or thereabouts. I stated that modern engines don't need a change at that mileage (no mention in the manual--regular interval) because:

1. there's no such thing as break-in oil and
2. modern engines don't have pieces of metal floating around in them.

I was challenged on the second point. Comments?

pjksr · January 2002

After reviewing their data online, it seems Citgo Supergard posts some pretty impressive numbers, especially its flash point (5W-30 is 442 degrees; 10W-30 is 451).

Is this oil hydrocracked? Any experience with it?

silvercoupe · February 2002

I had the same opinion as you on this until I was directed to the Honda web site. They recommend leaving the "break-in" oil in until the regular interval is reached (at least 3,500 miles for severe service).

Before I knew this I changed the oil in my 2000 Accord at 1,000 miles. No problems so far at 27,000 miles. Uses no oil.

sam082158 · February 2002

My 2000 Honda Odyssey with 43,000 miles started smoking this week. I checked the oil, thinking it might show that it was low. It was about an inch above the full mark! It's been about 3000 miles since it was changed at the dealer. I took it in and they admitted it had been overfilled and gave me a free oil change and a wash. They say that they are sure no damage was done. If it hadn't started smoking, I wouldn't be so worried about it. Funny how it took about 3000 miles for the smoking to start. By the way, it only smoked occasionally upon warm start-up.

QUESTION: Do you think any damage could have been done?

zr2rando · February 2002

Blue smoke is oil burning and if it keeps up , keep the dealer involved and make them clear up the problem..too much oil in pan means crankshaft
splashing too much and possibly too much pressure and leaking seals....don't just blow it off, may cause some problems soon
Good luck
Rando

brorjace · February 2002

Hmmm ... I saw a dude dump a quart or two of oil into an Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine and the whoosh of smoke that billowed out of it looked like he had just blown his gasket ... but it stopped as suddenly as it started. I walked over and told the kid he was probably fine ... but to check the plugs for fouling in the next day or two.

The real reason to worry about over-filling (aside from future leaks) your crankcase is because the crankshaft turning in the oil can produce excess foaming. This foam introduced into your oiling system (instead of liquid oil) can cause oil starvation and premature wear.

It's odd that OVER filling your car can cause oil STARVATION problems, but that's the way it works.

It's fairly easy to drain just a quart or so out of your pan. Just a touch messy. I'd do just that the next time you notice it over-full and be more careful filling it from now on.

You'd think a dealership would know better ... but I've never been too impressed with dealer service. Usually competent ... but not as good as they want the customers to believe.

--- Bror Jace

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

I couldn't agree more. About 5 years ago I bought a brand new Geo Prizm. I did the first oil & filter change myself at 1000 miles. For the next change, I took it to the dealership for the "free" oil and filter change that was part of every new car sale at that franchise. I drove home the short ride that it was, and decided to check the "job" a bit, having "profiled" the individual who did the work. This 3.5 quart crankcase had 5 quarts of oil in it. I corrected the problem myself rather than drive it back there. The car has never been on their property since. At 56K miles, I have to assume there was no damage done. Dealerships CAN be dangerous to your vehicles. Make no assumptions, and check everything. Do as much for yourself as possible.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles