Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

snarks · May 2004

Honda's at least have a special fill and you should wait 5k miles before changing. Its your car, I don't think there is a diffinitive answer and no dealer will know unless a study has been published. "Experience" does not count in this situation. Oil is incredibly improved over old including plain old dino oil and engines and manufacturing engines is much better. The likely case anyway is that most people will part with a car before the engine wears out or suffers a major oil related failure (unless oil is neglected).

For what its worth I changed my oil on my 210k car first a 4k miles and every 4k thereafter and never had the engine repaired.

tntitan · May 2004

Honda's original fill has a lot of moly in it. I changed mine after 1,500 miles and used an oil with a lot of moly in it so I don't believe I had anything to lose and got rid of a lot of breakin comtaminants. Pennzoil 5W-20 and Chevron 5W-20 both have a lot of Moly and both have a lot of good UOA's posted at www.bobistheoilguy.com

dustyk · May 2004

Doit,

>>>Two old schoolers said change it early in case there is any "casting sand" in the engine<<<

Very, very, doubtful. First, most engine blocks are washed before maching operations to rid the casting of any sand. Although possible, casting sand would more likely be found in the water jackets, not on the outside surfaces of the block. In addition, its much more likely to find shavings from machining operations. If casting sand were in the oil system, you wouldn't have to worry about changing oil. 120 micron size particles are already lodged somewhere in an oil gallery causing a restriction that will show up later in the engine's life.

>>>One said new technology (engine and oil) make the early change rule obsolete ......The fourth said "follow the manual" ie. change at the recommended interval (3 or 6 K)......Could an early change be somehow detrimental, assuming you don't have break in oil?<<<

Some manufacturers use a 0W-30 or a speciality blend that is roughly eqivalent to 0W-20. Others ship a new engine with a conventional quality 5W-30 non-synthetic. The trend in recent years has been to use off-the-shelf recipes in a low viscosity blend without any additional additives included.

The recommendation to change the factory motor oil at the first regular schedule maintenance is the best advice, in my opinion.

As to causing damage by changing it prematurely, I don't think so. I would recommend not using a synthetic blend or full synthetic oil until after the engine has been run-in (broken in) for a while. This varies depending on manufacturer. Chrysler's V8s are generally longer break-in motors, so I'd use conventional motor oil for at least 10,000 miles. If it's a 4.7 motor, 15,000 or more.

Best regards,
Dusty

doitmyself · May 2004

Thanks for the opinions. For better or worse, I went ahead and changed the oil at 1K. I was shocked at the appearance of this oil. Held up to the sunlight, there was a large amount of very tiny, silvery "metalflakes" in the oil. Very similar to old oil in a lawn mower engine.

Are these wear metals? Why didn't the filter catch them?

Back to mixed opinions - some say it's best to get this stuff out of there, others say this "roughage" is what helps break in ("sand paper")the rough edges/fit.

snarks · May 2004

If you are happy you changeed it out then it was the right choice. You want to discuss this real oil nuts!? try http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

armtdm · May 2004

Are these wear metals? Why didn't the filter catch them?

Yes, they are. As to the filter, my experience over the past few years places filters in the same category as appendix, useless appendages on modern engines for catastrophic purposes only. They filter out almost nothing, today, the oil does all the work.

ocean_shipper · May 2004

Earlier, I posted this message on another board, but realize that this might be the better place to seek assistance.

I have two 2004 Camry's and am considering using synth oil. Anyone have any experience with synth oils in Toyota's and would you recommend it?

If so, is there any particular brand that I should consider?

I live in the Washington, DC area.

Thanks!

snarks · May 2004

The only off the shelf brand I would recommend is Mobil 1. The reason is that a ruling occured that an oil between regular (dino) and true Synthetic (Mobil 1 currently) can be called synthetic. These inbetween ones don't hold up quite as well but better than dino however there is no price difference between Mobil 1 and the others (ie Pennzoil, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State etc).

The other synthetic brands that are bit harder to find but excellent are Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple. The made in Germany Castrol Syntec is very good but hard to find (bottle must say Made in Germany) otherwise made in USA stuff is like the other mentioned. I found all this info on www.bobistheoilguy.com website.

armtdm · May 2004

Been using Amsoil synthetic in my 92 V6 since 1000 miles, also synthetic ATF in the tranny and differential, Toyota engines, in a few model years have been brutal on oil, and either you change it very often with dino, 3000 miles or go 5-7500 with synthetic. I go 7500 with my camry, now 165,000 miles.

csandste · May 2004

However, Quaker State, like Mobil, is group IV.

snarks · May 2004

If you read the site www.bobistheoilguy.com you'll see that Group III oils don't hold up past 5k-6k while Group IV's last anywhere from 7.5k-10k. This is based on Used Oil Analysis of forum poster's cars. Conventional oils seem to last at the very least 3k-5k fine. It depends on driving conditions, auto, and many factors of course.

wtd44 · May 2004

Enough on "Bob..."
Give Chevron Supreme a try, or their recent acquisition, Havoline. These products are produced by a very accurate and patented process of reducing large mineral oil molecules down to uniform and properly sized molecules of motor oil. "True" synthetics by definition are produced by taking small molecules and attaching them together into uniform and properly sized molecules of motor oil.
Note that the end result in each process is essentially the same.

pulgo · May 2004

What proof do you have that Quaker State is group IV?

csandste · May 2004

I based this on comments on Bob's board, plus (an uneducated) reading of Quaker's MSDS sheets. Turns out they changed to a group III formula and didn't change their data sheets.

mudflat · May 2004

Going under the assumption that lower viscosity oil has less of a negative environmental impact when it's disposed of improperly than higher viscosity oil, does anybody know of any studies that deal with the subject and how it has influenced the re-design of the product separate from the desire to achieve improved energy efficiency?

morgan4 · July 2004

Just bought an 04 doublecab....book calls for oil changes at 5000 miles....

Here are my questions....should a guy still stick to 3000 or go with the book every 5000 miles and what brand of oil is the Toyota brand? I have always used Castrol 5w30 on my other Toyota's.

pisces01 · July 2004

i have a 94 mercury cougar, my gauge dropped down low last week , gauges light came on. so i put 3 quarts of penzoil 5-30 in the tank. the light hasn't come on again, but the oil gauge is still low and not in the middle.

this morning when i went to Walmart to get it checked, the service tech said he wouldn't be responsible if the oil pump went out to take it to a mechanic for them to check it out since Walmart only do oil changes and not repairs if something is wrong.

i did have some oil splatters about 2 months ago and used Stop Leak liquid, there was a strong oil smell through the car for almost a month. i was told about that time i needed the gaskets to be replaced which would be about $400.00 since they would have to take the whole engine down, replace oil, etc, etc.

i need some suggestions so when i go to the mechanic i have an idea and average price to pay.

thanks

Mr_Shiftright · August 2004

Couple things here:

First, letting the oil drop 3 quarts is really asking for trouble. So I would suggest that you upgrade your under-hood time, so that you are checking the dipstick far more often than you do now. In other words, a constructive habit-change. Hopefully, you haven't already got a damaged engine. Well, lots of noise and smoke and low oil pressure would be an indicator.

Secondly, the use of stop leak for oil leaks is another bad idea, and probably made the problem even worse. Well, now you know. Don't do that again, okay?

Third of all, I doubt that anyone could "drop your engine" for $400, nor should they have to. What a good shop can do is add a tracing element to your oil and then run your engine and shine a "black light" on it to see where the oil is leaking. In that way, they can determine where the oil is coming from and how much it would cost to repair.

Oil leaks are often tough to find, since the oil sprays all over the place as you drive. You might go to someone who knows cougars and their (bad) habits regarding oil leaks. Some cars leak specifically from certain known areas.

So to summarize:

1. check your oil a lot and NEVER let it run down.

2. Never use stop leak for oil leaks

3. Go to a shop that has the tools for oil leak detection, and get a detailed estimate. No guessing allowed!

Good luck with this.

wtd44 · August 2004

Not to be a killjoy here, but a 10 year old Mercury Cougar may not be "worth" putting more than a certain amount of money into its repair. I'd suggest you decide on the upper limit to repairs versus other alternatives such as replacement.

isellhondas · August 2004

I wonder how many miles this car has?

It kinda sounds like a bit of neglect here. If a car is THREE QUARTS low, it's in trouble.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2004

Well it depends on how long and how fast and under what stress this engine operated with low oil.

You can actually drain out all your oil and idle the engine for a while. I have seen engines purposely destroyed in wrecking yards by draining the oil and then laying a brick on the gas pedal. You'd be amazed how long they will run like that.

They're tougher than you think---which is why you really have to be hell bent on destruction to blow one up these days.

joe3891 · August 2004

My daughter run a GMC 305 ci 3qts low, a couple of changes of oil to get the sludge out and it is still going today, that was 2 yrs ago. Had no symptoms just decided to check the oil.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2004

It would be nice to think that meticulous maintenance pays off in engine life but sometimes I do wonder. Probably it would be best to say that good maintenance give you a *quality* of life rather than all that many extra miles of use. Especially American V-8s, they seem to be able to stagger and stumble gasping for breath for years and years.

wtd44 · August 2004

You've got to hold the faith, and do the maintenance... >;^]

brendella · August 2004

Try using a low cost engine flush as directed then switch to Mobil High Mileage oil in the appropriate weight for at least 4 intervals and report back .

The Gunk , NAPA and other 2 dollar a quart flushes work as well as any of them .

bottgers · September 2004

Your question could be addressed by a mile long explination of how different driving conditions affect every type of oil differently, and oil change intervals should be determined by using oil analysis results, etc., but I'm not gonna go there. I've read many, many discussions about oil in several different forums, and I'll give my Reader's Digest version of an explination. If you like changing your oil every 3K miles and would to continue to do so, you can use the cheapest store brand dino oils (as long as they meet the most current standards) and filters you can find and you'll more than likely never have any oil related problems with your engine. If you'd like to extend that change interval out to around 5K-6K, you'll need to step up to a better dino oil and filter. I can personally vouch for Chevron and Havoline for being good for this interval, and I'm sure there are others. I can also vouch for Puralator PureOne filters being good for this interval as well. If you'd like to extend your intervals out to 10K or more, you'll have to step up to some very good synthetics (like Mobil 1) and filters (like Mobil 1 as well). Of course these products are quite a bit more expensive, but they're well worth it if you're looking to go the distance. If you'd like to see how I arrived at these conclusions, you can find all this info in detail in this forum. www.bobistheoilguy.com. Good luck and I hope this helps.

wtd44 · September 2004

I'll add an endorsement to that Havoline and Chevron recommendation, bottgers. Champion, Purolator, Wix-- all make high quality filters in various brand names.

armtdm · September 2004

Your comments are right on the money! With most people hooked on the 3000 mile oil change it is difficult to move anyone to spend more money for other products that they perceive as having no value.

bottgers · September 2004

The 3K mile change interval is very conservative IMO. If you're looking to get 250K-300K out of an engine, or you're not sure how severe you engine is on your oil, it's a good way to go. Since I change my own oil and filter and I'm lazy, I prefer to go 5K-6K between changes. I'm too cheap to go the full synthetic route.

stever · October 2004

Did anyone ever come up with the reason for the original 3,000 mile interval recommendation? Is the old WWI motor pool story still the first supposed occurrence of the recommendation?

Steve, (not the) Host
(regular oil, 7,500 interval)

corvette · October 2004

Here's a link to a 1950 Mercury owner's manual with a 2,000 mile recommendation. I think it's just an arbitrary guideline (like 3,000 or 7,500 or ...).

isellhondas · October 2004

Tune up every 5000 miles. Clean and adjust points and spark plugs!

I even remember the spark plug cleaning machines!

wtd44 · October 2004

Great memories! As a teenager, I used to take my car and motorcycle sparkplugs over to the neighborhood Sinclair station, where the kindly proprietor allowed us to use his "sandblaster" sparkplug cleaner. We bought gas and oil, etc., from his place, so it was symbiotic. I suspect he gave up a lot more to the relationship than we did. To this day, I have a "special" feeling toward Sinclair.

bluedevils · October 2004

Any thoughts no how hard this engine is on oil? Is it a good candidate for synthetic? It's a 200HP / 220LB-FT 3.5L OHV pushrod V6. Very fuel efficient and peppy in the Chevy Malibu, but still an old-school design.

yurakm · October 2004

The new 3.5l engine have the same general design as the 2.8l, 3.1l, and 3.4l GM V-6s. The engines have a long history. The 2.8l engine was produced in 1980-ths; the 3.1l during most of 1990-ths and early 2000-ths, e.g. for previous Malibus, and is still available with 2005 Buick Century. The 3.4l appeared in late 1990-th in GM minivans, from 2000 is used with base Impala.

The engines are not hard on oil. Low revs, standard working temperature, no turbo. Most probably, the same with new 3.5l. However, I am using synthetic with my 98 Malibu (3.1l engine) for several years. With synthetic I am changing oil every 6 months; with natural oil would do it every 3 months. Had no problem with the oil; probably would not have with natural oil too.

mikewinlds · November 2004

All the times I've changed the oil in my car is when it is cool, usually I leave the car overnight to cool off, then it the morning back it out into my driveway, jack it up, and change the oil.

The thought of hot oil burning my hand, arms, and whatever else doesn't fancy me too much. I've been under the car when it was hot before, and the oil reservoir tank or whatever you call it was really hot; I didn't dare change out the oil.

Are there any problems with changing the oil when it is cool? And how hot is the oil when the engine is warmed up, if you could be able to compare it with something? I've never been able to change the oil without getting some on me: the oil seems to shoot out right when I get the oil drain plug off, and it leaks out real fast when I take off the oil filter, so I don't see a way around not getting some oil on me.

altair4 · November 2004

Hot oil flows better than cold, so it will frain faster. I'm not sure what other reasons there might be for draining the engine when hot.

Personally, I usually take a short ride to the get the coolant up to normal temp, and then do the oil change. The oil itself is warm to very warm, but not hot. It definitely flows out quickly. The drain plug is very warm to the touch, but not so hot that I can't hold it. I gently unscrew the drain plug from the sump. As it's nearing the final threads, I sort of twist it and pull it upward simultaneously. At most, I get a little oil on my hand - nothing serious.

Frankly, I think you might be a candidate for one of the oil plug drains like the type made by either Fumoto ( http://www.fumotovalve.com/ ) or Fram ( http://www.fram.com/ - then click on Sure Drain). Or possibly one of the vacuum extractors that work from the top. Failing that, Jiffy Lube...

mikewinlds · November 2004

I've seen those quick-drain oil plugs at Auto Zone; it was a little different however. You would thread on this adapter where the oil drain plug would be, and then whenever you wanted to drain your oil, you would screw on another contraption to that adapter and all the oil would drain out. (Just checked out the Fram website; that was what I was looking at at Auto-Zone).

Anyway, when I was talking about hot, I thought the oil would be hot enough to burn you where you'd have to go to the hospital or something, you know like you always see on TV about burn victims and they're always talking about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree burns or whatnot.

roper2 · November 2004

I have a fram oil change tube on my oil pan and it works great. no mess

yurakm · November 2004

Burns:

1 degree - red skin.

2 degree - blisters.

3 degree - deep necrosis of the skin.

4 degree - carbonization.

Equally important is how big is the burn (as percent of the whole body area). Smaller burns (10% and less) of the 1 and 2 degree do not require hospitalization.

mikewinlds · November 2004

Yurakm,

Does hot oil fall under any of those burn categories? Or would it be like really, really hot water, where it burns when you first run your hand under it, but after a while you get used to it?

armtdm · November 2004

IN addition to hot oil flowing better the wear particles do not have a chance to settle to the bottom where they may not drain out, hot they are still in suspension. Also, a slightly higher quality drain valve then Fram (almost always cheap (por quality) , especially their filters) is the Fumoto valve, solid brass and build like a tank. I am currently using 5 of them, great for draining and sampling

mikewinlds · November 2004

Would wearing latex gloves (he yellow kind that are used for washing dishes and such) help any?

bluedevils · November 2004

I've found this does help. The oil is typically warm to very warm when I change it out, and a fairly thick pair of household vinyl/latex gloves seems to prevent my hands from feeling the full heat of the oil. Plus it keeps my hands cleaner - I tend to be somewhat messy when changing the oil.

mikewinlds · November 2004

What is a good way to clean your tools that have oil and grease on them? How about your hands?

wtd44 · November 2004

Permatex Hand Cleaner, or other brand of similar cleaner is very good. I like the orange kind with pumice in it.

mikewinlds · November 2004

There's so many I don't know what it all means. There's like 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30, 10W-40, etc. I've just been getting 10W-30 oil for my car. Also any reasons to use synthetic oil rather than conventional oil? Would it make changing your oil easier?

micweb · November 2004

Depends on what kind of car, how good you are about doing 3,000 mile oil changes (and not letting it slip to 7,000 miles, for example), what the weather is like were you live (cold winters, hot summers, for example), how you drive. Synthetics never hurt, but they are more expensive. You can get some of that money back by stretching the drain interval, but I don't like to go beyond 5,000 miles (still saves over 3,000 mile changes). Let us know more about your car, driving, and location.

bluedevils · November 2004

Get $14 off by mail when you buy 5 quarts of Valvoline MaxLife motor oil. Valid thru 12/31/2004.

http://www.valvoline.com/qrz591dpoyu/step1.asp?rc=30C4A61BDD&- ec=F1A23D183D&ebay=true&coaid=213A19CE13EE

wtd44 · November 2004

Check your owners manual and follow the recommendations there. You can vary from that after you have achieved some basic knowledge in this area of vehicle maintenance.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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