Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

carjim · August 2006

Thanks for the replies regarding quality of these two brands. I won't be concerned about it anymore.

desk · October 2006

I have a 2006 Subaru Forester with about 20k miles. WIthout going into detail, it appears that the last four oil changes (at least) alternated between Kendall synthetic and Castrol dino. Now the synthetic oil is in there.
Is this likely to cause any problems, having switched from one to the other and back and forth? Also, since both have been used (and I am finally aware of it), which oil should I stick with, synthetic or regular dino? Thanks for any input and suggestions.

beancountant · October 2006

Mr. Shipo: Please tell me which is better color for oil, brown to light brown or Grayish to Grayish Black. Does it mean the brown color shows the engine is well maintained, than grayish black to black?

On my 3 cars that I keep changed up to 3K miles it's light brown (using regular oil). My nephew's 94 Integra was grayish black, it had 150K on it. Does brown oil turn to Grayish black to black if left too long in terms of miles?

shipo · October 2006

As a general rule, the color of oil tells you very little about anything. That having been said, every time I've seen oil that had any kind of a gray hue to it at all there has been a coolant leak in the engine (a bad thing). That said, what you are describing and what I am envisioning may well be two very different things.

Regarding black oil, in diesel engines the oil will turn black within a few miles and still be good for another 20,000 or more. In a gasoline engine it shouldn't really go full black unless the insides of the engine are really sludged up, however, even oil that is fully black may very well still be doing its job. The only way to tell for sure what is going on is to send the oil out for analysis.

Best Regards,
Shipo

beancountant · October 2006

Where would you recommend for Oil Analysis. Would they tell you if bearing & cyl. wall wears are good or if your engine is close to failure? What else would they inform you? Do you have an idea how much? Thanks in advance!

shipo · October 2006

I use http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ for my UOAs. Go to their site and all of your questions will be answered (and many more that you never thought to ask). ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller · October 2006

If you have a high mileage vehicle who sees alot of severe driving and if you suspect that there may be a potential problem with your engine.... i'd get the dyson analysis...

imidazol97 · October 2006

I heard an advertisement about going 200K without an oil change just because they used a special filter, which was the item being advertised. This was a truck.

What comments do you have abou that possibility?

highroller · October 2006

i'd like to learn about this also, could you give us the name of the special filter being used?

All in all, i think that a)must be some really really expensive filter b)i dont want to say impossible but sounds too good to be true, unless i see convincing evidence. c)filter must be mostly free flowing and only traps VERY big particles, therefore can't be clogged up by the smaller particles with that much miles?? :confuse:

altair4 · October 2006

Same category as "snakeoil."

imidazol97 · October 2006

It was on a trucker program that's on overnight on wlw 700 am. It's on other stations as well but this is a clear channel Cincinnati station where it's based. I assume the commercials are the same on other syndicated stations.

I didn't hear the whole commercial, just the part saying he'd gone 200K and the motor had been serviced and was clean inside if I heard correctly. I make the inference that the filter gets changed at regular intervals; the oil just doesn't get changed--probably topped off for use and filter change loss.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

Pretty risky business on a semi motor---those engines cost a bundle. I know truckers are interested in saving maintenance costs, but what's 200 quarts of oil in relation to an engine that probably costs $30,000?? Especially if you are already doing the labor of changing the filter?

To say nothing of the $$$ of downtime if something breaks.

beancountant · October 2006

I went to Post # 1539 but its the wrong post#. Does anybody know how much Micron of particulates does said filter allow and is it better/worse than regular paper filters?

wtd44 · October 2006

200k miles without an oil change is an outrageous mistake at best, regardless of filter changes and topping up the oil. Can you imagine buying such a vehicle after that level of mismanagement? Oil is cheap to buy and change, by comparison to the potential such neglect poses for the drive train.

highroller · October 2006

Id love to see a UOA of using that kind of technique (just swapping out oil filters and topping off oil for 100k plus miles)... it'd be interesting to see that analysis on a passenger vehicle. I'd never risk that to my vehicle... who would though :P ??

highroller · October 2006

Alright, i need some advice/inputs on my current situation. I recently did a tranny drain and fill but kept getting the wrong level on the tranny dipstick. So here's a quick questionaire, if you will:

A) Is overfilling the tranny by 1/2 qt a cause for concern if i only drove the truck for about 200 miles? I say 200 miles because i drained and refill again and now i get 1.5 qts LOW...so...

If the dipstick shows about 1.5 qts low (barely showing any fluid on the dipstick), should i be concerned even if i only drove it for about 30 minutes (or 20 miles)? I just hope my tranny isn't being toasted... :confuse:

My checking procedure: Startup car after tranny drain and fill, drive for 15 mins., park car on level/flat surface, shift gears from Park to 1 to all the way back up to Park, let engine idle while checking tranny level on dipstick.

Now, after all my trials and error, im happy to say that im satisfied with my level... it took 4.5 qts for it to be in the OK range. Tranny capacity is 11.25 qts (to drain all of it, would have to flush it out of course, but this truck comes with a drain plug and it's alot more to my liking) if anyone wants to know.

Thanks for any replies..
Eric

imidazol97 · October 2006

Everyone's overlooking that the vehicle is a semi truck from what I caught in the commercial. It's driven long periods and then parked or might be on road continually if two drivers are in it to alternate. This is not a car for soccer moms to run errands and sit and do cold starts several times a day which increases the contaminant load in the sump.

I notice my oil looks cleaner after returning from a longer trip with drives of 4-7 hours each way. The oil has run at proper temperature for hours, purging contaminants as vapors through PCV and cylinder walls. The oil has approached nearly 100% been through the oil filter to have particulates filtered out down to minimum size filter catches.

My thought is someone who drives the car could change filters and extend the true life of the oil. Maybe an additive package could be added along with replacement new oil for oil consumed by every motor.

For short trip drivers, a method of purging contaminants by vaporization is needed. It maybe the oil method is changing the oil and letting the recycler remove the contaminants.

I see a large amount of petroleum being conserved with proper application of safe longterm usage.

wtd44 · October 2006

Those are very good thoughts, but I am immediately concerned with molecular shearing. Engines do chew up oil molecules and make little ones out of big ones. That would likely thin the oil considerably, perhaps measurable in lower viscosity. "Worn out" oil... ?

desk · October 2006

Since no one replied to my question, I searched and found http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
It looks like lots of good information, but I don't really know enough to judge.

FWIW, this site indicates that changing from synthetic to dino and back should not adversely affect newer model cars.
If anyone has anything to add, I'm still interested in your input! Thanks.

shipo · October 2006

I still don't understand why someone would bother going back and forth. Either you want to spend lots of money having your oil changed all of the time or spend lots of time under your car doing it yourself, or you want the extra protection, easier starting and longer OCIs offered by high quality synthetic oils. Switching between the two makes no sense.

Best Regards,
Shipo

desk · October 2006

Easy answer, and I didn't do it on purpose! I had the first oil changes done at the dealer. Castrol, I think. Then I used the Oil Well lube place, and they did not put a sticker on the windshield indicating what they had used. I'd used them for years before, always using Castrol, but for some reason on the new car they thought I wanted Kendall synthetic which they prefer and carry in bulk. But they didn't give me that sticker.

3000 miles later I went back to the dealer for the 15k work, and they changed the oil, using Castrol. Then I went back to Oil Well and they again didn't put a sticker on, so when I asked for it, I finally saw they'd used Kendall synthetic. Yikes. Now I'd changed from dino to synthetic to dino and back to synthetic.

My questions, then:
1. was that BAD for the car? and
2. Which should I stick with? I just want to treat the car right!

Thanks!

shipo · October 2006

Is it bad for your car? No, not at all (unless your car requires synthetic oil). If you check the web site of any of the synthetic oils sold here in the U.S. they will say the same thing, 'that they are compatible with conventional oils.'

Which should you stick with? That's a MUCH more difficult answer. From my perspective you should stick with which ever you feel most comfortable with. Errr, that is unless the manufacturer of your car requires synthetic oil, which of course makes the answer easy, synthetic.

My own preferences are well known here at Edmunds as I am a long time user (25 years) and advocate of synthetic oils. That having been said, some folks simply cannot bring themselves to drive further than 3,000 miles before changing their oil, regardless of what is in the engine. For them I universally recommend conventional oil as synthetic oil is an absolute waste of money and resources.

Best Regards,
Shipo

desk · October 2006

THANKS for the reply and information. I'll read some more in this forum about synthetics and discuss with my husband who likes to have the oil changed every 3k. He is no mechanic, and he often says "I'm used to a Model A" so I suspect he's not the best person to consult about late model engine maintenance!

I sure appreciate your help!
Diane

shipo · October 2006

Well, if hubby cannot get over the 3,000 mile OCI thing then y'all should just stick with a good high quality conventional (such as Mobil, Havoline or Castrol). If you can manage to rope him, hog tie him and then drag him kicking and screaming into the 21st century then y'all can make the switch to a good high quality synthetic (such as Mobil 1 or German made Castrol Syntec) which will allow you to triple your OCIs at the very minimum.

Best Regards,
Shipo

desk · October 2006

Ha. I'm a strong woman, should be do-able.

Where does Kendall synthetic fall in the quality range? That's what the Oil Well folks used.

shipo · October 2006

Ha. I'm a strong woman, should be do-able.

Cool, a little re-education is never a bad thing. ;-)

Regarding the Kendall synthetic, I have no experience with it so I looked it up and it isn't terribly impressive. Said another way, it looks to be a little better than conventional oil, however, it pales in comparison to Mobil 1 and German Castrol Syntec.

A quick way to get a snapshot of any given oil is to look at the "Total Base Number" (basically a measurement of the consumable portion of the oil protection package). With the TBN, the higher the number the better the protection package and the longer the oil can go without being changed. The TBN for the Kendall Synthetic is rated at 8.5 while the typical synthetic oil is at least 10.0 with some (like the Mobil 1 0W-40 that I use) reaching the high 12 to the low 13 range.

While the Kendall synthetic oil is a dollar or so cheaper than Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec, it is still several dollars per quart above high quality conventional oils that offer similar performance. Me, I'd skip the Kendall and go for a better oil.

Best Regards,
Shipo

desk · October 2006

Got it. I might not even tell the hub, but I suspect he'll live with whatever I decide as long as I do my research. :shades:
Thanks again for taking the time to explain!

beancountant · October 2006

Is the Wallmart Brand Synthetic oil good, who makes it for WM?
The price for 5 qts. was little less than $14. How about Pennzoil Platinum Syn? :confuse:

wxyz · October 2006

ZR,
Hi, My 2002 Odyssey seems to be leaking from the cylinder head gasket. The oil level was 3/8" over top mark on dipstick for 6000 miles and recently I've been driving faster. Think this could have caused oil pressure to blow seal or cylinder head gasket or would it tak a lot more oil? Hope you get this. Thanks.
Walt

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

how much is that in quarts do you think? If it were 1/2 quart, I'd say no, it couldn't do that. But if it were 2 quarts, well then yeah maybe...although one would expect other seals to blow before a head gasket.

british_rover · October 2006

3/8s over the full line on a Honda V6 should be barely 1/2 a quart. I doubt that would cause any problems at all.

wtd44 · November 2006

Virtually any modern car can take a half quart of extra oil, and I'd even guess many of them would thrive on the added cooling, particulate suspension, shearing reserve, and what have you. Stop and consider that newer cars are being fitted with higher capacity engine pans for just those reasons. If an engine is overfilled considerably, you might get into foaming and frothing that can deprive some vital surfaces of non-aerated oil. That is reported to be a bad thing. :sick:

jeffyscott · November 2006

Our VW manual and dealer say it is very bad to overfill with oil. But they have a different marking system on the dipstick. There is a range indicated on the dipstick and the proper level is in the middle of the range...that's where it gets filled to when oil is changed. There is an acceptable area above and below this. So, I think the middle of the VW range corresponds to the "full" mark on most cars.

wtd44 · November 2006

You shouldn't set out to overfill on purpose, but if you discover that you have added a little too much oil, it is forgivable in the case of most cars. I agree with your added caution concerning VW vehicles. They have had some lubrication intrigues ongoing in recent years, with sludge problems, for one. It would not pay to tempt fate, and have a claim denied.

smokey75 · December 2006

I have been using Amsoil 5w-30 synthetic for two years now with 1 year oil change intervals. I have also used Amsoil oil & air filters. Prior to this I used Mobil 1 with 3 month change intervals. I'm not happy with the oil analysis I just received from Blackstone Labs after one year and 15,772 miles. Here are their comments:

This oil was in use for too long a distance for this engine to handle as can be seen by the higher than average amount of wear metals (Iron 35ppm). The TBN was 0.0, showing no active additive in the oil. Silicon at 44 ppm is either from a silicone-based lube/sealer/gasket or it is dirt getting past the air filter, so check that out. Oil viscosity was higher than normal due to extended use. We suggest a 7500-mile oil change to help improve wear and check back to see the results.

I know there are some people who don't like Amsoil, but I'm looking for everyone's opinion of this.

shipo · December 2006

Well, nearly 16,000 miles does seem to be a bit long, even for a fully synthetic PAO oil. My guess is that you could probably get away with 10,000 miles and maybe even more. Your best bet would probably be to continue using the Amsoil 5W-30 (or even Mobil 1 0W-40), have both a UOA and a VOA performed at 7,500 miles and extrapolate from there. FWIW, my Mobil 1 0W-40 UOAs have proven that 10,000 to 12,000 miles still gives a comfortable margin of error for our two engines that don't have OLMs (I go 15,000 or more on our one OLM equipped car).

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75 · December 2006

How can Amsoil & Mobil be so wreckless in saying they're good for one year/25,000 miles when this doesn't seem to be the case? What's your take on the Silicon? What kind of air & oil filters do you use? Anyone found a comprehensive comparison of air filters anywhere?

shipo · December 2006

"How can Amsoil & Mobil be so wreckless in saying they're good for one year/25,000 miles when this doesn't seem to be the case?"

Mobil doesn't make that claim for any of their oils (haven't for decades, IIRC), and I think that Amsoil only makes that claim for a few of their oils. FWIW, oils that are capable of that many miles require additives that aren't the best for modern emissions systems, and as such the formulas for most oils no longer support that kind of mileage, even if they say that they do.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75 · December 2006

Amsoil makes that claim on their true synthetic oils... not the hydrocracked xl line. Doesn't the Mobil 1 Extended claim that long?

british_rover · December 2006

Well with Amsoil they do say to change the oil filter at 12,500 miles and then change everything at 25,000 miles.

They also only recommend doing the 25,000 mile complete OCI if you are using both an amsoil oil filter and air filter.

Changing the filter at the halfway point introduces between 0.5 and 1.0 quarts of fresh oil into the system. That would tend to rejuvenate the additive package.

shipo · December 2006

"Doesn't the Mobil 1 Extended claim that long?"

Nope, they only claim 15,000 for the EP product line.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75 · December 2006

Actually that's with Amsoil's old filter. The new Ea filter is one year 25,000 miles. I used both Amsoil oil & air filter. But, you're right on about the midway fresh oil rejuvenating the additive package. The year before when I used Amsoil it still used the 6 month filter. I did oil analysis at 6 months before the filter change & at 1 year before the oil change. The TBN at 6 months was 2.87 & 3.25 at one year, actually higher at one year than 6 months because of what was used to top off.

smokey75 · December 2006

Yeah, I see that now... 15,000 miles. What's your take on that, good for 15,000 miles or are they full of sh** also? Sorry, I'm a little bitter right now about unsupported claims made by oil companies.

pulgo · December 2006

This is what Amsoil says:

SERVICE LIFE
AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-30 Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline fueled vehicles as follows:

 Normal Service(3)  Up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

 Severe Service(4)  Up to 15,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

 Replace AMSOIL Ea oil filter at the time of oil change up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).

 In all non-gasoline fueled vehicle applications, extend the oil change interval according to oil analysis or follow the OEM* drain interval.

*OEM  Original Equipment Manufacturer

(1) Engines operating under modified conditions are excluded from extended drain recommendations. Examples include the use of performance computer chips; non-OEM approved exhaust, fuel or air induction systems; and the use of fuels other than those recommended for normal operation by the manufacturer.

(2) Mechanically sound engines are in good working condition and do not, for example, leak oil or consume excessive amounts, are not worn out, do not overheat, do not leak anti-freeze and have properly working emission control systems. AMSOIL recommends repairing malfunctioning engines prior to the installation of AMSOIL synthetic oils.

(3) Personal vehicles frequently traveling greater than 10 miles (16 km) at a time and not operating under severe service.

wtd44 · December 2006

May I suggest that you just simply switch to a top notch hydrocracked motor oil that is produced in the fashion of Havoline and Chevron? If you use a decent oil filter and change both every 5K miles (or less, if you desire), you are almost certain to have no lubrication problems stemming from the oil in use.

smokey75 · December 2006

My driving does not meet either Amsoil or Nissan's criteria for severe, the engine is mechanically sound and not modified, and I use the premium fuel that is recommended by Nissan. Yet I can't get even close to 25,000 miles. I only had 15,700 miles on the oil. Even if it was severe that's only 700 miles over their recommendation. I would hate to see what would happen if actually got 25,000 miles in a year. Do you use Amsoil too pulgo?

smokey75 · December 2006

WTD44, there are the obvious benefits of extended drain intervals... money, time saved, etc. But there are other advantages of using a true synthetic PAO oil, even if you drain it every 5K miles. I still think longer intervals than 7500 are possible, I just have to find a happy medium. I'm just dissapointed with Amsoil's recommendations. Most people that follow their recommendations will never get an oil analysis & may not know the damage they're doing. This just bothers me because I baby my vehicles.

pulgo · December 2006

Yes I do.
My 2001 Echo with 157k miles gets either ASL 5W-30 or Mobil 1, 5W-30 at slightly varying intervals, the last OCI was a little over 16k miles.

See: http://tinyurl.com/ybtok3

I do use a dual filter by-pass setup and I do change my full flow oil filter every 8k miles. I use the cheapest oil filters, usually Supertech from Wallyworld.

My trips are mostly to and from work, at least 40 miles every time. Another 500 miles every other weekend to the cabin.

smokey75 · December 2006

The dual filter by-pass makes all the difference in the world from what I've heard.

wtd44 · December 2006

As I bet you know, Waldomart filters are made by Champion, and are first line "standard" filters. Several years back, filters were a big topic in these Edmunds threads. All the info I absorbed from the guys that really went the distance on the topic gave me the knowledge that Waldomart house branded filters do all you could really need when using good oil with a moderate OCI.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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