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Personally I've never been convinced that the EP product line was worth the premium. Now that there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that Mobil is using a Group III base for the EP oil instead of what has always been assumed to be Group IV PAO, I'm even less sold on the EP product.
The flip side is that I've been extremely pleased with the performance of Mobil 1 0W-40, which by the way is likely a full PAO, contrary to the rhetoric and herd mentality speculation over on BITOG.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Good question that has a few possible answers:
1) I'm not sure that we'll ever know the oil formulations from make to make and from grade to grade.
2) That said, the MSDS is a pretty good place to start.
3) Another place to look for an indirect indication of robustness of formulation is the certificated standards met by any given brand and grade of oil. Said another way, both BMW and VW have published some pretty rigorous standards for engine oil. Currently the VW 503.01 standard (made specifically for 200 HP and greater versions of the venerable 1.8T) seems to be about the most robust published standard and oils that meet it are almost certainly concocted with PAO.
Do you need to know, or just want to know?
Need to know? No. Want to know? Probably. That said, if any given oil meets the most rigid standards in the industry, it's probably the latest and greatest that current petroleum engineering can offer.
Are the oil companies cheating the public with this seeming guile?
Probably not. I respect intellectual property rights and were I in management for one of these companies that concoct engine oil, I would be very inclined to hold my formulation cards very close to the vest.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, it is the third branch of the US government who instigated the cheating. In other way, the public itself.
Years ago Mobil went to court to stop its competitors to advertise cracked natural oils as synthetic. The court decided the other way. The jury is nothing but a public...
From an Amsoil website:
The Ruling
In a ruling released April 1999, the NAD addressed complaints filed by Mobil Oil Corp. regarding the truthfulness of Castrol North America Inc.'s claim that its Syntec® provides "superior engine protection" to all other motor oils, both synthetic and conventional, and that Syntec's esters provide "unique molecular bonding." Mobil charged that the advertisements inaccurately represented that the current formulation of Syntec is synthetic. The challenge was filed based on statements Castrol made in a series of television commercials, Web site publications, package labels, and brochures.
The NAD divided its decision to address three issues raised in the complaint. Is the reformulated Syntec synthetic motor oil? Has Castrol substantiated its superiority claims? Has Syntec been degraded?
Synthetic?
The NAD determined that the evidence presented by the advertiser constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil. NAD noted that Mobil markets hydroisomerized basestocks as synthetic in Europe and elsewhere. NAD noted that the action taken by the SAE to delete any reference to "synthetic" in its description of basestocks in section J354 and API's consequent removal of any mention of "synthetic" in API1509 were decisions by the industry not to restrict use of the term "synthetic" to the definition now proffered by Mobil. Further, the SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book, an extensively peer-reviewed publication, states base oils made through the processes used to create Shell's hydroisomerized basestock, severe cracking, and reforming processes may be marketed as "synthetic."
Superior?
Despite its prior ruling, the NAD advised that Syntec could not advertise a superior protection claim.
Degraded?
The NAD determined that though Mobil presented clear evidence that Castrol has made a major change to Syntec's formulation, it was not sufficient to demonstrate that Syntec has been "degraded."
I seem to recall from the other thread, where you (or was it someone else?) indicated that your lab results showed that your 5W30 oil degraded to a 15W50 state, which would appear extreme! I tried to find a reference to that information, but I cannot find it right now (serves me right to wait this long to reply!!). If that is what happened, I wanted to point out that there is a big difference in how an engine performs between a 5W30 oil and one that is 15W50, where the latter oil would create a lot of drag and would be quite noticeable. If it was wintertime, your car would crank slower with a 15W50 which would behave quite sluggishly, so did you notice any these driveability problems that would have corroborated the lab results, if that indeed occurred to you?
I recall about 25 years ago going from a used 10W30 dino oil to a brand new 10W50 Shell Fire and Ice dino oil and I noted a big drop in performance with that brand new fresh oil, where the spread of those numbers is not quite as large as the ones your lab says occurred to your oil.
Earlier this week I had gone to my local AMS Oil warehouse to make a purchase where I met a dealer (or was he a direct jobber?), who was also making a purchase of his own. He seemed quite knowledgeable about cars and he said he used to build racing engines. Anyway, I told him about your problem with the low TBN number on the oil analysis and he said that if your engine's timing is not proper, it would rapidly degrade the oil no matter what brand or weight of oil you happen to use.
By the way this was the second AMS Oil dealer I have met at this warehouse who says that Mobil 1 uses a blend of the pure PAO basestock along with the inferior super refined dino juice. He added that the additives that Mobil puts into their Mobil 1 is suspended in dino juice (which I suppose it super refined, but I'm not sure on this one).
There seem to be a lot of folks on these threads who think that Mobil 1 is the king of the hill of the oil lubrication scene, but I am curious why they feel this is the case? I have used both Mobil 1 and AMS Oil and there is a difference to me with the engine performance with the AMS Oil. Allegedly both Mobil 1 and AMS Oil do not use any VI
(viscosity improver, which reportedly is not good for engines) in their 5W30 weights. You can go ahead on your own to compare the pour points and the flash points of the Mobil 1 5W30 to AMS Oil's ASL 5W30 and you'll notice how there is a larger spread of the numbers with the AMS Oil. Could this larger spread of the numbers with the AMS Oil be due to their oil being more a pure PAO basestock oil and/or purer PAO suspending the additive package than Mobil 1, considering that neither brand has any VI added to their formulas?? You be the judge! I guess if these Mobil 1 fans tried AMS Oil, they would see the difference for themselves.
Sorry, not buying. :P
For my part, I am a firm believer of using the oils formulated specifically for the European car standards (the most demanding oil specifications currently published), and as such I like comparing the oils that are certified to meet the VW 503.01 and MB 229.5 tests. That leaves Mobil 1 0W-40 and German Castrol Syntec 0W-30 as the only two readily available contenders. Amsoil has an oil that they claim meets those same two standards, however, until independently verified, I consider the Amsoil offering into this space as suspect.
With the above in mind, and for the sake of argument, comparing Mobil 1 0W-40 to the Amsoil 5W-40 European formula on both paper and with side by side UOAs, I consistently see superior results from the Mobil 1 offering. Said another way, statements like "Amsoil has been tested by a third party company against Mobile 1 and has beaten Mobile 1 in all its test.", are clearly biased marketing bilge and do nothing to support your case.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I then stopped using Castrol Syntec when I discovered on one cold winter day that I was barely able to start my car. It cranked very slowly and almost did not start. When it did start, the engine exhibited all the symptoms of dino juice, where the engine runs very rough and no doubt it is during this cold start/warm up phase where some metal to metal contact is being made that leads to needless engine wear (where the thick as molasses oil cannot be easily pumped by the oil pump). Later, I read that Syntec is nothing more than super refined dino juice, which is probably why I found it hard to start on that cold winter day (whether the article was true or not, I'll never know). Dino juice, comes out of the ground containing some nasty stuff, such as wax, tar, asphalt, sulpher, water, etc and as hard as refineries try to get this nasty stuff eradicated from the oil, they are not entirely successful, which is why so many synthetic oil fans keep searching for the pure PAO formula, which is free from all these impurities.
After abandoning the Syntec, I then started using Mobil 1, since once again, I had fallen for their advertising. I had toyed with the idea of using AMS Oil over the years, but the price initially kept me from doing it until I took the plunge last March. I can tell you that the AMS Oil made a world of difference to me in real performance in comparison to the Mobil 1.
Take it from me, Shipo, I have used both products and I can attest which one is better. "Seeing is Believing," or in this case "Using is Believing." I can only assume that you have not tried AMS Oil, so how can you make the statement that Mobil 1 is the king of the hill, if you have never tried it for yourself? An analogy would be if you only consummed white wine and never tried red wine, how would you be able to state that the white wine was the best wine in the world? An ancient Chinese master once remarked to a student that in order to try the master's brand of tea, the student had to first "empty" his cup. Your cup, Shipo, appears to be overflowing with Mobil 1, so there appears to be no room for AMS Oil anyway.
Since you like third party tests, Shipo, how about the third party tests that show Mobil 1 producing more scarring to the metal on the four bearing tests than AMS Oil? That in essence means that AMS Oil does a better job in protecting the metal of the engine and isn't that the "MAIN OBJECTIVE" why we are searching for the best oil???
Why would you want to use a 0W40 Oil anyway, if you are not operating a newer European vehicle that was designed for that weight of oil? What do your owner's manuals say about the preferred weight of the oil?
In closing, it would appear that you are either an employee of Exxon Mobil or a stock holder by your comments. I admit that I am a former stock holder of XOM (Exxon Mobil). I own no stock in AMS Oil and I am neither a dealer nor a direct jobber for that company. I am only a preferred customer of AMS Oil (where I have to pay a annual $20.00 fee), that allows me to purchase their projects at a discount. I am interested, however, in becoming a dealer of theirs, since I believe that much in the company after "personally testing" its products against the competition.
Oh please, are you a petroleum engineer? Do you have comparative UOAs to support your assertions? If you answer 'No' to both of those questions, your endorsement is irrelevant and meaningless.
"Your cup, Shipo, appears to be overflowing with Mobil 1, so there appears to be no room for AMS Oil anyway."
Hmmm, that's funny, how then do you explain my occasional use of GC 0W-30?
"Since you like third party tests, Shipo, how about the third party tests that show Mobil 1 producing more scarring to the metal on the four bearing tests than AMS Oil?"
I assume you are referring to the "four-ball" test. Yes, no? If there ever was a worthless test, that is one. If you don't agree, please, enlighten us as to where in a modern engine there exists the specific forces that are encountered in the four-ball test.
Why would you want to use a 0W40 Oil anyway, if you are not operating a newer European vehicle that was designed for that weight of oil? What do your owner's manuals say about the preferred weight of the oil?
My last two cars specified oils that are required to meet the BMW LL-01 oil spec. Mobil 1 0W-40 and GC 0W-30 are both certified to meet that standard. Since I got the first of those two BMWs, I've started using both of those oils in our two domestic cars that specify 5W-30. While the UOAs from the Mobil 1 5W-30 were quite good, the UOAs from those two domestic cars running on the Mobil 1 0W-40 and the GC 0W-30 have proven to be even better. The proof is in the science.
FWIW, over a combined 220,000 miles for the aforementioned domestic cars, I've used the following oils:
Mobil 1:
- 5W-30
- 0W-30
- 0W-40
Castrol Syntec (German made only):
- 0W-30
Through it all, there isn't one iota of measurable difference in how they operate, errr, except that is during a cold start in extremely cold below zero temperatures.
"In closing, it would appear that you are either an employee of Exxon Mobil or a stock holder by your comments."
I am neither.
Best Regards,
Shipo
You say the Four Ball test does not having any relevance? The test simulates how the oil protects the metal from the pressure and sliding motion of the metal balls. So you don't think it has any relevance to what appears to be similar forces within an engine? By the way, even if you don't feel it is relevant, doesn't it concern you that your beloved 0W30 Mobil 1 produced almost 3 times the scarring at 1.842 than your 5W30 Mobil 1 at 0.667? AMS Oil 0W30 only left a scar that was 0.374 in size. Not bad, uh? Obviously not all oil is the same, even made by the same company!
Are you sure that Mobil 1 doesn't use any of the dreaded Viscosity Improver in that 0W40 formula? If your domestic car did not specify any multi grade with a "40" number in it, I would be leary in using one that did, since your car may not have been engineered to do so. An oil that is more viscous has a tendency to retain more heat within the engine. Have you ever noted your temperature guage in using the 0W40 vs. your 0W30?
Since Castrol in the USA is allegedly made with super refined dino juice, how are you not sure that Castrol in Germany doesn't do the same? Did you review their MSDS sheet?
Which particular oils were bad in the cold weather for you? Which ones were good, if any? You may want to compare the "pour points" of the various AMS Oil products to yours. I am sure you'll be impressed how the AMS Oil operates in the frigid. Maybe it is due to their reportedly higher PAO content.
But I can see a difference in the Exxon oil 10-30W in my 3800 when I use a PureOne filter instead of a Purolator Plus filter. The oil stayed clear up through 5300 miles and 5.5 months. I did take several long trips during that period but the car was driven a lot of short drives by the distaff member of the family. I will be using PureOnes in the newer car and the Plus' in the older 3800. I suspect the finer filter lets less oil through the filter but the long trips and warm oil temperature in the sump means a lot of oil gets filtered. The larger holes in the filter of the Plus filter more oil in short trips but isn't quite as efficient at removing the smaller particulates.
Does anyone know about these two filters and a difference in area of the media?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regarding UOAs, I've had them performed on the Mobil 1 (non-EP) oils that I've used in our two domestic cars (non-OLM equipped), the 0W-30 and 0W-40 both have some life left after 10,000 miles (although the 0W-30 was about used up). Would I push the 0W-40 to the ragged edge at roughly 13,000 miles? Nope. To my way of thinking, the lack of an OLM on those cars combined with the vagaries of driving means that I want to use that 3,000 mile cushion as my margin of error. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
thanks in advance.
dennis
Best Regards,
Shipo
Like it or not, using synthetic oil and extended OCIs offers a very compelling economy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
A fully synthetic 10W-30?
Hmmm, well for starters, I cannot for the life of me figure out why any manufacturer would even sell such an oil in this day and age. Slice it and dice it anyway they want, a fully synthetic Zero-dubya-whatever is going to protect as well as a Ten-dubya-whatever (if not better) when the engine is hot, however, the "0W" will start flowing (and protecting) WAY sooner upon engine start.
Regarding the 10W-30 in your 5W-20 engine, once the engine is warmed up, it probably won't make much of a difference (except maybe in gas mileage), however, even if your winter time temperatures only reach down to plus twenty, I think the ten weight oil is a bit thick. Regarding your winter time temps, I used to live in New Jersey which ain't all that far north of you, and there were winters in recent memory that saw the mercury drop to minus twenty or so. Is it true that Delaware is that much more mild?
I'm thinking that were I in your shoes, I'd probably be using either a 0W-20 or a 0W-30 (both fully synthetic) as my year round oil. Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The good news in the case of both of these cars is that they are WAY beyond the factory warranty period (and even the optional warranty periods that we didn't buy) and still running as well as the day they came from the showroom.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Do you mean 10W has no protection to the engine in the 0-32 F temp range?
Delaware today experiences the coldest day in this ten years with the outdoor temp of 5 F at my home (not minus 20F as in NJ), my Tarus is sitting in the garage with the temperature of 27F . I need to ask my wife don't drive too fast at the beginning.
Per the Kendall web site, they also make a 5W-30 and a 5W-40 "Synthetic". That said, I don't know if it's new, in production, in the distribution pipeline or anything else about it. Based upon the way they've presented the qualifications of the two "5W" oils, my bet is that these are really Group III hydrocracked crude oils as opposed to the full PAO based Group IV synthetics.
"I need to drive another 5,000 miles before changing."
Really? Any particular reason?
"Do you mean 10W has no protection to the engine in the 0-32 F temp range?"
No, what I was trying to convey is that, during a cold start, 10W oils offer less protection (by virtue of the longer time such oils take to make their appointed rounds) than would a 0W oil. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of engine wear occurs during engine start.
Regarding the minus twenty we had in New Jersey, I'm thinking that happened either in December of 1993 or 1994, back when I was living in the Jersey City area. The bet is that pretty much all of Delaware got down well below zero as well. Is this an every year occurrence? Obviously not. Does it happen often enough that you might want to consider using 0W oils in the future? I would.
FWIW #1, even in high summer temperatures, and engine being cold started will benefit from having a 0W oil in the pan, just to a lesser degree.
FWIW #2, a garaged car cold soaked to 27 above should be fairly easy to start with a 10W oil in it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The VW just says things like "extemely low temperatures". I decided to call VW to find out what this means. After investigating they called back and said it means less than 32 deg. I find this to be a completely ridiculous definition of extremely low temperatures.
I just bought a Mazda and this one is also extremely vague...says things like short trips and low temperatures, without defining the terms. They would not give me a straight answer and would only refer me to dealership service department.
So true. Makes it easy for dealership to deny warranty claims when components break down.
No way I thought I would be under "severe" maintenance on my 2004 Mazda MPV. But when looking under the owners manual Scheduled Maintenance recommendations, it is difficult to see how any vehicle could not fall into the Schedule 2(Severe) maintenance. i.e 1) repeated short-distance driving(who doesn't?) 2) driving in dusty conditions(vague)4)driving in areas where salt or other corrosive materials are being used(about 70% of the U.S land mass) 5)driving on rough or muddy roads( vague) and my favorite...driving for long periods in cold temeratures or extremely humid climates. Well if you're not in one you're probably in the other...again vague.
Me: Can you please clarify some of the terms and conditions that are used to describe conditions under which maintenace schedule 2 applies?
What is considered short-distance driving?
Why does driving in areas where salt or other corrosive materials are being used mean that a shorter oil change interval is required?
What specific temperature range qualifies as "cold"?
Mazda USA: Thank you for contacting Mazda.
Since our office is not technically trained, I can only stand behind what our owners manual states.
Short distance driving is many city stops. Cold weather, daily temperatures under 40 degrees has an influence on types of lubricants used.
If you have any further questions regarding maintinance or terms and conditions, I have listed a Mazda dealership which there service department can help assist you.
I tried again with my response to that, saying things like Mazda must mean something by those words, to get them to answer and he just refered me to a dealer again. So I sent the questions to the dealer from whom I purchased.
My dealership "recommends" oil changes every 3k miles and transmission flush every 30k miles. The owner manual recommends oil changes every 7,500 miles and doesn't recommend transmission fluid change. So, a dealership will tell you whatever makes them the most money.
Mazdas clarification of what is short distance driving remained vague. "Many city stops" & "daily temps under 40 degrees" ? Could be interpretted in many different ways.
I change my oil every 4k and trans fluid will be changed shortly at 30k miles, as it appears to be wearing down some. Good luck with your Mazda.
I wouldn't worry about the 20 vs. the 30 number as those only describe the viscosity of the oil when up to operating temperatures (i.e. about 200 degrees plus or minus 30 or so) where the differences are rather negligible. What I do find troubling is the actual weight of the oil currently in your engine. Ford calls for a 5W (i.e five weight) oil and the Kendall is a 10W (ten weight) which when cold is much more viscous and reluctant to flow through your cold soaked engine that is being started after hours of sitting.
The best bet for a year round oil for your car would be either a 5W-20 (probably a semi-synthetic or a synthetic-blend) or a fully synthetic 0W-20. Both of those oils (regardless of manufacturer) will most likely meet all of Ford's most recent oil specifications, however, as I'm partial to fully synthetic oils, I'd opt for something like the Mobil 1 0W-20 and use it, and only it, regardless of the season.
Best Regards,
Shipo
FWIW, our two domestic minivans specify 5W-30 or 10W-30, however, I'm using 0W-40 in them instead, and so far at least, the UOAs are virtually perfect. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Anecdotal evidence is the primary means for determining the makeup of an oil, short that is of performing a Gas Chromatograph on the subject oil. Using resources such as BITOG and such, one can read first hand discussions from folks who have access to GC analyzers and you can read UOAs on various oils directly from the UOA database. Over time, a picture starts to emerge that suggests things like, Castrol Syntec 5W-40 is a Group III hydrocracked crude oil while Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is a Group IV PAO oil.
Then there are other indicators. A good litmus test is the certifications that various oils have. FWIW, I consider the VW/Audi 503.01 oil spec to be one of the most robust specifications for gasoline engine oil out there today. This standard is so difficult to meet that there are only two oils generally available in North America today that are certified to meet this specification, namely the aforementioned Castrol Syntec 0W-30 and Mobil 1 0W-40.
As for why I'm using 0W-40, well, actually there are many reasons:
1) I'm a DIYer, and so it's nice to only have to stock one kind of oil. Prior to picking up my current contract that requires me to drive very high mileage, I had had the luxury of driving leased BMWs, and that's the oil they require. So, keeping it simple, I just used 0W-40 in all of our cars (and subsequent UOAs have shown that this oil is a VERY good match for our vans).
2) Mobil 1 0W-40 is actually fairly thin on the "40" side, kinda more like a 0W-36 if you will, and compared to a conventional 5W-30, not all that much more viscous when hot.
3) Given the rigors that this oil is certified to be able to withstand (i.e. small displacement, high specific output turbo-charged engines), it's more than a match for anything our minivans can throw at it, even with a 10,000 mile OCI.
4) Our vans now have a combined 220,000 miles on them and as such, they are both well broken in. Oil that's a little thicker ain't gonna hurt a thing.
5) The UOAs that I've had performed indicate that this oil is good in our vans for an easy 12,000 to 13,000 miles, which means that I can target 10,000 mile OCIs (meaning that I usually get to it by 11,000 miles) and still leave myself a good margin of error. Even with that relatively long OCI, I'm still doing nine oil changes per year.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Thanks
Used Mobil 1 for decades then read about downgrading of the formulation. High Noack numbers. And bad 0w40 experience in the crd.
IIRC a host here said to buy any good base oil and change it often. Oil now sure beats any oil we had from the fifties and on.
Can now buy 5w30 for a malibu and an h3. Just used the last 5w30 M1 in the bu and about 6k miles on the h3 with truck suv 5w30 M1 (bu with 34k and h3 with 9k on the odometers). Saw the new prices for oil, 6k M1 UOA at another forum and am about ready to do 5k changes (in texas heat) with $10 jug valvoline or $11 jug pennzoil and ignore the gm oil monitors and hydrocracked, pao, pe techno.
Am I going crazy?