Of interest take this for what it is worth Amsoil not to long ago right after Mobil introduction of their tri formula, Amsoil states they bought some of their oil and tested it to see if they were still the best in the industry they wrote Mobil back and stated this. You should have stuck with you're earlier formulations had better wear protection than current tri formulation. Now this is not to say that their formula is lax with regard to protection, changes to formulations occur constantly that statement was made earlier on, when they introduced the Tri synthetic could have been improved upon since then.
I do recall and have the article it included 2 quad motors from gm at which point, they tested them respectively for extended drain capablities the first was draind every 7,500 mile an the second motor was drained every 15,000 the conclusion was that both measured out at new specs, the shorter drain didn't seem to effect much of a difference compared to the 15,000 mile drain, I believe the duration was 200,000 miles. And I point out that was there old formulation.
The oil bible http://www.motor-oil-bible.com/oil-bible.html sounds good to me, feel that the 3 month or 3000 mile oil change is overkill for most of us, I just heard about the attack on the US, its hard to imagine, Edmunds townhall is helping to keep my mind off it. Rob Fruth Houston http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth/
... that impressed with the "Motor oil Bible". It has been a while since I last looked at it and I don't quite remember why I thought that way about it. I just thought I'd state that for the record. >:^)
arjay1, 2-4% gain in efficiency IS a significant factor in the cost equation. Say you spend $500 per year, that is $10-20 savings per year which, along with things like buying fewer filters (assuming just slightly longer drain intervals) makes the syn vs. dino comparison essentially a financial wash.
When I started a new job and wanted to re-familiarize myself with Microsoft Excel, I made a spreadsheet where you could input all kinds of variables (oil change interval, price of fuel, price of oil, price of filter, etc ...) and see how your annual costs change.
After all was said and done, I was surprised that after tweaking all the variables this way and that, it added up to only about $10 either way each year ... which is a pittance when looking at how much it costs to keep a car on the road these days ... usually thousands each year, assuming you occasionally purchase new cars. >;^)
chikoo, many of us think that Castrol (and others) are pulling a fast one by selling "improved" dino oil ... which costs about half as much to make as PAO ... at a full synthetic retail price. It's just sleazy. If they publicly made a big deal about this new formulation AND reduced the price, that'd be something else entirely. The fact that they RADICALLY changed their formula AND did everything quietly tells me they are up to no good.
I think the mobil1.com web pages give the best easy to understand information of syn oils (when the site is working!!!). Naturally there is a lot of propaganda here, but I don't think the sleeze factor (like Castrol) is offensive.
I agree with brojace about the Castrol. Synth. When I read the article on hudrocracked oils one of the main ideas was to have full synth performance at a reduced price. Now let's see the reduced price and I'll use it. For now I'll stick with Mobile 1 which I just started using after decades of Dino.
I think that a large factor about extended changes is never mentioned. Whether severe driving is used. I have one car that is mostly used for local driving and to haul the dog to the vet. It takes 6-7 months to reach 3,000 miles.
Needless to say this vehicle does not get extended oil changes.
Hi, Folks! Forgive me for not reading all 712 previous posts to see if someone has already addressed this question: does synthetic oil not keep seals and gaskets as soft as refined dino oil?
I am a FIRM believer in Mobil 1 synthetic and have used it in all of my vehicles since my first experience with it on a '94 Z 28. I immediately got quieter cold starts and about one mile per gallon better gas mileage on that Z 28 when I switched it to Mobil 1.
I have always had fairly low mileage vehicles, however, because I have traded so often. Well, now I have bought an '89 S-10 with 134,502 miles on it. I have already put about 3400 miles on it since I bought it, and at 2700 miles I had the oil changed and had them put regular 5W-30 Valvoline in it. (I had to take a trip and would have gone over 3K miles if I had waited until I got back from my trip, so I had it changed before I left.)
The truck has the 2.8 V6 engine and runs great. In those first 2700 miles, it had used only about a fourth of a quart of oil, according to the dipstick.
I have so far stayed away from my good old Mobil 1 because of that question about the seals and gaskets. Is there anything to that about synthetics allowing the seals and gaskets to harden worse than would regualar oil?
Also, has anyone any experience with Valvoline Max Life? It is supposedly formulated specifically for higher mileage vehicles. All hype????
oil seals is a 1970's issue that was quickly corrected. Modern oils now use ethers that soften seals just like conventional. The problem is that syn will leak more out of existing holes, being uniform sized. ON your car with 27,000K shouldn't be a worry.
Valvoline won't release any information about what ingredients are put in their oils. I asked. I suspect they are using some hydrocracked oil in the mix. Soft seals is a characteristic of hydrocracked oil.
Thanks a bunch for your reply, but my truck doesn't have 27,000 miles on it; it has 137,9xx miles on it.
I was saying in my previous post that I had put 2700 miles on the truck since I bought it, and it had used about a fourth of a quart of oil by then.
I had the oil changed before starting on a trip that was going to put an additional 500 miles on it and would have caused me to go over the 3000 mile interval for an oil change.
My oil consumption has gone up some since I have started driving faster. At first, I didn't know how good an engine I had, and I didn't want to push it. As I gained confidence in the engine, I increased my cruising speed from the 60 to 65 range up to 70 to 72. The oil comsumption is still not bad, but it looks like I might have to add a quart between changes at the rate it is going now. (Or, I guess I could slow down again.)
So, should I use synthetic under these circumstances, or would the Max Life from Valvoline be a good choice?
If you are at 137k on the odometer you could probably benefit from some thicker oil. I have never used the maxlife, but the bottle says it contains seal conditioners and you can get that seperately and add it to any oil, you can also replace 1 qt of oil with the diesel rated oils (15w40 like Rotella-t) and get some extra detergent action. I think the 5w30 is good for newer engines but with some higher mileage now some better PROTECTION might be in order.. Any additional thoughts anyone?
why would you switch to a higher weight oil??? My 92 Camry has 137,000 and no idications and have used 10W30 synthetic every 7,500 miles since switching at 1000 miles. I would never consider a 10W40 or 15W50 just based upon mileage.
TSJAY made a comment about oil consumption had increased since he had started driving a little faster, driving a little faster should not have made any change in oil consumption. The previous owner could have been using thicker oil already, maybe adding some STP ?? who knows?? and now that he has put newer oil that is thinner than previous and maybe is cleaning up some buildup in the rings/valve guides that had built up previously and is now seeing some oil consumption.....I have known several people who bought used cars with 100k+ miles that when they first changed the oil noticed some consumption after a couple thousand miles, also some who had severe engine probs (fatal!) after that first change to a lighter oil,,,,,no guarantee that the original owner used synthetic over the vehicle's previous life. I had always used Fram filters in my 89 Nissan truck, looking back now after what I know now those filters were probably bypassing half the time, good thing I always change oil at 3k . I probably put in some good wear over the first 140k miles doing that! Now I use better filters (I notice no startup rattle any more and I use 10w40 and add some STP now) engine is running much better now...) I know I am not going back to thinner oil at this point. I am just going by other people's experience (and my own)
Check for Seal gasket leaks. I had a leak in my valve cover. It was in the back and didn't show up front until recently.It was replaced for under $100.00 and I found that on this last 3,000 miles I have only consumed about 3 ounces of oil.
Mechanics can put an additive in the oil to locate leaks under ultraviolet light to pinpoint the source of the problem.
I wouldn't change over to syn until all seals were checked.
If Maxlife is the quality of their other products, I would not hesitate to try it.
I think that maybe it was just on that trip I took that my oil comsumption went up a little. It seems to have leveled off now that I am back on my normal daily driving.
One of you guys said that higher speeds would not cause increased oil consumption. I am surprised by that statement, but I can't argue the point. I just assumed that the more strain the engine was under, the more oil it would use, and with the higher oil pressure at higher RPM's it would seem logical that you might push some out somewhere.
At any rate, I have just about decided that I will try the Max Life at the time of my next oil change. With the winter temps here in western Ky hardly ever getting lower than 10° F, should I consider 10W-30 rather than 5W-30?
Thanks again, and, anyone else, please jump in here with your opinion too.
Higher speed produces higher engine RPM. At higher engine RPM an increased volume of oil is thrown onto the cylinder walls from the rod bearing journals and spit holes in the rod big ends. If the oil rings on the pistons have some wear they might not be able to keep up with the increased oil volume they have to scrape off the cylinder walls at higher RPM, hence increased oil consumption.
The oil pump will pump more oil at higher rpm but that does not always mean more oil pressure..depending on the motor, there is a pressure bypass (relief) valve either in the oil filter or at the inlet to the oil filter that prevents a high pressure buildup at that point if the filter is clogged/blocked. (My Nissan has valve in filter, my chevs have valve in oil filter mount) If the motor allowed too much pressure buildup there would be leaks at all the seals, like when the PCV is clogged you get oil leaks at the valve covers because of pressure buildup.. example is like a water hose won't bust just because you have the water turned on high, but there will be more water coming out, now if you cap the end and wait awhile it will start leaking somewhere.. Unless you have leaks that are visible, any oil consumption would be due to burning either due to poor piston ring seal/oil control or due to the valve guides/seals.... now if you use synthetic oil hopefully you get less wear at these places and your engines lasts a long long time (your crankshaft/camshaft bearings get alot of benefit from it too), the question everyone wonders is if it is really worth the difference$$$$ (change cheap oil more often or change better oil less often???)...My Nissan is at 180K now and I used regular Castrol, My last Nissan was at 189k when I sold it, only used castrol 20w50 (lived in Florida..)
I also agree that there is more oil consumption for the reasons that alcan states. You could try one quart of 15W-50 Mobil 1 mixed in with the rest of the oil. That cut consumption in half on my Toyota from about a half quart for 4000 mi.
I really, really appreciate all the repsonses about which oil to use, and about oil comsumption.
I have some time now, since the oil was just changed about 800 miles ago, so let's see what happens with the oil comsumption. I honestly think that it was the trip and all the miles at higher speed that seemingly increased the oil consumption. Remember, in the first 2700 miles after I bought the truck, it only used about a fourth of a quart of oil.
On that trip immediately after my oil change, the truck used about a fourth of a quart in 500 miles.
Now that I'm back to my regular commuting, which is 27 miles one way to work, let's see what she does. I will be back to driving between 60 and 65 MPH again.
Even if I end up adding one quart of oil between changes, that wouldn't be the end of the world.
That little 2.8 runs great, so I can't believe it has lost much compression, and, therefore, I think the rings must be in decent shape. If the rings were bad on even one cylinder, you would think that the spark plug for that cylinder would eventually foul and cause the engine to run rough.
I only paid $2450 with tax and everything for that truck, and I still think I got a steal!
I used max life for 3000 miles in my old ford with 151000 miles.The engine started leaking oil and the consumption increased.Changed back to regular valvoline 10/30,after 6000 miles and two oil changes later no leaks and very little oil consumption.Save your money,it's too expensive.
Another possibility with your vehicle might be the following scenario: driven for relatively short consecutive trips, condensation builds up in the crankcase at the same rate oil's being consumed. Oil level reads the same. Take it for a long enough trip to fully normalize the engine. Moisture is evaporated and purged through the PCV valve. Now the level reads low on the dipstick.
It happens on all cars and does not show up on the dipstick as white goo but can be a few ounces of oil on the dipstick. (without moisture the oil level would be a few ounces down)I have seen this on multiple cars where the oil is full on the dipstick drive it hard for a distance and the moisture evaporates off and when you get back to normal routine add some oil teh usage goes back to normal.
That's exactly right! That's sorta what I was saying in post #724.
As far as the condensation theory, please remember that I just had my oil changed before starting on that trip. I literally left the shop where the oil was changed and started that long trip right from there. So, there should have been no condensation at the start of my trip when the dipstick showed full (And, yes, we did check the dipstick after starting the truck and letting it run to fill up the filter and to check for leaks.)
So, I left town with a fresh oil change and the oil level exactly on the full mark.
After the 500 mile trip, the dipstick showed that I had used approximately one fourth of a quart of oil. As you said, gmlover1, that translates to a quart of oil used in 2000 miles, and that is not bad at all.
OK, I got my owners manual in the mail today (had to order one from Helm, Inc., since I didn't get one with the truck when I bought it).
Well, lo and behold, it says that I should add four and a half quarts of oil at the time of the oil change, if the filter is also changed. I always have the filter changed when I have the oil changed.
The boys at the shop where I had the oil changed only added four quarts. I told them that's what it was supposed to get, because I thought that was right at the time. My cousin has an 87 S-10 with the 2.5 four cylinder engine, and we looked in his owners manual, finding that the 2.8 L should get four quarts with filter change. Maybe they went to a bigger filter between '87 and '89? I did have an AC filter put on (PF52).
But here's the funny thing... after adding only four quarts, starting the engine and letting it run a few minutes, and finally checking the oil level on the dipstick, we saw that the oil level was exactly on the full mark at the top of the cross-hatched area that indicates the "normal operating range."
What's the deal? If we had put four and a half quarts of oil in the engine, like the owners manual says we should have, then wouldn't the oil level on the dipstick have shown that the engine had too much oil?
Did my truck really use that "fourth of a quart" of oil on that 500 mile trip, or did the engine simply not have enough oil to start with?
Move on-start over. Check it cold-like in the morning with the vehicle parked level. Insure the dipstick is down all of the way. Usually the manuals are accurate. Although I recall Chevy manuals are rather vague. My '92 Corsica 3.1 requires 4.0 qt. and "up to a quart may be needed with filter replacement" My filter is a PF-47 which is much smaller than the PF-52.
How much oil do I have them put in? I will have the filter changed, like I alays do. Should we only put in four quarts and, if the dipstick shows that the oil is exactly on the full mark, just call it good with the four quarts?
Should we put in the 4.5 quarts like the owners manual says and not worry if the oil level goes above the "normal operating range?"
I have always heard that too much oil "ain't good."
Heck, maybe that's not the right dipstick for that engine. I have no history on that truck at all, and it's possible that the previous owner for whatever reason got a different dipstick.
I would just keep it at the full mark and not let it drop much below. That way you know you will not be on the low - low end. In the mean time you could check with Chevrolet and possibly hit the junk yards for checking the length of the dipstick. Like you said, you don't want to get too high. 1/4 in above full won't hurt, but don't get any higher. Hopefully someone here has that engine and will be able to help. Bottom line just keep it at the full line for now (IMHO)
my vehicle mfr calls for a 5000mile/5months oil change interval.
i'm considering switching to Castrol Syntec. I was wondering whether it could last that long, or whether its lifespan was limited to 3000miles/3months.
any help would be appreciated. btw my car is a 99 mazda protege
So, if you check your oil say about 10 min after running the engine hot you will get a higher reading even though not all oil has dripped back down into the pan. To get a consistent reading I let my car sit overnight and check it when cold. At least this is consistent in terms of the liquid having cooled and the oil having accumulated in the pan. Hot engine checks are only good for seeing if oil really low but not for topping off. Coolant expands, tranny fluid expands and so does oil although not as much.
If the manual says 4.5 qrts I would put that in and or go though the process of exact measuring which will take some effort the first time. Also, the amount of time you let the oil drain makes a difference,. quick lubes maybe 5-10 minutes. I let mine drain overnight and I will bet I get 2-4 more ounces of oil that drips out overnight, not much but if you are measuring half quarts 16 ounces, it does make a little difference. Two of my cars call for 4 and 5/8 quarts which is 4 qrts 20 ounces but with the overnight drains it takes 22 ounces to bring it up to full.
For the post looking to use Castrol Syntec, false and misleading adverstising. This is the kind of marketing that makes the american public furious, should be fraud in mu opinion!
Yes, I'm another that thinks Castrol tried to throw a high 'n hard one by the motoring public with the secret switcharoo. Sure, they won in court and you can't PROVE that what they did with their synthetic formula was underhanded ... but it still smells sleazy to me.
Back to earlier points, I think the fact that oil consumption goes up when the RPMs increase is attributed to a lot of factors all happening at once. In addition to what has already been mentioned, don't forget that mineral oil and its multi-viscosity additives thin out at higher RPMs and higher temperatures. Don't assume this is a steady progression, either. Graphing the oil's ability to hold up under heat and stress caused by higher RPMs will show plateaus and drop-offs. With your driving habits, you might very well have discovered a point where the oil's protection begins to fail considerably. Remember these 5W30 (and 5W20!) everyday oils are essentially economy lubes for the everyday user. they are NOT designed for serious, high-performance (high-RPM) applications.
Vidtech, really? I had an Acura Integra which saw synthetic oil 90% of its life. I sold it to a close friend and it now has 170,000 miles on it and was starting to go through oil. When he switched over to Valvoline Max-Life the car began to use less oil (a combo of leaking and consumption). Really, knowing Valvoline's impeccable reputation, I would still recommend using this stuff in an older engine.
As for oil consumption, my Honda Civic made it to 100,000 miles without me having to add even a drop of motor oil between changes ... and I went about 6,000 miles between oil and filter changes. It sprung a light, weepy leak but switching to Redline Synthetic oil has seemed to stop this.
I will call my friendly neighborhood Chevy dealer to get the proper part number for the dipstick for an '89 S-10, 2WD, 2.8L V6. I went to the gm.com web site an submitted this question, and I suppose they will get back to me in a day or two, but I'll just check with the dealer tomorrow.
I am seriously beginning to think that I may not have the right one. I have just completed another long trip, and it appears that the truck used not a bit of oil since that initial drop from the first trip.
Now, I'm wondering if the truck actually used any oil on that first trip, or if it was already low because we only put 4.0 quarts in it instead of 4.5 quarts.
Like I said, we ran the engine a couple minutes after completing the oil change, and then checked the dipstick. I saw with my own eyes that the indicated level was right on the full mark. Could this somehow have been a false reading???
Oh well, we'll see about that part number.
BTW, that little S-10 performed flawlessly on this second trip. I got 27.0 MPG going up to Illinois and 25.6 MPG coming back, but that tank included some in-town driving before I started the return trip.
According to both the GM web site and my local Chevy dealer, I have the right dipstick. I also have confirmation that I have the right filter (PF51 has been discontinued and replaced by the PF52).
So, I am now wondering if the fact that the enigne had not been warmed up prior to the oil drain might explain why I got a "full" reading on the dipstick after only 4.0 quarts had been added instead of the 4.5 quarts called for in the owners manual. Could there have been a half a quart of oil left in the engine, since the egine was still cold?
Its probably not worth any more sleep. It seems not to use oil. And if it full in the morning on level ground its over. I assume that the filter is vertical. Sometimes when they are horizontal the level can be higher in the morning because of leakage through the anti drainback valve. The PF 51/52 is a large filter and probably holds at least half a quart. If its vertical, fill it first. Take your time because it will continue to drop as paper gets saturated, etc. Measure the amount that it takes and then add the remainder to get to the 4.5 qts. Tthe 3.1 L engine I believe is similar to the 2.8 and the Pan and block are probably very close. I assume the 3.1 is just stroked or bored.
Hey, can we talk filters in here? I guess there's a separate message board for filters?
Looks like it would be appropriate to have discussions about filters in the same message board with oil discussions.
My question is about filter by-passing. How much of the time is the typical spin-on full flow oil filter actually operating in the by-pass mode?
I know there's a valve in the bottom of the filter that opens to allow the oil to by-pass the paper element when the restiction is above a certain level. This allows unfiltered oil to get back to the engine, which is a whole lot better than no oil getting back.
I guess this happens when the filter has been in service too long and gets clogged, but I think it also happens on cold starts when the oil viscosity is very high.
How long on cold starts is the filter by-passing?
How about these very high efficiency (therefore high restriction) filters? Are they in the by-pass mode more of the time than less efficient, lower restriction filters? If so, are they any better than a lower efficiency filter in the long run?
I know that Motorcraft filters up until several years ago were partial flow filters, where about 15% of the oil went through a very efficient cotton batting that gave fine filtration, and the other 85% of the oil went through something that just caught the "nuts and bolts." I guess the Fords lasted as long as any cars, so the filters must have done the job.
By pass at start up and depending on outside temp the oil could pump arouond the filter media for a minute or so until warm enough to flow. Need a filter engineer on this one as to how long it takes to push cold oil though one. As to pumping unfiltered oil through I have no problem doing so for minutes as you said, oil is better then none and how much debris capable of wearing an engine can be created and pass through the engine in even 5 minutes. I remember when filters did not exist on engines and the recommneded change interval was every 1000 miles.
Doubtful any filter gets enough contaminants to actually go into bypass mode at full warm up.
I thought this may help to understand proper oil level. Had recieved it from a chemical engineer.
What is PROPER Oil Level?
Proper Oil Level is perhaps the most important but also the most often overlooked aspect of engine maintenance.
Many self proclaimed automotive experts and maintenance fanatics incorrectly promote the idea that more is better than less.
This is only partially true.
The maintenance of proper oil level is very important for minimizing of "Oil Consumption", minimizing the engine mechanical wear and avoiding serious mechanical problems.
Excess oil level causes excessive oil consumption and oil burning during combustion process. Oil burning causes fouled plugs, and greatly increases emission of exhaust pollutants. Too much oil in the exhaust can lead to plugging or damage of catalytic converters. Serious excess of oil in engine (two quarts or more) can cause engine fires for various reasons. Serious mechanical damage such as cracked piston rings can result from excess oil level.
Oil level therefore must never be above the FULL or MAX mark on you dipstick. If you accidentally add too much oil, drain the excess at once. This is one instance where more is not better !
Proper oil level is between the MIN (LOW or ADD) and MAX (FULL) marks on your dipstick.
The area or distance between MIN and MAX marks usually represents one quart or one liter in most cars (one quart is slightly less than one liter, 1 quart = .946 liter; or conversely one liter is 1.8 ounces more than one quart).
When adding oil never add full quart if the oil level is at or above the MIN mark. Add about 8 ounces or 16 ounces, wait few minutes check the oil level, and add more only if necessary.
The ideal oil level is just slightly above the MIN mark and well below the MAX mark, this will minimize oil consumption and minimize engine wear.
Oil level too low, that is one quart less than minimum will in some engines cause damage, but most engines can operate on as little as two quarts or less without any damage.
Oil capacity of 4 to 6 quarts is typical for most engines, although some small foreign cars use only 3 quarts, some large engines and trucks may use 8 quarts or more.
If you can not determine your engine's oil capacity from your Owner's Manual, install three quarts after oil drain, start engine for few minutes, stop engine wait 5 minutes, check oil level and add about half quart, check oil level again and add more oil until you reach the MIN mark. Then note how many quarts are required for your car. Do not add more than about half quart at a time and allow time for oil to drain to the oil pan, to prevent over filling.
Oil filters despite their apparent size only hold 4 to 8 ounces of oil, but the really large ones used in commercial trucks and busses can hold up to a quart.
Once engine is started as much as two quarts may be in circulation, when engine is stopped it takes about five minutes for oil to drain back to the oil pan and if oil level is checked immediately after engine is shut down, low reading on a dipstick will result even if oil quantity is adequate. Therefore be sure that enough time has been allowed for oil to drain down to the pan.
Best habit is to check oil when engine is cold and before driving in the morning, this is not only the most accurate technique to verify the oil level, but also avoids any possible burns from contact with hot engine parts.
However you must be sure that the car is level when parked, otherwise inaccurate reading of oil level may result.
Contrary to popular belief it is not necessary to maintain the oil level at the FULL (MAX) mark.
Experience and on road performance tests show that oil consumption can be as much as four times higher if oil level is maintained at the FULL (MAX) mark, as compared to an operation when the oil level is maintained at the LOW (MIN or ADD) mark on the dipstick.
Another popular argument is that engine with more oil will run cooler, but this is not true.
However, it will take longer for the oil to reach its normal operating temperature.
It is an error to assume that with the use of more oil, that the oil temperature will be reduced. If the amount of oil increases, the quantity of heat transferred to it also increases, but the operating temperature is not affected.
Further disadvantage of using more oil than the necessary minimum for safe engine operation is that the cold running period will be prolonged, this contributes to less efficiency, cold sludge formation and greater engine wear.
Therefore for minimum oil consumption, maximum engine efficiency and maximum engine life, maintain your oil level just slightly above the MIN (ADD or LOW) mark and well below the MAX (FULL) mark.
Also remember that just because most motor oils are sold in one quart or one liter containers, there is no law that said that you must add a full quart. Add only what is necessary, be it 4 ounces or whatever.
In the past this was quite difficult advice to follow because most oil was supplied in solid paper/metal cans that had to be punctured in order to pour the oil out. Once the can was punctured there was little choice, the oil had to be poured out, be it into the engine or somewhere else.
Today the trend is to supply the lubricating oil in plastic containers with screw on/off cap, and some even have "see-through" calibrated gauge that indicates how much oil is left in the container, therefore adding only as much oil as is needed is much more practical. The plastic container can be re-sealed with the screw cap and there is no danger of spilling the remaining oil.
Thanks for the post. That supports what I have always heard: too much oil is not a good thing.
I have never heard that it is good to keep the oil just above the "add" mark, though. I'm not disputing what you say, it's just that I have never heard that before.
And while I agree (or cannot really disagree) with most of your logic I also don't support the Idea of keeping the oil just above the minimum mark. The manufactures have built into the system the "idiot" factor. While I cannot prove that keeping the oil at the full mark will not burn or otherwise use more oil my experience over the years says it will not. In my mind the other reasons to keep it near the full mark is that in the event of a small leak or otherwise forgetting to check the oil you have a built in reserve. The other issue is that with say 25% more oil the oil "works" less and therefore will last longer.
Based upon many many years and many many cars keeping the oil level near or at the max level does not contribute to oil consumption or engine deterioration. Although it may take longer to heat to operating temp once there it cools better, lubricates for a longer life span of the oil and assures some protection against leaking and usage. Overfilling is bad but the min mark is even worse IMHO. Too many cars today use oil and this would be too dangerous ( even if the poster is correct) to do for those that do not check oil regularly
Gentlemen while I'm not advocating this nor is this an idea I'm purporting I'm just bring some data or info to bear on the subject matter which was conveyed to me. Yet I feel that an in part it does have some sound logic.
This is not the first I've heard of this procedure, over the years I've heard many mechanics and military mechanics practice this procedure with no damage to there motors one reason is that petro molecules expand when heated and actually increase the volume of oil in the crankcase thereby placing strain on the valve covers and seals in the motor
While I've always kept my motor oil level between the min and max marks I have to say I 've experienced success with less oil consumption religously monitoring my oil level.
So I believe there is merit to some of the reasons conveyed by that chemical engineer to me it seems if one aspect of reasoning worked, more than likely the other inherent benefits may follow
Additionally many of the car manufacturers I read in lookin up the oil capacity have stated that one should maintain there oil at the operating level and usually they reference the point on the dipstick between min and max, I've never come across in my years of a car manufacturer manual expressly saying to maintain oil level at the FULL OR MAXIMUM MARK or engine damage will be iminent or warranty will be voided.
I've been using amsoil 0w-30 with yrly drain. Consumption went from a pint in year (15000 miles )to half a pint within the same time frame
I will have lost 25% of my oil capacity. I won't allow it to run on only 3 quarts of oil. Sometimes I have even run slightly high (before I consulted this board and new better) with no serious adverse affects.
Comments
It did convince me however to switch to synthetic on the vehicle with the hardest working engine, and it seems to do a good job.
arjay1, 2-4% gain in efficiency IS a significant factor in the cost equation. Say you spend $500 per year, that is $10-20 savings per year which, along with things like buying fewer filters (assuming just slightly longer drain intervals) makes the syn vs. dino comparison essentially a financial wash.
When I started a new job and wanted to re-familiarize myself with Microsoft Excel, I made a spreadsheet where you could input all kinds of variables (oil change interval, price of fuel, price of oil, price of filter, etc ...) and see how your annual costs change.
After all was said and done, I was surprised that after tweaking all the variables this way and that, it added up to only about $10 either way each year ... which is a pittance when looking at how much it costs to keep a car on the road these days ... usually thousands each year, assuming you occasionally purchase new cars. >;^)
chikoo, many of us think that Castrol (and others) are pulling a fast one by selling "improved" dino oil ... which costs about half as much to make as PAO ... at a full synthetic retail price. It's just sleazy. If they publicly made a big deal about this new formulation AND reduced the price, that'd be something else entirely. The fact that they RADICALLY changed their formula AND did everything quietly tells me they are up to no good.
--- Bror Jace
Needless to say this vehicle does not get extended oil changes.
I am a FIRM believer in Mobil 1 synthetic and have used it in all of my vehicles since my first experience with it on a '94 Z 28. I immediately got quieter cold starts and about one mile per gallon better gas mileage on that Z 28 when I switched it to Mobil 1.
I have always had fairly low mileage vehicles, however, because I have traded so often. Well, now I have bought an '89 S-10 with 134,502 miles on it. I have already put about 3400 miles on it since I bought it, and at 2700 miles I had the oil changed and had them put regular 5W-30 Valvoline in it. (I had to take a trip and would have gone over 3K miles if I had waited until I got back from my trip, so I had it changed before I left.)
The truck has the 2.8 V6 engine and runs great. In those first 2700 miles, it had used only about a fourth of a quart of oil, according to the dipstick.
I have so far stayed away from my good old Mobil 1 because of that question about the seals and gaskets. Is there anything to that about synthetics allowing the seals and gaskets to harden worse than would regualar oil?
Also, has anyone any experience with Valvoline Max Life? It is supposedly formulated specifically for higher mileage vehicles. All hype????
thanks
tom
Valvoline won't release any information about what ingredients are put in their oils. I asked. I suspect they are using some hydrocracked oil in the mix. Soft seals is a characteristic of hydrocracked oil.
I was saying in my previous post that I had put 2700 miles on the truck since I bought it, and it had used about a fourth of a quart of oil by then.
I had the oil changed before starting on a trip that was going to put an additional 500 miles on it and would have caused me to go over the 3000 mile interval for an oil change.
My oil consumption has gone up some since I have started driving faster. At first, I didn't know how good an engine I had, and I didn't want to push it. As I gained confidence in the engine, I increased my cruising speed from the 60 to 65 range up to 70 to 72. The oil comsumption is still not bad, but it looks like I might have to add a quart between changes at the rate it is going now. (Or, I guess I could slow down again.)
So, should I use synthetic under these circumstances, or would the Max Life from Valvoline be a good choice?
tom
Any additional thoughts anyone?
The previous owner could have been using thicker oil already, maybe adding some STP ?? who knows??
and now that he has put newer oil that is thinner than previous and maybe is cleaning up some buildup in the rings/valve guides that had built up previously and is now seeing some oil consumption.....I have known several people who bought used cars with 100k+ miles that when they first changed the oil noticed some consumption after a couple thousand miles, also some who had severe engine probs (fatal!) after that first change to a lighter oil,,,,,no guarantee that the original owner used synthetic over the vehicle's previous life.
I had always used Fram filters in my 89 Nissan truck, looking back now after what I know now those filters were probably bypassing half the time, good thing I always change oil at 3k . I probably put in some good wear over the first 140k miles doing that! Now I use better filters (I notice no startup rattle any more and I use 10w40 and add some STP now) engine is running much better now...) I know I am not going back to thinner oil at this point. I am just going by other people's experience (and my own)
Mechanics can put an additive in the oil to locate leaks under ultraviolet light to pinpoint the source of the problem.
I wouldn't change over to syn until all seals were checked.
If Maxlife is the quality of their other products, I would not hesitate to try it.
I think that maybe it was just on that trip I took that my oil comsumption went up a little. It seems to have leveled off now that I am back on my normal daily driving.
One of you guys said that higher speeds would not cause increased oil consumption. I am surprised by that statement, but I can't argue the point. I just assumed that the more strain the engine was under, the more oil it would use, and with the higher oil pressure at higher RPM's it would seem logical that you might push some out somewhere.
At any rate, I have just about decided that I will try the Max Life at the time of my next oil change. With the winter temps here in western Ky hardly ever getting lower than 10° F, should I consider 10W-30 rather than 5W-30?
Thanks again, and, anyone else, please jump in here with your opinion too.
tom
If the motor allowed too much pressure buildup there would be leaks at all the seals, like when the PCV is clogged you get oil leaks at the valve covers because of pressure buildup..
example is like a water hose won't bust just because you have the water turned on high, but there will be more water coming out, now if you cap the end and wait awhile it will start leaking somewhere..
Unless you have leaks that are visible, any oil consumption would be due to burning either due to poor piston ring seal/oil control or due to the valve guides/seals....
now if you use synthetic oil hopefully you get less wear at these places and your engines lasts a long long time (your crankshaft/camshaft bearings get alot of benefit from it too), the question everyone wonders is if it is really worth the difference$$$$ (change cheap oil more often or change better oil less often???)...My Nissan is at 180K now and I used regular Castrol, My last Nissan was at 189k when I sold it, only used castrol 20w50 (lived in Florida..)
I have some time now, since the oil was just changed about 800 miles ago, so let's see what happens with the oil comsumption. I honestly think that it was the trip and all the miles at higher speed that seemingly increased the oil consumption. Remember, in the first 2700 miles after I bought the truck, it only used about a fourth of a quart of oil.
On that trip immediately after my oil change, the truck used about a fourth of a quart in 500 miles.
Now that I'm back to my regular commuting, which is 27 miles one way to work, let's see what she does. I will be back to driving between 60 and 65 MPH again.
Even if I end up adding one quart of oil between changes, that wouldn't be the end of the world.
That little 2.8 runs great, so I can't believe it has lost much compression, and, therefore, I think the rings must be in decent shape. If the rings were bad on even one cylinder, you would think that the spark plug for that cylinder would eventually foul and cause the engine to run rough.
I only paid $2450 with tax and everything for that truck, and I still think I got a steal!
Here's a pic...
tom
Anyone else have experience with Max Life? This is the first negative thing I've heard about it.
tom
Also, my truck hardly ever goes less than 27 miles when I start it up and go somewhere- it's usually to work in the AM and back in the evening.
thanks
tom
As far as the condensation theory, please remember that I just had my oil changed before starting on that trip. I literally left the shop where the oil was changed and started that long trip right from there. So, there should have been no condensation at the start of my trip when the dipstick showed full (And, yes, we did check the dipstick after starting the truck and letting it run to fill up the filter and to check for leaks.)
So, I left town with a fresh oil change and the oil level exactly on the full mark.
After the 500 mile trip, the dipstick showed that I had used approximately one fourth of a quart of oil. As you said, gmlover1, that translates to a quart of oil used in 2000 miles, and that is not bad at all.
tom
Well, lo and behold, it says that I should add four and a half quarts of oil at the time of the oil change, if the filter is also changed. I always have the filter changed when I have the oil changed.
The boys at the shop where I had the oil changed only added four quarts. I told them that's what it was supposed to get, because I thought that was right at the time. My cousin has an 87 S-10 with the 2.5 four cylinder engine, and we looked in his owners manual, finding that the 2.8 L should get four quarts with filter change. Maybe they went to a bigger filter between '87 and '89? I did have an AC filter put on (PF52).
But here's the funny thing... after adding only four quarts, starting the engine and letting it run a few minutes, and finally checking the oil level on the dipstick, we saw that the oil level was exactly on the full mark at the top of the cross-hatched area that indicates the "normal operating range."
What's the deal? If we had put four and a half quarts of oil in the engine, like the owners manual says we should have, then wouldn't the oil level on the dipstick have shown that the engine had too much oil?
Did my truck really use that "fourth of a quart" of oil on that 500 mile trip, or did the engine simply not have enough oil to start with?
Dazed and confused
tom
How much oil do I have them put in? I will have the filter changed, like I alays do. Should we only put in four quarts and, if the dipstick shows that the oil is exactly on the full mark, just call it good with the four quarts?
Should we put in the 4.5 quarts like the owners manual says and not worry if the oil level goes above the "normal operating range?"
I have always heard that too much oil "ain't good."
Heck, maybe that's not the right dipstick for that engine. I have no history on that truck at all, and it's possible that the previous owner for whatever reason got a different dipstick.
tom
Al
i'm considering switching to Castrol Syntec.
I was wondering whether it could last that long, or whether its lifespan was limited to 3000miles/3months.
any help would be appreciated.
btw my car is a 99 mazda protege
One other point: Syntec and Pennzoil are not true synthetics. They have taken advantage of loopholes in the law to call it a synthetic.
Mobil 1, Quaker State, Valvoline, Amsoil are true Synthetics. You might as well get one of these at the same price as Syntec.
The Synthetic Oil board has information on the subject.
If the manual says 4.5 qrts I would put that in and or go though the process of exact measuring which will take some effort the first time. Also, the amount of time you let the oil drain makes a difference,. quick lubes maybe 5-10 minutes. I let mine drain overnight and I will bet I get 2-4 more ounces of oil that drips out overnight, not much but if you are measuring half quarts 16 ounces, it does make a little difference. Two of my cars call for 4 and 5/8 quarts which is 4 qrts 20 ounces but with the overnight drains it takes 22 ounces to bring it up to full.
For the post looking to use Castrol Syntec, false and misleading adverstising. This is the kind of marketing that makes the american public furious, should be fraud in mu opinion!
Back to earlier points, I think the fact that oil consumption goes up when the RPMs increase is attributed to a lot of factors all happening at once. In addition to what has already been mentioned, don't forget that mineral oil and its multi-viscosity additives thin out at higher RPMs and higher temperatures. Don't assume this is a steady progression, either. Graphing the oil's ability to hold up under heat and stress caused by higher RPMs will show plateaus and drop-offs. With your driving habits, you might very well have discovered a point where the oil's protection begins to fail considerably. Remember these 5W30 (and 5W20!) everyday oils are essentially economy lubes for the everyday user. they are NOT designed for serious, high-performance (high-RPM) applications.
Vidtech, really? I had an Acura Integra which saw synthetic oil 90% of its life. I sold it to a close friend and it now has 170,000 miles on it and was starting to go through oil. When he switched over to Valvoline Max-Life the car began to use less oil (a combo of leaking and consumption). Really, knowing Valvoline's impeccable reputation, I would still recommend using this stuff in an older engine.
As for oil consumption, my Honda Civic made it to 100,000 miles without me having to add even a drop of motor oil between changes ... and I went about 6,000 miles between oil and filter changes. It sprung a light, weepy leak but switching to Redline Synthetic oil has seemed to stop this.
Bror Jace
I am seriously beginning to think that I may not have the right one. I have just completed another long trip, and it appears that the truck used not a bit of oil since that initial drop from the first trip.
Now, I'm wondering if the truck actually used any oil on that first trip, or if it was already low because we only put 4.0 quarts in it instead of 4.5 quarts.
Like I said, we ran the engine a couple minutes after completing the oil change, and then checked the dipstick. I saw with my own eyes that the indicated level was right on the full mark. Could this somehow have been a false reading???
Oh well, we'll see about that part number.
BTW, that little S-10 performed flawlessly on this second trip. I got 27.0 MPG going up to Illinois and 25.6 MPG coming back, but that tank included some in-town driving before I started the return trip.
tom
So, I am now wondering if the fact that the enigne had not been warmed up prior to the oil drain might explain why I got a "full" reading on the dipstick after only 4.0 quarts had been added instead of the 4.5 quarts called for in the owners manual. Could there have been a half a quart of oil left in the engine, since the egine was still cold?
Whatcha think, Guys?
tom
Looks like it would be appropriate to have discussions about filters in the same message board with oil discussions.
My question is about filter by-passing. How much of the time is the typical spin-on full flow oil filter actually operating in the by-pass mode?
I know there's a valve in the bottom of the filter that opens to allow the oil to by-pass the paper element when the restiction is above a certain level. This allows unfiltered oil to get back to the engine, which is a whole lot better than no oil getting back.
I guess this happens when the filter has been in service too long and gets clogged, but I think it also happens on cold starts when the oil viscosity is very high.
How long on cold starts is the filter by-passing?
How about these very high efficiency (therefore high restriction) filters? Are they in the by-pass mode more of the time than less efficient, lower restriction filters? If so, are they any better than a lower efficiency filter in the long run?
I know that Motorcraft filters up until several years ago were partial flow filters, where about 15% of the oil went through a very efficient cotton batting that gave fine filtration, and the other 85% of the oil went through something that just caught the "nuts and bolts." I guess the Fords lasted as long as any cars, so the filters must have done the job.
How 'bout some input here?
tom
Doubtful any filter gets enough contaminants to actually go into bypass mode at full warm up.
What is PROPER Oil Level?
Proper Oil Level is perhaps the most important but also the most often overlooked aspect of engine maintenance.
Many self proclaimed automotive experts and maintenance fanatics incorrectly promote the idea that more is better than less.
This is only partially true.
The maintenance of proper oil level is very important for minimizing of "Oil Consumption", minimizing the engine mechanical wear and avoiding serious mechanical problems.
Excess oil level causes excessive oil consumption and oil burning during combustion process. Oil burning causes fouled plugs, and greatly increases emission of exhaust pollutants. Too much oil in the exhaust can lead to plugging or damage of catalytic converters. Serious excess of oil in engine (two quarts or more) can cause engine fires for various reasons. Serious mechanical damage such as cracked piston rings can result from excess oil level.
Oil level therefore must never be above the FULL or MAX mark on you dipstick. If you accidentally add too much oil, drain the excess at once. This is one instance where more is not better !
Proper oil level is between the MIN (LOW or ADD) and MAX (FULL) marks on your dipstick.
The area or distance between MIN and MAX marks usually represents one quart or one liter in most cars (one quart is slightly less than one liter, 1 quart = .946 liter;
or conversely one liter is 1.8 ounces more than one quart).
When adding oil never add full quart if the oil level is at or above the MIN mark.
Add about 8 ounces or 16 ounces, wait few minutes check the oil level, and add more only if necessary.
The ideal oil level is just slightly above the MIN mark and well below the MAX mark, this will minimize oil consumption and minimize engine wear.
Oil level too low, that is one quart less than minimum will in some engines cause damage, but most engines can operate on as little as two quarts or less without any damage.
Oil capacity of 4 to 6 quarts is typical for most engines, although some small foreign cars use only 3 quarts, some large engines and trucks may use 8 quarts or more.
If you can not determine your engine's oil capacity from your Owner's Manual, install three quarts after oil drain, start engine for few minutes, stop engine wait 5 minutes, check oil level and add about half quart, check oil level again and add more oil until you reach the MIN mark. Then note how many quarts are required for your car. Do not add more than about half quart at a time and allow time for oil to drain to the oil pan, to prevent over filling.
Oil filters despite their apparent size only hold 4 to 8 ounces of oil, but the really large ones used in commercial trucks and busses can hold up to a quart.
Once engine is started as much as two quarts may be in circulation, when engine is stopped it takes about five minutes for oil to drain back to the oil pan and if oil level is checked immediately after engine is shut down, low reading on a dipstick will result even if oil quantity is adequate. Therefore be sure that enough time has been allowed for oil to drain down to the pan.
Best habit is to check oil when engine is cold and before driving in the morning, this is not only the most accurate technique to verify the oil level, but also avoids any possible burns from contact with hot engine parts.
However you must be sure that the car is level when parked, otherwise inaccurate reading of oil level may result.
Contrary to popular belief it is not necessary to maintain the oil level at the FULL (MAX) mark.
Experience and on road performance tests show that oil consumption can be as much as four times higher if oil level is maintained at the FULL (MAX) mark, as compared to an operation when the oil level is maintained at the LOW (MIN or ADD) mark on the dipstick.
Another popular argument is that engine with more oil will run cooler, but this is not true.
However, it will take longer for the oil to reach its normal operating temperature.
It is an error to assume that with the use of more oil, that the oil temperature will be reduced.
If the amount of oil increases, the quantity of heat transferred to it also increases, but the operating temperature is not affected.
Further disadvantage of using more oil than the necessary minimum for safe engine operation is that the cold running period will be prolonged, this contributes to less efficiency, cold sludge formation and greater engine wear.
Therefore for minimum oil consumption, maximum engine efficiency and maximum engine life, maintain your oil level just slightly above the MIN (ADD or LOW) mark and well below the MAX (FULL) mark.
Also remember that just because most motor oils are sold in one quart or one liter containers, there is no law that said that you must add a full quart. Add only what is necessary, be it 4 ounces or whatever.
In the past this was quite difficult advice to follow because most oil was supplied in solid paper/metal cans that had to be punctured in order to pour the oil out. Once the can was punctured there was little choice, the oil had to be poured out, be it into the engine or somewhere else.
Today the trend is to supply the lubricating oil in plastic containers with screw on/off cap, and some even have "see-through" calibrated gauge that indicates how much oil is left in the container, therefore adding only as much oil as is needed is much more practical. The plastic container can be re-sealed with the screw cap and there is no danger of spilling the remaining oil.
That is absolutely crazy!!!!!!! And, no reasons given for the statement!
I have never heard that it is good to keep the oil just above the "add" mark, though. I'm not disputing what you say, it's just that I have never heard that before.
tom
This is not the first I've heard of this procedure, over the years I've heard many mechanics and military mechanics practice this procedure with no damage to there motors one reason is that petro molecules expand when heated and actually increase the volume of oil in the crankcase thereby placing strain on the valve covers and seals in the motor
While I've always kept my motor oil level between the min and max marks I have to say I 've experienced success with less oil consumption religously monitoring my oil level.
So I believe there is merit to some of the reasons conveyed by that chemical engineer to me it seems if one aspect of reasoning worked, more than likely the other inherent benefits may follow
Additionally many of the car manufacturers I read in lookin up the oil capacity have stated that one should maintain there oil at the operating level and usually they reference the point on the dipstick between min and max, I've never come across in my years of a car manufacturer manual expressly saying to maintain oil level at the FULL OR MAXIMUM MARK or engine damage will be iminent or warranty will be voided.
I've been using amsoil 0w-30 with yrly drain. Consumption went from a pint in year (15000 miles )to half a pint within the same time frame