Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

bluedevils · February 2003

Your example included many different VARIABLES. With the values you selected, which were mostly reasonable, Mobil 1 comes out as the cheaper oil to use over many thousands of miles. Because there are so many variables (cost to acquire the oil, change interval, extra filter change during oil change interval or not, etc etc etc), a million different presentations can be made to show many different conclusions.

I have no problem with what you presented, but it's not so cut and dried. What about the person who uses Mobil 1 10k miles but wouldn't trust the dino oil more than 3k? Mobil 1 gets even cheaper. What about the person who's willing to use Mobil 1 but will change it at the same 3k interval as the dino? The dino is obviously cheaper in that situation.

I used Mobil 1 in a couple of my vehicles. One of them used dino before and after the Mobil 1 experiment (about 20k miles). I track my fuel economy every tank and noticed no change in the fuel economy figures. I believe synthetic oil can provide better fuel economy in some situations, but most folks who believe that do NOT think it can provide anywhere near the benefit you quoted. 14mpg to 15.5mpg is > 10% improvement. If you are getting that in your vehicle, consider yourself lucky. But don't consider it the norm.

bigorange30 · February 2003

was the norm. That's why I showed the case of the 0.5 mpg savings. Using that 0.5 mpg savings and assuming that is an average for what most people will get (some will get less, some will get more, some will even get zero), then even with a 3k change interval on both oils, the cost is then equal. The gas savings is $396 and the extra mobil1 oil cost is $414 for a difference of $18. Therefore, Chevron Supreme is not cheaper even for the AVERAGE fuel savings and a 3k oil change on both.

Its just not true to say Chevron is cheaper. So, let's talk about the real reason that you use Chevron Supreme.

BTW: I do not change my filter between oil changes.

armtdm · February 2003

You are going out to 7500 mile changes with the Mobil 1. You really need to do at least a couple of oil analysis to confirm it is holding up at that interval. Probably is but you really don't know. Facts are that depending on the driving, climate, engine etc. mobil 1 can not always go 7500 between changes and still protect that well.

bottgers · February 2003

I didn't figure any fuel savings because I don't believe the M1 is going to save any fuel compared to the Chevron. Both figures are based over a 100K mile period (and I'm using your sale price figure for the M1).

At 7500 mile intervals, the M1 would have to changed 13.3 times.

$3.85 x 5 qts x 13.3 = $256.00

Filters @ $5 x 13.3 = $66.50

Total cost for M1 is $322.50

At 5K intervals, the Chevron would have to be changed 20 times.

$1.20 x 5 qts x 20 = $120.00

Filters @ $5 x 20 = $100.00

Total cost for Chevron is $220.00

bluesubie · February 2003

Who knows the cost of producing hydrocracked oils? Just because the base stocks are different, is there a guarantee that production is cheaper?

M1 has been "slick" as well. For years they called conv./synth blends inferior, then produced one of their own.
M1 is a PAO and other basestocks. What's this "other" business? :-)

Just trying to make an informed decision when I switch to synthetic (and something cheaper than Amsoil, Redline, Motul).

-Dennis

bigorange30 · February 2003

If you don't believe there is any mpg savings at all, then the Chevron is a little cheaper. However, for $100 over 100,000 miles, I'll make my bet on the M1 making the engine last longer and I believe the results I have experienced. That is $20/year for me.

I have done oil analysis at 7K and was rather happy for a new engine. I posted the results on the synthetic board and you can view them on this link:

bigorange30 "Synthetic motor oil" Sep 5, 2002 10:43pm

I will do another analysis after 20K like Blackstone suggested since the engine will be broken in at that point. I'm not sure they mean that the oil should be put in after 20K or the oil removed just after 20K is best to analyze so I may do both. I am not seeing a problem with 8k or more based on the results I have gotten so far or seen from others.

bottgers · February 2003

......where people using plain ol' dino are getting 200K+ on their engines without any problems. If you're looking to get 1,000,000 miles out of an engine, I can see where you might have an advantage using M1. However, if you're like most people who keep the same vehicle for less than 200K, what's the point?

bigorange30 · February 2003

Its a question of what % of vehicles will begin to experience costly problems earlier with syntetic vs. dino. I am sure there are some dino engines that have lasted even longer than 200K. It also has alot to do with the make of the car. I would expect a toyota to 300k to 500k and would be afraid to drive a chrysler past 150k. If you believe the lubrication is better, as most here have admitted, its only common sense that it should make the engine last longer. It is very hard to prove it since you have have to run the 2 different oils on the crossection of cars to compare apples to apples. I would think you would also have to run at least 100 each to calculate statistics on whether synthetic makes the engine last longer.

It just comes down to the question of:

Which one gives better lubrication?

I am betting on the mobil1 and $20/year is not a big bet.

greenmax · February 2003

Mobil1 would love to find more "real world" experiences like yours as that would be great advertising for them. Imagine "Wanna save 10% on your gas bill? Use Mobil1!" Unfortunately, that has not been the case with my real world experience. I've used M1 5W-30 and 10W-30 for many years in my cars and trucks and, I've strictly kept a mileage log. In all cases, the mileage differences between M1 and a high quality dino (GTX, Pennzoil, Chevron) have been negligible. I don't think it's a Nissan-specific savings either, 5 of my cars/trucks have been Nissans too. The only reason I see an advantage for using M1 is if you do mostly highway miles and rack up the miles faster than average, say 2000 per month. Even then, I would change the oil filter at 4k as there's no way to get rid of the contaminants even with synthetic oil. The oil filter on your QX4 is so tiny that I wouldn't risk it for longer than that.

mazdany · February 2003

bluesubie - Check out Car and Driver's website and search under "semantics". You should see a Nov 2000 column by auto journalist Patrick Bedard which talks about the Mobil vs Castrol case regarding the use of the word "synthetic". The hydrocracked production costs are indeed less than the molecule by molecule construction of PAO, supposedly by half. If you also check on the google search engine under "hydrocracked oil" other sites comes up regarding the NAD case with Castrol and Mobil.

I assume you are trying to find the proper oil for your Impreza. If you have a WRX, you are a lucky man. I would baby it also. Heck if I had an Impreza RS I'd baby it. Regardless of which synth you choose, Mobil 1 PAO or Castrol, Valvoline, Qstate, et al. you will give your engine much better protection than conventional motor oil. Check a wholesale club like BJ's or Costco and you should definitely find synth for under $4/qt.

armtdm · February 2003

You are going out to 7500 mile changes with the Mobil 1. You really need to do at least a couple of oil analysis to confirm it is holding up at that interval. Probably is but you really don't know. Facts are that depending on the driving, climate, engine etc. mobil 1 can not always go 7500 between changes and still protect that well.

bigorange30 · February 2003

for $3.90/qt. I saw it there last night.

greenmax: I understand your point although I disagree with it. Which do you use and why? They do claim that it improves the engine's efficiency. Also, stop and go driving is very hard on the engine not allowing it to heat up sufficiently. This is a perfect case for the improved lubrication of mobil1. They make that claim specifically on their website.

http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp

bottgers · February 2003

....there wouldn't be a measurable difference in wear between two indentical engines if one used Chevron and the other M1 over a 200K mile period.

bigorange30 · February 2003

and give you 5:1 odds.

bottgers · February 2003

Now, whose gonna conduct the testing?

rtl2 · February 2003

"M1 has been "slick" as well. For years they called conv./synth blends inferior, then produced one of their own.
M1 is a PAO and other basestocks. What's this "other" business? :-)"

If by M1 you mean Mobil 1, it is NOT a synthetic blend. Mobil Drive Clean blend is a conventional basestock with PAO blended in. Mobil 1 is PAO (aka Group IV) except for the carrier oil for the additive package which is an ester. I guess that "this 'other' business" is the ester (aka Group V). Group IV and Group V basestocks are true synthetics.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Post #2175 says it all. Faulty math. I think I see vapor trails of destroyed credibility wafting by... (:o]
rtl2 The presence of (15%?) ester, said to be there as a carrier, is far more than that. It is the full basis of the elevated quality of Mobil 1 over some mineral oils.

bigorange30 · February 2003

just a sign that someone is willing to admit when they make a mistake. It seems better than those who talk about such matters without being willing to put forth real world data. I even made the error in your favor not like I was trying to be deceptive or something. What are you trying to drum up?

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

I guess you are addressing me. I am not one of the folks dedicated to showing either mineral oil or synthetic oil as more economical. I am a self-appointed proctor hoping to influence others to observe reason, logic, and above all, civility.

bigorange30 · February 2003

It would seem that we need a repository for data like this so that we can input from 100's of owners that would take information on engine repairs made at what mileage for what make and model of vehicle and with what oil in service. This could be kind of like bobs oil analyses reports I guess except with repair data and engine life reports. This would taake at least 10 years to collect. I'd being willing to put the data from my engines in.

bigorange30 · February 2003

doesn't sound too civil to me and it makes you appear more pro-dino. Where is your logic or reason?

according2me · February 2003

fleetwoodsimca issss the spokesman for dino/3K changes and makes no bones about it. For the two years I've followed these boards he has been consistent about this.

I appreciate others opinions and he is at the top of the list in sharing his views. That's what this board is about. We don't have to agree with each other, but we just might assimilate some good info along the way.

For me, it's M1 when available at my chosen price.

mike1qaz

bluesubie · February 2003

Yes, I'm familiar with the C&D article and the NAD case. But does Patrick Bedard have proof on the cost of Syntec basestocks, or is it his opinion?
I bought a WRX last August and had an Impreza Outback before that. My wife has an OB Ltd. Not that we like Subaru's or anything.

And yes, I was referring to the Mobil Drive Clean Blend not M1 Tri or SuperSyn. Thanks for the clarification on the "other".

I guess I just love to root for the underdog.

-Dennis

kevin111 · February 2003

Since this board seems to have a great deal of people into the possitive/negative affects of dino vs. synth oil, I figured I would ask this question regarding which I should use:

I have a WRX, and will be putting on approximately 23K miles a year in SoCal. It is mainly highway, with some stop-and-go. Which oil would you recommend for a high-pressure turboed engine, and what oil change intervals? I was assuming that if I used Mobil 1 I could go 5000-7500 miles an oil change. I am currently using a Mobil oil filter

greenmax · February 2003

For a turboed car, no question about it: Mobil1 or equivalent!

armtdm · February 2003

With 23,000 miles a year, yes, a synthetic with extended drains will serve you well, plenty of highway driving. Otherwise you will be changing that dino too often.

As to whether two engines at 200,000 miles and one on dino the other Mobil 1. Well, thousands of anecdotal claims of dino and 3000 mile changes and 200,000 miles. Very few on synthetic (just not that many samples that's all) . If you change your oil every 3000 miles yep, easily no problem. Now, Mobil 1 having less wear at 7500 interval vs dino every 3000. Who cares, at that point you are sick of driving that 10-15 year old piece of junk where the body is falling off around the engine anyway and BOTH are running fine!

Whatever floats your boat!

kevin111 · February 2003

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Thanks for your kind words, according2me. My outlook on these matters runs quite parallel to armtdm as above in #2203.

joatmon · February 2003

Dino oil is good. Syn oil is good. Use a good dino oil unless:
1. Car came from factory with syn, ie. BMW, Vette, MB, etc.
2. Car is noisy on startup, and syn quiets things down.
3. You want to extend drain interval from say 3 or 4K to 7 or 8K.
4. You like putting the "best" into your car.

It should not matter one bit what oil anyone else uses.

/rant

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Happy Motoring,

Jack

bottgers · February 2003

So what's a good dino? Chevron's a good oil, but is it dino or syn? That oughta start some discussion : )

bigorange30 · February 2003

no one refer to Chevron as a syn. Are you trying to incite something here bottgers?

bluesubie · February 2003

You'll definitely be ok with 7k intervals since the owner's manual says 7,500 for normal conditions.

I think I'll put in M1 at my upcoming 7,500 change. :-)

-Dennis

joatmon · February 2003

IMHO, good dinos are Schaeffers, Castrol GTX, Chevron Supreme, Pennzoil, Citgo SuperGard, Phillips 66. I'm sure there are others.

I agree with BigO, most people do not consider $1 - $2 a quart oil to be synthetic.

An example of good synthetics would be whatever your manufacturer recommends, or Mobil 1, RedLine or AMSOil.

Jack

bluedevils · February 2003

Cool car and excellent oil! I wonder if the WRX might be hard on the oil, since it's a high-performance car with a turbocharged engine? If so, you might be pushing it to go 7,000 miles. Mobil 1 is an excellent oil and seems to be pretty long-lasting, but I have seen a few reports of it wearing out at not-too-high intervals over on Bob's board.

bigorange30 · February 2003

What convinced you to use mobil1? What is your objective?

bluedevils · February 2003

I don't think using a synthetic oil, regardless of change interval, will make most engines any more likely to last 200k miles without major mechanical problems vs. 3,000 miles changes with dino oil. I.e., compared with 3k dino changes, I using Mobil 1 would NOT increase my chances of having good success with an engine's longevity. Just my opinion.

according2me · February 2003

In post #2174 I gave a list of some of the current (conventional) dinos. Group2 hydrocracked dino(SL) is good, but is still dino.

Chevron has taken the highroad in not claiming their group2 product to be synth. I congratulate them on this approach. Pennz, Castrol also make no such claim for their low end products.

They all do claim synth for their group3 products, though we all know better.

bottgers · February 2003

....in this forum to show that the hydrocracked dinos are superior to the non hydro dinos. They are close enough to syn for me, and as long as the companies making them still consider them as dinos, we should still be able to get them at dino prices.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

And therein lies the bargain. You get the pragmatic quality of "synthetic" without the expensive process of synthesis. It is a real bargain up to this point. The SL designation has set in motion the new age of superb mineral oils offering qualities formerly only available from expensive synthetics. This is a real winner for the consumer.

according2me · February 2003

if and only if you change @3-5K intervals.

Usually the group3 and group4 products have a more robust additive package for longer change durations.

There's more to it than just base oil. And I do agree, todays SL group2 oils are better than the SJ class. When speaking of conventional dino today, the standard for most manufacturers is group2 hydrocracked oil. There are a few exceptions though.

Speaking of additives, moly has been introduced into quite a few low end products to increase wear protection because of the lessening of the ZDDP package to increase cat-converter longevity. This appears to be a good thing. I believe Schaeffers and Redline were first to recognize the benefits of moly and now the rest of the industry is following their lead, including M1 SS.

So come on Chevron, where is the moly? Probably can be added for 10-20 cents/quart.

mike1qaz

kevin111 · February 2003

The other question is the filter with a syn. Would this only last 3500-5000 miles, or could I get away with 7000 miles if the oil is in good shape?

mazdany · February 2003

I still think Castrol Syntec, et al should lower their retail prices to under $4 bucks. Pass some more of the savings to the consumer instead of just trying to undercut Mobil 1 SS by only $0.25.

according2me · February 2003

But would like it at $3 or lower.

joatmon · February 2003

Schaeffers #703, a blend with 20-25% PAO and a good dose of moly. It's about $2.66 a quart.

Jack

according2me · February 2003

don't you have to buy $250 of product to get that price. And I like my products readily available OTC

mike1qaz

armtdm · February 2003

I have gone many many times to 7,500 mile changes on the same filter and oil, no problem. I am curently testing one at 12,000 miles to see if there is a diff with the same oil etc. at 12,000 miles but a filter at 6000. I have two samples of the fitler at 6000 scenario (12,000 mils oil change) and now will compare the fitler at 12,000.

joatmon · February 2003

if you want to wish, it may take a little effort to fulfill it. Too much talkin and not enough oil changin goin on round here.

bluesubie · February 2003

I did as was suggested and did some research (looking up hyrdrocracked oils online). Some reasons:
-M1 has over 60%(?) of the synth market, so that many people can't be wrong (from a Ward's Automotive news story on "Bob's the oil guy").
-I received Castrol's spec data in the mail and M1's pour point is about 20 deg. F lower (with a lot of days with temps in the teens in NJ this winter, the lower the better). Also M1 has a higher flash point.

-Group IV vs. Group III

One thing though, Syntec's cst at 100C is 10.0 and M1's is 9.8 (both 10W30). The Syntec is thicker at 100, so that should mean better protection, right? I'm not sure these numbers can be directly compared though, since the basestocks are different.

-Dennis

csandste · February 2003

I don't think a higher cst equals better protection. A 10W40 dino would have higher CST than 10W30 Mobil 1. How long they can go without shearing down is the important spec.

Group I oils have some advantages-- detergency for one over Group II. Mobil Drive Clean has bad specs but lots of people have good luck with it. It's a Group I with a strong additive package.

joffficer · February 2003

I bought about 5 5qt jugs of M1 last year $17.88). Years before I've bought Pennzoil, Valvoline synthetics for even less ($10, and $14 for 5qts). This is how I justify (to myself) that it's worth it. Oh yhea.. I also use the Super Tech filters!

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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