Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

malachy72 · February 2003

this is from Bob's board:

This an analysis I had done on my Bud's '01 Monte Carlo. (3.8L) The car is driven like "Aunt Minnie". Almost all short trips of less than 5 miles. He changes the oil every 6 months regardless of the miles.

Schaeffer labs did the report

Miles on Car 7220
Miles on oil 1503

Oil Filter: A/C DELCO Ultra Guard gold

copper.......90
iron.........16
chromium......1
aluminum......3
lead..........4
moly.........79
phospherous.943
zinc........945
magnesium...372
calcium....2770

anti-freez ..0%
Fuel Dilution..positive
H2o...........0.2%
silicon......14
viscosity cst...8.63
sae/iso......20w
sulfur.......16
oxidation.....0
nitration....19

Comments were viscosity reduction due to fuel dilution

Oil s/b changed

bottgers · February 2003

You can blame that one on the General's typical POS cars. I have a feeling any oil would've met the same fate.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

I like the epithet, but I'd assess that the failure of the fabulously popular Mobil 1 came at the hands not of the General, but of the driving pattern. Short hauls let acid build up, and water dilutes the oil. Yuh gotta heat 'em up to keep 'em healthy. That requires longer distance drives.

bigorange30 · February 2003

Being able to survive in lots of short trips is its claim to fame. I agree with bottgers.

malachy72 · February 2003

Engine oil type, drains and intervals are not one size fits all.

This is the more reliable GM V-6 historically.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

The owner of this 3.8L GM engine might want to switch to a good grade of mineral oil, if Mobil 1 can only get him to 1500 miles by the time it fails. On the other hand, the short haul history just might have something to do with the fuel and water contamination noted in the analysis, even if Mobil 1 is noted for short haul survival. It didn't survive this time, now did it?

bigorange30 · February 2003

that there is a broken seal or two that should be fixed. That is what has caused the fuel and water contamination and subsequently the oil to fail.

malachy72 · February 2003

the water contamination is from condensation formed because the car takes short trips and the oil rarely gets hot enough to burn it off. Same thing for fuel dilution. The test is negative for anti-freeze. The car uses no oil in the 6 months.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Spoken like a scientist and automotive engineer. Hey, maybe you are one... >:o]

malachy72 · February 2003

reason they exist are more my line. Just trying to find out a little bit more like most on this board.

I do like it when things make sense though. {:O}

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Water condenses in the crankcase when the engine sits and cools over time. The condensate "contaminates" the oil. When the car is driven, if long enough, and hot enough, the water burns off and the engine is rid of it. If the drive was not long enough for the engine to get thoroughly hot, and the time lapse not long enough to burn off all the water, a problem arises. As the engine cools the water volume now may be great enough to react and form a significant volume of acid. This is a dynamic situation. If the "average" condition of the car usage is short in time and temperature, then the average condition of the engine will be acidic and wet.

malachy72 · February 2003

a ten four there old buddy.

altair4 · March 2003

There was some discussion here a bit ago about the price of Mobil 1. Well, Friday night I bought two six packs of Mobil 1 in the 5w-30 flavor for $23.33 each or $3.89 a quart. It was available also in 10w-30, both in the Super Syn (SL) version. They did not carry the more exotic versions like 0w-30 or 0w-40.

jc1973 · March 2003

the 5 quart jugs are back at walmart for 17.88 each in 5/30 10/30 /15/50

bigorange30 · March 2003

I will go by there tomorrow then. Thanks for the tip jc.

altair4 · March 2003

I hate this...my local Wallie never carries anything I want in the 5 qt containers. I need to complain to the head Wallie at our store!

They only carry Chevron in the 10w-30 flavor, too. What 'bout use folks who need 5w-30? I'd gladly switch my Honda over to Chevron if I could get the right weight.

And there's no (none, nada) 5w-40 that our Passat wants! Bah! Where's the head Wallie?

bluedevils · March 2003

Our local (Detroit area) Wal-Marts have not carried 5W30 Chevron Supreme for probably a year or so. It's disappointing.

Someone pointed out on another board that Target is clearancing its Havoline. Picked up 18 qts of the 10W30 (Texaco-made, not Equilon) for 68 cents a qt over the weekend.

mazdany · March 2003

Are Havoline and Chevron conventional oils identical to each other? Just wondering, since they are both owned by the same company.

knapp3 · March 2003

The tedchnical data sheets and msds reports leave you with the impression that they are...for the Chevron/Texaco oil that is, not the Equilon Havoline stuff however.

krzyss · March 2003

Hi !

VW Passat manual is quite strict:
no more 5W30. I asked my dealer and they use 5W30 and not 5W40. Where do you buy it ?
I tried Walmart, BJ's. Nothing.
Next stop - AutoZone.

Krzys

altair4 · March 2003

Dzien dobry! Jak sie Pani powodzi? Okay, now that I have exhausted my entire Polish language ability...

Valvoline Synpower comes in this grade, and is available at NAPA auto parts stores. If not on the shelf, they can order it...part #966. It's full synthetic.

krzyss · March 2003

altair4

Pani means Lady so your greeting should look like this

Dzien dobry! Jak sie Panu powodzi ?

Pan(u) means Mister.

Krzys

altair4 · March 2003

than my Polish! Also, not being familiar with the gender of many Polish names, I had a 50/50 chance of guessing your gender correctly.

Anyway, good luck with the oil search! I found a supplier on the web who happens to be very close to my home. So, Valvoline 5w-40 will be the next oil in my engine, and I won't have to pay shipping!

bluedevils · March 2003

Last I heard, Valvoline was no longer a 'true' (PAO or ester-based) synthetic.

tboner · March 2003

Shell Rotella T Synthetic. You can even get it at Wal-Mart. I picked up 4 1-gallon jugs for $12.88 each a while back. It is 5W40 and is in the blue container. The conventional Rotella is 15W40, but the synthetic stuff is 5W40.

You typically find it with the farm and truck oils since it designed for the big rigs, but still meets the SJ or SL (I don't recall which one right now) specs for Spark ignition applications.

See it here http://www.rotella.com/rotella_t_synthetic.html

tymetrius · March 2003

i have lincoln ls really nice car what oil should i use?

altair4 · March 2003

I hadn't heard that. Could be true, though, since Castrol can call Syntec full synthetic. Valvoline's website has a FAQ that answers this question:

"Is SynPower a full synthetic? Is SynPower motor oil PAO or ester based? Does it require a special filter?"

"Yes, SynPower is 100% synthetic. Synpower uses a proprietary combination of various types of synthetic base oils to obtain optimum performance.

No, a special oil filter is not required with Synpower."

But you'll notice that it doesn't actually answer the PAO/ester, pointblank.

altair4 · March 2003

What's the owner's manual recommend?

mazdany · March 2003

Altair...I used to think the same way until I checked the MSDS sheets on their website. All their grades show a petroleum substance as their base. No PAO/ester. But for 5W-40 they only mention the additives, no indication of what the base is. Weird. Regardless, it is still a good hydrocracked oil. I use it (5W30). My Protege runs great and has a much easier time starting in cold weather compared to conventional oil.

tymetrius · March 2003

the ls had salvage title and was no manual i think i use walmart1040 oil and filter is that good stuff thanks
ty

altair4 · March 2003

and ask them what the manual recommends. Better yet, stop by a dealer and ask to see a manual (it would be a worthwhile investment for you to purchase it).

You don't say what engine (v6 or v8) or model year you have. My guess, and it's strictly just that, is that 10w-40 is not going to be the recommended oil. Most likely 5w-30, since that's been the trend for awhile. The Walmart filters have their fans here on Edmunds (there's a thread on oil filters here, too). If you want to splurge, you could get a Pure One or Mobil 1 oil filter (it's up to you).

You might want to post on the Lincoln boards here on Edmunds and see if another owner could help you out, for now. Good luck!

Edit - I checked Mobil 1's website - it looks like from 2001 onward, the oil recommendation is actually 5w-20 for both engines! It goes on to say that 5w-30 may be an alternative, but to check with your dealer.

Interestingly,the 2000 model year shows 5w-30 as the recommended oil.

altair4 · March 2003

I'm rethinking my options. May go 0w-40 Mobil 1. I need to do more research. I'd really like a full synthetic with the turbo, but I don't like to pay synth prices for hydrocracked dino juice. What to do, what to do!

Just pulled the product sheet for the Synpower from the web...it says it "is a premium fully synthetic motor oil that is formulated with the highest quality synthetic base oils and enhanced with the most advanced additive technology..."

Maybe I'm dropping them a question on their website for clarification. Here's the text of my question:

I'm sorry to bother you with this question, but the answer is not really clear to me in you FAQ.

The FAQ has this question:
"Is SynPower a full synthetic? Is SynPower motor oil PAO or ester based?

Yes, SynPower is 100% synthetic. Synpower uses a proprietary combination of various types of synthetic base oils to obtain optimum performance."

Castrol Syntec has been cleared to advertise that it is synthetic, yet apparently isn't PAO or ester based.

So I'm looking for a "Yes" or "No" answer: Is Synpower (specifically in the 5w-40 formulation)PAO or ester based?

Thanks for your time!

I'll post any replies that I receive.

adc100 · March 2003

Also the RotellaT Synthetic is no longer available at Wally World (for $13). It's now like $22 I have checked 6 Wallyworlds.

mazdany · March 2003

I am 99% sure that the 5W-40 is hydrocracked dino juice. All of their other grades are hydrocracked. I doubt they would manufacture a PAO just for 5W-40. I checked all the MSDS sheets for most of the easily available retail brands and Mobil 1 is the only PAO synthetic oil out there. I'll be trying their 10W-30 formula on my next oil change. And remember to also check the MSDS sheet as well as the product sheet when you do your research.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Valvoline now is shipping 5W-20, and I saw it for sale at a local Checker Auto. NAPA has it as well.

acelink · March 2003

I have purchased a '00 XG (3.0-liter) with 93,750 hard miles on it. When I opened the oil cap, the underside of it has some sort of buildup residue similar to what you get when you burn a meat over the grill too long. As expected, it smells burnt as well. When I peeked into the engine, it looks like everything has discolored into reddish or brownish color. Anyone explain to me what might have happened? And what I can do about it? Thanks in advance.

knapp3 · March 2003

Hard to say. But before you throw away the used oil when you change it, I'd send in a sample to Blackstone for an oil analysis.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

While I do not know what an "XG" is, I would waste no time doing an oil and filter change, presuming you have no intention of returning the vehicle. If you have thoughts of getting a "refund" you might want to leave it as is.

joe3891 · March 2003

oil sold at Walmart,I was wondering if anyone out there knows who supplies their oil.

pluto5 · March 2003

The consensus seems to be that it comes from a refinery in Louisiana which is now owned by Penzoil/Quaker State, but that it is inferior to the pure base stock used in Pennzoil. However, Wal-Mart changes suppliers without notice so you can never be sure...I figure that if their pasta is good enough for me their oil should be good enough for my six to nine yr. old cars, but I'm using Penzoil in my new car! It costs about $2 more/jug!

joe3891 · March 2003

Thanks for the information.I use Super Tech in my lawn mower an was thinking 5w-30 for my car,for $10 a case its a good deal.With name brand oils you are paying for advertising which adds no quality to the oil.I would assume if it had the proper usage codes it should be ok to use.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Here's something to consider: I am advised by a friend who works for NAPA that Valvoline supplies the NAPA brand of oil. It sells around my area for $1.19 as the full retail per quart. I am further advised that the oil in the NAPA containers is identical to Valvoline brand motor oil, with only a difference in dye coloration. The bottom line is that you can run top grade Valvoline oil for a lesser price.

csandste · March 2003

SuperTech is as stated a PZ subsidiary. Guess is that it will be switched over to Shell's refineries since extra capacity is there since Texaco was moved to Chevron. I buy it because I get an $11.84 change using bottled oil (who knows what's in those bulk tanks?)-- I think it's OK but not as good as Pennzoil or Chevron/Havoline. Probably every bit as good as Shell/Havoline (Equilon) that might constitute future Wal-Mart production.

Valvoline makes a lot of private label oil and as far as I know all is identical to the name brand stuff. I think Valvoline is inferior to top oils like Pennzoil or Chevron. Reports @ Bobistheoilguy seem to indicate that it shears down rather quickly. Unlike SuperTech it lacks Moly, but that trait is shared by some good oils like Chevron.

I think that SuperTech, Valvoline and Shell (probably future ST oils) all constitute adequate but hardly outstanding oils. I think that Valvoline is probably inferior to the other big 3 dino sellers-- Pennzoil (best), Quaker State or Castrol.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

When the current run of Equilon Havoline is gone, there will be no more. Global Lubricants (a division of Chevron) is the current producer of Havoline. I go out of my way to avoid the old stuff, knowing that Chevron is currently #1 in mineral based oil, and that Havoline is now a second brand of the oil in the Chevron jugs. I hold a bias favoring oils from the Texas and Oklahoma companies, versus the Pennsylvania products. In fact, I shy away from Pennzoil and Quaker State, and only use them under reservation.
I consider Valvoline to be a premium brand among the best mineral oils on the market, and rate it equal to Castrol, just below Chevron/Havoline. I also have great respect for Shell oil, and use it as an alternative. The undercurrent here is price. I always look for what I consider to be one of the acceptable brands, and I currently expect to buy it under a dollar a quart (after rebates). If this was on a chart, I'd be buying the "optimal" product, where the variables are price, versus status of brand in my eyes.

according2me · March 2003

but if your bias dissuades you from using Pennzoil(since Purebase), you are eliminating one of the better brews of the group2 hydrocracked dino oils.

They also have added some moly to their mix since "SL" rated oils started to ship.

Chevron has yet to add moly to their dino (group2) product according to used oil analysis at Bob's site, but I assume their ZDDP package may have stayed pretty robust. Their product seems to hold up well to 4K miles.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Considering all the variance, and differences of opinion, the bottom line appears to be: Choose a mineral oil from a reputable company and change it, and the filter, frequently enough that no one will tell you that you're hurting your engine. I prefer 3K, with some tolerance for going up to 4K.
Back in the spring of 1993 the Ford dealer, from whom I bought my brand new 93 Explorer, told me that Ford Corporation did not approve of Pennzoil motor oil for use in Ford Explorers.

bottgers · March 2003

....Pennziol's dino 5W-20 contains 70% group III base stock. Is this actually true?

according2me · March 2003

I haven't read of it being that high a percentage.
If you have a source, please post it. Otherwise, you could ask this question on Bobistheoilguy.com

They used to have a Pennz rep over there that was willing to give specs. I forget his username.

bottgers · March 2003

That's where I read it, and I think it was the Pennz rep who posted it.

deminin · March 2003

Does anyone have any thoughts pro/con about the oil blends the oil companies are putting out for cars with over 75K miles?? Is there some value in these oils, or are they just another marketing ploy? I usually don't keep a car/truck for much over 50K miles, but I have a good '97 Dakota V8 4WD pickup that has been flawless, and is approaching 60K. I might just hang on to this one for awhile, and if there is anything that will enhance its reliability as it ages, I am willing to give it a try. So far, the truck has had a steady diet of Pennzoil 10W30 every 3K.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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