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Monday morning, Southern States called. The sales rep called me from his cell phone while on the lot. He started to read every sticker on each Jetta and Passat on the lot. I told him to e-mail me quotes on what I specifically requested. He said he didn't know how to use e-mail and that he would fax me the quote. I never heard from him again.
As of Monday afternoon, I had not heard from the other dealerships. I faxed a copy of the e-mail to National VW, Joe Pecheles, and Bob King VW in Wilmington. National VW immediately called, but to make a long story short, said that could not give me a quote unless I physically visited the lot. The call was quite humorous.
Bob King VW called to verify my request. Within ten minutes the rep e-mailed a reasonable quote on both vehicles. After two e-mail exchanges, we reached a deal. I told the guy to have the car ready for me by noon the next day. The guy was very professional and didn't give me a bunch of b.s. On Tuesday, I picked up the car and was in and out of the dealership within thirty minutes. I dealt with Jay Gertz.
BTW, Joe Pecheles called three days later. The Bob King VW quote on the Jetta GLS with CD player was $17,247 (tornado red or black). I feel I got a good deal at $20,679 on the Passat considering:
MSRP $21,975 plus $335 for in-dash CD ($22,310)
Edmunds TMV $20,512 (12/7/00) + 525 dest. + CD
If you need more info., let me know.
For the benefit of potential passat buyers, here are some things I learned:
1. At least in the Wash. DC area (though I suspect elsewhere, too), the 2001 Passat wagons are disappearing. Dealers say that they don't expect new shipments until March and they're referring to the 2001.5, which probably will sell much closer to MSRP at first.
2. My dealer was unwilling to swap a '01 wagon for another one that had the interior color I initially wanted. People who want to buy an '01 at a decent price may not be able to get exactly what they want.
3. Salesmen at up-scale dealerships may not engage in high-pressure tactics, but they may be just as dishonest as sales people at less tony establishments. I was naive to think otherwise. My salesman told me during negotiations that VW doesn't pay holdbacks. When I showed him evidence to the contrary (specifically re Passats), he made the irrelevant point that his compensation is based on sales price above invoice.
4. Like the Edmunds buyer's guide says, carefully inspect your car at delivery. I found a tiny crack in the rear windshield. The dealership said they'd replace the windshield, but I question the care with which they detailed the car prior to my driving it off the lot (it was dark at the time). If I were a cynic, I'd say that they knew about the crack and hoped I wouldn't find it.
Personally, I've driven a couple of "higher end cars", and I don't see the quality difference warranted by the price difference. Well, the Mercedes, and the Beamer were pretty nice.
Tell me, how would you feel if the entire car industry were Saturn-ized (my dream situation)? No negotiation, just select your car by your budget and specifications wanted. I think the American people would breathe a collective sigh of relief!
Jason
Most dealerships are quite intent on selling cars right now, but its not really the end of the year, just the end of what has been an extremely slow month. I will tell you one thing, you're better off buying now than next week!
Good luck
Jason
Trailer with Brakes=2000#
Tongue Load=165#
For additional inf. email a fax # I will send
instructions...PS
YES, they are better in a number of ways. Saabs come with a 4yr/50k bumper to bumper warranty with 3 years of free scheduled maintenance. Saab, Audi, Volvo, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura DO have a higher level of overall refinement. And, all of these vehicles have greater "prestige." These factors place such vehicles in a higher class, and justify their higher price.
IF today's Passat only cost $10,000, then it would be an insanely terrific value and the aforementioned "snooty-snobby autos" would appear to be hopelessly overpriced indulgences. But, the fact is that the Passat is $25-30K--it is no bargain (that's a ton of dough!). If dealers ask for sticker, people will not be satisfied with what the Passat has to offer, especially when compared to the "entry-level luxury models"...and they will give their business to the competition.
Which is why you guys had better start slashing prices--may I suggest "50% off" ; )
As far as prestige goes, that's just perception. I have heard people say, "How can they charge this much for a Volkswagen?". Is their objection based on anything real, or is it just the nameplate on the front?
Jason
P.S. I think most dealers will wait to see if people don't buy the cars before adopting your 50% off idea...
in 27 years...8.7% increase year over year 99/00.
328,614 new cars in the US alone, up 12.7% from
1999 11 month total...surpassing total 12 month
sales for 1999 of 315,563.
Volkswagen continues to be America's Best Selling
European Car Brand...
40% off--but that's the best I can do...
This is one reason why I am considering buying a relatively inexpensive model from a luxury division (Saab, Volvo, Audi, etc.), instead of the top-of-the-line model from a middle-tier automaker (VW Passat). VW offers a mere two years of "we care about you and your service experience"--after that they tend to become a little "put-out." And just try to get an appointment on short notice...
If you want to get extreme...
A Ferrari 360? No discounts. Dealers sell at MSRP, $20,000 of markup, Market on the $160K or so car is about $30K over MSRP.
Or...
Let's look at a Lexus LS430 Ultra-Luxury Selection. Say it's only got the 17" Silver wheels and the Ecru Interior and it lists at $68,750 or so.
No discounts on these cars as a rule. Perhaps $1,000 if you shop like heck.
Now, let's compare that car to a BMW 740iL. A car that I can easily get $3,000+++ Discount on and it has smaller margins. It's a car without tons and tons of the safety and luxury features of the Lexus. The Lexus is also less money, comparably equipped, but with a discount, the 740iL becomes cheaper. Is it a better car? I don't think so. But you can get a better deal on it.
You can get a Better "deal" on an Infiniti Q45 than you can on just about anything else that's imported that competes with it. It's larger and cheaper than a 540i, E430, GS430, etc. It has the worst resale value of any imported Luxury car. Even with deep discounting to make it look like a steal, it will still cost a lot to own it. More than the BMW, Mercedes or Lexus.
Notice that Honda and VW don't offer huge incentives and rebates? Notice you also can;t get the same deal on a VW that you can on, say, a Regal or Intrigue or Sable? Notice that those cars have terrible resale value and that the Passat holds its' value better than anything else in its' class by a large margin?
My examples may have been extreme, but yes, you did get a response.
Bill
Your point about resale, however, is well-taken. In general, more expensive cars depreciate faster because they are "disposable" in a way that more practical vehicles are not (the rich cycle through autos lickity-split). I don't think, however, that any of the near-luxury cars I have mentioned suffer from horrendous resale value.
About your enthusiasm re: Passat resale values--can you substantiate this claim? At this point, it sounds like the kind of vague overstatement they teach you at dealer training. For instance, I find it difficult to believe that the Passat has a much better resale value than the Accord--especially after 4 or 5 years of depreciation. Most people who are primarily concerned with buying a reliable, high-resale car will opt for a Honda or a Toyota instead of a VW.
Any updates on the 01.5 Passat arrival times?
Jason
Hurry in to your local VW dealer before it's too late!!
Come on ffxvw, ask your boss when the new Passats are coming in!
Much as you'd like to think I'm simply a "product specialist" you're talking to a manager. Well, let's see.. A 3yr old Passat GLS 4cyl Automatic that was, what, $23K or so new is currently going to cost me, with low miles, about $15,000 or so in a good color. That's wholesale. I.E. If I decide to go buy one at auction.
$7,500 to own that car. Assuming you paid $500 back of list which seemed to be close to market on them back then.
That's about a 65% 3-yr residual. That's VERY strong.
An Accord EX that was about $22K when new will cost me about $12,500 or so at auction. That's about a 57% residual. Not bad.
$8,000 to own that car. Assuming you got $1,500 off, or pretty close to invoice. Say about $500 over (Im assuming about $2K is built into an Accord)
Now, that Oldsmobile Intrigue GLS that you got the $1,500 rebate on, even though it too listed at about $23K. That car I can buy for about $10,500.
Say you got $3,500 off of the intrigue (The best resale of any domestic in its class I believe btw)
It cost you $9,000 to own.
As we all know, the deepest discounts are generally on the domestics. Say the model I put up there was accurate of market conditions... Even though the Intrigue (Which is a very nice car) was the best deal, and that VW Dealer made a $2,500 or whatever profit on the Passat, which car, OVERALL, was the best deal???
Of course, the best deal would be to buy that Passat as cheap as possible. As any smart consumer should do.
And, to what I said about Luxury cars. That's the area of the market that I work in. And some Luxury cars have outstanding resale value, better than any mass-market car (The Lexus GS-Series is an outstanding example, but so is the BMW 5-Series, Mercedes E-Class, etc..)
Let's look at some with lousy resale:
Volvo S70
Infinitis, esp the Q45, perhaps that car has the lowest 3yr residual of anything with 4 doors.
Cadillacs
Lincolns
And I don't see our customers having trade cycles that are much different than the people who buy Toyotas across the street.
Oh, my earlier post was in reference to this point you made:
>The Passat is not worth MSRP.
>No car is--competition ensures this.
Actually, and I don't take it personally, I am of the opinion that you simply don't like dealers making a lot on you. Again, we all have our viewpoints.
Bill
Comparing resale value of a Passat to an Oldsmobile?! (Didn't GM just dump the brand?)
Comparing 3-YEAR (instead of 5-year) residuals as an indicator of overall value?!
Thinking that Passat buyers are cross-shopping with American cars?!
True competition for the Passat is Honda/Acura/Toyota/Lexus/Nissan on the one hand, and Audi/BMW/Volvo/Saab on the other. Most of VW's business, at least at this point in their RECOVERY, is from middle-tier Japanese and European cars. In this sense, your choices of examples are mostly beside the point.
Your best observation: "the best deal would be to buy the Passat as cheap as possible."
That's what I'm gonna do...unless I find a better deal.
Any help is appreciated.
As an example Snurple, in a typical month where we'd sell 100 VWs, we would sell 30 Passats. The distribution on these would be(typically):
10 4-cyl Automatics
5 4-cyl Manuals
2 6-Cyl Automatics
7 GLX 2 wheel drive
4 GLX 4-motion
2 Wagon
Until the new ones roll in, we have:
4 4-cyl Automatics
9 4-cyl Manuals
6 6-cyl Automatics
3 6-cyl Automatics
1 GLX 5-speed
1 GLX 2 Wheel Drive
1 GLX 4-motion
1 Wagon
My researching on the locate computer shows a similar distribution in dealers in my area. It sure doesn't sound like too damn rosy of a January and February!
Jason
Black
Fresco Green (kind of a Grey/Green)
Candy White
Mojave Beige Metallic
Pine Green (darker than current Green)
Silverstone Grey Metallic (???)
Blue Silver Metallic (???)
Indigo Blue
Reflex Silver Metallic (Brighter than current)
Colorado Red
Blue Anthracite
Ink Blue (Very Dark Navy Blue Color)
Jason
We were told late Feb. for release.
I have seen pictures of the new colors from the port in Boston.
BTW we sold our last 2 4motion wagons today!(must be the snow)
I am a manager. Which means that i frankly, know a lot more about the car biz than you ever will. Unlike most people here, you love to jump down the throats of dealers.
Irrespective.. I used the 3-year cycle for two reasons:
1) The majority of wholesale values on these cars that I found in volume were for 3-4 year old ones.
2) Most people, per data from the NADA, Trade Journals, Manufacturers, etc, seems to agree that most people are on a 3 year trade cycle on average.
If anything else, we take in, by far, more 97-98 model year trades than any other. This is also true of the guys I know who work at higher volume stores.
And, from the "Volkswagen Competitive Product Guide" that I have (A friend of mine now works at a local VW Store) there isn't much mention of the Lexus or Mercedes or BMWs...
More like Camry, Intrigue, Taurus, Sable, Accord, etc...
Bill
For example: You are using 3-year residuals to support your argument about costs of OWNERSHIP--but, as you know, the majority of people who BUY cars within this particular category, do not pay for their cars in 3 years and immediately turn around and sell them. A typical buying cycle is significantly longer than the "three-year cycle" you chose to invoke. (The 3-year trades you mention are primarily lease returns--and leasing is on a very sharp downturn.) The point is: Passat long-term reliability and resale value, perhaps after 4-5 years, is not its strong suit.
More importantly, as I said before, those dealers who ask MSRP for the 2001.5 Passat will lose many customers to the other makers in the same price category who regularly sell their cars in relation to invoice, signifcantly below MSRP. Just you wait and see...
Jason
P.S. I think the three-year on the Beetle has both of those beat anyway!!! :Þ
You're right, ffxvw, the last incarnation (pre '98) of the Passat is considered to be crappy. Passats are fighting their way into long-term credibility--and they haven't quite made it made it yet. Accords, on the other hand, have enjoyed year after year and generation after generation of both strong sales and a solid reputation for reliability. As a result, their resale values are not linked to body style in the way that the Passat's resale value is. Passats only have one generation of success under their belts--the 2001.5 will be their second successful generation. (Or perhaps this is only a "half-generation," since it is considered a "facelift.")
All of this is precisely the point: Unless and until the Passat has a better and longer track record of success and reliability, "3-year residuals" and "ownership" should not be used in the same sentence with reference to the Passat. The fact that the Passat bumper-to-bumper warranty is only 2/24 certainly doesn't help matters.
By and large, paying MSRP is the equivalent of "paying a premium." I find it hard to justify paying such a premium for a car that does not have an impeccable reputation...
>information" to support your conclusions. Do you whine everytime someone
>counters your sales pitch?
I'm not whining, I'm making a point as are you. And, explain what you mean by "questionable selection of information" I think that actual wholesale sale data, followed up by manufacturer market research as well as my own personal experiences from actually working in the car business. Do you whine every time someone disagrees with you?
> (The 3-year trades you mention are primarily lease returns--and leasing is on a very sharp > downturn.)
Says who? I'm not seeing it. I'd love to see an article on this though.
And about 50% of them were lease returns. And, yes, I can tell whether a car sold at auction was a lease return or not
Also, as you and ffxvw said, I did not want to use data on the 1997 and older Passats. Those were always weak cars and that's not a car that would accurately illustrate my point.
What I was trying to say was "OK, Maybe you can't, as a rule, get the same deal on a Passat as you can on some similar cars, but when you look at the big picture, even if you have to pay list for a Passat (which I dont think you should) or if the discounts on the Passat are much smaller than on the competition, the car still seems to cost the least to own of any of its' competitors." Also, that being said, it's a great car!
Like someone posted in another forum, you can't buy Lexus RX300s for under invoice, but you can buy Jeeps for thousands under invoice. (Grand CHerokee Limited and RXs are priced pretty close)
But look at how a Jeep depreciates. And look at how a Lexus RX holds its' value. I tend to go to Lexus a lot simply because that's the lineup that I know the best.
So that's my point that I was trying to make. It's important to look at the overall numbers when you buy a car.
And, as Jason points out, a Beetle is a dirt cheap car to own!
Bill
On Leasing: From 12/15 New York Times article "Favorable Lease Deals May be Fading Fast":
"David Littmann, chief economist at Comerica Bank, predicted that those banks' retreat, plus auto companies' growing skittishness, would make leasing less popular. He said he expected the leasing business, which has hovered around 30 percent of the market for five years, to drop as low as 18 percent next year." [1999--33%, 2000--29%]
On the Passat--while it may be a good car, it is not a car with a stellar long-term reputation. In any case, whatever minor savings may be had from a supposed solid resale value must always be weighed against any possible higher initial cost. I am not convinced that your argument is a strong one to use when selling Passats--Honda (and Lexus) can use this argument, VW cannot, at least not yet.
has awarded the VW Passat with the fore mententioned *All Star* award. February 2001 issue
Page 85...
$111 misc. registration fees and 6% New Jersey tax. Dealer's name is Jay Rutenberg. He had 5 cars to choose from. I bought dark green with black leather interior Beautiful service, beautiful car - piece of art. Thank you!!!
I'd also be interested in seeing a picture of the new Passat in that color...
Jason
The Dax (Dow Jones equivalent) plunged more than 50 points today on renewed fears of an auto sales slump in the German and American markets--DaimlerChrysler, Bay Mot Werke (BMW), and Volkswagen AG were all down in heavy trading.
This may have some effect on the topic of this forum...
refer to the above at VWVORETEX.COM
As stated before, NPR is reporting that the German stock market is taking a beating, because several leading auto industry stocks (VW among them) are taking a beating. Why? Because investors are concerned about German and American auto sales. Everyone knows that the worldwide stock market is especially volatile nowadays, but this latest downturn does not bode well for the German auto industry in the coming year.
As you mention, vwvortex is reporting that a VW spokeman at a VW press conference noted that VW's November 2000 numbers were up 8.7% over last year's November numbers. Basically, VW is citing the US sales numbers from one month to present a positive face at the end of 2000. The response of the German stock market at the beginning of the 2001 is not so positive...
[I see you corrected your post after actually checking your Fax on the Dax
are for the year; not November...It is important to read the ENTIRE piece.
The point is this: It is being reported by reputable financial sources that the German auto industry is is some kind of trouble. This is contributing to the overall decline of the German stock market, in the same way that poor earnings reports (or an indication of forthcoming poor earning reports) from an AT&T or an Intel will cause a decline across the New York exchange. When Volkwagen, BMW, and Mercedes stock goes down, even slightly, the market tends to shift in response. This is what happened yesterday and today. Those of us interested in such financial minutiae will see what tomorrow brings...
I report this Business News in an effort to balance out your citation (as a dealer) of press releases from Volkwagen USA.
[I can't imagine that VW would spin their facts
Of course, it certainly appears as though the U.S. automotive market is headed for a slow down. However, I personally believe that the brunt of the sales declines with be felt by the traditional Big 3 domestic automakers, GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Both General Motors and Chrysler recently announced significant cuts in their scheduled first quarter 2001 vehicle production. You can't sell what you don't make, so I expect their sales to be off significantly in Q1.
I have a feeling that the major European automakers, like Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volkswagen, will enjoy solid first quarters. Of course, they will have to sell a tremendous number of vehicles to post gains versus 2000's extremely strong sales figures.
Car_Man
Host Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
My point, which I think builds on yours, is that the general sentiment heading into the new year is that the worldwide economy is on the brink of...."something bad." This makes people hesitate to buy cars. The U.S. majors, which have already seen lackluster sales, will suffer more than the Euros. But, all automakers will see declines if there is this fear of a continued downtrend.
Then, when you couple this with a drastic reduction in projected lease rates (see my #385 above)--meaning people will be purchasing and holding longer--I think you will see an even greater downtrend a few years out. At that point, instead of people turning in leased vehicles for another lease (in that endless, every 3-year lease treadmill), people will keep the cars they have purchased for a few more years, cutting into the turnover. The auto industry just may be in for a rough few years...
For those curious about the German stock market: Today the DAX shot up, virtually erasing the losses of the last two days. BUT, all of the major German auto stocks (VW, BMW, and DaimlerChrysler) were still down slightly, which means that all of the gains came in other sectors. There IS an overall concern about a decline in sales for these brands in their two biggest markets: Germany and the U.S.
Good to hear from you Car_man--there is a "god"!
3B24SR are 5 Speeds Passat Sedans. These prices
basically reflect an excess inventory and lack
of physical space. The other ads are either *one
at this Price* or GL models and most probably are
caused by the same reasons. If you want a 5 Speed
then take advantage!!!!!