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Comments
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Legacys, unlike Outbacks and Foresters, are not available with the All-Weather package, which includes heated seats, a wiper deicer and heated outside mirrors. I know the GT comes with the LSD, that is part of the AWP.
Also none of the Legacys get map pockets on the back of the front seats, that the Outbacks get.
The wagons do not get a fold-down rear center seat armrest. It's on the new H-6 models and sedans.
Bob
I have a 5sp H4 '00 OB. Fantastic car. The more I drive it at high speeds, the more I like it.
I drove the VDC and posted a review over in the Owners Club. Yes it has more power. Yes it has more toys. No, it is not cheap.
-- ash
1) Agree steering is too light on centre at low speed. I've oversteered a few times and still am not used to it as I also drive two other vehicles.
2) Poor turning circle.
3) No light for the ign key. THIS $1.99 ITEM BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME! All other cars since the 70's seem to have this and I end up sitting with the door open in the rain, fumbling to put the key in.
4) Interior light should stay on a few seconds after closing door. This would be acceptable instead of 2) but of course it doesn't. Even a Cavalier has that.
5) We get scuffs and marks on the door sills, probably because we have to lift our feet higher to clear it. Also, the bulge where the speakers are in the front doors gets kicked and marked in the same manner.
6) Check Engine light came on 3 times so far. Looks like it was a loose hose on evap system.
7) Flimsy access covers for rear lamps in tailgate. They seem to get knocked out when we carry stuff in the back, but the little plastic clip comes off and disappears into the tailgate (recovered twice so far).
8) No pockets in rear of front seats.
9) No variable delay on wipers.
Everything else is great & we are happy with the car. The main reasons we bought the vehicle are towing ability, load capacity and grip in heavy rain, ice and snow. That outweighs all the other stuff.
Our new '01 Forester has an interior light delay. I'm surprised your Outback doesn't. Maybe the '01 Outbacks do?? Also, you may already know this, but the '01 Outbacks "do" have map pockets on the rear of the front seats. I believe they also have a variable delay on the wipers too this year.
What kind of trailer are you towing? How heavy is it, and does it have trailer brakes? Does the Outback pull it okay? Is it a problem towing with a 5-speed? Usually manufacturers recommend towing with an automatic, rather than a stick shift.
Bob
I have to agree though on the trim quality in the rear of the car, although in my case it is in the trunk and therefore not as visible. As for the interior light, I agree that it is a small thing that makes a big difference. It doesn't make it onto my gripe list though; I suspect it's because I've worn strong prescription glasses nearly all my life and thus have long ago learned to find things without necessarily being able to see them 8-)
Subaru is listening, and learning, as is apparent by the addition of seat pockets and lighting improvements in the '01 models. I hope they find a way to improve things without digging too far into the "bang for the buck" lead they have over their competitors. Speaking for myself, given the choice between qualifying the twin-turbo B4 motor for the US and adding cupholders for the rear seats, I'll take the turbo.
Cheers,
-wdb
Bob
1. bad rotors from factory needed new rotors brakes and alignment at 4000 mi.
2. Gas milage on trip at 14000 now on my 2001 OB limited auto is no were near what they say average trip 24 mpg in town 22mpg.
3. My biggest complaint and reason I may trade it is simply room, that is leg room for passenger as well as driver on a trip its bad...I may be too large at 6ft 5in but i am use to confort and its just not there . My son loves his 97 OB but he is only 6 ft. I am sure Subaru is as quality a product as made but why dont they make a larger vehicle. Even Toyota is going bigger
4. Price it is a relatively expensive auto they could afford to make a newer larger mdel and the price shouldn't be much more
5.THE LOCATION OF THOSE SEAT HEATER SWITCHS WHY!!!!!!! YOU ARE ALWAYS HITTING THEM AND TURNNING THEM ON THERE IS AMPLE ROOM ON THE DASH OR DOOR PANELS FOR THESE SWITCHES....
6.I am use to a vehicle with better pick up. It is alright from 50 mph up and the 6cyl. LLBean is not realy noticably different to warrant the extra cost I drove one for the last 3 days and no way would I pay what Subaru charges for the 6cyl.
1. Gas mileage. I got a real 28.3 mpg on my 8500 mile road trip in Sept/Oct.
2. Fun to drive. All the time every time.
3. Performance. For a 4 cylinder pulling a vehicle this heavy I am always amazed at how well it performs. No doubt this is do in some part to the fact mine is a 5 speed. Don't buy an AT!
4. Dual moonroofs. Love em. With the front popped up and the rear open half way there is very little buffeting but great ventilation.
5. Cloth interior. The front seats are firm and well bolstered. No matter how much beach sand or bay muck my dog drags into the back seat it is easy to clean.
6. AC. Performed great (road trip again) in 100+ temps.
7. Dealer experience. No hassle no haggle $300 over invoice. Plus zero warranty problems at 11k miles.
8. Easy do it yourself maintenance. Oil change is a breeze.
9. Great view. Okay so I pulled the rear headrests and stuck one in the back for that occasional extra passenger. But even with the windows tinted 20% I have no real blind spots.
10. Nice fit and finish. Panels all fit great, doors shut with a thud (yeah- windows up), and everything feels nice. Looks good too.
Needless to say I love my Legacy. For $25k out the door I feel I got a great car for the money. Very solid, sensible and fun drive.
bit
My wife loves her LLBean. I agree with most of whats said here.
1. Brakes are spongy. Mine now squeal. Probably just brake dust.
2. The steering does float a little. I usually drive an Altima SE and its much tighter.
3. I think the H6 is a big improvement over the H4 (with automatic). It gives me what we need on short entrace ramps.
4. The price is too high. The reliablity better be there.
If you want to see what a dissatified customer sounds like look at the volvo XC or ford (pick any car) boards.
would be great. I can't, so I look for a vehicle
that can give me the best of both worlds. Mid-life
crisis? Perhaps. It's just one of many that I have
encountered over the years. I'm sure there are more to come. I can live with that. ;P
As I and others have said all along, it "is" an
improvement on the H-4. Just not the huge one I and others expected, and certainly not as huge as the price increase would indicate. For $30K or more, I would certainly expect the 6-disk CD changer and security system to be standard, which they're not. Heck, my $26K Forester S Premium has the 6-CD changer standard!
As you said, it gives you what you need. You and a great many others are exactly "the market" for this vehicle as it now stands. Subaru has positioned this vehicle for its largest possible audience. It has succeeded admirably.
Now, for those of us who wish for a bit more
salsa, we anxiously await...
Bob
Sigh. Oh, well. Back to driving my well-balanced, fun-to-toss Subaru, the one that has "GT" badges but really pleases me because I like a car that handles crisply and carries four adults in comfort.
Regards,
-wdb
Note, the auto transmission in the Forester is significantly better than the Outback's, and does not have the same drawbacks I mentioned above. In the Forester, I think the auto and the 5-spd are equally good choices.
As for the differences in AWD systems between auto and 5-spd, both have compelling advantages that the other doesn't, so I think it's a wash. For example, while the 90/10 split of the auto models is better for fuel economy, I would say the default 50/50 split of the 5-spd is better for overall handling. The auto AWD system can shift torque fore/aft to improve braking and acceleration, but the even split of the 5-spd's system minimizes the need for that sort of thing to begin with. Etc . . . . With LSD, they are bot great systems.
I can't speak for anyone else, but cost was not an issue with auto versus 5-spd in my case. I actually paid more to get a 5-spd on my last car!
Speaking of which, I think this mid-life crisis idea is all messed up. I got my sports car days out of the way while I was young and single, and actually LIKE having a station wagon now! It's a lot more compatible with my evolving family life. Perhaps I will once again long for a sports car someday, but not now!
Craig
own experience driving numerous versions of each,
clearly leads me to believe the 5-speed is
quicker... and more fun.
As Craig said, it's better management of power
with the closer gear splits, and the driver
controlling as to what gear to be in at any given
time.
Bob
Bob
My previous ride was a '97 Chevy K1500 with the 350 v8 and an automatic. 300+ torque, 250+ hp. Plenty of get up and go - enough to lay rubber from a stand still (and a empty bed!).
As far as our auto OB goes, I haven't found it slow at all (yet?!?). It has plenty of torque to accelerate without downshifting (unless the ECU decides to). In fact, I think it's a lot of fun to drive. If I think the ECU isn't doing a good job of selecting the gears I need for what lies ahead, I simply put the auto in the gear of my choice. A little 'manual' control does wonders. A quick shifting manu-matic would be even better!
I think that automatic is also doing quite a bit more work than the manual. It's monitoring wheel slip, grade of the road, speed indicators, engine RPM, ballot counting in FL - OK, maybe not that, but it does do a lot. Give the auto trans a bit of a brake guys!
-brian/subearu
Cheers,
-wdb
Bob: just a side note - the TL now has a 5 speed auto and is under $30k. Subaru can and should do it.
The Outback now had the rear LSD standard, so the All Weather Package no longer includes that, yet still costs the same. It has the heated seats, mirrors, and windshield. And yes, the GT does not offer this, which is too bad.
Pitfalls on a Subaru?
1. Check Engine Light too sensitive for many
2. Brake feel needs to be firmed up
3. Drop the 70 series tires on Forester L
4. Tighten the turning circle
5. Offer the more interesting models here
I'd like to see a Blitzen and a Forester turbo, at least. WRX is already on the way.
Another beef - since my '98 Forester, they've added tons of content with less-than-inflation price increases, which means I missed out. Especially on that moonroof option.
Guess that's not really a negative, except to me.
-juice
Besides added toys, there is no real difference between these and lower Legacy models. In particular, I would like to see the GT *standard* with an H6, and the OB *standard* with dual range and optional with H6.
-- ash
I agree, ash, but I'd execute it differently.
Give the Outback the H6 standard, and throw in a low range and a little more clearance. That plus an oil and transmission cooler and beefier brakes to up the tow rating to at least 3000 pounds. That would make it a legit SUV alternative.
Now, take the GT in the other direction. Give it the turbo engine, even the 227hp would be a good start. Heck, make a 6 speed manual standard, don't even offer the auto. It would cater to a very different audience.
Heck, I could easily imagine people owning both, and for completely different reasons.
-juice
I got 16"x7" rims for my Forester for just $75 each (I needed new tires anyway). My rear sway bar was just $82, and the front brace only $113.
The masses like 'em soft, so people like us have to do a little customization if you buy the value models (Ls) instead of the high-end ones (S or GT).
The new H6 engine is much more compact and returns 20/27 mpg while meeting tougher emissions standards.
Never mind, though. Get a WRX sedan. Wait until spring and drive one. They'll outperform an S4, never mind a pedestrian A4.
-juice
Anyway, he paid $34k and change (order) + tax with 5-spd auto, HID, cold weather group, intergrated phone, and one other thing I cant remember (either premium sound or CD changer). No navigation system, stability control, sport package, and whatever you have to get that includes the moon roof. Not stripped but not loaded either.
His reasons for not getting the VDC (in no order):
1) Could not get a "good deal". The VDC was selling for $32.5k (Pittsburgh area) with the options he wanted. I have no idea what they were. Its still less that what he paid for the A4. I had told him that Subarus frequently sell for $200-500 over MSRP once the novelty buyers get done. I guess he was impatient.
2) The Audi looks better (to him).
3) The Audi drives better and feels more solid (to him). He did not like the frame-less windows. BUT he liked the seats in the VDC better. I think the Audi looks more like a luxury car but I'm not sure its MORE comfortable than the Subaru. It may look more comfortable but I dont think it is. With the sport package it does drive better but that adds a ton of money to the price.
4) He is an MD with a large practice and wanted the Audi to park out front in the reserved parking just because its an Audi. Did not use those exact words but I could tell. I think this was the biggest reason but he will not directly admit it.
5) I could tell he was facinated with the sequential shifting 5spd. He cannot drive a stick so its must seem cool to him. It's useless to me but a lot of people seem to like it.
6) He (and I must admit that I am facinated by them too) really wanted HID lamps like on his Envoy.
7) Warranty and the "treatment" he received at the Audi dealer.
Things that he did not seem to care about:
1) Sporty. Could care less about hp numbers or H6 -vs- V6.
2) VDC. I dont think the dealer explained this to him very well.
3) The VDC is bigger.
You asked what kind of trailer I'm pulling. It's a pop-up tent trailer, about 1000lbs loaded, with no brakes. The combo handles beautifully. Once you get used to the impact on acceleration you forget the trailer is there and can power round curves with confidence. Braking performance is excellent too, with no feeling that the trailer is pushing you. Gentle inclines can be handled in 5th as long as you are doing 80-90 kmh, hills usually require a shift to 4th and occasionally 3rd in order to maintain speed.
I previously towed with the Dodge, which sported a 360 V8 auto. Bags of torque of course, but despite it being a heavy car the tail tended to wag the dog at times and you never forgot it was on the back. I think the sube's modern suspension, braking and AWD more than make up for it's lighter weight.
I posted previously on this topic, just after a 2500km trip round BC in late September.
We've got a new Forester S Premium automatic. I currently pull a utility trailer with a gvw of 2500# with our Explorer. The trailer weighs about 640# empty. It doesn't have brakes either, so if I were to pull it with our Soob, I would only have about a net trailer payload of 360#. (Foresters and Outbacks pulling trailers without brakes are limited to only 1000#). Not much at all.
Bob
Bob
I got 700 miles on my '01 OB Lmtd and figure I pull over to the side of the road and check in. This car is a ton of fun to drive (5 spd). I have been running errands for days ... I figure this car will keep me out of the dog house for months. Not a bad marketing campaign "Subaru -the car that keeps families together & keeps you out of the dog house".
I have a few questions concerning the Roof Cargo Carrier. Our 98 lbs golden retriever will most certainly stay in the cargo area ... Those claws dare not rip our leather seats.
So this presents us with the issue of what do we do with all our stuff on weekend get-aways?
Does anyone have any experience with the Roof Cargo Carriers? Any idea of costs? Is it easy to use? How does it effect driving?
Thanks
-Glick
More practically, the Outback luggage area is very large and there is probably plenty of space, both for the dog and the gear, particularly if you use the space immediately behind the rear seats wisely. Try it out before buying a roof carrier as you may be surprised just how much junk fits in.
Juice has used a roof carrier and seems to think them wonderful but he has a Forester which has a smaller, although taller luggage area.
Cheers
Graham
Glick: check out mine:
http://thejuiceman.homepage.com/access.html
It was $50 for this Samsonite on-line. I've seen it for $40 at Samsonite outlets (DOH!), but Target sells one for $35 and there are many other choices in soft carriers (try Wal Mart and Target).
Pro? Light, cheap, takes no space when stowed, easy to set up, fits odd shapes, and water-proof! Con? Not as nifty looking as the OE, Sears, Thule, and Yakima hard carriers.
Check out one of those, then compare to Sears new black carrier, which looks much better than the old X-Cargo models. I think Sears' are about $100 and up.
The Forester felt heavier, but my cargo hold was absolutely loaded, so not really top-heavy. A dog is surely lighter than what I had in there. The roof is rated to carry 150 pounds, which is pretty darn good.
-juice
Regards,
-wdb
Good one Graham!
Bob
Thanks Pat.
Thanks Pat.
Thanks again Pat.
Just cant decide if its worth that or ??
Need info
For $33k I'd want at least the VDC.
-juice
Bob
I very much like the current body style, but I've seen what VW has planned for the 2001.5 Passat Wagon and I must admit it looks pretty inviting. Anyone else feel the same/different about this?
John
Then the 2003 Forester, then the ST-X, then the bigger SUW in 2005. The next Outback will likely come after that.
Do you like the Legacy GT wagon?
I like the new VW styling, too. I can't believe Audi let them copy that look. The Passat is also supposed to get a (needed) power boost.
-juice
It snowed in St. Louis and it took me 2 hours to drive 27miles in to work. There were 7 accidents that I had to get by. Most involved larger SUVs and trucks and some looked rather bad. Please be careful in the snow people. AWD, FWD, 4WD, or whatever you have...There is no substitute for using good judgement.
I too noticed the VW styling closely resembled that of the Audi or is it the other way around? I'd seriously consider the VW but I can't get over the issues concerning reliability and electrical problems.
John
OB gets an inch more ground clearance, body cladding, two tone paint and winter package as an option.
bit
John