Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

isellhondas · May 2005

Advise? Just leave it alone and keep a close eye on your oil level.

At 170,000 miles it's going to use/leak some oil as it nears the end of it's life.

armtdm · May 2005

Well, I have the ole 3.8 L 3800 pushrod V6 and it is easy on oil. However, I consistently go 12,000 miles between changes using synthetic and the oil analysis comes back fine. Sure, I could use petroleum and go with the monitor or change at 6000 etc. but based upon my experience with the engine and oil I know that I can easily go 12,000 and still be fine with synthetic, Whatever let's you sleep at night.

I also have a Toyota V6 that just beats the crap out of the same oil at 7500 miles. So much is engine design, driving habits, climate etc. etc

highroller · May 2005

Hi, its been awhile since ive been in this post. For those who remembered that i replaced the pcv valve and cleaned the engine, there wasnt a leak until about three weeks ago. So the issue on my oil leak has come back. I guess i will be saving money to replace the valve cover gaskets,rear main seals in the near future. The car still runs good right now by the way and thanks for all the advices guys.

dhoff · May 2005

I just bought a new 05 Honda Accord 4 cylinder. As you are all I'm sure aware, Honda recommends API certified 5W20 oil. That's what I plan on using when I get around to changing it.

I'm curious though, the manual does not say what specific API certification should be used. I've done some looking on the shelves at the big box store, and I've found that you can get either API service SL or SM in a conventional, name brand oil. I'm not sure which I should use, or if I should even worry about it.

There were at least 3 brands available in 5W20, Castrol, Penzoil & Quaker State. Any thoughts on which might be best? I've used Castrol part-synthetic in the last new vehicle I bought with seeming success. I'd use it in the Honda but it seems like it's not available in 5W20, in fact it seems to be getting harder to find in general.

Dave

armtdm · May 2005

An excellent 5W20, good blend of synthetic. Next woudl be Penzoil, other two would not be my choices

highroller · May 2005

I would use Castrol for conventional oils and Mobil 1 for synthetic oils.

edwardn1 · May 2005

...posted on a Yamaha motorcycle site. Sorry but I don't have the computer skills to post the connection links or whatever its called to get you there. I too would like to see him on this board. Seems that someone at bobs board had a vendetta against GM quality and took it out on the engineer, made it a personal attack, basically saying that since there are reliability issues the engineer was a fool. What a shame. Appears that same person blew the engineer off of the board as he disappeared after that discourse. Once again, how can we welcome him to this board, as the oil discussion can use some new blood.

Kirstie_H · May 2005

edwardn1, there's really no way unless we can somehow locate this person by e-mail. If you want to send me an e-mail with the name of the motorcycle site and his user ID, I can try to track him down, but that's about it!

My e-mail is in my profile. (good to see you back posting with us!)

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

flytedhy · May 2005

Here's the short story. I have a 05 Hyundai Tuscon 2.0L 4-cyl. Owners manual says if temps remain above 32F use 5 or 10w30. Hyundai service website says if temps will top 100F, and they certainly will alot, use 10w30 or 10w40. There is a difference between the owners manual and the service manual. I called both the dealer and the Hyundai 800 number and both are generally grey on why, but say use 10w30. They don't know why there is a difference. I've also posted on Tuscon forum, but the oil forum seemed better suited for this question. This might appear like a non-issue, but with a small, high revving, 4.2 qt capacity engine in what at times will be 110+F temps, I'd like to use the correct oil.

Thanks

csandste · May 2005

I initially used 10w30 oil for 9 months a year with 5w30 in the winter. After I switched from Super Tech to Pennzoil I felt comfortable enough that it wouldn't shear down to go to 5w30 for 9 months a year and 10w30 for the three summer months.

yurakm · May 2005

If you do not mind spending something like extra $20 per year, you can use synthetic oil and not care more about cold winter nor hot summer. Mobil 1 oil is available in 5 qt jigs at Wal Mart for about $20. This is less expensive than usual 1 qt bottles.

wtd44 · May 2005

In my area, Valvoline 5W-20 is readily available, and the first case of it I bought had an interesting statement on it. It said the formula was specifically for Ford, Mazda, and Honda vehicles that called for that weight of oil. All NAPA stores also sell a 5W-20 oil from the very same oil company. I use both in my 2002 Mountaineer and 2005 Escape.

highroller · May 2005

If you dont mind me asking, what type of motor oil do you use? If you use conventional oil, I would use 10W-30 when temps. are about 80 above and 5W-30 79 and below. That's just my opinion. With synthetic oil, it wouldn't matter, I would just use 5W-30 with synthetic. But since i have a much older high mileage engine i use synthetic 10W-30. And remember not to overfill when changing oil.

tntitan · May 2005

What makes you think that the synthetic 5W-30 would be okay when the dino 5W-30 would not be okay?

flytedhy · May 2005

This is my first oil change on this vehicle. There has got to be a reason why the service manual says 10w40 when 100+F. Either the owners manual is wrong or the service manual is? I'll be doing some light off-roading in 110+F. Wish I could get a straight answer out of Hyundai. I'll be covered by using whats listed in the owners manual(10w30), but that won't help much if it ends up damaging the engine even under warranty.

micweb · May 2005

You said:

There has got to be a reason why the service manual says 10w40 when 100+F. Either the owners manual is wrong or the service manual is? I'll be doing some light off-roading in 110+F. Wish I could get a straight answer out of Hyundai. I'll be covered by using whats listed in the owners manual(10w30)

Possibly the lighter weight is specified in the US owner's manual since our prevailing temps are lower than 100. If the temps are higher, they want the dealers to use thicker oil. That's just because auto cooling systems are a little imprecise and don't work that well in stop and go traffic or in consistenly high temps; the oil will heat up and thin a little.

Consider using 0-40, Mobil 1, designed for European cars, it will flow well at low temps and has a little thicker viscosity than 30W (it is a "thin" 40). If want a still thicker oil, the Mobil 1 Truck and SUV oil is more a true 40.

Be happy Hyundai is honest about the engineering requirements for their engines. In the search for higher fuel mileage, many companies gloss over these fine points. The reason Hyundai doesn't make the point in their owners manual is to keep customers from thinking that if 40 is ok, they'll run it all the time. That's not a good idea. It doesn't flow as well as 30 wt oil under sub 100 degree temps, and it does use more fuel.

csandste · May 2005

they're really not that fussy. Think they called for SF or SG oil in my 2001. I'd think any modern SM rated 10w30 would be more than adequate. The local Hyundai dealer uses 5w30 Castrol (not as good an oil as Pennzoil but still adequate) all year long.

Still don't trust 10w40 oils, although I'm sure they're more stable than 25 years ago when they were popular. Still too many viscosity improvers to break down.

sig2 · May 2005

My son has a 2002, Ford Diesel, Truck, 4X4 and started using the Syn. Rotella and his MPG has improved 25%. I am sure any Syn would do the same. I just changed the Oil in my Dodge Diesel yesterday and I could not make myself use the Syn. Stuff in my 91 Ram. What do youall think age difference? Do you think this Syn. is proven its self? I have a friend who has a 1,000,000 miles on a Cummings diesel and uses 15W40, He has an Escort Service for Wide Loads.

I would be interested in your feed back thanks in advance.

sig

yurakm · May 2005

I am a big fan of synthetic oil. For the last 5 years I am using only Mobil 1 with our family cars. Synthetic works better when it is cold and hot. It works better under hard driving conditions, like idling, towing, or driving in hilly/mountain terrains. And it is more stable. Either can be changed less often, or provides better protection to engine during the last month before oil change.

However, no matter how much as I would like it, I doubt in even 1-2% improvement in MPG due to synthetic, not to mention 25% gain. With such fuel consumption very few rational persons will use natural oil, even if government would not ban it.

Probably, your son did a major tune-up. Do not know about diesel, but once upon a time our fuel consumption decreased, no kidding, almost by half after engine tune-up and replacing plugs. It was our first car. We bought it used, 9 year old, with 105k miles, and, probably, it never had a major service.

Better tire pressure also improves fuel consumption. Visibly, but not by 25%.

johnofalltrade · May 2005

new 2005 xl7. speedo is consistently 6 to 8 kph low compared to gps and my other vehicle. my wife has a heavy foot already, this will put her over the allowable edge. Suzuki says this is normal, right,.... anyone else with this problem? :confuse:

skyking1 · June 2005

I read earlier in the thread that Exxon/Mobile 5W20 Superflo was the oil used by honda for OEM. it is readily available at autozone. I think I'll go with that on our new Pilot, and change it at half interval, 3750 miles. Thoughts?

wtd44 · June 2005

I like your plan to change oil and filters early. The Exxon Mobile sounds like a good choice. Is it ILSAC 3 rated?

micweb · June 2005

Exxon/Mobile 5W20 is an excellent oil and 3,750 miles is certainly conservative. My own strategy on our 2005 CR-V is to use Mobil 1 (full synthetic) 5W-20 at 5,000 mile intervals. That is a little longer than the interval you are proposing, but I am using fully synthetic, plus Honda says 10,000 is ok on our vehicle (but I'd worry too much on such a long interval even with full synthetic).

The reason I like full synthetic is that it is more resistant to thermal breakdown, sludging, which starts on day one, it isn't a matter of how fresh or old your oil is. Full synthetic may also be more resistant to breakdown in viscoscity (thinning out) due to shearing of the viscoscity extenders which must be used in conventional motor oils - synthetic oils have more uniform molecule sizes and tend to need less in the way of viscoscity extenders, sometimes not requiring any if the viscoscity range isn't too great.

There is the extra cost to consider using full synthetic (it's at least $4.50 per quart at Wal-Mart vs. about $1.80 for most conventional 5-20 oils), but I think the cost of the oil is the least expensive factor in the total maintenance "package." I usually forego the "extra" dealer services they try to sell you at the traditional 15/30 intervals and just stick with the maintenance actually spelled out in my owner's manual, which is a lot less. Then I spend the money saved on "service" on the oil instead and pocket the rather large amount left over.

BTW, I think if you are not using full synthetic, the so-called "blends" are a waste of money. Most major label conventional oils are already "hydro cracked" or "isomerized" which is already pretty sophisticated refining, and the small amount of "true" synthetic added to such oils is just another stage of refinement, not "manufactured up from molecules" synthetic like Mobil 1, Redline, Amsoil. The "conventional" portion of a blend is still suceptible to thermal breakdown and shearing.

I do always take my cars back to the dealers for work, though, both to document the require work has been done (for warranty purposes) and for the peace of mind knowing that the work is more likely to be done correctly by factory trained technicians with access to the latest factory manuals. Hope this helps. Keep in mind the relative costs of:

Your Pilot;
A quart of any oil, regular or synthetic; and
The costs of "dealer recommended" "over" services.

dhoff · June 2005

Just my opinion, but... If you are only going to 5000 miles, you should be able to use a conventional oil and save some money. Most people that use synthetic go out to 10-15K to make it worthwhile. Peace of mind though, that's another thing.

I'm leaning toward using Mobil 5000 5W-20 and going with a 5000 mile OCI on my new Accord. I have done some research at bobistheoilguy.com (now there are some people that are serious about oil!) and there doesn't seem to be much consensus yet about what is the best conventional 5W-20 (some think you shouldn't even use it).

Dave

quockieo1 · June 2005

Any comments on what is a good oil filter that can be used for a conventional oil or synthetics?

toddwindyhill · June 2005

wife has 98 Avalon. ave. annual mileage is about 8500. mostly trips of 5-10 miles with occasional 500 mi. interstate trip.

is 5000 mi. ok for oil/filter changes?

micweb · June 2005

I've had good experience with the Champion brand, marketed under the Supertech (Wal-mart) and STP/Bosch brands (Auto Zone). Purolators, AC Delco, and Motorcraft have good reputations too. Fram has an iffy reputation, based solely on some do-it-yourself tear down tests on the web; they use carboard endcaps inside the filter, simple anti-drainback valves, and often have fewer square inches of filter inside. Some people swear by them, however.

YOU CAN NEVER GO WRONG using the manufacturer's filter for warranty purposes. That way the manufacturer can't point a finger to an outside supplier.

basils · June 2005

Fram filters are not just poor because of some "do-it-yourself" tear downs....no, it's more than that. Excessive valve train noise at start-up is another huge issue with Fram. I had a '91 Nissan that had terrible knocking at start-up using Fram filters. After years of trying to figure it out, I saw a web site that a person claimed to have the same problem. They said it was from a drainback valve design that Fram uses. I didn't really believe it but I figured I had nothing to lose in trying another brand. You know what? I tried a Purolator Premium Plus and NEVER had the noise again. Take this for what it's worth but Fram will never be on any of my vehicles again.

highroller · June 2005

I personally prefer about 3,000 miles for oil/filter changes but based on your driving habits, 5,000 should be ok.

highroller · June 2005

I too had good experiences with puralotor premium plus and it's alot cheaper than other filters that are out on the market right now.

basils · June 2005

Yep, for the money, Purolator Premiums are the best.....in my opinion. I saw some independant testing done on them as well and they compared very well with filters costing much more. If money wasn't an issue, and don't we all wish it wasn't, I would probably use Mobil 1 or Amsoil oil filters. Those two filters are the very best.....in my opinion.

moparbad · October 2005

-this is a continuation of discussion in Jeep Liberty Diesel forum-

The disagreement was if Amsoil 5W-40 European Forumula met the requirements of the 2005-2006 Jeep Liberty CRD.

Requirements are - - oil required for the CRD is SAE 0W-40 Synthetic Engine Oil that meets categories SL and CF (SL/CF) or better and the requirements of DaimlerChrysler Material Standard MS-10725. If you cannot find SAE 0W-40, then SAE 5W-40 Synthetic Engine Oil is acceptable. Lubricants which do not have both, the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used - - this is from the owners manual

Amsoil API license

My opinion is that since the 5W-40 Amsoil is not API certified, it should not be used.

What amazes me is that some individuals insist that Amsoil 5W-40 Synth. is API certifed, even a few that peddle the stuff.

Care to share your opinion?

winter2 · October 2005

link title

Here is the link to the page with this product. They state it is. That they have an API number is news to me.

moparbad · October 2005

Very misleading. AMSOILS position is that the oil "meets" the API requirements, and that is why they list API SL, CI-4, CF on the info. for the 5W-40. However, they do not have API license/certification for the 5W40 so they can not put the API seal on the product.

quote- AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty -end

Wahhhh ha ha! Good luck in arbitration trying to explain how meets is equivalent to certified.

winter2 · October 2005

I am going to bring this disagreement to an end. I will not be coming back to this forum.

1. API certification can be done by any good competent lab. The cost of having the API doughnut on your bottle is in excess of $50K per item. That is 50K for 5W-20, 50K for 5W-30, etc. The testing standards are available to anyone who wants to see them. Amsoil uses a lab called Falex, located in IL. If the standards are followed, and the oil meets or exceeds that standard, it does not matter who does the test so long as the testing is done the way API says it should be done.

2. There is a large and growing following of Amsoil users. Many of them have been using Amsoil for years, even without the API doughnut. As far as I can see, warranties have not been voided by using Amsoil.

3. Now what it states in the manual as you have quoted, "should not use". That is not an absolute statement. There are many things we should not do, but "should not" does not equal "cannot". That is how you are interpreting what is in the manual. You are viewing this as an absolute when it is not.

4. If you feel the oil you put in your vehicle must have the API doughnut, then go for it. I chose to use what I use based on over 200K miles of experience with Amsoil lubricants, all positive. I have never had a failure of any kind. I see no risk in using their lubricants.

5. Based on some of your responses, you have never really researched any lubricants Amsoil makes.

moparbad · October 2005

5. Based on some of your responses, you have never really researched any lubricants Amsoil makes.

What a vague statement. Trying to cast doubt? Be specific and tell me what I research I have not done.
Better yet, tell me why Amsoil states " If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice.".

wtd44 · October 2005

During the warranty period, use an oil that cannot be held in contention concerning meeting or not meeting the warranty requirements. If your engine fails, you will have all the trouble you need, regardless of oil used.

winter2 · October 2005

Thank you!

winter2 · October 2005

You happen to be stuck on the fact that an API doughnut is required which it is not. I have made that clear. Post 2780 also clarifies why it does not matter whether the oil is API licensed or not. Amsoil has that line you mention about API licensed oils. Do you know why Amsoil had those few oils certified by API? The XL oils are a blend of synthetic and regular oil. Places like Jiffy Lube, etc. sell that stuff. It is good oil but only a dollar less per quart than the really good stuff. I do not sell Amsoil, I just happen to know alot about their products.

The other reason I do not use Mobil or Exxon products is that they are in bed big time with the people who would like to see our demise, the arabs. Why should I give my money to a people who hate us? Amsoil is plant based and comes from this hemisphere as far as I know.

div2 · October 2005

FINALLY! Someone who really knows the truth about automotive lubricants. :surprise:

trv · October 2005

I've checked out the oil surveys over the years. The best oil filter is actually made by Champion for K & N and Mobil 1. These two filters are made to similar standards with the K & N being higher in oil flow versus the Mobil 1 having higher filtration. I use the K & N. Both are rated much better made than the Pure One, Purolator, Wix, Fram, etc. They have anti-drain back valves that keep the oil from draining out to the pan overnight. I had a car that was making a dry start up sound because of brief oil starvation at startup after sitting. The filter is mounted at an angle and the bad filters let the oil drain out overnight. I tried all of the filter brands but none helped until I changed to K & N. Once I started using the K & N, the morning dry start sound went away, not to come back. Also, Fram has actually introduced a new $10.00 long mileage filter that is reportedly of better quality than most. The others are suspect.

micweb · October 2005

Good summary, agrees with my understanding. Champion seems to make pretty good filters across the board, and the ones sold as Walmart brand are pretty good. They also make STP and Bosch filters usually sold at Autozone. K&N and Mobil 1 are definitely made out of better stuff, and I agree that the K&N optimizes flow while the Mobil 1 optimizes longevity and filtration.

I have heard that Pure One filters are good, but I had a drainback valve knocking when using a Pure One for one oil change on a Neon, which surprised me a little. Pure One filters are available at Pep Boys.

I have also heard that Motorcraft and AC Delco (GM) filters are pretty good.

Nowadays I try to use oem filters, to ensure no gaps in warranty coverage; although since Fram is supposed to make Honda filters, I feel a little bad about using the Fram filter.

krzyss · October 2005

with 8500 miles per year I would check time not mileage.
What user's manual suggest as OCI (Oil Change Interval?)? It should read as x miles or y months, whatever occurs first.

I would change oil twice a year (synthetic) and regular 3 times (maybe 4).

With such short trips oil has no chance to heat up and boil off contaminants (water).

Krzys

gvyt · October 2005

I recently was filing my last oil change paperwork and noticed that my trusted mechanic used 5W-40 vs. 5W-30. Full synth in a '99 BMW 328i. I haven't noticed any problems. Should I be concerned?

moparbad · October 2005

Both are rated much better made than the Pure One, Purolator, Wix, Fram, etc. They have anti-drain back valves that keep the oil from draining out to the pan overnight.

Rated by whom? I would like to read the testing as I am still educating myself on filters.

micweb · October 2005

Not so long as it's full synthetic, 5-40 is a very common European viscoscity specification, and in tests seems to be "thin" for a 40, closer to a 30, so shouldn't impact your mileage. For your own satisfaction you should find out what the manual calls for and ask your mechanic what his thinking is in departing from the manual, if that is in fact what he is doing.

wtd44 · October 2005

...in the quality of oil filters should consider going back to the archives. Some time ago, there was an active and lengthy Edmunds forum topic on it. With patience, a reader could gain a lot of knowledge by reviewing the postings.

div2 · October 2005

I wouldn't worry about it. As a matter of fact, I recommend using the 5W-40 grade of oil in BMW sixes. I currently run 5W-40 Rotella T Synthetic in my wife's 1997 528iA with no problems whatsoever. I actually prefer it to the 5W-30 BMW and 0W-40 Mobil 1 grades. At 128K the engine is in excellent condition, still using less than one quart between @8600 mile oil changes.

micweb · October 2005

The well-known fact about Rotella T Synthetic is that it is available in 4 quart jugs at Walmart for one of the best full synthetic prices out there.

The less well-known facts are that it is not, and cannot be, rated SM due its higher levels of now-prohibited antiwear additives. As an oil designated principally for diesels, it doesn't have to lower the antiwear additives to protect later-model catalytic converters. This might be a good thing and many drivers swear by it in non-diesel passenger cars. :-) However, check your manual and see what the rating requirements are for your BMW before using Rotella (same goes for other oil choices you mighte be considering), and cross check the Rotella specs. Also make sure (if you are still under warranty) that the Rotella (or any other oil) satisfies whatever obscure BMW specs are hidden in the fine print in your manual.

I considered using Rotella in my 2004 Golf, but decided, since it was still under warranty, to stick with the Castol Syntec 5-40 the dealer offered.

div2 · October 2005

Good points! If I was running a newer Bimmer that called for @16K mile changes I would definitely use an oil that met BMW's Longlife oil specs, such as 0W-30 "German" Syntec or Mobil1 0W-40. As an aside, the Rotella Synthetic also has a good reputation among many in the motorcycle community; I run it in my 1996 Speed Triple as well.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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