Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

tsjay · February 2002

I don't do my own, but I ONLY go places to have it changed where I can watch the whole process. I have two such places that I can go.

tom

Jocko · February 2002

The manual calls for 5W-20 oil for the vehicle. None of the Honda dealers in the Orlando, FL area carry this. They all use 10W30 for their oil changes. Any comments? The weather here is quite warm all the time. It would seem that the 10W-30 would be thin enough to flow easily on a cold start and also give sufficient protection at road speeds. Thanks for any advice you may offer.

Jack

mrdetailer · February 2002

There is a reason they recommend it. My local Jiffy Lube manager said he had a training where they scoped inside a 5W-20 engine wi 10w-30, and it had sludged. Go with a synthetic during the warranty period, then after the valve clearances have worn down a little then you can go wi a heavier oil. However due to the recommendations I would go with an SL ILSC GF-3 5W-30 oil. it has a slightly better flow according to the Qstate and Valvoline spec sheets that I have. (in spite of the claim that it is the same). This would help prevent gumming.

mrdetailer · February 2002

I'm sure I drove the oil change person crazy, I bring in a bottle of 5W-30 Synpower, had them put that in and 4 more bottles of Maxlife. Also put in a Mobil One Filter. Will do analysis at next oil change, probably after a long trip to San Diego this June. Want to see if this lives up to it's hype.

Notice that both Castrol and QState also have high mileage oils. It's an up and coming trend.

wain · February 2002

maxlife is not API approved, tho bottle says "exceeds all API specs"

I may quit using it.

zr2rando · February 2002

Take your normal oil,
add CD-2 detergent
add STP
add Bar's stop leak
then you would have any brand of maxlife you want.
Once you add anything to the oil you have probably "de"-API-approved the oil you are using anyway.
I catch a lot of flak on these oil related posts because I add STP to oil for older engines, in a way I am making my own maxlife (so-to-speak) myself. Anyone using maxlife is just adding detergent/ZDDP/ and seal swell (probably just smaller proportions than if they added a full bottle of each though.
I imagine the ZDDP would be the main reason they would not API approved, just guessing though.
Rando

brorjace · February 2002

API approval?

I say it's over-rated. A lot of oils won't meet the specifications for SJ or SL oils because their additive package is too potent (good).

Look at some racing oils, they only meet SG or SH specs because of this.

If I couldn't find a 5W20 oil for my 2001 Ford or Honda, I'd use a 5W30 synthetic ... or even a 0W30 synthetic.

--- Bror Jace

slickracer · February 2002

If a person wanted to use a Synthetic Blend which would be best; 4 quarts regular oil and 1 quart synthetic, or the same makers pre-packaged Synthetic Blend? In this case Valvoline.

adc100 · February 2002

Syn blends are a ripoff.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

Some years ago there was some excitement in private aviation concerning evidence that blends were even better than full synthetics for small aircraft. A pilot friend laid that one on me, but I never checked it out.

bobistheoilguy · February 2002

didn't know we had so many chemists on this board.

ywilson · February 2002

Does anyone have any information on BG MOA? It is an oil additive that from what I have seen works very well. A friend turned me onto it after he took his engine apart and showed me the internals while he was rebuilding it. The innards were very clean. I have been using it for the past 2 oil changes and it seems to do very well with my synth oil.

opera_house_wk · February 2002

Years back I was reading an long article about engine oils in aircraft. The only thing I can remember about it is they stated that the synthetic oils could not suspend contaminates as well as well as conventional. Seems like a solvable problem for the makers. This could be the origin of the story that blends are better.

STP - Documented proof. When I was a little sprout, I had a hydroplane with a 5 1/2 hp Johnson. I'd head down the river and in 15-20 minutes the engine would grind to a halt. Carried a large monkey wrench with me and after sloshing water on the engine to cool it down, I would break it free. Off I would go again! I found that if I added STP to the gas that I could almost double the time before the engine seized. Can't figure out why I just didn't just put in a new water pump. Oh, to be young.

csandste · February 2002

are you saying STP OIL treatment mixed with the gas or STP gas treatment. If the former, how did you keep it in suspension? I always thought 2 stroke oil was pretty light.

goodengine · February 2002

goodengine · February 2002

My grandfather was standing on Hudson boulevard in Newark NJ on a spring day in 1938. A neighbor had watched him polish his new Chevy every day for a while. One day, the neighbor approached with a case of Q-state oil. He told my grandfather that if he used Q-state oil, he would never have an engine go bad. He was 17 then and is 81 now. He has yet to have an engine go bad while observing 3000 mile oil and filter changes. Has always used Q-state dino oil, still does.

adc100 · February 2002

Atlantic used to sludge up like clockwork. QS, Pennzoil, Wolf's head were Pa. oils which tended to sludge due to Paraffin base of the oil. QS used to be the worst. We're talking days of 1500 mile oil changes. Whipped cream could lubricate that long.

BG MOA in my very humble opinion you are wasting money on the additive and at the worst could be counteracting the additive that the manufacturer spent lots of money developing. The proper syn oil has been shown to take cars 200K with 15K oil changes and almost no wear on wear parts. How can you do better than that? And it would be difficult for you (or me) to say that the product is doing any good.

opera_house_wk · February 2002

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

It sure does! And gasoline is a good way to clean up STP from your garage floor. Do you remember the old "cans" of STP? They were essentially a cardboard roll with tin can end plates, top and bottom. I still have one, out in my garage. I look at it every now and again, wonder why I have kept it as a collectible, contemplate using it-- then I set it down and move on...

zr2rando · February 2002

I keep seeing people selling those old cans of oil made that same way at antique stores, one of these days that can will be worth something too,,
Not making fun of it, I use STP (the generic brand anyway) in my older truck, hang on to that old can!
see ya
Rando

opera_house_wk · February 2002

Who would have thought you were all that sentimental. Didn't anyone get a chuckle out of this kid barreling down the river, grinding his outboard to death.

rd_volvo · February 2002

I've been trying different oils in my 99'
volvo[turbo]. [Mobil1, Citgo, Castrol gtx]

Does anyone know which non synthetic oil
has a universal opinion for excellence.

I have Castrol gtx in the crankcase right now
and it seems good. Someone told me Castrol has
no paraffins and has many years of experience
in cars that rev high.

Is the gtx a good choice to stick with and have others had great longevity with gtx?[250-400kmles]

TY

rd

armtdm · February 2002

I will not purchase Castrol products simply because they are using false and mileading adverstising on their Syntec. It is not a full synthetic oil yet they continue to state so on the containers and charge the same price as the full synthetics.

Try Havoline etc. Personally, with the turbo, (assume you let it wind down before shutting engine off) and coking I would use Mobil 1 all the time

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

I recall that many of the big brands have non-synthetic oils that are rated for turbos, and say so somewhere on the container. I would suspect that any of those just might work out well for you.

mrdetailer · February 2002

He has gotten inside 200,000 mile engines for repairs and found that the engine was completely clean inside. He has many customers who have gotten over 300k with Valvoline conventional. Change interval was every 3K.

adc100 · February 2002

Not sure now. I would also not buy Castrol because of the reason sited by Armtdm.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

And speaking of Havoline, a product of Texaco, the entire company has been bought up by Royal Dutch Shell-- according to my local newspaper. The article stated that the Texaco gasoline name would soon be changed to Shell from coast to coast. The Texaco gasoline "stations" would all change brand name to Shell, or be forced to renegotiate into some other oil company's system. I now wonder if Texaco trade names like Havoline will survive to continue on. I got the idea that all the products would be labelled under Shell trade names exclusively.

rd_volvo · February 2002

Been reading the various posts here on Edmunds and I think they are swaying me to go back to Mobil1. Can't find any Cons on the stuff.

TY

RD

zr2rando · February 2002

I think they are currently living on past reputation, years ago they were rated number one.
Now they are doing things like mentioned above, charging synthetic oil price for a modified petroleum oil, maybe legal I don't know, but when brands like M1 are going the distance to make a better product (and charging for it), Castrol seems to be cashing in on other companies efforts,,,getting on the synthetic bandwagon with a not true synthetic product..
I use Havoline now (petroleum,3k/3mo) I have noticed the Texaco stations advertising that they take Shell cards now,,,,I also am curious what will happen with Tex/Havoline products when the 2 finalize the merge.
I have never heard anything bad about Shell products, but Shell does not have brand awareness that Havoline does either...I see Texaco/Havoline everywhere, I don't see Shell quite as much.
We will see I guess
Good Morning
Rando

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

I think the brand recognition is a regional thing. Shell is a big name in some parts of the country. Many years ago I had occasion to use Shell products to my advantage. They really have had top notch petrobased engine oils in the past, and I see no indication that it is now otherwise. I have already added a couple of cases of Shell motor oil to my garage, welcoming its appearance in my area.

opera_house_wk · February 2002

I wonder if any of you have ever noticed this. I have various places that I work on engines; home, my camp and work. There is often an odd bottle of oil that gets put up on the shelf and forgotten for a couple of years. I just levitate to a new case when changing oil. When I finally use this stored oil, I always find some dark splotches on the bottom of the container. These were brand name unopened bottles. Are these the varnishes that most oils have a percentage of?

zr2rando · February 2002

If you are talking a LONG time, it could be from the bottle itself. I have used Castrol that had some sediment/fine powder in the bottle before, and that was new oil. Wouldn't surprise me that the mfgrs got some crud in the filters every now and then, I have only seen the varnish happen from heat/oxidation, like burning oil in a skillet. Anybody else?
As for the Shell products, I life in North Carolina, maybe we will start seeing more of it around here with time, right now someplaces have it some don't, usually I only see the Rotella-t except for at the stations themselves

silvercoupe · February 2002

Texaco just recently merged with Chevron. Currently trades as CVX (Chevron Texaco Corp.). How does Shell figure into this equation?

wain · February 2002

the question is then, does oil have a shelf life?

opera_house_wk · February 2002

One of the brands was Castrol. Gravity takes its toll on everything. It only takes a year. I had an antique boat that I stored with dirty oil for 10 years. I pulled out the dipstick before moving it and the oil was spotless. 800 miles of towing it later, it was filthy again.

mrdetailer · February 2002

It could be the additives solidifying. Probably not enough to be significant. The oil filter should catch them.

mrdetailer · February 2002

When I had Maxlife added to my Mazda, the woman at the Valvoline Shop had sprained her shoulder. With only one arm she spilled some oil down the back of the engine. I had an inspection 2 weeks later, and where the oil had dripped down to the chassis it was perfectly clean. Areas outside of the spill were the usually slightly greasy with a coating of dust.

I don't know how that information translates to performance inside the engine, but I was impressed.

tboner1965 · February 2002

A couple of different businesses are involved here.

From what I understand, Texaco and Shell have merged on the retail side. In fact, you can use your Texaco credit card at Shell stations and vice-versa.

On the refining side, Texaco and Chevron have merged.

See the following links:

http://www.chevrontexaco.com/news/press/2002/2002-02-13.asp

and

http://www.chevrontexaco.com/about/our_businesses

Hope this helps...

TB

zimonawhim1 · February 2002

I purchased a 92 Mitsubishi Diamante in June of '01 w/79,000 miles on it. Since then I've been using Pennzoil with Fram filters @ every 2500 miles. Now I'm not so sure I want to do that any more(been reading various articles on both brands). My car now has 85k on it and I was considering switching to synthetic or at least a different brand. I was told synthetic can cause potential problem on older high mile engines. Can someone help me out with a recommendation on a good 5w30 and filter brand(got my eye on K&N oil filter...). I used to think oil was oil and filters were filters but now realize it may be more complicated than that. Thanks

armtdm · February 2002

Synthetics would be Mobil 1, Amsoil, RedLine or a blend using Schaeffers
Filters would be Mobil 1, Pure One, Amsoil or Hastings or K&N

Those are old wives tales about synthetics causing problems in higher mileage engines.

mrdetailer · February 2002

2 cars with synthetic blend, and 1 with synthetic runfor a year all had to have valve cover seals replaced between 120--125K. So while it doesn't hurt, it doesn't help seals like Valvoline MaxLife and other higher mileage engine oils.

I converted my Subbie to Synthetic at 100,000 miles and will continue to use it in that car. I have converted a car that doesn't have good seals to Maxlife after they were replaced. Time will tell if that helps in the long run.

guitarzan · February 2002

Bosch makes a good filter.

jerrya · February 2002

I just sent this email to Mobil. Any thoughts/comments?

I own a 1999 Cougar with the 2.5 L V6 and 104,000 miles on it. I have always changed the oil every three months (approx. 7-8000 miles), using conventional Mobil 5W-30. This winter the engine developed a rattle for the first 5 to 10 minutes after a cold start. The noise is audible only under load while accelerating thru the gears above about 2500rpm. There is no noise revving the engine in neutral or while driving at a steady speed.

The last oil change I switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 and the noise disappeared immediately and has not returned. Could I have been hearing piston slap or bearing knock? If so, how did the synthetic oil silence the noise? Incidentally, the engine otherwise runs perfectly and uses no oil between changes.

Your diagnosis and advice would be much appreciated.

Thank You
Jerry Agresti

brorjace · February 2002

rd volvo, The concerns/criticisms of Mobil 1 haven't been made here, they've been made in the Synthetic oil thread also within this Maintenance & Repair forum.

Mr. Detailer, Yes Valvoline is my favorite all-around brand of oil as well. I like their Max-Life oils (expecially when I could get 5 qt. jugs for $5!), I liked (past tense) their Valvoline Synpower when it was a mostly-PAO based formula and I like their All-Climate oil for applications where I want a dino/conventional oil. While Valvoline may not be the best (does anyone know for sure who is?), it is an excellent oil and I've heard fewer complaints about this brand than any other.

Since I am a believer in synthetics, I currently use Red Line oil which is very specialized (mostly racing).

Recently, though, I've found Chevron conventional oil in this area and it is a really high-quality brand. They just don't advertise/market themselves aggressively ... but this keeps their price down. I can get 5W30 and 10W30 Chevron around here for $1.08 per quart which is NOT a sale price. Most other national-brand SL class dino oils are in the $1.60 range. I also use their Delo 400 heavy duty oil for some lawn & garden equipment because its additive package is so strong (this is true of most heavy duty/diesel 15W40s).

--- Bror Jace

brorjace · February 2002

I heard this on the use.net groups and wanted to know if anyone here has heard anything similar. I've heard that 10W40 and thicker oil (15W40, 15W50, 20W50 and the thicker straight weights) do not have reduced levels of zinc and phosphorous. it's just the 10W30 and thinner weights. Anyone else hear anything like this?

--- Bror Jace

mwikle · February 2002

Yeah, I think it is good stuff too!

[Disclaimer: I work for ChevronTexaco Global Lubricants --- but Edmund's is me NOT my employer]. Chevron actually invented/patented much of the Group II base oil technology widely in use today. Chevron Supreme is the ultimate bargain ... I'd put it up against ANY GF-3 "Starburst" oil. Very, very few competitiors are overblends (i.e. trying to reach more than current requirements by a safe margin --- that is just too complex and costly in most cases). Some oils do have inherent "bonus" properties --- IsoSyn(tm) [Group II] stocks impart additional stability to the oil without any price premium for example.

DELO is the leading HDMO (big truck-diesel) oil.

Havoline is one of the most trusted oils in the industry. Many folks would not use anything else.

Most consumer oils involve a lot of Marketing, and perhaps a bit less "beef" than some would imagine --- especially "botique" brands. Most major PCMOs are pretty good in fact, so good that I *personally* believe the vast majority of consumers changing oil and filters on regular basis cannot tell any material, repeatable differences. I thinks oil handling practices, quality control, and brand reputation are more valuable than the underlying chemisty or specs some enthusiast folk take a deep interest in...but that is just me!

Not sure on Zn & P ... in general I'd eduacated guess same addpacks just vis changes.

csandste · February 2002

or bad filters for that matter. Champion Labs makes filters called Bosch (and Deutsch, and Champ, and Car & Driver, and Mobil 1, and SuperTech, and Lee).

zr2rando · February 2002

Also the Walamrt version of AC, but looks like they may be discontinued at Walmart in favor of Supertech
Good morning
Rando

fleetwoodsimca · February 2002

Mass market ACDelco and Motorcraft seem to be disappearing. With all the Champion and Wix choices before us, it's their loss, not ours.

zr2rando · February 2002

Most of these filters we are talking about with the exception of only a few are $3 or less, the "new" version of store brands seems to have actually stepped up to the plate and is winning against the traditional Ford/Chevy man filters . I remember the "old" version of store brands were always obviously the cheapies no question.
I bet the marketing folks for this stuff are a little more computer literate (probably reading this right now...) than the old school folks who assumed that everyone would buy whatever the manufacturer sold (get it cheaper at k/w-mart!!!)because "It was made for that vehicle!" I also think that with the widespread use of synthetic oil and longer change intervals by more home garage mechanics that the filter makers have to take that into consideration much more often now than ever before.
I'm glad that we have more/better choices of what used to be celler level auto products, the existing upper level quality guys are still better but the difference is narrowing, who knows, one of these days Fram may start reading this stuff and jump into the quality game too
see y'all
Rando

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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