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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    Brain trust? Uhhh...

    Maybe we need to replace the tinfoil in our hats?

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    That and I think one of my antennae is bent. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    I hate it when that happens... ;)
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    I have heard that it is out of fashion to have them sticking out of one's head.

    ;-)

    Krzys

    PS I suspect that we will not be enlightened as to what tired_old_dave meant.
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    First, thanks for making post no. 3254 (got tired of "... when that happens..." and "altair4" reminds me of a 50's sci fi movie and keeps my brain cell thinking about a little flying saucer from earth some where way out there. Dang, just did it again to myself - have to get a song stuck in that one brain cell now to overwrite it. Must go look at bitog again, saw $28 jugs of the new great 15k mile mobil one at wally world. At those prices, one can case buy a true class iv/v oil
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    and "altair4" reminds me of a 50's sci fi movie

    Bingo! With Leslie Nielson, also from Stephen King's "The Tommyknockers". I'm a sf buff who dabbles in backyard astronomy....so it works on a few different levels.
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Good luck and hope you discover something. If memory serves me right, walked to the theater with thirty-five cents in my pocket for a ticket. To this day, better_half gets driven out of the city lights (getting farther each year) to see her meteor showers.
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    O'Reilly's oil promotion runs 9/26-10/30/2007. Stopped in this afternoon, bought a case of synthetic oil and was given a rebate for purchase price refund. Went on line to O'Reilly and started the rebate procedure-paperwork going in tomorrow.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    Now THAT is a good deal....only in America does it make sense to give away product.
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    my 1997 expedition xlt 4x4 4.6lt(146,000)gives out a bluish looking smoke from the exhaust,i put some no smoke treatment in it seemed to solve the problem (for now)it seems like when the a/c is on its worse,i use castrol syntec,valvoline&pennzoil synthetic oil,with a regular oil filter(k&n)sometimes,is there a better brand oil i should use?what type oil&air filter would you suggest?i would like my truck to last another couple of years.
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    i have a 90 honda civic,165,000miles,what type of oil,oil filter&air filter would you suggest to prolong the life of the engine,how do you feel about (LUCAS OIL AND FUEL ADDITIVES)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm thinking that at this point your best bet would be to use nothing but conventional oil and the Motorcraft FL-1A oil filter (if it fits). Using synthetic oil will be a simple waste of money and won't help your engine one bit.

    As a suggestion, you might want to have a "cylinder leak down test" and/or a borescope performed. The leak down test will determine if the rings, valves and head gaskets are still sealing properly. The borescope will be able to identify scored cylinder walls and detonation damage. The two most likely problems with your engine are cylinder wall/ring damage and/or valve stem/valve guide damage.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I take it that you didn't like my response from your other posts. Like it or not, there is no scientific evidence that supports the effacacy of these products, and plenty of evidence that suggests the contrary. I understand that you want to believe that you're being kind to your car by using these products, but it just isn't so.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    let me see if i understand you clearly,so your really saying is that castrol has been deceiving the country over the years.....wow(interesting)so if castrol syntec isn't really synthetic,what is it?????
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "let me see if i understand you clearly,so your really saying is that castrol has been deceiving the country over the years.....wow(interesting)so if castrol syntec isn't really synthetic,what is it?????"

    This is not a news flash, it's been known for years that all domestically produced Castrol Syntec is really just a Group III hydrocracked crude oil. The only Castrol Syntec that is a true Group IV PAO based synthetic oil is the German made (says "Made in Germany" on the label) Castrol Syntec 0W-30.

    http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject/fluids/nadcastrol.htm

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    what exactly is dino oil??? also which synthetic oil&oil filter would you suggest for my 97 expedition(146,000mi)and also which conventional oil and oil filter for my 90 civic(165,000mi)thanks....
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    If you had read just five posts past that seven and a half year old post that you responded to, you would have had your answer.

    Do yourself a favor and don't use synthetic oil in either of your cars, there just isn't any benefit in doing so. Please understand that I am a synthetic oil advocate and have used it in every car I've owned for the last 25 years, and that I recommend it to everyone that has an engine that will benefit from it. Said another way, it's not like I'm one of the folks in the "Dino juice is just as good and synthetic oil is a waste of money" camp.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • okko1okko1 Member Posts: 327
    if you have not been using a synthetic oil since the vehicle was pretty much new there will be no advantage. it is a possibility that it will have an opposite effect. i would be gentle with it and maybe consider using an oil with a lower detergent value. you should consider the rate of consumption at this point. a little smoke at start up or under load with that many miles is pretty normal.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Hey! The "bang-for -the-buck" resides with the new hydrocracked mineral oils. Chevron seems to be king in this technology.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Hey! The "bang-for -the-buck" resides with the new hydrocracked mineral oils. Chevron seems to be king in this technology."

    Yup, been hearing about that technology, however, "Bang for the Buck" is debatable. As far as I know, PAO based oils are still superior from the longevity perspective, and since I "cost" my lost time into the oil change equation, and the less often I need to change it, the less it costs me. I'll gladly spent an extra ten bucks on an oil change so that I can drive an extra couple thousand miles before I need to do it again.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Under the presumption that you are saying that an oil change only costs you $10 extra to use a high quality synthetic, I am skeptical. I am finding that one quart of true synthetic oil will cost me four to five times what a quart of hydrocracked mineral oil costs. These are real-world prices paid, not theoretical prices. I'm talking lowest prices available in the local market.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I am finding that one quart of true synthetic oil will cost me four to five times what a quart of hydrocracked mineral oil costs."

    Hmmm, a quick check of local prices shows that the best price for Group III versions of Castrol Syntec (i.e. not the German made 0W-30) is $4.99, and a quart of Pennzoil Platinum (when purchased in a six-pack) goes for $4.68.

    On the Group IV/PAO side of things, a quart of Valvoline SynPower goes for $5.47 and a quart of Mobil 1 goes for 5.99.

    So, it appears that my guess of $10 for an oil change was a bit high. Where are you buying Group III oils for a quarter to a fifth of the cost of Group IV oils?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Another h3 forum has a post from a gm insider?camera buff mentioning as an aside of a mobil 1 add pack problem? but seems to say that amsoil asl and mobil 1 (grades not mentioned) are the definitive syn oils. Another poster mentioned old racing tests where some syn's gave less hp and some gave more hp.

    3.5 nosiy malibu v6 with M1 after break-in immediately quieted down with the thickest 5w30 syn oil available. Noticed that mileage is up over the thin 5w30 mobil 1 (with/without? a good add pack). With M1 and four full sized people the engine felt like an 80's accord with a carb and not even 100hp. Now with 4 full sized adults the v6 pulls and pulls. Compression ring sealing? (and cleaner oil).

    Never bought amsoil but remember meeting old slick 50 dealers and listened to their marketing stories after the change. Now when an amsoil dealer is met, usually says my friend (upline) has inventory in his garage. Can buy a 6mo or 12mo discount and buy from someone's garage or drop ship from the company directly. Seems strange.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    Why don't you just throw a stick of dynamite......

    Here we go on Amsoil again.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    On the Group IV/PAO side of things, a quart of Valvoline SynPower goes for $5.47 and a quart of Mobil 1 goes for 5.99.

    I was always under the impression that Valvoline Synpower was a hydrocracked Grp III. So it's a Grp IV?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I've heard it both, however, after combing through the Valvoline web site, I think that SynPower is a PAO based oil. For the moment at least I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, that said, obviously I'm not 100% sure. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    In my area, I can buy top quality mineral oils for not over $1.00 per quart by watching the weekly ads from the discount auto parts chain stores. I have to buy ahead, but I enjoy the "challenge" of staying in that price range. All my vehicles require six quarts for an oil change these days.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Using petrolium based oil in a late model engine in good condition is a waste of money in my opinion. Why? Because the time spent dealing with oil changes is worth nearly as much as the synthetic oil that I use. I figure that I spend roughly a half of an hour per oil change, which includes draining the oil swapping the filter, filling the oil back up, pouring off the drained oil into recycling containers, test driving the car and topping off the oil so that it reaches the "Max" indicator on the dipstick.

    So, if I look at it from a purely economic perspective:

    Oil change using conventional oil (using your absurdly low $1.00 per quart figure):
    Oil: $5.00
    Filter: $4.50
    Time: $35.00
    Total: $44.50

    Oil change using Mobil 1 0W-40 (using the price I typically pay):
    Oil: $29.95
    Filter: $4.50
    Time: $35.00
    Total: $69.45

    Clearly the synthetic oil change costs more, however, conventional oil needs to be changed two to three times as often, so:

    12,000 miles of driving using conventional oil being changed every 3,000 miles: $178.00

    12,000 miles of driving using conventional oil being changed every 4,000 miles: $133.50

    12,000 miles of driving using synthetic oil being changed every 12,000 miles: $69.45

    Given that my wife and I have each averaged just over 500 miles per week over the last couple of years, that works out to the following yearly costs for oil changes:

    Conv-3K: $756.50 (51,000 mile calculation)
    Conv-4K: $578.50 (52,000 mile calculation)
    Syn-12K: $330.90 (52,000 mile calculation -- includes an estimated 5 quarts of make-up oil)

    As one can easily see, using synthetic oil is clearly cheaper than the cost of running regular oil and changing it more often.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    For me it is pretty much a toss-up...but conventional is slightly cheaper. We put 8000-10,000 miles per year on each car. Using conventional (actually semi-synthetic from Ford or mazda dealer), I change twice per year at a cost of $18-25 depending on the coupon I have at the time...so $36-50 per year. With synthetic, I'd change once per year and probably pay right around $50 (that is the cheapest I've gotten for my wife's Jetta that requires synthetic.

    Apparently the guys I hire to change my oil, don't expect $35 for their labor...or the dealership is not charging me the full cost of the labor. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Are you accounting for the time it takes you to get to your oil change place, waiting and then returning home?

    If you haven't, then the equation will tilt in favor of the synthetic oil.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    No, but it's maybe 5-10 minutes out of my way and I just read while waiting the 30-45 minutes...doing that in the car dealer's waiting room, rather than at home, is not much of a burden. So for the time and inconvenience, I might add maybe an extra 10 bucks per oil change.

    In the case of the Mazda, it's under mfr warranty, so I would change that according to their schedule anyway for now. In the case of the Ford, it is and has been being used by one kid or another and I try to let them have the responsibilty to take it in and wait :) .
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Got it. ;-)
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    I change twice per year at a cost of $18-25 depending on the coupon I have at the time

    Yep. The last three oil changes for my Mazda MPV I've either had coupons or specials for $19.99 per oil change at the dealership. That's 5 quarts of Valvoline 5w-20, OEM filter and a full circle inspection where my brakes, tires, battery and other components are checked, as well as having doors and hinges lubed. Can't beat that with a stick. ;)
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    Shipo,

    You can't ignore the need to meet the manufacturers change interval to ensure warranty stays valid. Nice to have extended oil change intervals enabled by synthetics, but if you have to change earlier then that is wasted money.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "You can't ignore the need to meet the manufacturers change interval to ensure warranty stays valid."

    Actually I can and do. After the first oil change I convert my cars over to synthetic oil (assuming that they didn't come from the factory that way), and start using extended OCIs immediately thereafter. That said, I never recommend for others to violate the terms of their new car warranty. Of course the warranty doesn't last forever, and many folks that I know, myself included, plan on keeping their new cars well beyond the warranty period. FWIW, the warranty period on our oldest car expired 120,000 miles ago. ;-)

    "Nice to have extended oil change intervals enabled by synthetics, but if you have to change earlier then that is wasted money."

    Wasted money? Maybe, depends upon the car. Forgetting for a moment the cars that come from the factory that require synthetic oil, there are still plenty of benefits for using it.
    - Better cold start capabilities in the winter
    - Better cold start early flow properties all year round
    - Greater ability to withstand heat in extreme summer weather
    - Greater ability to keep the inside of the engine clean
    - Superior ability to resist "coking" within turbocharger bearings (if your car is so equipped)

    True, the immediate cost savings aren't available from extended OCIs, but that doesn't mean that you aren't getting some benefit from running a synthetic oil.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Speaking of absurd, your math is fractured! Oil change labor is $10 per vehicle these days, as I see the practice in action locally. Analysis: You are entertained by synthetic usage, while I am entertained by seeking the lowest possible price-- and both are for a quality oil change. Now we are both entertained! And my fun is just as funner than yours! ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    No, my math is in perfect working order. I never said I paid $70 per hour for labor, the labor reference was to account my lost opportunity cost for when I do the oil changes myself. I know you've heard the old saying, "Time is money", and that is exactly how I look at it.

    As for being entertained, nope, the less I have to fuss with the cars the better, I have many better and more profitable things that I could otherwise be doing.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    is it ok to use no smoke treatment on a continous basis or do i have to spend hundreds of dollars to have the bluish smoke mystery rectified(97 expedition xlt 4x4 146,000mi) :(
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Back when I used to turn a wrench for a living, the quick "fix" for a smoking car was to put in spark plugs that were a couple of heat ranges hotter (higher numeric value in the plug identifier). I don't remember a single incident where that didn't work, I mean geez, it even worked on the worst smokers of all, Chevy Vegas. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's interesting. Why do you think that worked for you?

    Or do you mean it didn't cut consumption but rather kept the plugs from fouling?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yeah, it did nothing for consumption, however, it did keep the plugs from fouling and it eliminated the blue smoke screen issuing forth from the exhaust pipe. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay that makes sense.

    I don't know what this "smoke treatment" is but really there's nothing you can do for oil consumption if it is caused by internal engine wear. Nothing in a can fixes worn piston rings.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Or worn valve guides for that matter. That said, tyrip doesn't appear to like the answers I've given him and has seemingly tuned me out, maybe he'll listen to you. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Obviously not a gm person. oil life monitor for the malibu 9k miles, h3 12k miles. do you really want to go that long, anywhere especially texas, on dino oil (mobil dino at the dealer).
  • tyriptyrip Member Posts: 13
    on the contrary....i do respect your opinion,but others have opinions also.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    but others have opinions also.

    True enough; the difference is that Shipo actually knows what he's talking about...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    :blush:
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    Shipo, habe you heard anything about the new Honda/Acura HTO-06 certification? I use Mobil 1 5W-30 in my Mazdaspeed and it meets the standard, and is apparently the factory fill for the RDX. All I've been able to find out is that HTO-06 oils are designed for extended drains and enhanced thermal stability in turbocharged engines.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong, however, I was under the impression that the oil "Requested and Required" by Honda for the Turbo RDX is Mobil 1 0W-20. Yes, no? :confuse:

    I'll do a little research and write you back. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    I was under the impression that the oil "Requested and Required" by Honda for the Turbo RDX is Mobil 1 0W-20.

    I thought so too- until I found this. :surprise:

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

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