I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

stickguy · September 15

That a ‘,68? KR based on the side snake badge?

explorerx4 · September 15

@stickguy,
Yes a 68 but not a KR. Side stripe reads GT 500 without the KR suffix.

xwesx · September 15

Beautiful! He should have that thing parked at the end of his driveway every Sunday. It's a like a community center piece! Impromptu car shows might just spring up now and again. I know where they could get ahold of a nice fox body mustang....

explorerx4 · September 15

@xwesx,
Considering it's the first time I've seen the car since the owners moved earlier this year, they probably don't want to show it off too much.
Someone did mention trying to put together a neighborhood car show.

uplanderguy · September 15

ab, I've seen the blue discolor over the years, but I've never seen it turn beige like that, even after 47 years.

I like that seat upholstery material and design. Tuck-and-roll looks good IMHO, and that smooth vinyl is more leather-like than vinyl that has fake graining and such in it, like in my memory some Buicks of a couple years earlier had.

fintail · September 15

Not even looking at the plastics, even for 20K loonies, fix the headliner, it's not that expensive or tough. Looks like a "significant other wants me to sell it" price - low miles must combine with condition for top dollar.

ab348 · September 16

There were a few other pics in the FB listing that made it look like it had been in some sort of barn or storage for a very long time, judging from the amount of dirt/dust underhood. The 301 engine would give me some pause also. But I liked the design of those Pontiacs back then, both inside and out.

sda · September 16

I thought Pontiac had the best looking dashboards, especially when they had the full gage (GM spelling) package.

andre1969 · September 16

Years ago, I looked at a white '79 Bonneville that had a blue vinyl interior that looked similar to that. I really, REALLY wanted to like the car, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. I could have gotten it cheap, too, as the owner was actually planning to donate it, just to get rid of it! It had the Buick 350, but just going by the seat-of-my-pants feel, my Grandmom's '85 LeSabre 307, which I still had at the time, was quicker. And my '89 Gran Fury ex copcar would blow its doors off.

Also, isn't the Buick smallblock a bit on the "soft/fragile" side? Maybe not as bad as the Pontiac 301, but I seem to remember a discussion here awhile back, where I was asking if the Buick 231 was so bad back then, why wasn't the V8, since they were related. And I seem to remember the phrase "soft" or something like that coming up.

Uplander, I think I know that Buick vinyl pattern you're talking about. It's really thick and coarse, and always made me think of the stuff they use to cover school bus seats with!

andre1969 · September 16

sda said:
I thought Pontiac had the best looking dashboards, especially when they had the full gage (GM spelling) package.

Yep, it was nice to get an actual gage instead of that "gen" light!

ab348 · September 16

The Buick 350 in that era really suffered from desmogging and was amazingly gutless. They were probably trying to use up capacity at the manufacturing plant but any other 350 in the GM stable would have been a better choice.

imidazol97 · September 16

I recall from shopping for a 1977, that the Olds 350 was 50lb lighter and produced most power of Buick, Chevy and Olds. Chev was peppier than Buick. Buick probably aimed for smoothness.

uplanderguy · September 16

Uplander, I think I know that Buick vinyl pattern you're talking about. It's really thick and coarse, and always made me think of the stuff they use to cover school bus seats with

I remember that fake graining on Centurys and also LeSabre Customs. The seat patterns themselves were nice, but the vinyl material made me think of cheap Naugahyde recliners. For some reason, I seem to remember this effect most on red interiors.

I always thought the optional '76 Monte Carlo vinyl interior was leather-like. Like that Grand LeMans wagon of '78, the vinyl was smooth-looking. Cadillac Calais of the early '70's offered what the brochure called 'expanded vinyl' which was smooth and leather-like IMHO--and actually wore better than leather.

fintail · September 16

I've noticed the CSX-T I see now and then is definitely moving around - it appears someone is actually driving it regularly. It has some patina, so I am surprised.

andre1969 · September 17

imidazol97 said:
I recall from shopping for a 1977, that the Olds 350 was 50lb lighter and produced most power of Buick, Chevy and Olds. Chev was peppier than Buick. Buick probably aimed for smoothness.

For some reason, I was thinking the Chevy, Olds, and Pontiac 350s all had 170 hp, in the big cars for '77 at least, while the Buick had 155? I'm sure the peak torque, torque range, and rpm they all got their peak hp varied, though. I also seem to recall the Buick 350 had a bit more torque than the Olds 350. So it might have been a bit better at towing/hauling heavier loads with less of a drop in performance, but the Olds was probably quicker with a more normal passenger load.

I think the Olds 350 also had a slightly better EPA rating than the Chevy 350. So in addition to losing the perceived superiority of the Olds engine, Delta 88 buyers had something else to get miffed about, when they found a Chevy 350 under the hood.

Also, even though the Pontiac 350 had 170 hp, I think the Chevy and Olds 350s performed better overall. One reason that Chevy ultimately became GM's go-to for police cars, rather than Pontiac, was that in '78, the Impala 350 actually outperformed the Catalina 400 in most respects! Although I guess Pontiac's discontinuation of the 400 after 1978 might have also played a role. Here's a chart that summarizes the 1978 Michigan State Police car test:

And here's a link to the original article at Curbside Classic: https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/1978-michigan-state-police-patrol-vehicle-test-the-beginning-and-end-of-an-era/

tjc78 · September 17

fintail said:
I've noticed the CSX-T I see now and then is definitely moving around - it appears someone is actually driving it regularly. It has some patina, so I am surprised.

To most it's just a Shadow, but one of the rarer cars you'll see driving around for sure

kyfdx · September 17

My '77 Ford 302 2bbl was listed at 135 HP

sda · September 17

Compared to today, the acceleration numbers are laughable. 40+ seconds to 100, yee haw. Yet the speed limit was 55 mph

Michaell · September 17

All this talk of the different 350 engines makes me realize why GM was is such bad shape when the imports started to make inroads into the US market.

GM wasn't one company, they were 5 - each of them having their own engineering, marketing, HR, finance, accounting, styling, development, engineering, etc. organizations. I know it's popular to blame the unions, but all the duplication in the white collar work force had to have an effect on their ability to pivot and address the growing threat from Japan and Europe.

uplanderguy · September 17

Ah, but the choices were great. I far-more enjoyed looking at cars and all the many ways to individualize your car with options and colors, than now. The success of imports made the domestics pivot that way.

And I know this isn't conventional wisdom, but I haven't owned a car yet that I considered unreliable. And I'm a cheapskate.

andre1969 · September 17

I wish those stats from the Michigan State Police also listed 0-60 times. I have a book that covers Mopar police cars, from 1979-1994, and it gets a lot of its information from the MSP tests. It does reference that '78 440 Fury, because that was looked at as sort of a holy grail of police cars. It did 0-60 in 9.2 seconds.

Years ago, I remember looking at another book in this series. I think it covered Mopar police cars from 1956-1978. I vaguely remember looking through it...it's been years, now. Heck, I've had this '79-94 book since 2002! I seem to recall that in 1978, its table listed the Catalina 400 at something like 9.9 seconds in 0-60. It was quicker than the Impala 350, but I can't recall that car's 0-60. But in the long run, the 400 ran out of breath at higher speeds, so the 350 caught up to it, and bested it in 0-100 and top speed.

I think 1978 was the first year the MSP started their detailed police car tests, so it's a shame they didn't just include it with the '79-94 material. But 1978 probably made sense as a break point, as it was the last year for the B-body police car, as well as the 400 and 440 big blocks.

Another item of interest...in 1978 the MSP had a requirement that the car hit 0-100 in 38 seconds or less, or it was disqualified. For 1979-80, they had to relax that to 43 seconds! For 1981-83, they relaxed it to 48.5 seconds!

There was also a 0-60 requirement, which was 12.5 seconds in 1978. It was 13.0 seconds for 1979-80, and 14.5 for 1981-83. In 1984, they started holding the cars to a higher standard again.

I'd imagine the '78 LTD-II and LeSabre failed the 0-60 requirement, as well as the 0-100.
By 1980, things got so bad that the Impala was actually disqualified! It passed the 0-60 by the skin of its teeth, at 12.9 seconds, but then took 46.2 to hit 100. And it topped out at 110. The road course time, which is probably more about handling than speed, was 92.8 seconds, pretty close to the 1978.

As far as I know, the 1980 350-4 was still rated at 170 hp, same as 1978. So, something else must have been going on. I wonder if it was more restrictive heads, exhaust, or emissions in general? It could have the same 170 peak hp, but perhaps at a different rpm, and a narrower, more peaky hp/torque curve.

Michaell · September 17

Aesthetically, you are right. Growing up in Southern California, I was exposed to more import cars than the rest of the country, early. In fact, my folks never owned a domestic "car" - dad had his '70 Chevy C-10 from new, but mom always drove an import - VWs at first, then Toyotas, for the most part. There was one foray into owning a Mercedes, but mom hated that car (it was a diesel, and you had to wait for the glow plugs to warm up before you could start the car). Their last new car was an '03 Hyundai Sonata (after dad found some things about it that made it a better deal than the Camry they were looking at.

I owned a Pontiac and a Buick as used cars when I was in HS and college, then some Fords and Saturns around the turn of the century (gosh, it sounds so quaint to say that, now). But, I never had the "pull" that some of you have towards domestic makes.

andre1969 · September 17

All those multiple, redundant engine lines do seem like they'd be incredibly inefficient and wasteful, but I've heard that, across the volume GM was building them, the added cost was negligible. Where they ran into problems was once the feds started applying emissions and fuel economy standards, and then California had their own, extra-stringent requirements.

Starting in 1977, Buick and Pontiac V8s were both banned in California, because they wouldn't pass the stricter emissions standards. That included the new-for-1977 301. I think California is also the reason most V8s started transitioning to 4-bbl carbs, even if they were mild ones. The 2-bbl versions couldn't pass, either.

In 1977, the LeMans/Grand Prix offered a 301. So did the Catalina, Bonneville, and LeSabre. However, for that year, if it was a California car, I don't think they offered a 305 as a substitute, but rather, simply made you move up to an Olds 350 or 403.

For '78, when they downsized, the midsized cars did substitute a 305 in California, for the 301, but for the full-sized cars, I think they still made you move up to an Olds 350.

I believe the Olds 260 was also banned in California. And oddly, even though Buick V8s were banned, the 231 V6 was not. In fact, in cars that would have normally gotten the Chevy 200 (or 229 starting in 1980) V6, in California you got the 231 instead.

In the typical fashion of finally getting it right and then discontinuing it, Pontiac did get the 301 (and 265, I believe) to the point that they would pass California emissions, for 1981. The same year they dropped those engines!

tjc78 · September 17

I do think the volume comes into play. They needed to make that many engines anyway and at the time were still number 1 in the world.

If GM would have consolidated much sooner it would have paved their way for a much better late 70s-80s IMO. Think of all the manpower they had to design better things across the board rather than band-aiding multiple variations.

The Unions I’m sure factored in but in many cases instead of making a Pontiac 350 they would be making X 350. Same labor

uplanderguy · September 17

Where I grew up, and where I live now even, there were always a lot more domestic-brand dealers to pick from, and I like that. But 'anachronistic' probably fits me, LOL. I live in an area that could probably be considered 'rust belt' (especially my old hometown), as in my lifetime, there was a lot of heavy manufacturing there.

In fact, other than M-B and Simca at my hometown Studebaker dealer, the only other import car sold there in my lifetime, was Subaru at the Pontiac dealer, but probably for only three or four years in the early '70's. There was a VW dealer about 15 miles away.

There are only Ford and Mopar dealers in town now, and the VW dealer 15 miles away is no longer there.

benjaminh · September 17

My wife and I have started watching a new British detective show called Lynley. Starting at about 40 seconds on the trailer you see his car, which is apparently a Jensen Interceptor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTiXqTvwVg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_Interceptor

roadburner · September 17

benjaminh said:
My wife and I have started watching a new British detective show called Lynley. Starting at about 40 seconds on the trailer you see his car, which is apparently a Jensen Interceptor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTiXqTvwVg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_Interceptor

The Interceptor is a car I've always wanted to own. It's fitted with a 440 Magnum (440 Six Pack in the Interceptor SP). The transmission is a 727 TorqueFlite.

roadburner · September 17

Aside from my misspent street racing youth I've always been interested in imported cars. When I bought my Bavaria in 1983 their were only two other BMWs in my home county (a 2002 and a 320i). My opponent in my 1986 contested election originally had a 1971 Mercedes SE and he traded it for a Crown Vic to get the UAW endorsement. Nowadays in my county -as in most places- no one gives a BMW or MB a second glance.

fintail · September 18

uplanderguy said:
Where I grew up, and where I live now even, there were always a lot more domestic-brand dealers to pick from, and I like that. But 'anachronistic' probably fits me, LOL. I live in an area that could probably be considered 'rust belt' (especially my old hometown), as in my lifetime, there was a lot of heavy manufacturing there.

In fact, other than M-B and Simca at my hometown Studebaker dealer, the only other import car sold there in my lifetime, was Subaru at the Pontiac dealer, but probably for only three or four years in the early '70's. There was a VW dealer about 15 miles away.

There are only Ford and Mopar dealers in town now, and the VW dealer 15 miles away is no longer there.

I spent most of my childhood in a couple smallish towns, one with a population maybe 9-10K at the time, the next had maybe 15K or so, but adjoined a couple other smaller towns that maybe combined for 25K for the trio over a sizable area. I was pretty car-aware by the mid 80s, and remember we had dealers for all domestics, Toyota, and VW. I don't recall Honda or Datsun/Nissan, and no other Europeans. The second slightly larger town had all domestics along with Honda and Toyota, no Nissan, no Euros (but apparently before I was born had an old time dealer that carried Volvo, VW, and British Leyland). Today in the first town they now have Honda but VW is long gone, I think Caddy might be gone, nothing else new. In the second town, the Honda dealer is now gone, Caddy is long gone I think, all else is the same (and every brand is under one ownership umbrella).

Starting my car obsession in the early 80s, imports were always on the radar. I know by 1985 or so I was really into MB (on road trips I would count how many I spotted - back when the brand was still a little uncommon, and I "knew" many of the cars in town) and I had a thing for some Porsches. I also liked vintage cars, maybe for the style and being my father's son, as he liked looking at old cars more than new ones, and that part of the world was a treasure trove of old cars at the time. For domestics I remember liking the bustleback Seville and some other Caddys and Lincolns, probably because the Seville seemed exotic and the others were fancy. I wasn't too in tune with most Japanese cars, maybe because our town only had Toyota - I do recall liking the first 4-Runner and the look of the 85+ Cressida. When aero designs became the trend I was into that, and was pleased with our Tempo for looking modern and being a nice color combo.

explorerx4 · September 18

Pretty unique and seem to be in very good condition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2E3P02zDM4

andre1969 · September 18

I was raised on bigger cars, so they're always going to be in my blood. But, I think the first import car that really caught my attention, as a kid in the 70's, was the German Capri. I can't explain why; I just think it's a nice looking car. And towards the end of the decade, I liked the Celica and Celica Supras. Now, not that Celica that the Incredible Hulk smashed up and then rolled down the hill in the rainstorm (although I like those now), but around 1979, I guess.

tjc78 · September 18

Same here @andre1969 I was always around Lincoln's, Caddy's, Buicks etc so I tend to have a soft spot for them. I've mentioned it before but my uncle ran a high volume Dodge dealer in the 80s/early 90s so there were always Daytonas, Shelby Chargers, Lancers, Shadows etc around. I still really like all those cars especially the turbo versions. He used to get a demo for him and my Aunt. I don't know how (assuming a sister Chrysler dealer) but my Aunt for awhile always seemed to have hard loaded Chrysler Lasers with the digital dash and leather. My uncle drove either a Diplomat or a Dynasty. Then when the first gen Intrepid came out he snagged those.

All the old guys drove the big boats everyone else had a Dodge of some sort from my Uncle. Mom had an 85 Charger 2.2, Dad had an 86 Shelby Charger (short lived, totaled on NJ Turnpike) then an 87 two door Shadow turbo. My cousin was a Chrysler mechanic and he did something to that Shadow that made it a little rocket (at the time). I think it was something to do with the turbo.

I also remember someone had a red Daytona Shelby Z. My mom at some point grabbed a 92 Caravan from him and he also got my step dad a used 94 Spirit around 1997 or so for one of my step brothers. There were more I'm sure.

thebean · September 18

I really miss the XL domestic sedans, like Olds 98, Caddies, Lincoln Town Car, and Buick Electras. I couldn’t afford them in the 80’s and now that I can they are gone. What great road trip cars they must have been.

stickguy · September 18

I was 6 or 7 when we got our Volvo to replace a Chevy wagon I barely remember. After that car I learned to drive on, and got replaced by an Omni after I had my first car senior year. So I definitely did not grow up on big domestic iron!

tjc78 · September 18

thebean said:
I really miss the XL domestic sedans, like Olds 98, Caddies, Lincoln Town Car, and Buick Electras. I couldn’t afford them in the 80’s and now that I can they are gone. What great road trip cars they must have been.

I've owned a 79 Continental Coupe, 89 Grand Marquis, 89 Town Car and an 04 Grand Marquis. All were amazing cruisers. There really is nothing like them anymore. The closest sedan is probably a Lexus LS. Next best thing is full size SUV like a Tahoe or a quad cab truck.

I drove my 22 Ram from NJ and FL and back with the family and it was very comfortable.

tjc78 · September 18

stickguy said:
I was 6 or 7 when we got our Volvo to replace a Chevy wagon I barely remember. After that car I learned to drive on, and got replaced by an Omni after I had my first car senior year. So I definitely did not grow up on big domestic iron!

I forgot my Dad's Omni! That one got stolen... we had some bad luck back then.

fintail · September 18

thebean said:
I really miss the XL domestic sedans, like Olds 98, Caddies, Lincoln Town Car, and Buick Electras. I couldn’t afford them in the 80’s and now that I can they are gone. What great road trip cars they must have been.

Just buy a nice oldie! Hobby cars are fun and some of these are reliable enough for regular use.

Thinking about all this, my parents didn't seem to gravitate towards barges, other than my mom's big Bird. I guess the old cars my dad had in the 90s were big, but they were 60s cars - most cars were big (hard to get much bigger than a 60 Ford).

On the sedan note, I think my mom still is set on having a traditional 3 box sedan and would turn up her nose at the look of a hatchback car or CUV (although I think she likes riding in some of the latter), always been this way.

uplanderguy · September 18

explorer4, thanks for posting. I am about certain that Wagonaire belonged two decades ago to the editor of our Ohio Region Studebaker Drivers' Club newsletter. He was a retired HS principal and wonderful guy. He had terrific powers of persuasion to get members to contribute to the newsletter, including me. The car had been bought new at Jim Lee's Studebaker in Ravenna Township, about three miles east of me. WalMart is there now.

His was identical. The white painted roof was not factory. And...the bumper guards in front were one bolt in to close to each other.

I just got back from a day at the Studebaker Drivers' Club international meet in Washington, PA, only a little over two hours away. I really needed something like this lately, and it was wonderful. I'll post a few pics. Years back I was told by a moderator to lay off the Studebaker posts here, but pffft. LOL.

uplanderguy · September 18

First serial number 1964 V8 Studebaker, used to test the R3 engine:

That Avanti no. 8 isn't a 'tribute' car, it's the actual car used (among others) to set land speed records at Bonneville. The one B&W photo I feel pretty sure is Stude president Sherwood Egbert driving. At the time he was the first auto CEO to personally drive his product at 170 mph. He probably still holds that record.

imidazol97 · September 18

I enjoy your pics. Thanks for posting.

I went to greenville oh cruise with about 350 400 cars. No Studebakers.

uplanderguy · September 18

Thanks, appreciated.

uplanderguy · September 18

I'd say there were probably 100 or so Studes in total at the national (international) meet today.

kyfdx · September 18

Learned to drive on my mother’s ‘72 Lincoln.
Took my driving test on my father’s ‘74 De Ville

uplanderguy · September 19

andre, this pic was on my FB feed today--'73 Riviera. Not a great pic, but if you look closely and/or blow it up, you can see the fake graining we were talking about.

andre1969 · September 19

I don't know why this caught my attention enough to take a pic of it, but this morning at Aldi, I spotted this '04-07 Malibu.

I'm guessing it's a base model, judging from those plastic wheelcovers. And it was in pretty nice shape for its age, although looking at the pic again, it looks to me like it might have taken a slight hit up front. The fascia looks a bit misaligned. And the fender, right behind the headlight looks creased to me, but that could just be an optical illusion from the shadows.

It's weird how these used to seem fairly common, even if they were losing the war against the Camry/Accord/Altima. And they don't seem that long ago, yet this thing could be in its early 20s!

andre1969 · September 19

Uplander, that Riviera's vinyl actually doesn't bother me, although I wonder if the red softens that harsh look of it? But I looked around and found this, from a '73 Century Gran Sport:

That texture gives me a flashback of riding the bus to school; just change the color from black to dark green!

stickguy · September 19

Out walking the dog and passed a car for sale. An early (I think) boxy 300C. Had the big shiny chrome wheels that I think are OEM. And a flying B badge in front. For sale it you want it. A 2005 with 150k miles for $5,500

uplanderguy · September 19

I used to get that era of Malibu as rentals, and I thought they drove better than the same-era Impala. They had a model that had suede seat trim, which I recall they called "Ultralux".

I was thinking the other day, saying here that probably the first Japanese car I thought was good-looking was the late-'80's Maxima....smooth and simple lines. I think the next Japanese car I thought looked good, for the same reasons, was the 2002 Altima. Although the 2000 Monte Carlo had the similar taillight treatment, without the chromed section under the lens, I thought that was a nice touch on the Altima. I know 'tuners' seem to have liked it enough that there seemed to be an aftermarket availability of lenses like that for other cars.

There used to be a guy on here who would post that in his opinion, Asian makes in general had 'insectoid' styling. I know what he meant. But those Maximas and Altimas seemed to avoid that!

uplanderguy · September 19

Sheesh, that Gran Sport bucket has zero contour on the seat bottom. You're right, that fake graining is very evident in that pic.

uplanderguy · September 19

That Malibu pictured has to tie with the '90 Lumina Euro silver-painted flat wheelcover, for worst Chevy wheel cover in history.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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