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Comments
1st Par: You have to spend money to make money. Any dealer who chooses to advertise is making money based on this outlay--in my view, the consumer should not be charged directly.
2nd Par: Are you actually implying that 99.9% of cars sit on the lot for a full 3 months--and therefore eat through their entire holdback--immediately prior to their sale? If this is true, than I guess that holdback money is not a source of profit for the dealer.
3rd Par: Are you claiming that dealers freely give their factory-to-dealer incentives to customers? If this is true, then I guess incentives are not a source of profit for the dealer.
4th Par: If I want a "genuine VW invoice," I will walk down the street to my local dealer and ask for one, but your written description has proven more than adaquate for the purposes of our discussion.
Are you really going to keep insisting that I "tear off my mask" and reveal my "true identity" to you and the world?! Gee Whiz, I'm just a guy--it's not like I'm Zorro or Robin Hood.
But you know what, maybe I will hang up the costume for a bit. I need a break from this...
I can only hope that another superhero takes up where I have left off
these issues clear...I have spoken of this before.
The invoice does not carry dealer ad fees...When
we run commercials, my web site, our newspaper ads, our radio spots...none of this is passed along to the customer...that was my point...These are Regional Fees that the Dealer does not control, which is why the invoice that comes from the factory includes them and the Dealer must pay them. We are fortunate in that we do not have to
pay these fees, but it does not mean that the guys in the San francisco bay area do not...
As I said before *holdback* is an assist from the factory...that is money to help defray *Flooring expenses*, not pay for them. If that was the case
every Dealer would get a 90 day grace period thus
eliminating a lot of paperwork for the MFG. The
meter starts running the minute that car is invoiced to the dealer and flooring (interest) is
incurred every day until the car is sold. This is
the most common accounting practice in the business. The important part of understanding this, is the fact that the dealership is not treating each car on an individual basis...we are
running a business. As I said before...to turn an
entire new car inventory within 90 days is a goal
that is rarely achieved...some quarters yes, most
no. And the accountant has to look at the entire inventory not each car...That is the responsibilty
of the Sales Manager...try to find a home for the oldest inventory first because those cars are becoming more expensive everyday.
Do all Dealers advertise *cash back* incentives...
probably not, but most do so with advertised discounts, and that it was the incentives provide.
The customer gets a discounted price, that without the incentive, would not be possible. And
I have assisted every member who was in the process of a purchase and made them aware of what was available everytime I was called upon for advice...no complaints so far.
The Automobile business carries on it's back a terrible reputation...but EVERY manufacturer is
trying to change that, and they are doing that by applying tremendous pressure on the Dealer to clean up his/her act. At Volkswagen this is called the Apostle Program...the goal is customer
loyalty...the rewards are genuinely happy customers, wonderful referrals, a better choice of cars, and, of course, the ultimate carrot CASH. Your posts and what are you are trying to do, are by and large, commendable in that you are,
I think, trying to raise the level of awareness to the members about the pitfalls that they face in the pursuit of the ole family car. I take exception only when you posture and portend, by
syntax, that you are preaching gospel...it aint
always so...
will be picking it up tonite. with the $2075 off msrp, realized the dealer was making some profit and i wound up with a deal less than the tmv. dirito bros in walnut creek is truly the best in the bay area!!! with their passive style of selling and an upfront way of dealing with customers. i didn't feel pressured or like he was trying to scam me.
****Still want to know if the cd player plays cd-r's. Anyone?????????????????????
Buying a new car should NOT be a battle. I mean, this is, for most people the second largest purchase they are going to make in their life. And its not a NEED. When someone wants to buy a Passat, its not because they NEED a Passat. They just need transportation, but they WANT a Passat.
People look at this process like its the shopping equivalent to a root canal! Why?
If everyone would just relax, and look at what is motivating them, buying a car can be the easiest, most relaxing of purchases.
The main thing that stops my customers from buying are:
1. Ego
2. Fear
3. Ignorance
Here are the lines that exemplify each:
1. "If I can't get it for $100 over invoice, I'll just buy a different car!"
2. "Uh, um, ...ok, this price sounds really great, but I've got to check with (Internet, Father, Cousin, Boss, etc...)."
3. "Ok, the Passat I'm looking at is $27,000. So, I'd like to finance 60 months with $1000 down for $200/month."
I see this EVERY day. And as much as the car business has changed in recent years, I think these are going to remain the main stumbling blocks.
See post #243 for my advice on purchasing a car. Its a very relaxing method, and more and more of my Internet customers are using it.
Jason
they will offer you...
You know a really frustrating one I went through when I bought my first car (but not with that dealer). They wanted me to sign a blank check so that they could check my credit rating/approve a rate/whatever. Anyhow, I naively agreed and was held hostage for over 2 hours while I spoke with 5 different salesmen. Finally they returned my check. I know, that was stupid of me and will never happen again.
That is just one example of why I feel I must stay sharp when going to buy a car.
Invoice (base plus options, as per Edmunds or some other site)
plus destination
plus regional advertising fee (if any, =? $100?)
minus holdback (2% of MSRP not including destination)
minus dealer incentive
minus customer rebate (if dealer keeps that)
equals dealer cost.
And just to clarify, the holdback is the same for the dealer regardless of when he sells the car, right?
Is there a way to find out the regional advertising fee for Indiana?
Is cost plus 5% reasonable for a 2001 Passat GLS 4cyl automatic with leather?
And not on cost, why doesn't VW make more light colored Passats? Everything on the local lots is dark.
many thanks,
memeboy
1. Does anyone have a sense whether dealers on the E. Coast/DC area really do have few 2001 wagons left?
2. If I strike a deal with a dealer and he says he needs to get the car I want from another dealership, what would be a reasonable deposit for me to pay and how long should I have to wait typically? Should I expect the fact that a dealer doesn't have the model/options/color that I want to affect the price we negotiate?
Thanks.
2. Standard deposit I have seen is $500. The wait shouldn't be longer than a week or so. If it takes longer, they probably haven't been able to find it. Best advice is to remain flexible on colors and options, and don't expect a dealer to make no money and go across 4 states to get you the car.
Jason
If anyone can clarify the benefits of waiting until spring, please elaborate.
If you are getting a good deal on a 2001 you are actually saving more than you think. Dealers are going to be asking for MSRP or more on the 2001.5's so the difference in total price is probably more than the increase b/w the 2001 & 2001.5
here regarding this subject...
My wife was leaning to the Passat. she wanted something a little different - European engineering (we currently have a Camry)etc. We were just about set to buy the Passat when I drove it for the first time, and we discovered that the CD player is not included in the GLX. The performance, specifically the acceleration, was very disappointing. The poor acceleration lead us to re-estimate the value of the 2 year warranty, the lesser room in the rear for the boys, and $3-4000 price difference and the additional $$ for the CD - an old ploy.
We bought the Accord for $23,000 (the dealer accepted Edmunds TMV as an offer)- including the 6 disc CD player. Better resale value, longer warranty (3/36) and more rear seat room ... and better acceleration (3.0 litre/200 HP vs. 2.8 litre 190 HP).
I can understand why a single person would still pay more for the Passat (looks and styling)... but the performance and the value are just not there compared to the Accord EX.
This forum was helpful to me, so I thought I would return the favor.
Dave
luxury package and leather package and I've been quoted a price of
$24,141. Is this a good price? It works out to about 3% over invoice.
Many thanks in advance.
FOR those of you just tuning in, I think it is helpful to point out that this site is populated by both consumers and dealers (these dealers include: junior75, ffxvw, vwguild, jpvwaudi, etc.). If a dealer states something along the lines of "dealers are going to be asking for MSRP or more on the 2001.5s" (see post #317), be sure to take this "statement of fact" with a huge grain of salt. All dealers who come here, come here AS PART OF THEIR JOB. It is in their interest to try to "influence the market" with their own perspectives.
As for Junior75's statement, of course dealers will be asking for "MSRP or more" for the Passat 2001.5s--THEY ALWAYS ASK FOR MSRP OR MORE! Will they get MSRP or more? Not very often, and only from foolish people who haven't done their homework.
The internet is a powerful tool and is currently causing many problems for auto industry retail sales. Consumers have access to all kinds of auto pricing information and are able to exchange real world stories of their negotiations with dealers. It is no surprise that dealers have responded by sending their "internet salesmen" onto the internet to try to redirect conversations, provide "helpful advice," etc. Basically, they are here to pre-negotiate on behalf of any and all VW dealers.
Many people who come to this site pop in and out during their several weeks of research and then never return. The dealers, however, are here for the long haul. By virtue of their longevity at this site, they acquire a certain sense of "benevolent authority." People turn to them for advice, and these dealers basically spout the "party line."
Are these dealers evil? Of course not, THEY ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOB.
It just bugs me, here I am trying to talk with other consumers about buying a Passat at this "smart shopper" site, and half of the posts are from dealers. Now, while one of these dealers may have a very helpful answer to: "Has anyone seen a 2001 GLS V6 w/o Leather, Lux?, I don't see how they could break their "dealer code" and give an honest response to: "What's the best deal I can expect on the this car?
Just my .02 +
Thank you
Go get the new copy (Dec 2000) of "Car" Magazine. It's a British automobile Magazine that's also, in mine and many other people's opinion, about the best automotive magazine in the world bar none. The compare it to some cars that are a moot point over here, but the styling is MUCH better than I had anticipated.
You usually need to go to Barnes and Noble or some other store to get it in the US. It's $7.95 but well worth it.
Bill
Your idea sounds perfectly reasonable to me. "X amount over invoice" or "X% over invoice" would be the way to phrase it. In this case, the dealer would be assured of an immediate sale with a fair profit. What more could they want?
On the other hand, I suspect that pricing will be announced very soon. You may want to wait until that point for the sake of crystal clarity (and simply because you don't want to appear "desparate").
Jason
As far as the 2001.5's go, to be perfectly honest, I don't know how its going to be. I can tell you that every dealer in this area is anticipating charging ADM or at least not discounting on these cars. My personal assessment: that will probably last from 2 to 3 months. By then, the novelty will have worn off, and we'll be getting more in-stock. The word now is that these cars will just trickle in at first, making specific combinations difficult to find.
Ouch, now I'm the one getting wordy...LOL
Jason
But, here's what we will see: The classic dealer strategy of arguing "supply and demand" (i.e. Why should I sell this car to you for a reasonable price, when some idiot will walk through my door in one hour and pay me $2000 over MSRP?).
I am certainly not going to be that idiot, and I hope that all of us can keep our wits about us when we deal with the dealers. As consumers, our only prudent response to this strategy is to steer the discussion to "fair price" and "fair profit."
I pray for price-fixing every day I'm here! If VW would just get with their dealers and Saturn-ize us, my job would get unbelievably easier.
Jason
I am going to email Pacific Gas & Electric right now !!!!
If I cannot get a Passat for a fair and reasonable price, I will give my business to another automaker...
VW does not have a monopoly.
when all of these new products that are now in the pipeline finally
come to the store they will be priced from VWAG...; no one else...
First, there are many dealers out there (two dozen within 100 miles). They may all start by asking for MSRP, but they will not hold their ground if enough people walk away LAUGHING. No single VW dealer has a monopoly on VWs--there will always be another. In the interest of selling Passats, some of these dealers will be smart enough to set aside their greed.
Second, VW knows that they are in a very tough market. The auto industry is in the toilet, and the mid-size family car niche is very competitive. THAT is why VW is only raising the MSRP by a few hundred dollars for the "freshened" 2001.5s. There are lots of other nice cars out there that people will opt for if the Passat street price passes by its comparative value.
I only want "inexpensive german performance" if it is inexpensive. I will either get a good deal or I will walk away laughing. Really, I'll be laughing and whistling and having a good time! Because I'm a happy-go-lucky sort of guy ; )
EVERY consumer car buying resource contends that paying MSRP is financially foolish.
EVERY consumer car buying resource suggests that starting with the Invoice is the best way to calculate a fair price--this "fair price" is usually hundreds or even thousands below MSRP.
Given this, vwguild, I don't think that your dealership's policy of "ONLY asking MSRP" is to be commended.
timed me out again...I'll respond when this thing works correctly...
for now, I have wasted too much of my time just to get posted back
to a message that tells me that I am already logged in...see ya..
You mean that you would not buy a particular make and model simply because you could not buy said make and model from any dealer for the discount you wanted?
seems odd to me....
Bill
this year...The happiest customers, without question, were the
ones that focused on what they were getting; not what they paid.
The folks that left wondering if they could grind another $100 are
also the ones that post here "Did I get a Good deal?" And never really enjoy their purchase.
In general, I tend to walk away from a bad deal. MSRP is a reference point, not the "true value" of the vehicle. If I can't "get a discount" (as you put it), then the model under consideration is quite simply overpriced. At that point, I would comparison shop with the higher priced competition (where I expect I would get a "discount"). Is it wise to spend too much money on an overpriced vehicle, when one could buy a better car for the same price?
vwguild--
More and more car shoppers realize that they can focus on BOTH the car and the deal. It hardly seems wise to just focus on the "shiny new car with the power seats." I suspect that some of your "happy customers," weren't so happy when they got home and reviewed the poor deal they had just made. How happy would you be if your friend bought the exact same car, but for $1500 less? Would you really look back and treasure your "conflict-free afternoon" with the salesman?
(I don't expect either of you to answer these questions--these are questions for those looking to buy a car...)
would I ask you how much you paid for your new leather chair or
your new car...
As far as what someone's friend might say about their purchase, I've experienced that fishing isn't the only arena where people fudge the truth!
Jason
I am in the market to buy a Passat GLX, probably of the 4Motion variety. I was curious if anyone had heard anything or has had any experience with its towing capacity. Thank you for your help.
I paid $20,679 for a 2001 Passat GLS 1.8T. It is silver with cloth interior. I also added an in-dash CD player. The total price after
taxes ($620.37), tags, title ($56) and documentation fee ($169) was $21,524.37.
My wife has put over 500 miles on the car in four days. She loves it! FYI, I was pleased with the experience at Bob King VW in Wilmington, NC.
I am in the triangle area and I am curious what other dealers you tried and what made your experience so good at the dealer in wilmington. Thank you.
Vehicle A is 25K.
You want x discount, but only get y discount.
Vehicle B is 26K.
You get y+1000 discount.
The fact that the car was a $1000 more expensive to start, yet discounted more, makes this more attractive to you? I should get on the phone with VW, and tell them to raise prices!
Jason
P.S. Sounds like you got a nice car. In some areas, (including mine) there are very few Passats available without the luxury package.
Car A: MSRP = 31K
Car B: MSRP = 36K
Car A dealers think they can hold to MSRP, Car B dealers offer generous discounts.
Car A can be had for 31K (or more), Car B for 32K (or less).
These two vehicles are not in the same class, and yet in this case they can be compared along price lines. Given the fact that nearly every car can be had for under MSRP, Car A is overpriced--and is forced to compete with Car B, a superior vehicle in the next class up.
This is one scenario, Passat vs. Saab 9-5, but the same principles apply in other comparisons, even if the numbers are a bit lower. The Passat is not worth MSRP. No car is--competition ensures this.
Given VW's position in the marketplace (good, but not that good), they can't jack up their prices or they will lose customers in droves. Again, this is why VW is only raising the MSRP on the 2001.5s by a few hundred bucks. If they were to raise the price further, people would begin to cast a wider net and include even more competitive models. If VW dealers try to hold to MSRP on the new Passat, they will run into this same problem--they will lose customers to the competition.